Suppose it could be proven you were wrong--how would your life change?

bfish
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Suppose it could be proven you were wrong--how would your life change?

Theists:  Suppose that you were offered complete and total proof that your God (or gods) did not exist and that no other form of god existed either.  How would you change your life?

Atheists:  Suppose that you were offered complete and total proof that some god did exist.  How would you change your life?

 

I have asked this question of representatives of both communities in the past.  The answers never cease to amaze me.  Perhaps the answers here will help others as well.

 

Finally, please don't dodge the question by saying something like "no such proof is possible."  I'm OK with whatever the criteria you may have being completely impossible, highly ridiculous, and incredibly inconsistent.  I don't really care what the criteria would be and I'm not asking you to imagine what it would take for yourself.  I'm just saying that suppose a switch was flipped and you no longer questioned the existence of a god (you knew as strongly as you "know" now that the opposite of whatever you believe now was true).  The important part of the question is:  How would you change your life?


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bfish wrote:Finally, please

bfish wrote:

Finally, please don't dodge the question by saying something like "no such proof is possible."  I'm OK with whatever the criteria you may have being completely impossible, highly ridiculous, and incredibly inconsistent.  I don't really care what the criteria would be and I'm not asking you to imagine what it would take for yourself.  I'm just saying that suppose a switch was flipped and you no longer questioned the existence of a god (you knew as strongly as you "know" now that the opposite of whatever you believe now was true).  The important part of the question is:  How would you change your life?

Well, frankly, you have to be more specific.  People that are wrong about EVERYTHING usually end up in mental institutions.  If I was wrong about some things I would adjust my paradigm to include those new found facts, to the point that it is practical. 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Like Ktulu

As Ktulu stated, you would have to be more specific about the nature of this god. Is it the Christian god ? The version of god that the Islamics worship ? Is it the religion that the Hindus believe in ? Is it the powers that the Wiccan religion worships ? What about the multiple gods of the ancients ? Or are you referring to the type of creative force/karma/power type of god that my girlfriend believes in ?

My answer would vary, depending upon the nature of the god and what it's motives were.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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I would want this being to

I would want this being to tell us just what its plans for the population of Earth really were, if any, and to please explain why it did such a lousy job of setting up the Universe for us, and building so many flaws into our physical bodies and our mental 'machinery'.

Could it tell us if there were other self-aware beings in other parts of the Universe?

And why it kept so quiet about this for so long, leaving only what were, at best, very ambiguous 'signs' of its existence, easily accounted for by more non-supernatural causes.

Seriously.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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As to how it change my life,

As to how it change my life, that depends entirely on what it tells us of its plans.

The books that men have written to try and work out and/or guess what the 'true' nature of such a being are far too confused and contradictory and inconsistent with observed reality to be a useful guide to the motives of such a being, so we would definitely need some clarification.

Failing that, I would carry on as usual, since we would still have no definitive answer how we should proceed - the 'true' nature of such a being could be literally anything, the Bible would be just as consistent with a being deceiving us as to its intentions, as with a 'loving' God, in fact more consistent with a deceptive trickster, especially if you take the OT seriously.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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bfish wrote:Theists:

bfish wrote:

Theists:  Suppose that you were offered complete and total proof that your God (or gods) did not exist and that no other form of god existed either.  How would you change your life?

Atheists:  Suppose that you were offered complete and total proof that some god did exist.  How would you change your life?

It depends on the god. Some gods I would despise, like Yahweh, but you never know.

If that was all I knew, that 'some god' definitely exists, then I would focus all my efforts to learn about that god. It would be the most important discovery I could think of (right now, anyway). Short of neglecting my personal health, I would want to join whatever scientific team was making an effort to study this newly discovered god. Did it really create the universe, or is it more like typical gods from other religions and myths? Is it something detectable using modern instruments like a telescope, or what? Is it detectable at all? If not, then how do we know for sure it is real? Am I maybe hallucinating it? I would go to my doctor to get checked out if it turned out I was the only one who 'knew' it existed.

If there was some corroboration that this god definitely exists, then I would seriously want to know the method by which it was discovered. That would be awesome!

Then I would also have doubts, of course, if that's all I had to go on. Is this god benevolent, malevolent? Does it even know we exist? Can we communicate with it?

What has this god done that we can observe. Maybe its past behaviour will give us a clue as to whether it is dangerous or not.

How does the god work, in terms of our current theories of physics? Is it able to overcome thermodynamics, or is it also bound by those laws?

What is it made of? Ordinary matter, or something else?

Etc.

If the god somehow communicated to me, I would be very skeptical of anything it said. How would I know if it was lying or not? Without some knowledge of its past actions, it could be an evil, malevolent fuck, and the best liar in the universe. Too risky to trust blindly.

Can this god read my mind? Tell me things only I know? Can it perfectly predict the future? Can it alter the past? Can it cancel out all the suffering of the past? If so, why doesn't it?

Then I'd test out some of my favourite paradoxes. Can it create a logical impossibility? Can it perfectly predict the future, and yet somehow miraculously supply 'free will'?

Can it input to a Contradiction Machine the correct prediction of the Contradiction Machine's output (which outputs the opposite of its input, "No" if "Yes", and "Yes" if "No" )?

Etc.

Quote:
I have asked this question of representatives of both communities in the past.  The answers never cease to amaze me.  Perhaps the answers here will help others as well.

After conducting your experiment with us, I would be very interested to hear the results and kinds of answers you've received on previous occasions. It's a good question, IMO.

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Which God?

harleysportster wrote:

As Ktulu stated, you would have to be more specific about the nature of this god. Is it the Christian god ? The version of god that the Islamics worship ? Is it the religion that the Hindus believe in ? Is it the powers that the Wiccan religion worships ? What about the multiple gods of the ancients ? Or are you referring to the type of creative force/karma/power type of god that my girlfriend believes in ?

My answer would vary, depending upon the nature of the god and what it's motives were.

