God, through Christ, has indeed healed amputees. "And great multitudes came to Him having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, MAIMED, and many others and cast them down at Jesus' feet; AND HE HEALED THEM: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, THE MAIMED TO BE WHOLE, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel." Matthew 15:30-31

Now, herein lays the problem. 1) No matter what miracle is performed, raising someone from the dead, healing the maimed, giving sight to the blind, etc. those who choose to not believe will simply not believe. At another time in the Bible we find unbelievers.
"But though he had done many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him." John 12:37

You can't make someone believe in God and you can't make someone believe a miracle just occurred even though they saw it with their own eyes. God brings miracles to us everyday and yet the scoffers call it luck, coincidence or natural causes.

2) If God healed one amputee to "prove Himself" and there was no doubt whatsoever that it was from God, the atheists and non believers would next be wailing, "If God is so good why won't he won't heal all the amputees?" So let's say God heals all the amputees in the world then the atheists and unbelievers would wail, "God is unfair. If God is all powerful, why doesn't He heal all the Cancer victims in the world, or all the AIDS victims in the world or all the cripple people in the world?" It's really a no win situation with God because healing people does not make an unbeliever, a believer. You see, with skeptics and atheists, there can be no single defining miracle."

The question presumes EITHER to know WHY God heals some and not others (amputees in this case) OR that God's rationale is irrelevant. Here's a possibility...What if God only chooses to work miracles that COULD be chalked up to coincidence (however unlikely such coincidences are) and does NOT choose to perform miracles that would leave absolutely NO doubt as to His existence? Why would God do this? To call us to FAITH. The book of Hebrews makes clear that "without faith, it is impossible to please [God]." If God started regenerating limbs on amputees, it's clear that our conception and understanding of "faith" would be significantly altered.

Now, it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some have chosen to see it as the final proof of the NON-existence of God. The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED" "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"First off: I don't believe the bible"

Of course you don't. The very SIN that you deny exists is what keeps you from believing the Bible. SIN is rebellion against God and your entire life is consumed by living in rebellion to God. Your entire life is nothing but SIN.
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"I do not believe there was a historical jesus because there is no evidence outside the bible of his existence"

Your theological ignorance is showing again. The Quran, which is diametrically opposed to Christianity, validates the life of Christ. How many references do you need before you will open your closed mind?
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"it goes without saying that I do not believe in sin"

How convenient for you. If you just deny the existence of sin, perhaps it will go away. NOT! YOU will have to stand before Christ on Judgment Day and account for everything you have said, thought and done. Sticking your head in the sand will not make it go away.
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"You cherry pick passages from the bible that say you only need faith. here are some that say works get you into heaven: Psalm 62:12, Proverbs 10:16, Jeremiah 17:10, Ezekiel 18:27, Matthew 5:20, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 19:17, Matthew 25:41-46, Luke 10:26-28, John 5:29, Romans 2:6, 13, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Corinthians 11:15, Philippians 2:12, James 2:14, James 2:17, James 2:21-25, 1 Peter 1:17, Revelation 2:23, Revelation 20:12-13, Revelation 22:14"

WORKS comes as a natural progression to the Christian life. Our changed lives makes us want to help others. Not out of necessity to get to heaven but out of love for our fellow man. WORKS without Salvation means nothing to God.
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"I require evidence when someone claims that they raised the dead and I do not see what the deal is with gods refusal to give evidence."

Once again, the evidence is all around you. I SEE IT. You simply deny it is evidence. You can deny it to me but your excuses will not fly on Judgment Day.
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"When I think of the Abrahamic God, these words come to mind to describe him:
-muderous, genocidal, racist, bigoted, homophobic, obsessive, petty, ruthless, tyrannical, unjust, bloodlusting, unreasonable, illogical, phsycotic control freak."

How can you possibly understand God when you don't believe in God. You see only what you want to see.
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"I see more of a sacrifice from judas who is spending eternity in hell for being a pawn in the whole debacle."

Judas made HIS CHOICES just like YOU are making your choices. It's a cop out to blame God for the choices we all make in our own lives. You must be a DEMOCRAT.

That whole reply was so thick with irony I couldn't stop laughing. Tell him to address all of your points before you reply any further. It is intellectually dishonest, not to mention annoying as fuck, to ignore your interlocutor's points.

