Magic, Miracles, and the Devil [kill em with kindness]

Joker
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Magic, Miracles, and the Devil [kill em with kindness]

Ok, a question to theists. Now I make a few assumptions here, this is partially based on an argument I had with a theistic friend. He believes that the devil exists, and he believes that magic exists, (suffer not a witch to live and all that). So I asked him a hypothetical question, If the devil exists, and can apparently give magic to people, why not have people take the mantle of either an old deity or some new one (or ideal, new age thing, whatever) and have them perform miracles. A guy walking around saying that he speaks for ancient Prometheus would make people laugh, until the guy makes a plume of fire rise from his hands and cause a broken vehicle to go back to function. It would be miraculous, more importantly it would work to undermine God. After all, if Gods followers aren't able to do miracles but these other people are, well this would imply that these new guys are the correct ones, I mean their deity, or the training from their ideals, is giving them supernatural power. It would seem to do plenty of damage to the faith which most Christians would agree the devil wants to do and it would also possibly get people to follow his teachings or ideals, so why not do it? When I asked him why he got sort of evasive and changed the subject. This sort of dovetails with the question of why there don't seem to be modern miracles on the same level as those during our less technically advanced eras.


ubuntuAnyone
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Joker wrote:If the devil

Joker wrote:

If the devil exists, and can apparently give magic to people, why not have people take the mantle of either an old deity or some new one (or ideal, new age thing, whatever) and have them perform miracles.

.

.

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This sort of dovetails with the question of why there don't seem to be modern miracles on the same level as those during our less technically advanced eras.

First, Theism or no theism, I think this is an argument from silence.

Second, the theist need only a possible explanation-- that is, it is not necessarily true. One could suppose that there is more doubt sown in the absence of miracles than in the presence of miracles for the existence of a god. In either case -- yours or this, the alleged devil wins. But there is simply no way to prove either hypothesis per the first reason I gave.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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Obviously miracles and magic

Obviously miracles and magic do happen.  But the devil keeps it quiet, because if it gets any press Sam and Dean come in and kick ass.

 

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Answers in Gene...
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Mel, I fixed your image so

Mel, I fixed your image so that it does not break the forum tables.  Would you please stick to a maximum of 640 px wide in the future?

 

TIA

 

AIGS

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Mel, I fixed your image so that it does not break the forum tables.  Would you please stick to a maximum of 640 px wide in the future?

 

TIA

 

AIGS

Awe man, you took away all of the dramatic impact!

 

I think everyone just needs to buy 30" monitors.  We'll call your idea plan "B".

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Yes, we can do that. Plan

Yes, we can do that.

 

Plan "A" shall be to be kind to those who have monitors that require normal graphics.

 

Hint:  My current DSLR defaults to 6000px by 4000px.

 

I have no problem killing one of your threads if you don't want to get with me on the whole 640px wide thing.

 

In fact, I have an old file from the early days of the internet that was made specifically for killing threads. It is a 2 bit gif that is 2px by 30,000px. White is transparent.

 

I can edit that into a previous post of mine as a regular user.

 

Trust me on this: It would take me as a mod a fair bit of time to sniff that crap out.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

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Joker
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Mellestad, your answer

Mellestad, your answer deeply amused me.

Ubuntu, I suppose such a thing is possible, however it might have been good if my friend had tried that argument. That and I could point out that in the bible the way they usually proved the existence of their god was a miracle-off. Just pointing out that it isn't out of character for the Abrahamic God to flex his divine muscle to prove his existence.


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Joker wrote:Mellestad, your

Joker wrote:

Mellestad, your answer deeply amused me.

Ubuntu, I suppose such a thing is possible, however it might have been good if my friend had tried that argument. That and I could point out that in the bible the way they usually proved the existence of their god was a miracle-off. Just pointing out that it isn't out of character for the Abrahamic God to flex his divine muscle to prove his existence.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”


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Not that I exactly believe

Not that I exactly believe in devil, magic and miracles, but I can explain it figuratively.

Devil is a big shot. He will make only big deals with big people about once per two millenia. Hitler, Nero, and such.
Another aspect is, that low emotions are the tools of evil, not miracles or fireworks. There's no need for forces of evil to walk on water, global trade system and G8 do the job well enough. Evil thrives on competition (yes, competition), selfishness, greed, fear, extremism, and inequality, which is present everywhere in extreme poverty and war.
A good Christian would surely remember the scene in Bible when Satan tempts Jesus, he doesn't beat him up with lightning or fireballs, he simply offers rulership over all nations. So much for the figurative explanation.
Of course besides there's a lot of small fry and shady dealings, but here's even less "miracles" and impressive events in general. Such a person is usually a medium, renting himself to mediumship in return for fame and admiration from a group of his followers. That's common enough.

I have only heard about playing with elements, producing visible external effects. One my friend walked on fire, repeatedly, without any preparation, together with other people and small children, and without even feeling the heat. But this is really not my trade, neither of my people, we're in much different department. This is all much bigger than Christians realize, big enough for a dozen of brand-new scientific fields at least. No wonder that they don't have an idea how it works and evade the question, they've only got some feeble Biblical passages. Becoming a Christian won't make one an expert magician, neither it's the purpose. The purpose is, you know, to be "saved", "enlightened" et cetera, and all this fancy stuff with fire, water, weather and whatever is just a side effect. You know the Biblical passage, "seek for the kingdom of Heavens and everything else will be given to you." That's the kind of deal Christians and others make with God. There are people who go after these side effects first, but as I said, that's not my department.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.