I think that it is OK to pick the god/religion/pantheon of your choice as the one that is validated and deal with that accordingly.  It might be more helpful for the theists on the site if you picked one of the religions in which they believe (it would be easier for them to understand your response, I'm guessing), but I really don't think it matters.  If you feel that it really does matter, then pick the one that would cause you, personally, to make the biggest change.

If you just MUST have me choose for you, then I'll pick the Christian God in whatever form you like the least Smiling.


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bfish,looking again at the

bfish,

looking again at the OP, and other comments, it seems like you may want us to imagine ourselves suddenly acquiring a Theist mind-set. That is almost impossible, or maybe meaningless. That would not be me. So of course my life would change, but I could only guess how. Maybe to something like that of a Francis Collins, who appears to be able to accept some version of the Christian God in an otherwise capable scientific mind.

It would be like those unfortunate people who have some significant part of their brain damaged.

Proof of any specific God IS definitely impossible, so you are constructing a totally invalid scenario. My response, and that of natural, and similar, is the only reasonable one - that doesn't involve changing many fundamentals of our mental universe.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


pauljohntheskeptic
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OK, I'll play.

OK, I'll play.

I'll pick the Greek gods.

They all come back in a dazzling splash to Mt Olympus. No doubt they are real. They then flit about the Earth demanding temples be built. If resistance is met, they show their petty nature.

I would become a priest of Dionysus and party on.

 

 

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Not quite

BobSpence1 wrote:

looking again at the OP, and other comments, it seems like you may want us to imagine ourselves suddenly acquiring a Theist mind-set. 

No, please don't.  That isn't interesting at all.

I am asking theists to take on an atheist mind set, that is true.  Any theist worth his salt will also argue that having his god(s) in his life is such an intrinsic part of his nature that it would be a fundamental change making him different to find out his belief was wrong.  On the other hand, anything is possible, and it is possible that a theist is wrong even if the theist is convinced that some god and particularly his god is actually there.  It is just an experiment, not a mandate that anyone actually change their beliefs.

I am not asking atheists to take a theist mind set, because a theist doesn't "know" a theist "believes."  In this case, the atheist gets to know.  There is no question of faith.  Whatever test would work for you would be met regardless of how absurd or ridiculous (if God has to walk over, introduce himself, explain himself, whatever, it is all done to your complete and total satisfaction).  

Again, the particular criteria don't matter because I'm not asking you to believe.  You would KNOW.  If it is important to you that everyone knows, then that can happen also.  You don't have to go recruit people to your new found knowledge unless you want that to be a component.  Part of the reason that the question is important is because it addresses some pretty fundamental stuff about a person.  I chose to ask the question here because I thought it would be possible that the people on this site would have the courage to actually answer (it is a hard question to answer if you have tried--nobody likes being so completely wrong about something fundamental).  

But, if you don't feel like sharing an answer then don't...I have found the answers really interesting and in a couple of weeks, I'll put up my answer as well as some others I've heard.  I didn't start with my answer because I have had a lot of time to think about it and answered it a whole bunch of times for myself.  I was worried that would bias the responses too strongly.  My conclusions from the answers that I've seen also are pretty shocking to some and expected by others, but I was hoping to get a body of answers up before sharing or revising my current conclusions from the small group I've asked directly.


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Hehe. If I could pick any

Hehe. If I could pick any god, I would pick one that did whatever I asked, and get him to beat up all the other gods, like pauljohntheskeptic's wimpy Dionysus! Then I'd make him force all the other gods to worship my god. Lol!

But, mercifully, I wouldn't force any humans to worship my god, and I'd let them play with their gods on Wednesdays, but NOT Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. (Edit: Except if that god is Odin. Then I'd only let him be worshipped on Thursday.)

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natural wrote:Hehe. If I

natural wrote:

Hehe. If I could pick any god, I would pick one that did whatever I asked, and get him to beat up all the other gods, like pauljohntheskeptic's wimpy Dionysus! Then I'd make him force all the other gods to worship my god. Lol!

But, mercifully, I wouldn't force any humans to worship my god, and I'd let them play with their gods on Wednesdays, but NOT Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. (Edit: Except if that god is Odin. Then I'd only let him be worshipped on Thursday.)

Dionysus might be wimpy but without him there'd be no booze or uninhibited sex.

He could cut off all the fun and have the other gods whining in no time.

No booze, no sex... the other gods would cave in to him immediiately.

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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I'll go

 

 

 

                     I can worship Bacchus the god of wine.  The one who turned water into wine [where do you think JC got the idea from]. He also told his followers to drink this wine in rememberence of me. Bless his little cyrosis!!!!!!!!!!!!  Now that's a god we can all kneel down to;  since we'll be too drunk to stand or sit straight, 'hic' prey on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No difference

None, zip, nada.  I can not think of a single thing I would change in my life. 

Let's pretend Allah exists.  And being female, I would be supposed to cover completely (for fear of starting a frenzied orgy with my fantastic sexy body </sarcasm> ), and only go shopping with a male family member, and not drive a car, etc.  F^ck that.  Stone me.  I'd continue to wear t-shirts, no veil, short hair, a swimsuit if I wanted, drive alone, shop alone, etc.  Use my cast iron skillet on the first stupid who tried to make me conform.  No praying, no stupid stifling clothes, no limit on what I do or read or say.  I'd be dead very shortly, but I wouldn't care.

Let's pretend the Greek or Norse pantheon exists.  They are all rather entertaining gods/desses, but I wouldn't put myself out for any of them.  Not even Bacchus or Dionysus - I have been recently diagnosed as diabetic and my alcohol intake is severely limited.  Let's say the god can fix that.  Fine.  I am not interested in drinking to oblivion every day.  Boring.  Aphrodite?  You have got to be kidding.  Athene or Apollo might be interesting as they are more intellectual - but worship?  Nah.  Loki, or for that matter Coyote, is a kick, but neither of them require worship.  I could go there.