 

Edit: You cannot touch someone this deluded, so don't get too frustrated. You can use this person as a good example to others who are questioning. Make relevant, concise points and let the ignorance and hubris he spews do all the work for you.

Original Message:

> "You cherry pick passages from the bible that say you only need faith. here are some that say w...

so you did not have the natural decency to help people, give money to the poor or attempt to make society a better place until you found religion? by your reasoning, a scientist who cures disease, travels 3rd world countries helping the sick and poor and helps improve the quality of life for thousands of people but doesn't believe in the christian god is sining and will go to hell. then we have a man who beats his wife, beats his children and forces his wife to constantly be bearing children for many years until she finally dies, but the man prays for forgiveness even though he will still beat his wife and kids will get into heaven.

if I am to follow the bible, I may as well take the good with the bad then. first I think I'll go rape a woman so she has to marry me Deuteronomy 22:28-29, then beat her for no obeying me, beat my children Proverbs 19:18 22:15 23:13-14 and sell my daughters into slavery Exodus 21:7.

your repetitions of judgment day are pointless. does it scare you if a Muslim says that allah will roast you alive for all eternity?

"How can you possibly understand God when you don't believe in God. You see only what you want to see."
this is a baseless assumption. I used to be a christian so your "no true Scotsman" fails. as for seeing what I only want to see, you are projecting your insecurities onto me. you have a confirmation bias when it comes to supposed miracles, such as someone surviving a car crash, when 4 other people died "it was a miracle he survived". no mention of the 4 other people who died. "we prayed for a diagnosis and treatment for her cancer and god came through for us" where god had nothing to do with it, it was the doctors and modern medicine that cured the woman of cancer.
your earlier claim of my lack of critical thinking skills was also a projection. you will demand absolute 100% proof for evolution and the like but when it comes to the bible mentioning something like balaams donkey talking or seemingly impossible feats and such that defy the laws of nature from within the bible, you believe it because and do not critically examine ANY of your religious beliefs.

you are simply asserting things without backing them up and that does not cut it in the least with me. as I said, I demand evidence of such extraordinary claims. BTW what has my political stance got to do wit anything, although I do not have a political stance so that was another failed assumption.

I'm happy you were able to use some of my writing in your response.  I think you're spot on in assessing this guy.  He's not going to change his mind, but you're doing a good job responding to him, and like you say, any practice helps.

Just a suggestion in protocol:  I don't mind that you used my post in your response.  You're free to use anything I've written if it will help in arguing with a theist.  However, I'd suggest that it's a good idea to always reference things you quote.  It's not that I'm going to come after you for plagiarism... it's because if you don't, then a theist could accuse you of being dishonest and claiming other people's work as your own.  Once they've decided that you're dishonest, they'll ignore everything you say from then on.  Notice how quickly we ignore theists who cut and paste from other websites?

In general, if you quote more than a few words (I don't know what the internet law is, exactly) you ought to cite your source.  The simplest way is just to put the url in parentheses after the quote (www.rationalresponders.com/blahblahblah)

Not only will you keep the legal high ground, you'll take away a chance for him to make a fallacious argument.

Keep up the great work!

"I used to be a christian"

What makes you think you were a Christian?
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"as for seeing what I only want to see, you are projecting your insecurities onto me."

The Christian HAS NO insecurities. We know where we are going when we die and we know Christ has the final say of what happens in the whole world so there is no reason to be insecure about anything.
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"you have a confirmation bias when it comes to supposed miracles"

Miracles happen everyday. You live in darkness so you can not see them. When you walk into the light, miracles become very clear.
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"you will demand absolute 100% proof for evolution"

Not really. There is no such thing as evolution (man made concept in rebellion to God) so I don't really need proof.

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"I demand evidence of such extraordinary claims."

Good luck. You are not important enough to God that He should have to prove anything to you. Do you think Obama will call you and ask you what he should do about his campaign?

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"so you did not have the natural decency to help people, give money to the poor or attempt to make society a better place until you found religion?"