Yahweh - please.  What a jerk.  Send me to hell, please.  If I have to face eternity with Pat Robinson or Jerry Falwell or any of those other idiots, I would rather be in hell, thanks.  Which does not mean I would worship Satan. 

Would I be curious about him/her/it/them?  Nah.  I would view it as a waste of time better spent studying something/someone more interesting.

 

Edit - spelling and parenthesis

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

natural wrote:

Hehe. If I could pick any god, I would pick one that did whatever I asked, and get him to beat up all the other gods, like pauljohntheskeptic's wimpy Dionysus! Then I'd make him force all the other gods to worship my god. Lol!

But, mercifully, I wouldn't force any humans to worship my god, and I'd let them play with their gods on Wednesdays, but NOT Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. (Edit: Except if that god is Odin. Then I'd only let him be worshipped on Thursday.)

Dionysus might be wimpy but without him there'd be no booze or uninhibited sex.

He could cut off all the fun and have the other gods whining in no time.

No booze, no sex... the other gods would cave in to him immediiately.

Damn! Got me there. I wonder if my god could figure a way out of that. Hmmmm... Eye-wink

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cj wrote:.  Not even

cj wrote:
.  Not even Bacchus or Dionysus - I have been recently diagnosed as diabetic and my alcohol intake is severely limited.  Let's say the god can fix that.  Fine.  I am not interested in drinking to oblivion every day. 

 

That sucks CJ.

CJ wrote:

Yahweh - please.  What a jerk.  Send me to hell, please.  If I have to face eternity with Pat Robinson or Jerry Falwell or any of those other idiots, I would rather be in hell, thanks.  Which does not mean I would worship Satan.

If Yahweh or specifically the Christian version of him was real it wouldn't matter what I'd do as I'd be headed for the Lake of Fire anyway.

Falwell and Robinson would be in front of us in line for the fiery dip

If instead it was an eternity of torture, (unclear from the various factions of Xtians) Hell would be spending eternity with our buddy Jean. I can't imagine much worse.

 

 

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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I for one, if offered proof

I for one, if offered proof of the existence of a god, would proceed to kiss ass until I figured out if I somehow would continue to exist after this body dies and if there was a hell.

If the god told me, "No.  When you die that's it.  Gone."

I'd go, "Oh, ok.  Later dude."

If yes and yes was the answer I guess I'd have to keep kissing his ass the rest of my life.

Fire hurts.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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I already addressed in my

I already addressed in my first response my reaction to being confronted with a God demonstrating his existence.

"Knowing" is just the strongest form of "belief". but it is still belief. You CANNOT "know" that what you "know" is true, in the silly philosophical sense of "know".

There simply is no way I could "know" that any God was 'really' the God of the Bible, since that God is claimed to have so many inherently un-observable or un-demonstrable attributes, or simply and truly impossible or meaningless or mutually contradictory ones, like all the omni- ones. So a God claiming to be such, I would interrogate as I described, and demand he explain the stories written about him, and justify or deny the atrocities, the abuse, the 1984-style mind-control attributed to him.

Otherwise I would simply ignore him, unless he insisted on forcing me to comply with his demands under actual force or threat of force or torture - which of course be a standing contradiction/denial of one of his claimed aspects, of being "Loving and merciful". Such a God is deserving of nothing but contempt.

My problem has nothing to do with the difficulty of being faced with being shown to be completely wrong about something or someone - I have confronted that from time to time already in my life. It is trying to imagine fitting something completely contradictory and inconsistent with pretty much everything else I already comprehend, which I have at least as much, and in many cases more, cause to accept than the naked claims of a 'God' entity, into my life, even if those claims are now coming directly out of the ass's mouth, so to speak. (I don't want to insult horses). My ideas about what "is" are NOT based on naked claims from authority figures.

I have personally witnessed 'magic' performances by skilled practitioners, including James Randi, so there is no way I would be impressed by someone doing something I could not explain - been there.

To repeat, my biggest problem with the Christian God, as with any of the other all-powerful ones, is not the question of their existence, it is reconciling their apparent actions, whether as claimed in the holy books, or as demonstrated in what are claimed to be their works, ie the nature and history of the world.

Those problems would still exist, just more seriously now that he apparently was 'real'.

As already mentioned by others, the Greek and Roman Gods are far more demonstrable to match their claimed attributes and behavior. Far less problems with them.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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ok

Lets assume that it is in fact the christian god that is found to be "real" then why would I change? He is supposed to know everything that is, that was, and that will be. He is infallible and what he knows is absolute. Why then would I change my actions given that he already knows exactly what I am going to do no matter what I do. I can't change what I am going to do since my life is already predetermined. So as I said why do anything different since whatever I am going to do he would already know and I would have no control over it anyway.

 

This would also be the case for several of the other gods of major religions. My life is already predetermined what I do is beyond my control.

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

You see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.


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bfish wrote:harleysportster

bfish wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

As Ktulu stated, you would have to be more specific about the nature of this god. Is it the Christian god ? The version of god that the Islamics worship ? Is it the religion that the Hindus believe in ? Is it the powers that the Wiccan religion worships ? What about the multiple gods of the ancients ? Or are you referring to the type of creative force/karma/power type of god that my girlfriend believes in ?

My answer would vary, depending upon the nature of the god and what it's motives were.

I think that it is OK to pick the god/religion/pantheon of your choice as the one that is validated and deal with that accordingly.  It might be more helpful for the theists on the site if you picked one of the religions in which they believe (it would be easier for them to understand your response, I'm guessing), but I really don't think it matters.  If you feel that it really does matter, then pick the one that would cause you, personally, to make the biggest change.

If you just MUST have me choose for you, then I'll pick the Christian God in whatever form you like the least Smiling.

Ok, here is what I'll do. I'll take each one and answer to the best of my imagination :

If it is some invisible force/karma/energy : I would want to learn more about it, read about it, and study on it. But, I don't think my life would change at all.