You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. All I was concerned about was how much money I could make and how much fun I could provide myself. Screw the poor and society. I sounded like a pretty selfish prick didn't I? The world is full of people just like I was.
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"by your reasoning, a scientist who cures disease, travels 3rd world countries helping the sick and poor and helps improve the quality of life for thousands of people but doesn't believe in the christian god is sining and will go to hell. then we have a man who beats his wife, beats his children and forces his wife to constantly be bearing children for many years until she finally dies, but the man prays for forgiveness even though he will still beat his wife and kids will get into heaven."

YOU ARE CORRECT AGAIN. The man that seeks repentance for the sin in his life will be forgiven no matter how bad he was. The man who does not feel he needs Salvation because he is a "good person" will find himself on the wrong side of heaven on Judgment Day. The perfect example is that the day Christ was crucified, there were two thieves also crucified with him. The one on his left mocked Christ. The one on his right asked for forgiveness and CHRIST FORGAVE HIM. What other figure in history has ever had the ability to forgive someone of all their sins?
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"if I am to follow the bible, I may as well take the good with the bad then. first I think I'll go rape a woman so she has to marry me Deuteronomy 22:28-29, then beat her for no obeying me, beat my children Proverbs 19:18 22:15 23:13-14 and sell my daughters into slavery Exodus 21:7."

You are showing your Biblical ignorance again. What you are referring to is the Old Testament Mosaic Laws. There were 613 of them. They were given by God to Moses for the 'JEWS ONLY' over 3000 years ago. They were not for the gentiles (you and I), nor the Romans, nor the Greeks, JUST THE JEWS. Lastly, when Christ died on the cross for your sins, a New Covenant was established between God and man. Under this New Covenant, man is no longer subject to the Mosaic Laws of the Old Testament.

"does it scare you if a Muslim says that allah will roast you alive for all eternity?"

1)Mohammad NEVER claimed to be the Son of God. Christ did.
2)Mohammad NEVER healed the sick or brought someone back from the dead. Christ did.
3)Mohammad NEVER claimed to be able to forgive man of his sin. Christ did.
4)Mohammad was not perfect. Christ was.
5)Mohammad was poisoned by one of his many wives. Christ was crucified for your sin.
6)Mohammad is still in his tomb, Christ defeated death and is risen.

Currently debating with VenomFang on Youtube, he's a freaking moron, contradictions within lines of each other.

I believe there is a quote where jesus says that he not only did not come to repeal mosaic law, he came to ENFORCE it.

"I believe there is a quote where Jesus says that he not only did not come to repeal mosaic law, he came to ENFORCE it."

Correct! I don't remember where it is, I'll have to look it up again, but it goes something like "... the old laws must not be forgotten and must continue to be obeyed..."

Typical Born Again xitian. They always say the Old Testament no longer applies. It's actually really fun to watch a fundamentalist Baptist and a Born Again go at each others throats concerning the OT. Talk about heated and retarded, and they believe in the same God and the same Jesus. Never laughed so hard, "love thy neighbor" my ass!

I repented many times for the little that I had ”done wrong” although I should have known you would attempt to rationalize away my former christendom.

 

Your statement of the law ending when jesus died and was risen is your interpretation. The “ till all be fulfilled” could just as easily mean that the laws apply until the very end of the rapture, jesus' second coming or what have you. You do have good points and I concede that the new testament does abolish the law in some parts but this seems a case of the new testament contradicting the old testament: Psalm 119:151-2, 1 Chronicles 16:15, Leviticus 23:14,21,31 show that the OT covenant/law are to last for all time. I recall a passage that said something along the lines of “anyone who tries to abolish the law is a false prophet” but I have no evidence for it so it can be dismissed until (or if) I find the required evidence.

 

The argument from popularity “that the majority believe” is a fallacious argument and speaks nothing of the truth. The majority of people could believe that Thor is making lightning/thunder yet it doesn't change the fact that lightning is cause by positive and negative charges in the atmosphere gathering and releasing in a brilliant flash of energy. By the ad populum fallacy, christianity would be invalidated because the majority of people do not believe it, so you see how it does not work.

 

“Once again, you simply DENY the TRUTH in a feeble attempt to make it all go away. IT WILL NOT. ”

You did not address my argument. Once again you assert that this is the truth without the required evidence or anything other than your conjecture. This again can be flipped back on your denial of evolution and is a baseless claim anyway. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

I have not and never did state with absolute certainty the position that there is no god. I am an agnostic atheist, meaning that I currently hold no belief in a god or gods which could be subject to change given sufficient evidence that one or more exists. Despite what you may have been told, this is my position and the position of the majority of atheists.