If it is Yahweh : My life would not change, for I can not see myself worshipping or following such an evil bully. I would no longer be an Atheist. I would be a god-hater.

If it is the god of the Hindus : Can't see that my life would change.  I'll get reincarnated and won't remember it.

If it is the gods of the ancients, I'd pick Pan and follow him or perhaps Bes, the Egyptian version of Pan.

If it is the Wiccan god/goddess : My life would not change, I would just know that the "feelings" that I feel when the seasons change and the cycles change were alot more than just feelings.

Now of course, this is just idle speculation. It is almost like asking me what would I do if I knew the wourld were about to end in one day. I can answer that based on what I THINK I would do. But I have no real way of knowing that nor would I have any real way of knowing that unless I was actually faced with it.

If some gigantic bearded dude appeared in Times Square and said "I AM YAHWEH". I would not immediately believe it to be Yahweh. Kinda like Captain Kirk in that Star Trek movie when he said "What does god need with a starship?,".

BTW: I have yet to hear a theist on here say what they would do, if they found out that god DID NOT exist.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Watcher wrote:I for one, if

Watcher wrote:

I for one, if offered proof of the existence of a god, would proceed to kiss ass until I figured out if I somehow would continue to exist after this body dies and if there was a hell.

If the god told me, "No.  When you die that's it.  Gone."

I'd go, "Oh, ok.  Later dude."

If yes and yes was the answer I guess I'd have to keep kissing his ass the rest of my life.

Fire hurts.

that's actually a very rational response, and I would probably proceed to kiss mucho ass also.  It really is the only logical course of action.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:that's actually

Ktulu wrote:

that's actually a very rational response, and I would probably proceed to kiss mucho ass also.  It really is the only logical course of action.

You take the left cheek and I'll take the right cheek.  Deal?

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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bfish wrote:Atheists:

bfish wrote:

Atheists:  Suppose that you were offered complete and total proof that some god did exist.  How would you change your life?

For starters I would no longer be an atheist, I would believe in God if there were proof.  I can't get specific as to how my life would change from that point, as I don't know anything about this God that could be proven.  

 

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harleysportster wrote:If it

harleysportster wrote:

If it is Yahweh : My life would not change, for I can not see myself worshipping or following such an evil bully. I would no longer be an Atheist. I would be a god-hater.

I think most of us here know enough about Yahweh to know that Yahweh couldn't exist and therefore is not the God in this hypothetical scenario.

 

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It would totally depend on

It would totally depend on who the god was and what the god was about.

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 Let me just say this... if

 Let me just say this... if there is a God he/she has a lot of explaining to do if he/she wants to avoid me and a bunch of my intellectual friends getting violent on him/her.

 

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Sapient wrote: Let me just

Sapient wrote:

 Let me just say this... if there is a God he/she has a lot of explaining to do if he/she wants to avoid me and a bunch of my intellectual friends getting violent on him/her.

 

There ya go.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:Sapient wrote: Let

cj wrote:

Sapient wrote:

 Let me just say this... if there is a God he/she has a lot of explaining to do if he/she wants to avoid me and a bunch of my intellectual friends getting violent on him/her.

There ya go.

You guys are crazy.  Holding a grudge or trying to get violent with an allpowerful entity is not going to have a happy ending for you.

Epic fail.

I say, let bygones be bygones.  Don't even bring that shit up.  Grab a buttcheek and start kissing.

I ain't burning for eternity over a principle.

"Yah suh!  Yah suh!   What can I do for ya suh?!?!?"

Courage will get you so far...then, in this case, it will get you in a world of eternal torment!

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Plus you guys are making

Plus you guys are making theists think erroniously that the only reason why you say you're an atheist is because you disagree with how things are.   That you are angry that a supposed god allowed crazy crap to happen.  Like horrible diseases and genocide and whatnot.

It's fucked up, but  I just accept it as simple fact.

If a new fact pops up, like say a god exists, I'm fucking changing my stance.

And thanks to evolution the stance is going to be whatever extends my existence and/or what makes my existence more enjoyable.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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 I can answer this because

 I can answer this because I was a theist and now am an atheist.

My theism over decades was proven wrong to me. It was a scary time. There was first guilt and shame which religion had bestowed upon me. I had to struggle with that. The transition was not one minute I was a theist and the next an atheist. I would go back and forth and ask what if I am wrong again I could burn in eternal hell fires. But in time I moved from that position more fully convinced that in particular a evil god like Jehovah didn't exist. If there was one then it would be more of a deistic god. I had feelings of being more alone and that was sad but it didn't last long. I started become interested in evolution and it really excited me. Here I had been rejecting science for so long and now this stuff just made sense. It opened a new vast world to me. It still thrills me and explains the world in an incredible and useful way. Stepping back just a bit I find going out at night, which I do with my dogs, I look up at the vastness of the sky and ponder. In my religious thinking I was afraid because I believed in the devil and demons. I was impressed with the sky for sure and hoped that soon Jesus would return and destroy all the evil. In my de-conversion I said "Well Jesus if you are there let me know". As time progressed I came to a place where there was no fear of these invisible forces. How are Jesus and the Devil alike? Both will fuck you up, but one says he loves you. Now I look in amazement of the universe.  How remote and tiny we are. It was quite inspiring. The fear of those things is gone.

But the big surprise for me because I was told this by religious people that I would become this immoral person. My morals have not shifted one iota. In fact I would say they have improved because I am directly honest. As a Christian I had to hide my doubts and project the agenda. I don't have to do that know. I don't have to have an answer for everything.

OK.

I cannot imagine myself going back the other direction, back to theism, because it took decades to get here. But if I did...hmmm....I would assume the new god would be quite different than the old one. I might like him better. Damn I would hope so. The change would be to try to figure out who he is and what he requires.  The results of that study would change me, but as from the above conversion I would still be me. Honest and moral.