 

“You are obviously listening to very intelligent people BUT WHOM possess NO WISDOM. Wisdom comes from God only.”

 

This again is a meaningless statement of your own conjecture. You leave the term “wisdom” ambiguous and undefined, therefore it is meaningless. Until it has it has substance, it will be ignored and dismissed.

 

The Teleological Argument (argument from design) has several holes in it. First: since it states that everything that looks designed is designed is assuming the conclusion in the premise AKA begging the question. It also employs special pleading stating that everything that exists needs a creator while simultaneously stating that god needs no creator. If god is exempt from the rules then I see no reason why the universe, more specifically, the big bang should adhere to them. As a side note, I, along with the scientists who believe the big bang do not state that it was an explosion ex nihilo (out of nothing), we believe that the matter/energy of the universe existed in a previous state before the big bang although it cannot be known exactly what it existed as before the big bang because at the very moment of expansion/explosion, time was “created” if you will.

No one who who knows what evolution is, understand it and how it works, ever claims that it is random and pure chance. The ones who do claim this are making a “strawman” ( a parodied or otherwise misrepresentation of an argument for the purpose of disproving said misrepresentation in an attempt to disprove the original argument or concept). This also brings up a side point: when we know that something cannot come from nothing, then a question appears in my mind “then what did god create the universe from” where the only answer I have heard is “nothing”, again with special pleading and any other answers are ad hoc.

Answer to the probability of life occurring: http://youtube.com/watch?v=p3nvH6gfrTc

demonstrating that life requiring a designer is a flawed concept: http://youtube.com/watch?v=xzDYVFa1TR0

bad design: http://youtube.com/watch?v=p_nqySMvkcw

'You leave the term "wisdom" ambiguous and undefined, therefore it is meaningless. Until it has it has substance, it will be ignored and dismissed."

WISDOM is having gained knowledge, experience, and intuitive understanding, along with a capacity to apply these well. It is the judicious application of knowledge. Even a child can have wisdom without knowledge. copy and paste akiane Kramarik in your youtube search bar to understand wisdom.

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"we believe that the matter/energy of the universe existed in a previous state before the big bang although it cannot be known exactly what it existed as before the big bang because at the very moment of expansion/explosion, time was "created" if you will."

So what you are saying is that YOU HAVE NO PROOF, it is a BELIEF and that belief is based on FAITH that you are correct...and yet you ridicule the Christian for their FAITH and Beliefs. First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

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"No one who knows what evolution is, understand it and how it works, ever claims that it is random and pure chance."

"I COULD PROVE GOD STATISTICALLY. Take the human body alone. The chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity."
George Gallup, statistician
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"when we know that something cannot come from nothing, then a question appears in my mind "then what did god create the universe from" where the only answer I have heard is "nothing", again with special pleading and any other answers are ad hoc."

To one who examines the evidence, there can be no doubt that God exists. Every building has a builder. Every beautiful garden has a gardener. Every painting has a painter. Everything made has a maker. The fact of the existence of the Creator is axiomatic (self evident) .That's why the Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God." (Psalms 14:1) The professing atheist denies the common sense given to him by God, and defends his beliefs by thinking that the question, "Who made God?" can't be answered. This, he thinks, gives him license to deny the existence of God.
The question of "Who made God" can be answered by simply looking at space and asking," Does space have an end?" Obviously, it doesn't. If there is a brick wall with "The End" written on it, the question arises, "What is behind the brick wall?" We have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies to God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.
The Bible also informs us that time is a dimension that GOD created, into which man was subjected. It even tells us that one day, time, for ALL of us will no longer exist. That will be called "eternity." God himself dwells outside of the dimension he created.
(2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2). He dwells in eternity and is not subject to time. God can move through time as a man flips through a history book. Because we live within the dimension of time, logic and reason demand that everything must have a beginning and an end. We can understand the concept of space having no beginning and end—by faith.

 

I repented many times for the little that I had "done wrong" although I should have known you would attempt to rationalize away my former christendom.

13 SIGNS OF A TRUE CONVERT.

1)Admits he/she is a sinner.
2)They live a life of obedience by keeping God's commands more than he breaks them.
3)Does not harbor hatred for his brother but displays forgiveness.
4)Does not "love" this world nor the things of this world.
5)Proclaims Jesus Christ as the Son of God.
6)Looks forward to the return of the Lord.
7)Has a desire to serve other Christians.
8)Loves being with and fellowshipping with other believers.
9)Rejects false teaching.
10)Remains in the truth and preservers in the faith.
11)It shows up at home. Your husband/wife/children see a change in you and they will desire what you have.
12)Made witnesses of them. They will want to share with others. Tracts, etc.
13)It stirred their hearts. They now show LOVE, JOY, COMPASSION, and GRATITUDE
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"You do have good points and I concede that the new testament does abolish the law in some parts but this seems a case of the new testament contradicting the old testament"

Contradictions don't exist in reality because reality simply is as it is and does not contradict itself. Only our evaluations of reality can contradict each other. If you think you have found a contradiction, then check your premises. Either you're mistaken about it being a contradiction or one of the contradicting concepts has been improperly formed. If the content of your knowledge contains contradictions, then some of your knowledge is in error. Because in order to be successful in reality one must know reality, success requires correct knowledge.
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"The argument from popularity "that the majority believe" is a fallacious argument and speaks nothing of the truth.By the ad populum fallacy, christianity would be invalidated because the majority of people do not believe it, so you see how it does not work.
"

YOU ARE CORRECT because the Bible makes it clear that in the last days Christians will be the minority and evil will permeate every aspect of life.
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power." 2 Timothy 3:1
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"Once again you assert that this is the truth without the required evidence or anything other than your conjecture."

What evidence do you seek? If you can tell me what you seek perhaps I can help you find it.

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I am an agnostic atheist, meaning that I currently hold no belief in a god or gods which could be subject to change given sufficient evidence that one or more exists.

Once again, EXACTLY what evidence would you like to see. Please be specific if you want real evidence.

“How convenient for you. If you just deny the existence of sin, perhaps it will go away.” “Mohammad NEVER ...” (perhaps mohammed will just go away) “You see only what you want to see.” “the evidence is all around you. I SEE IT.” “Sticking your head in the sand will not make it go away.” “There is no such thing as evolution”

“Every building has a builder. Every beautiful garden has a gardener. Every painting has a painter. Everything made has a maker.”

You did not watch the links I gave. You are again ignoring what has already been debunked through the links I sent.

 

“The question of "Who made God" can be answered by simply looking at space and asking," Does space have an end?" Obviously, it doesn't”

and what is space made of? space does not exist.

 

We have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end.

No. it is a logical conclusion that space needs no beginning or end because it doesn't exist

 

So what you are saying is that YOU HAVE NO PROOF, it is a BELIEF and that belief is based on FAITH that you are correct.

 

Wrong. Faith is the belief in something without evidence or despite evidence to the contrary. Evidence of the big bang: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html#evidence

 

Your statement of wisdom is still meaningless because you will simply state that wisdom only comes from god because god says so. 'the bible is true because it is the word of god. I know its the word of god cause it says so in the bible'. Circular reasoning much?

 so the bible says that christians will be a minority and that people will People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. This is simply stating the obvious, besides, since when has the population of the planet NOT been like that?You know what else the bible says?Bats are birds. Insects have 4 legs. The world rests on 4 pillars and does not move. Unicorns existed. Rabbits “chew their cud”. giants existed. eagles carry their young on their wings. The value of pi is exactly 3. Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. 7:14-15 . the moon produces its own light. Natural disasters are caused by, and are a sign of, God's wrath (apparently have nothing to do with weather patterns or tectonic plates moving).failed prophesies:God promises Abram's descendants the land of Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates. But according to Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13 God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) Josiah died from an arrow wound in battle, not "in peace" as is promised in 2 Kg.22:20. 35:23 . Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. Isaiah 13:21-22 (dragons and satyrs do not exist)well it looks like a lot of false prophesies in the bible AND god does not keep his word. Besides that, the propheses in the bible are vague and can easily be manipulated to mean what ever you want (like Nostradamus' prophecy of the two great brothers falling used as a prophesy of 9/11)