 

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Watcher wrote:And thanks to

Watcher wrote:

And thanks to evolution the stance is going to be whatever extends my existence and/or what makes my existence more enjoyable.

By that way of thinking its ok to be a drug lord. That smacks of Social Darwinism to me.

If I "know" a god exists who is mostly ok then I would go about my business. One who is really "good" (seems so contradictory to reality but whatever) I would ask for help in also being good. One who is evil I would have to oppose, despite the obvious likely hood of not even leaving a grease stain when smote. An incompetent or careless god, I would try and grab its attention and see if things could be improved.


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I don't see a problem with

I don't see a problem with being a drug lord. Most of the "bad" things associated with drugs (murder, assault, theft, disease, etc.) are actually a byproduct of their illicit nature than a byproduct of the existence of drugs.
There are obviously exceptions. Heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, and others have significantly serious consequences beyond their legality, but many of those consequences could still be mitigated via support, while using threat merely inspires deceptive and avoidal behaviours.

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DanDare wrote:Watcher

DanDare wrote:

Watcher wrote:

And thanks to evolution the stance is going to be whatever extends my existence and/or what makes my existence more enjoyable.

By that way of thinking its ok to be a drug lord. That smacks of Social Darwinism to me.

If I "know" a god exists who is mostly ok then I would go about my business. One who is really "good" (seems so contradictory to reality but whatever) I would ask for help in also being good. One who is evil I would have to oppose, despite the obvious likely hood of not even leaving a grease stain when smote. An incompetent or careless god, I would try and grab its attention and see if things could be improved.

Wrong.   Stop and think about what you are saying.

I'm faithfully married and have been for nine years.

According to an overly-simplistic way of thinking, well I should fuck around on my wife right?  Got ass at home, get some on the side.  Sounds good right?

Yeah if you are a dumb kid.

Unfortunately I have morals.   And I really honestly love my wife.

Even if, right now, I KNEW for a fact I could nail some screamingly hot chick and NEVER get found out, I wouldn't do it.   Why?

Because I would know.   And I'm the only person that I have to live with non-stop for the rest of my life.

Drug lord?  What, a bunch of money, drugs, and high end hookers?   Ok.   Whatever.  Sounds good in cartoon 15 year old psychology.

I'm 37 dude.   I'm wiser than that retarded line of thinking.

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Watcher wrote:Plus you guys

Watcher wrote:

Plus you guys are making theists think erroniously that the only reason why you say you're an atheist is because you disagree with how things are.   That you are angry that a supposed god allowed crazy crap to happen.  Like horrible diseases and genocide and whatnot.

It's fucked up, but  I just accept it as simple fact.

If a new fact pops up, like say a god exists, I'm fucking changing my stance.

And thanks to evolution the stance is going to be whatever extends my existence and/or what makes my existence more enjoyable.

 

I'm 60 freaking years old.  I have compromised most of my life, doing things I don't want to do for the sake of family and holding household.  I'm done.  I am doing what I want when I want.  If god/s/dess doesn't like it, they can kiss my ass or stomp me to smoosh.  I don't care about them and I have lived long enough to not get freaky over being dead.

Our main difference is probably due to the age of our children.  You have a ways to go before yours are grown up.  My youngest is 33.  My grandson is 15, older than your daughter.  I would like to see if I am going to have great-grandchildren, but if I don't make it, I don't.  I understand your feelings of wanting to stay around for a daughter who still needs you.  Doesn't make you or me crazy.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:I'm 60 freaking

cj wrote:

I'm 60 freaking years old.  I have compromised most of my life, doing things I don't want to do for the sake of family and holding household.  I'm done.  I am doing what I want when I want.  If god/s/dess doesn't like it, they can kiss my ass or stomp me to smoosh.  I don't care about them and I have lived long enough to not get freaky over being dead.

Our main difference is probably due to the age of our children.  You have a ways to go before yours are grown up.  My youngest is 33.  My grandson is 15, older than your daughter.  I would like to see if I am going to have great-grandchildren, but if I don't make it, I don't.  I understand your feelings of wanting to stay around for a daughter who still needs you.  Doesn't make you or me crazy.

Old people are cranky.  j/k

Of course you can do whatever you want.  You can spit in a god's eye if you want.

But if you think 60 years is a long time wait until you have been screaming yourself hoarse for 10 trillion years in eternal torment.

Look, I'm not even arguing with you.   Hell, I like you.   I like all you guys.

I was just pointing out what the theists are going to say and more importantly how they are going to dismiss you entirely because of an illogical viewpoint you are throwing out there.

If you act all uppity and  then say if Yahweh popped in front of that you are going to cuss him out or something...well whatever.   That's irrational.

That's the definition of irrational.

I try not to be irrational.   True, I fail constantly.   But damnit, I'm trying.

If an almighty god pops in front of you and says do this or suffer the consequences, then fuck I'm doing it.   Any rational, intelligent person would.

And it doesn't matter if I'm ten years old, or twenty, or even my measly thirty seven years.   Nor your sixty.  Age isn't going to change this as the only rational thing to do.

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We are are not 'throwing out

Watcher,

I don't see us 'throwing out an illogical viewpoint" - it is really an 'illogical' proposition we are being asked to address.

And evolution is NOT about 'extending your existence', it is about how successfully you are at generating offspring, or helping others to reproduce.

Since you have already reproduced, 'evolution' now 'cares' less about you than before. In quite a few species, the male dies soon after mating. That is fine with 'evolution'.

And if by any chance there is some other species potentially coming along which your existence is in the way of, then 'evolution' may well be 'helped' by your early termination.

So apart from any comments on the "proven God" scenario. Your comment concerning evolution is very 'illogical'.

Confronting an allegedly ultra powerful being may well be ill-advised, if your main desire is to continue to live, but if you regard ethical/moral principles and opposing evil to be high values, and maybe would like to be remembered for that, rather than as an ass-licker, then it may be the more moral and principled course of action. Logic works in both scenarios - depends what your personal desires and purposes are. If you think you should survive to protect your children, that is a very reasonable position also.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Does suggesting my life

Does suggesting my life would not change direction count as dodging the OP's question?