"No one who knows what evolution is, understand it and how it works, ever claims that it is random and pure chance."
"I COULD PROVE GOD STATISTICALLY. Take the human body alone. The chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity."

did you even READ WHAT I WROTE? This is a prime example of your dishonesty. This is conveniently ignoring my earlier points of evolution NOT BEING RANDOM.”Sticking your head in the sand will not make it go away.” again watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AexPuBei-Hk

you claim complexity of our planet but we are on one planet of how many in the universe? There are trillions of planets and to say that earth was built for us ignores the fat that the inhabitable proportion of earth for humans is only a small percentage given that water covers 2/3 of earth surface, then theres deserts, frozen land mountains, the arctic &antarctic where nature is at the least, hostile.

most places in the universe will kill life instantly

 

“How can you possibly understand God when you don't believe in God.” How can you possibly understand evolution when you don't believe in evolution. That is called a FAIL. That also ignores the FACT that I was a christian, so again you are burying your head in the sand so these things might go away. There is no need to believe in something first to be able to understand it. Do you need to believe in nanotechnology to understand it? How about the use of graphics processing units to simulate protein folding in order to combat disease to understand it.

 

I already know what a contradiction is:

 

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

From the mouth of jesus himself, according to the bible. Notice the part that says “until heaven and earth disappear”. That is in direct contradiction to paul saying the law no longer applies. Who do you believe? Paul or jesus?

 

Again you try to rationalize away my former christendom so you don't have to realize that someone who WAS a christian REALLY DID stop believing. I was brought up christian and admitted that I was a sinner, and as I said I DID ALL THE REST OF IT, but you aren't going to believe me and will continually pull out other requirements EVEN THOUGH you only need faith in jesus as THE BIBLE SAYS.

 

You obviously do not understand my arguments. I assume the position that god does exist for the premise and then show why it is wrong to assume that he does exist or does what you say he does.

 

Points that you ignore and that still stand:

god does not heal amputees because he can't (apparently he did in the bible according to you, so why did he change his mind?)

there are no contemporary accounts of jesus.

Sin is meaningless: Most theists will say that sin is anything that is contrary to the will of god.  This is wrong, because god is omnipotent.  Therefore, anything that happens is a result of him making it happen.

There was no sacrifice by jesus. 3 days in hell is by no means a sacrifice for what he gained according to the bible.

You have not provided any actual evidence that the bible is true any more than any other holy text.

Yahweh, as described in the bible is a psychopath.

The old testament laws still apply.

“god's” unconditional love is very much conditional.

You believe ridiculous things because they are in the bible, yet deny things that have an immense base of evidence behind them because they are contradictory to your preconceived world view.

You are hypocritical to an extreme level, claiming that I am burying my head in the sand, that I am closed minded and lack critical thinking skills.

You have a confirmation bias when it comes to things you think are miracles when they have natural explanations.

If god were to exist, he is damning people to hell for his own refusal to not provide sufficient evidence and is even sending good men (the doctor in the parable) to hell while sending violent abusers to heaven (the husband in the parable).

 

this is where I am ending contact with you. You obviously have no intention to actually listen to what I am saying and the points I make. I doubt you read even a quarter of what I linked to. I would put good money on the bet that you are not even willing to consider that there is no god, how very open minded of you. You continually ignore what I have refuted and continue to issue the same refuted points. all you have is “I don't know, so 'goddidit', I don't believe that cause it contradicts my views, x is too complex so it couldn't have come up by itself despite my lack on knowledge in regards to evolution, abiogenesis and cosmology. You are dishonest both in general and intellectually. I will have no further contact with you. All attempts at contact will be ignored and any harassment will be dealt with in kind.

 

"Again you try to rationalize away my former christendom so you don't have to realize that someone who WAS a christian REALLY DID stop believing. I was brought up christian and admitted that I was a sinner, and as I said I DID ALL THE REST OF IT, but you aren't going to believe me and will continually pull out other requirements EVEN THOUGH you only need faith in jesus as THE BIBLE SAYS."

2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us that If ANY MAN be in Christ, he is a new creature. Now it's obvious that you are not a new creature so I don't understand how you can claim to being a Christian.

Luke 13:3 tells us that Salvation is by FAITH alone in Jesus Christ...and followed by Repentance(a turning away from sin). You have not turned from sin, you have embraced it so I don't understand how you could have ever been a Christian.
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"Points that you ignore and that still stand:
god does not heal amputees because he can't (apparently he did in the bible according to you, so why did he change his mind?"

Now, herein lays the problem. 1) No matter what miracle is performed, raising someone from the dead, healing the maimed, giving sight to the blind, etc. those who choose to not believe will simply not believe. At another time in the Bible we find unbelievers.
"But though he had done many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him." John 12:37

You can't make someone believe in God and you can't make someone believe a miracle just occurred even though they saw it with their own eyes. God brings miracles to us everyday and yet the scoffers call it luck, coincidence or natural causes.

2) If God healed one amputee to "prove Himself" and there was no doubt whatsoever that it was from God, the atheists and non believers would next be wailing, "If God is so good why won't he won't heal all the amputees?" So let's say God heals all the amputees in the world then the atheists and unbelievers would wail, "God is unfair. If God is all powerful, why doesn't He heal all the Cancer victims in the world, or all the AIDS victims in the world or all the cripple people in the world?" It's really a no win situation with God because VISUAL MIRACLES do not make an unbeliever, a believer. You see, with skeptics and atheists, there can be no single defining miracle.

God's refusal to heal an amputee does not speak to God's reality or existence. You can not immediately jump from the premise that God heals some (a faith-based assumption) and not others (in this case, amputees) and therefore God doesn't exist. This is faulty reasoning, and anyone with any appreciation of "critical thinking" should see this.

The question presumes EITHER to know WHY God heals some and not others (amputees in this case) OR that God's rationale is irrelevant. Here's a possibility...What if God only chooses to work miracles that COULD be chalked up to coincidence (however unlikely such coincidences are) and does NOT choose to perform miracles that would leave absolutely NO doubt as to His existence? Why would God do this? To call us to FAITH. The book of Hebrews makes clear that "without faith, it is impossible to please [God]." If God started regenerating limbs on amputees, it's clear that our conception and understanding of "faith" would be significantly altered.

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"there are no contemporary accounts of jesus."

Jesus was just a simple carpenter for 30 years. He only brought us God's word for 3 years before He was crucified. Despite that fact, The Quran which is diametrically opposed to Christianity, validates the life of Christ.

"Sin is meaningless: Most theists will say that sin is anything that is contrary to the will of god. This is wrong, because god is omnipotent. Therefore, anything that happens is a result of him making it happen."

Please don't argue that God is responsible for things if you don't believe He exists. It makes you all your arguments appear "SILLY" and uneducated. Try to stick to one side or the other.
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"You have not provided any actual evidence that the bible is true any more than any other holy text."

If the Bible IS NOT God's word and is NOT true, then logically, the Bible "is" filled with at least 1500 lies where God claims this is His Word. Could a book with so many lies cause BILLIONS of people including avowed atheist LEE STROBEL or Dr. Anthony Flew, to turn from their sins -- including the sin of lying? Why would a book so wrong be banned by over 36 Islamic and atheistic nations if these people have nothing to fear from a book of lies? The Koran is not banned in any country. That's not logical.
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"Yahweh, as described in the bible is a psychopath."

2 Corinthians 2:14 applies to you.

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"If god were to exist, he is damning people to hell for his own refusal to not provide sufficient evidence and is even sending good men (the doctor in the parable) to hell while sending violent abusers to heaven (the husband in the parable)."

The EVIDENCE is obvious. Romans 1:18-22

"I already know what a contradiction is: Matthew 5:17-20"

In the broad sweep of Biblical history, the covenant of the Law is analogous to an egg, and the covenant of grace is analogous to a chick hatched from it. After the egg hatches, the time for sitting on the egg is over. Jesus did not come to destroy the egg; He came to hatch the egg.

The beginning of the end of the incubation-period occurred when Jesus began His ministry and was baptized by John the Baptist. This does not mean that the Law disappeared as the new covenant began to be enacted. It means that when John the Baptist and Jesus were preaching about the kingdom of God, there were at that point more than one way to get right with God. The covenant with Israel was still in force -- every bit of it -- but through John and Jesus, God was introducing a new covenant which would be implemented directly on a personal level.

Another analogy: a student goes to school. He lives according to the rules in the Student Handbook. Then he graduates. After that point, the Student Handbook's applicability to the graduate is nil except for the material in the Student Handbook that overlaps the law of the land. Similarly, Israel had lived under the Law, the old covenant, but Jesus introduced the new covenant of grace, under which each individual learns some law, but is purified and forgiven and cleansed in God's sight by grace, not by law-keeping. But there was a brief period -- sort of like the period between the last day of school and the day of the graduation-ceremony -- in which both covenants co-existed. It's during that period that Jesus maintained that the Law should be kept in its entirety.

There's an important phrase at the end of Matthew 5:18 "till all be fulfilled." This is pretty important, because it indicates the historical setting of the saying -- which profoundly influenced how the early church understood and applied this passage. The idea is that /at that time/ -- that is, during Jesus' ministry -- Jesus affirmed that the Law, as a covenant between God and Israel, was still in place, and would continue to be in place in every respect "until all is fulfilled." As the covenant of grace was being introduced during the ministry of Christ; there was a period of overlap between the era of the Law (as a covenant between God and Israel as a whole) and the era of the new covenant (between God and individual penitents).

The first part of Luke 16:16 is notable for its lack of a verb; the idea that should be harvested from the text is not merely that the Law and the Prophets existed until John, but that the Law and the Prophets were *the* covenant about which one should be concerned until John. A similar construction may be found in John 7:39 (ignore the italicized word "given" in the KJV, which the translators inserted), where John comments, "For the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified." The idea is not that God's Spirit did not yet /exist/ -- God's Spirit was present in Genesis 1 and is mentioned oodles of times in the Old Testament -- but that the Spirit did not, at that time, operate as He was to operate later, after Jesus was glorified. Similarly, in Luke 16:16, it's the Law's mode of operation, not its existence, that is in view.

And now the foreground:

Matthew 5:18 means that the covenant of the Law would be in force until everything was fulfilled and the Law had served its primary purpose. This was done when Jesus rose again. Luke 16:16 means that the Law was the only covenant in force until the days of John the Baptist. (Technically, one should say that the Law was the /paramount/ covenant in force until the days of John the Baptist, since God was still relating to non-Jews on the basis of preceding dispensations, but that's another subject.) There's no discord between these two statements, because of the existence of a short overlapping period when the kingdom of God was proclaimed by John and by Jesus.

In Romans 7:4-6 and Ephesians 2:15, and elsewhere (Galatians 5:18, for instance), Paul does not exactly teach that Christians are free to completely disregard the Old Testament laws. He teaches that Christians are completely released from the covenant of the Law, because they have entered the covenant of grace. This distinction may seem like a quibble, but I think it is important to notice because there are various commandments in the Law which are reiterated under the new covenant -- various responsibilities which are incumbent upon people under either covenant.

"We have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end.
No. it is a logical conclusion that space needs no beginning or end because it doesn't exist"

If SPACE does not exist, then what is your definition of space?
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"Your statement of wisdom is still meaningless because you will simply state that wisdom only comes from god because god says so. 'the bible is true because it is the word of god. I know its the word of god cause it says so in the bible'. Circular reasoning much?"

Even in a court of law, a murderer or rapist is given the opportunity to speak on his own behalf to defend himself and the jury WANTS to hear what the defendant has to say. You are not granting the Bible the ability to speak on its own behalf as a murderer or rapist is given in court. It's the same as saying, "Prove to me the President lives in the White House, but you can't go in or look in the White House to present your proof."

as per my earlier statement I will not be replying further to you bar this message, where I forgot something.
I am extending an invitation to you to join the forums at http://www.rationalresponders.com/forums if you care to defend your faith. there are two forums to do this in, being atheist VS theist or kill 'em with kindness (the difference being the latter disallows expletives, ridiculing your opponent and being a jackass in general, making for a more pleasant discussion or debate)
as a side note,I have confirmed my suspicion that you did not read or even simply look at the links I sent: "again watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AexPuBei-Hk"
 go ahead and actually watch that. it has nothing to do with the discussion that was at hand, and is an entertaining music video made by stop motion with watermelons.