Because it wouldn't change direction. Zip. Zilch. Just as I would not change direction on many other number of "bedrock" issues important to me. I'm also a good bit more moderate than some atheists here, oddly enough. That is something that could certainly change, but with regards to everything else politcal or atheism-related... nope, fat chance of that.

 

addendum: if nothing else, I would then have an excuse to make or watch a "Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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cj wrote:I'm 60 freaking

cj wrote:
I'm 60 freaking years old.  I have compromised most of my life, doing things I don't want to do for the sake of family and holding household.  I'm done.  I am doing what I want when I want.  If god/s/dess doesn't like it, they can kiss my ass or stomp me to smoosh.  I don't care about them and I have lived long enough to not get freaky over being dead.

Our main difference is probably due to the age of our children.  You have a ways to go before yours are grown up.  My youngest is 33.  My grandson is 15, older than your daughter.  I would like to see if I am going to have great-grandchildren, but if I don't make it, I don't.  I understand your feelings of wanting to stay around for a daughter who still needs you.  Doesn't make you or me crazy.

 

K. But instead of contributing to the atheistcore stereotype of being bitter at humanity's current situ, you seem to contribute to the pigeon hole (pun!) that atheists are basically people bitter about going to church/mosque/synogogue/temple, or that we are not atheists so much as people bitter at everyone else's imaginary sky buddy.

What I would give to shatter such a meaningless illusion...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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BobSpence1 wrote:Watcher,I

BobSpence1 wrote:

Watcher,

I don't see us 'throwing out an illogical viewpoint" - it is really an 'illogical' proposition we are being asked to address.

And evolution is NOT about 'extending your existence', it is about how successfully you are at generating offspring, or helping others to reproduce.

Since you have already reproduced, 'evolution' now 'cares' less about you than before. In quite a few species, the male dies soon after mating. That is fine with 'evolution'.

And if by any chance there is some other species potentially coming along which your existence is in the way of, then 'evolution' may well be 'helped' by your early termination.

So apart from any comments on the "proven God" scenario. Your comment concerning evolution is very 'illogical'.

Confronting an allegedly ultra powerful being may well be ill-advised, if your main desire is to continue to live, but if you regard ethical/moral principles and opposing evil to be high values, and maybe would like to be remembered for that, rather than as an ass-licker, then it may be the more moral and principled course of action. Logic works in both scenarios - depends what your personal desires and purposes are. If you think you should survive to protect your children, that is a very reasonable position also.

 

Hey Bob!   I'm really glad to see you still on here.   You were one of my favorite people on here that I remembered.

But to your points, yeah, you're right I suppose.   It is an illogical proposition.   But I still think we can think of logical steps to take in case something utterly absurd happens.   To throw away an eternity of bliss for an eternity of sheer agony because you're upset with how the world is, is...well is this even debatable?

My friend, I would have to disagree with you about "evolution is NOT about 'extending your existence'".  Nope.  No.   Nuhuh.   I mean I love evolutionary theory and I'm extremely passionate about studying specificially human evolution.   Love the shit.  I mean fuck, I've got a real acheulean handaxe from Africa that was probably made by a Homo erectus and a reproduction of the Broken Hill skull.

No some species do have where the males die right after fertilization, and some females of certain species die right after giving birth as a rule.

But I'm not an insect or an octopus.   I'm a mammal.  For our particular species, the longer you live the better you are able to successfully pass on your genetics to succeeding offspring.  Not only can a human male even at an extremely advanced age often impregnate fertile females but we're extremely social.  We've decided on a certain strategy of pair bonding in order to help raise our children.  Not only the longer I live the more potential children I could have but the more children I could assist in raising.  Therefore our species would select for males that don't die off right after getting a single female pregnant one time and not being there to help raise the child.

And i don't think necessarily that 'evolution' cares less about a father than a childless male.  It's possible.   But I see other sides to that viewpoint.  I mean heck, look at homosexuals.  If you just glance at that situation you would think, "evolutionary dead end" and move along.   I mean they can't reproduce if they are strictly homosexual.  Even a bisexual would have less of a chance of passing on their genetics if they waste time and energy mating occasionally with same gender members of their species.   Then why are homosexual's roughly 8% of the population of humanity regardless of location or culture?  They obviously contribute something to the species as a whole.   Probably by assisting with taking care of nephews and nieces.

 

Quote:

And if by any chance there is some other species potentially coming along which your existence is in the way of, then 'evolution' may well be 'helped' by your early termination.

heh.  I think you are taking this view of how to look at evolution a little too far.

There's nothing in the web of life on our planet that selects for a species dying off to benefit another species.   Not even predator and prey scenarios.    The gazelle got it's speed because lions are freaking dangerous.  It's a fight on either side of those two species to make sure the other guy loses.  Evolution would never decide to kill off a species for the benefit of another.  Every species is fighting for dear life to the best of it's ability.  And evolution is what is helping them, every single one of them (species wise) to try and win.

I don't know if I didn't make myself clear with that one line throw away sentence back there.  But I'm not being illogical in this respect.

Evolution has put into me a fear of death.  It has put into me the desire to live as long as possible.  Moreso, evolution has put into me the ability to feel pain or discomfort.  Therefore evolution has taught me to first LIVE no matter what, second avoid pain, third seek pleasure.  Now thankfully I share the same benefit all of you also have to be in a species that has advanced cognitive skills.  So I can therefore reflect, plan, and seek what will make me most safe, most happy, and most content LONG TERM.  So I'm not like some rutting monkey just trying to boink everything or eat ten pounds of bacon every day until my arteries fossilize.

The very reason why the idea of hell is so effective at scaring little kids like it scared me is because evolution created a creature with these attributes.

That's why those stone age bastards came up with the concept of heaven and hell.

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Sorry, evolution is NOT

Sorry, evolution is NOT about "extending your existence".

It is definitely about reproduction.

Social species such as ourselves do indeed allow non-reproducing individuals to contribute to maximizing successful reproduction, but it is still about reproduction. Period.

Any extension of life-span which allows individuals to continue to make positive contributions, directly or indirectly, to successful reproduction of their lineage, their genes, or the genes of their relatives, is going to be favoured by evolution. Otherwise it is just a side effect of some other characteristic.

Similarly, any characteristics, such as reasoning ability and other 'higher level' functionality that ultimately allow us to have more kids are going to be favoured by evolution.

But if they also allow us to devise more and more destructive weapons which we use in expressing our evolved drive for competition with other groups, or other 'clever' technologies that allow us to destroy our own environment, evolution may ultimately eliminate us as representing a blind alley.

To quote Arthur C. Clarke: "It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value."

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:Sorry,

BobSpence1 wrote:

Sorry, evolution is NOT about "extending your existence".

It is definitely about reproduction.

heh.  Ok, please tell me your plan on how to reproduce after your existence has ended.  Ya gotta exist to reproduce.  This is the basics.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Social species such as ourselves do indeed allow non-reproducing individuals to contribute to maximizing successful reproduction, but it is still about reproduction. Period.

I'm snatching your period.  Not true.  By your logic evolution would have weeded out all homosexual behavior in mammals eons ago.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Any extension of life-span which allows individuals to continue to make positive contributions, directly or indirectly, to successful reproduction of their lineage, their genes, or the genes of their relatives, is going to be favoured by evolution. Otherwise it is just a side effect of some other characteristic.

Agreed!  That's why evolution has created us to avoid death even if we are 99 years old.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Similarly, any characteristics, such as reasoning ability and other 'higher level' functionality that ultimately allow us to have more kids are going to be favoured by evolution.

Agreed.

BobSpence1 wrote:

But if they also allow us to devise more and more destructive weapons which we use in expressing our evolved drive for competition with other groups, or other 'clever' technologies that allow us to destroy our own environment, evolution may ultimately eliminate us as representing a blind alley.

Strongly agree.

BobSpence1 wrote:

To quote Arthur C. Clarke: "It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value."

I like that.  Thanks for showing me.

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You know, Bob.  It wouldn't

You know, Bob.  It wouldn't hurt you to at least say hi to me.

I know we're having this world hanging in the balance internet debate but dude, do you remember me?

Remember when I caught you on skype and started asking you all kinds of questions like had you ever seen a duck-billed platypus in the wild?

Gawd, now I just reminded myself that I've never seen a Platypus in real life.  Argh.  I want to see a real platypus.

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Watcher wrote:You know,

Watcher wrote:

You know, Bob.  It wouldn't hurt you to at least say hi to me.

I know we're having this world hanging in the balance internet debate but dude, do you remember me?

Remember when I caught you on skype and started asking you all kinds of questions like had you ever seen a duck-billed platypus in the wild?

Gawd, now I just reminded myself that I've never seen a Platypus in real life.  Argh.  I want to see a real platypus.

 

I think Bob is indisposed atm...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Watcher wrote:cj wrote:I'm

Watcher wrote:

cj wrote:

I'm 60 freaking years old.  I have compromised most of my life, doing things I don't want to do for the sake of family and holding household.  I'm done.  I am doing what I want when I want.  If god/s/dess doesn't like it, they can kiss my ass or stomp me to smoosh.  I don't care about them and I have lived long enough to not get freaky over being dead.

Our main difference is probably due to the age of our children.  You have a ways to go before yours are grown up.  My youngest is 33.  My grandson is 15, older than your daughter.  I would like to see if I am going to have great-grandchildren, but if I don't make it, I don't.  I understand your feelings of wanting to stay around for a daughter who still needs you.  Doesn't make you or me crazy.

Old people are cranky.  j/k

 

Darn tooting.  And don't you forget it.

 

Watcher wrote:

Of course you can do whatever you want.  You can spit in a god's eye if you want.

But if you think 60 years is a long time wait until you have been screaming yourself hoarse for 10 trillion years in eternal torment.

Look, I'm not even arguing with you.   Hell, I like you.   I like all you guys.

I was just pointing out what the theists are going to say and more importantly how they are going to dismiss you entirely because of an illogical viewpoint you are throwing out there.

If you act all uppity and  then say if Yahweh popped in front of that you are going to cuss him out or something...well whatever.   That's irrational.

That's the definition of irrational.

I try not to be irrational.   True, I fail constantly.   But damnit, I'm trying.

If an almighty god pops in front of you and says do this or suffer the consequences, then fuck I'm doing it.   Any rational, intelligent person would.

And it doesn't matter if I'm ten years old, or twenty, or even my measly thirty seven years.   Nor your sixty.  Age isn't going to change this as the only rational thing to do.

 

I have never been one to go along to get along.  It just isn't me.  And to me, it feels more irrational to kiss ass than to tell god/s/dess up yours.  I found this out taking an ethics class years ago.  One of the "ethical dilemmas" is do you have free will when someone is pointing a gun at your head, saying, "Jump off the Grand Canyon cliff other there or I will shoot you."  My response is sure, I have choices.  I can jump, stand still and get shot, or I can run, or I can attempt to take the gun away from the nut case, or ....  In short, I don't hold still for bullies.

And any god/s/dess who says, kiss my ass or fry for eternity is a bully.  I don't have to kiss ass, rational or not.  I don't have to be rational 100% of the time.  I am human and at least occasional irrationality comes with the package.  I have also been known to be self-contradictory and to have cheerfully admitted that I was, and to assert that I saw no reason to resolve the contradiction. 

Am I angry?  Perhaps.  Any rational person should be.  Take one omni-god/s/dess and look around at the mess that has been allowed to propagate on this world.  This is a plan?  This is intelligent?  As long as I am certain god/s/dess does not, can not exist, I don't have to waste my time and energy on anger.  But have him/her/it/them show up and I get to be angry.  Very angry. 

I can not conceive of hell and eleventy-bazillion years of torment.  But then, I can't conceive of playing a harp on fluffy clouds that long, either. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


cj
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Kapkao wrote:cj wrote:I'm 60

Kapkao wrote:

cj wrote:
I'm 60 freaking years old.  I have compromised most of my life, doing things I don't want to do for the sake of family and holding household.  I'm done.  I am doing what I want when I want.  If god/s/dess doesn't like it, they can kiss my ass or stomp me to smoosh.  I don't care about them and I have lived long enough to not get freaky over being dead.

Our main difference is probably due to the age of our children.  You have a ways to go before yours are grown up.  My youngest is 33.  My grandson is 15, older than your daughter.  I would like to see if I am going to have great-grandchildren, but if I don't make it, I don't.  I understand your feelings of wanting to stay around for a daughter who still needs you.  Doesn't make you or me crazy.

 

K. But instead of contributing to the atheistcore stereotype of being bitter at humanity's current situ, you seem to contribute to the pigeon hole (pun!) that atheists are basically people bitter about going to church/mosque/synogogue/temple, or that we are not atheists so much as people bitter at everyone else's imaginary sky buddy.

What I would give to shatter such a meaningless illusion...

 

I have no control over other people's stereotypes.  If I tell someone I am an atheist, what they then assume about me is their problem, not mine.

For example, where are you getting that I seem bitter about anything?  I don't see it or feel it.  Why bother being angry or bitter about someone's imaginary friend?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Kapkao
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cj wrote:I have no control

cj wrote:
I have no control over other people's stereotypes.  If I tell someone I am an atheist, what they then assume about me is their problem, not mine.

For example, where are you getting that I seem bitter about anything?  I don't see it or feel it.  Why bother being angry or bitter about someone's imaginary friend?

Bitter about not having a job, maybe. Or at least that is what I perceive.

You are probably correct in that maybe you don't feel bitter, and it isn't necessarily your problem what people assume sometimes, but believers are still going to do it if my personal experience with them is any indicator. Hell, I don't even need personal experience for this. They do it openly and publicly, but it's difficult to tell if this is simply petty denial or genuine ignorance, or even something altogether different.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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bfish wrote:Atheists:

bfish wrote:

Atheists:  Suppose that you were offered complete and total proof that some god did exist.  How would you change your life?

I think some people really doubt the 'skeptic' mindset.

To answer your question of how I'd react....that would depend on what this 'god' thing was all about, and why the ones who thought they were proving that 'god' exists, thought that they weren't mistaken, or had a complete picture of reality.

There is simply nothing that any monotheist has ever presented that even begins to show any probability that there is simply a 'singular' entity that they describe as a 'god', and that it has a singular 'mind', or 'determination'.

But my first thought would probably be the joy of learning that an 'afterlife' was possible, that I didn't simply 'extinguish' after death, and that I'd see people and pets again that were taken from my life by dying.

 

If it was found that the Christian god was 'discovered' to exist, I'd want to know:

1- If there was an actual 'hell', and if it was as horrible as Christians claim.

2- If there could be other 'gods', or proof that this discovered 'god' had complete autonomous dominion over us.

3- How they knew that this 'god' was not simply something that was an 'imposter', like a 'devil' that was tricking us.

 

IOW, I can wait till I die, and cross that bridge when I come to it.

In the meantime, cj and I are gonna let it all hang out, like there's only this life!...

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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I still

I still, as of yet, have not heard one resident theist say how they would react if they found out that there WAS NOT a god.

Any theists out there willing to tackle this question ? (Hopefully not Jean Chauvin, I am past the point of giving a shit what he has to say. )

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Watcher wrote:You know,

Watcher wrote:

You know, Bob.  It wouldn't hurt you to at least say hi to me.

I know we're having this world hanging in the balance internet debate but dude, do you remember me?

Remember when I caught you on skype and started asking you all kinds of questions like had you ever seen a duck-billed platypus in the wild?

Gawd, now I just reminded myself that I've never seen a Platypus in real life.  Argh.  I want to see a real platypus.

OK, Hi ....

Sorry if I came across a bit pedanticly impersonal....

Not sure I can remember that Skype interaction at the moment, it may come back to me later now that you have prompted me.

I haven't seen a platypus in the wild either, only at fauna park south of here. I have seen a koala and a wombat in the wild, of our larger marsupials, apart from the ever-present wallabies and kangaroos.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BobSpence1 wrote:Watcher

BobSpence1 wrote:

Watcher wrote:

You know, Bob.  It wouldn't hurt you to at least say hi to me.

I know we're having this world hanging in the balance internet debate but dude, do you remember me?

Remember when I caught you on skype and started asking you all kinds of questions like had you ever seen a duck-billed platypus in the wild?

Gawd, now I just reminded myself that I've never seen a Platypus in real life.  Argh.  I want to see a real platypus.

OK, Hi ....

Sorry if I came across a bit pedanticly impersonal....

Not sure I can remember that Skype interaction at the moment, it may come back to me later now that you have prompted me.

I haven't seen a platypus in the wild either, only at fauna park south of here. I have seen a koala and a wombat in the wild, of our larger marsupials, apart from the ever-present wallabies and kangaroos.

 

Way to get side tracked.....

So, I haven't seen one at a fauna park (zoo? zoological gardens?).  I've been to a couple of large zoos on the west coast, no platypi - platypuses - whosis - or even monotremes.  Now I have to go look it up.  Where is the nearest - or any - platypus exhibit in North America?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Yeah, it was originally

Yeah, it was originally called "Fleay's Wildlife Park", then "Fleay's Fauna Reserve", I think, originally set up by a guy called David Fleay, who was an enthusiast for nature, especially Australia's native birds and animals. In the 1950's he bred and delivered a number of platypuses to the Bronx Zoo in New York.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology