anti-thestic

adamlmartin
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anti-thestic

 

I am a Christian and I am doing research on anti-theistic point of view. and was looking to learn more from this and if anti-theistic and atheism was similar or not. I appreciate all the comments   

 


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 Their tends to be some

 Their tends to be some debate over exactly what terms like atheist and anti-theist mean.  If you wish this to go smoothly you may wish to tell us exactly what you think those two term mean.  


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They are not the same

Atheism and anti-theism are not the same positions. Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in deities, whereas anti-theism is opposition to theism. As I'm both an atheist (I see no evidence that would point to magic being real) and an anti-theist (I find the very foundation of theism repulsive and a blight on the human psyche) you can ask any questions you may have about the two positions.

So what exactly are you trying to figure out about the two positions. A little more explanation on what you're trying to understand would be helpful. If it's what atheists or anti-theists personally believe, then I can't help you there, as I can only state what the basic positions mean and where I stand on them.

You'll find that, unlike in most theistic circles, the atheist movement is like a herd of cats, so trying to find a position we all share, beyond lack of belief in magic, will be impossible.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
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adamlmartin
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 This is my first time on a

 

This is my first time on a form, so sorry I didn’t word that correct. I don’t know a lot about this subject this is why I am trying to learn more. I have did a little research but not much what I did see was that atheism is a absence of believe  in god, and that all religions are false; that there is no religion who’s central claims are true and that anti-theism is a conscious and deliberate opposition to them. I wanted to talk to real people who believed this besides read a lot of articles from people who may not even believe.

 


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Also explain theism as you

Also explain theism as you use it.


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 Yah, you may want to

 

Yah, you may want to consider the question that you are asking.

 

I would assume that you have heard of Odin (Scandinavia), Zeus (ancient Greece) and Isis (ancient Babylon). I would think that you are A-them.

 

Then there would be all of the “gods” of which you have never heard such as Dagon and Moloch. You are likely A-them as well.

 

What of belief systems which you may lack contact with and which happen to be polytheistic?

 

Shinto (Japan mainly) belief has thousands of gods. Only a small number of which have anything to do with creation myths. The others are gods in the sense that they have power over some specific aspect of the human condition. Surely, you are A-all of them as well?

 

So do you want to understand why someone would reject your version of god? Or did you want to know whay someone would reject every version of every being ever posited as god (even the limited ones)?

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 Well I am trying to figure

 

Well I am trying to figure out more about anti-theist then atheism really. Just from looking around on the internet and reading they always seemed to be closely related that’s why I asked that.  What does your last comment exactly mean? I am just starting off in this examining so I don’t know a lot of the big words and the smartness I see from both sides is sometimes confusing so please be with me as I try to figure out and understand it better.

 


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 I am an atheist in that I

 I am an atheist in that I lack belief in any God/gods.  I suppose some kind of god like creature could exist, but I have no evidence of such a being.  I am an anti-theist in that I think the world would be better of without belief in things that are not supported by adequate evidence.  This included a belief in a god.  Although I'm not really much of an anti-theist because I don't like to argue that much.  


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 I see theism as a belief

 

I see theism as a belief in one God, and for me that one God is the God of Christianity.  

 


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adamlmartin wrote: I see

adamlmartin wrote:

 

I see theism as a belief in one God, and for me that one God is the God of Christianity.  

 

Would you say that a Muslim is not a theist?  

Edit:  I mean do you feel that only Christians are theists?  


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wow. thats alot of info you

wow. thats alot of info you sound very smart. umm how about just why someone would reject the version of the christian God?


adamlmartin
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 No, I think there are

 

No, I think there are other religions that are theist. I was just referring to Christianity because that’s what I believe in.

 


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adamlmartin wrote:wow. thats

adamlmartin wrote:

wow. thats alot of info you sound very smart. umm how about just why someone would reject the version of the christian God?

 

Other than the stories in the bible contradict themselves.  Christians(read anyone with a religion) rarely act in accordance with their tradition, they pick and choose rules they want to follow when they want to follow.  No proof, other than names of places, in the "holy" book have ever been proven to exist.  I could probably go on about why people reject any version.

____

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adamlmartin wrote: I am a

adamlmartin wrote:

 

I am a Christian and I am doing research on anti-theistic point of view. and was looking to learn more from this and if anti-theistic and atheism was similar or not. I appreciate all the comments   

 

I would say anti-thesists are a subset of atheists. There are atheists that don't find religion ridiculous or harmful to society and individuals. There is wide spectrum of how anti-religious atheists. We range from religon is pure poison to those that think religion is actually helpful. There are also a lot of closet anit-theist that don't like religion but would never say so to avoid problems.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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ZeroSignal wrote:adamlmartin

ZeroSignal wrote:

adamlmartin wrote:

wow. thats alot of info you sound very smart. umm how about just why someone would reject the version of the christian God?

 

Other than the stories in the bible contradict themselves.  Christians(read anyone with a religion) rarely act in accordance with their tradition, they pick and choose rules they want to follow when they want to follow.  No proof, other than names of places, in the "holy" book have ever been proven to exist.  I could probably go on about why people reject any version.

 

I total agree with you that people in the Christian religion do pick and choose what rules they belief in and what they don’t want to belief in cause they don’t want to follow. but there is a difference between a Christian and a believer in my experiences. A lot of people call their self that to just go along and really don’t believe it. What stories in the bible are you referring to that contradict theirself?

 


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adamlmartin wrote: No, I

adamlmartin wrote:

 

No, I think there are other religions that are theist. I was just referring to Christianity because that’s what I believe in.

 

Ok that's good, but I'm still want to know exactly where you draw the line.  

 

Lets say you have a person who believes in a religion that has one god. 

 

If that god is not all powerful is that person a theist?

If that god is not all knowing is that person a theist?

If that god did not create the universe is that person a theist?

If that god is not loving is that person a theist?

If that god is not everywhere at once is that person a theist?

If that god is not interest in human beings is that person a theist?

 


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adamlmartin wrote: Well I am

adamlmartin wrote:

Well I am trying to figure out more about anti-theist then atheism really. Just from looking around on the internet and reading they always seemed to be closely related that’s why I asked that.  What does your last comment exactly mean? I am just starting off in this examining so I don’t know a lot of the big words and the smartness I see from both sides is sometimes confusing so please be with me as I try to figure out and understand it better.

 

A suggestion first.  Each post has two links at the bottom of the post.  Like this:

Reply | Quote

If you click on Quote, it will surround the text from the other poster like this:

[ quote = cj ]

stuff I said

[ / quote ]

But without the spaces.  Because without the spaces, it looks like this:

cj wrote:

stuff I said

When you create a post, you can check it by clicking on the Preview button at the end of your new post.  That will show you how it will look before you really post it up.  And you can edit it many times before you finally hit the Post button.  This will help all of us to figure out who you are replying to.

I may be able to help a little.  Growing up my family was of the "there is a god, but I don't believe in religion" sort.  My parents and most of my relatives would say they believed in god and Jesus, but then they didn't think church was all that great or necessary in their lives.  And in the 50s and 60s (I was born in 1950, and I just turned 60), that wasn't all that unusual.  What was unusual was my dad who hated churches, religion, and especially Jehovah's Witnesses.  I never did know why he was so against them.

So you could call most of my family anti-theism theists.  How's that?

I have been an anti-theism theist, a church going christian, a who care's about church goers atheist and lately I'm more of a militantly anti-theism atheist.

Why?  For trying to put miracles in science classrooms.  For insisting on more religious based legislation - we have too many religious based laws as it is.  For not wanting to fund Planned Parenthood.  Etc.  If theists would go to church and keep themselves to themselves, I would be a lot more tolerant of them.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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adamlmartin wrote: What

adamlmartin wrote:

 What stories in the bible are you referring to that contradict theirself?

 

 

It been a few years since I tortured myself reading that drivel from front to bac.  What I remember,  every single story in there is contradictory.  Since the first few pages should have had that disclaimer "All persons are fictional. Any relationship to an actual person is merely a coincidence."

____

The bible, good fiction? A 3 year old can write a better story.


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 Adam, welcome to the site.

 Adam, welcome to the site.  I have blessed this thread with the warning that this is the kill em with kindness forum.  My apologies if you create another thread in this forum and it takes me a few hours to add it.   - Sapient

 

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I may be able to help a

I may be able to help a little.  Growing up my family was of the "there is a god, but I don't believe in religion" sort.  My parents and most of my relatives would say they believed in god and Jesus, but then they didn't think church was all that great or necessary in their lives.  And in the 50s and 60s (I was born in 1950, and I just turned 60), that wasn't all that unusual.  What was unusual was my dad who hated churches, religion, and especially Jehovah's Witnesses.  I never did know why he was so against them.

So you could call most of my family anti-theism theists.  How's that?

I have been an anti-theism theist, a church going christian, a who care's about church goers atheist and lately I'm more of a militantly anti-theism atheist.

Why?  For trying to put miracles in science classrooms.  For insisting on more religious based legislation - we have too many religious based laws as it is.  For not wanting to fund Planned Parenthood.  Etc.  If theists would go to church and keep themselves to themselves, I would be a lot more tolerant of them.

 

thank you for the information, what religious based laws are you refering to? what do you mean by the not wanting to fund planned parenthood?


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[  It been a few years

[

 

 

It been a few years since I tortured myself reading that drivel from front to bac.  What I remember,  every single story in there is contradictory.  Since the first few pages should have had that disclaimer "All persons are fictional. Any relationship to an actual person is merely a coincidence."

if you can come up with some stories that contradict themself please let me know, i would like to dig into futher for the both of us.


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Hi.Have you ever actually

Hi.

Have you ever actually considered why you are Christian rather than, say Muslim?

In other words, have ever before thought about your faith, why you believe it, and not some other?

You should be thinking about those things, not just why other people reject your God, if you want to really understand us.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Ok that's good, but I'm

Ok that's good, but I'm still want to know exactly where you draw the line.  

 

Lets say you have a person who believes in a religion that has one god. 

 

If that god is not all powerful is that person a theist?

If that god is not all knowing is that person a theist?

If that god did not create the universe is that person a theist?

If that god is not loving is that person a theist?

If that god is not everywhere at once is that person a theist?

If that god is not interest in human beings is that person a theist?

what do you mean draw the line? because the God that i worship is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent and a perfect being. 

 


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adamlmartin wrote:if you can

adamlmartin wrote:
if you can come up with some stories that contradict themself please let me know, i would like to dig into futher for the both of us.

 

Just start with Genesis, by end of first page you should be either mad people believe it or laughing your butt off.

____

The bible, good fiction? A 3 year old can write a better story.


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adamlmartin wrote:Ok that's

 

adamlmartin wrote:

 

Quote:

 

Ok that's good, but I'm still want to know exactly where you draw the line.  

 

 

 

Lets say you have a person who believes in a religion that has one god. 

 

 

 

If that god is not all powerful is that person a theist?

 

If that god is not all knowing is that person a theist?

 

If that god did not create the universe is that person a theist?

 

If that god is not loving is that person a theist?

 

If that god is not everywhere at once is that person a theist?

 

If that god is not interest in human beings is that person a theist?

 

 

what do you mean draw the line? because the God that i worship is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent and a perfect being. 

 

 

 

 

I mean at what point would you consider someone of a different religion not to be a theist.  If people believed in a God that was different than your God at what point would you say that they don't believe in a God at all.  At what point would you say that the thing they believe in is unrecognizable as a God.    Consider the questions I asked.  If some other person's religion had a God that lacked one of the characteristics of the God you worship would they still be a theist?

 

 

 


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BobSpence1 wrote:Hi.Have you

BobSpence1 wrote:

Hi.

Have you ever actually considered why you are Christian rather than, say Muslim?

In other words, have ever before thought about your faith, why you believe it, and not some other?

You should be thinking about those things, not just why other people reject your God, if you want to really understand us. 

I can honestly say that I am a Christian because of the environment I was raised in, but that’s not why I am a Christian. I thought for a long time that I was because I was born in the Bible belt and that’s it. But I went a stray from the bible and its teaching for a few years and tried other things, but nothing gave me a satisfying feeling, nothing pleased me. I was still lonely looking for something else. And when I heard that there was a person god that did love me and cared for me, when it seemed like my friends and family didn’t I wanted to try him out.So I did start going to church and did not like the people there at first because what I seen was people who I used to drank with and knew they wasn’t anybody and was faking it. But I heard people say that we don’t go to church to worship or learn about the people we go to learn more about the guy who died for your sins. And at the time I had a bunch of them and still do. Havnt stopped sinning only learned to stop making the same ones because they wasn’t pleasing to God.But I came to know Christ because of my soon to be wife, I heard a preacher talking about the lambs book of life (that’s the scroll that has peoples name on it) and he asked if I was on it. Meaning going to heaven or not and I knew I wasn’t and I knew that my life was a mess and it needed a fixing, that’s why I am a Christian.


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 In order to use the quote

 In order to use the quote functions think of them a little like boxes.  

The top of the box is the [quote ] part.  

The bottom of the box is the [/quote ] part.  

Every time you have a [quote ] followed by a [/quote ] it forms a box.  

Just like real boxes you can have boxes inside of boxes so long as you remember that every time a [quote ] is fallowed by a [/quote ] it forms a box.  


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adamlmartin wrote:Ok that's

adamlmartin wrote:

Ok that's good, but I'm still want to know exactly where you draw the line.  

 

Lets say you have a person who believes in a religion that has one god. 

 

If that god is not all powerful is that person a theist?

If that god is not all knowing is that person a theist?

If that god did not create the universe is that person a theist?

If that god is not loving is that person a theist?

If that god is not everywhere at once is that person a theist?

If that god is not interest in human beings is that person a theist?

what do you mean draw the line? because the God that i worship is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent and a perfect being. 

From my point of view, a theist is someone who believes in the existence or one or more supernatural, conscious beings, regardless of any other attributes they may also believe such beings a possess.

So I would draw the line at belief in any supernatural, powerful, conscious being.

It would require all three aspects.

Not supernatural => could be an alien.

Not powerful => could be described as a demon, or something like that. Not a God. Still wouldn't believe in it, because I don't  think 'supernatural' is reasonable.

Not conscious => not a God, but a possibly a 'force' or 'principle', if 'powerful'. Same business about 'supernatural' applies.

If not interested in humans, still a God, just not ours.

========

To me, God would be a mystery to be explained, since the idea does not explain what we have established from science, or why and how such a being itself would exist. IOW it raises far more questions than it answers, particularly if you include all the stuff in the Bible which seems inconsistent between different parts of the book, and with what we have since come to understand about Life, the Earth, and the Universe.

It becomes even harder for me to take the Christian God seriously when you bring in moral considerations, when I read about the many hateful things I see that God is supposed to have done, or encouraged his followers to do, and the harmless actions he seems to be prepared to punish us for.

So if you add 'loving' to his claimed qualities, I would find it even harder to take the existence of such a being seriously, when I look at the history and nature of the world we find ourselves in.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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ummm really?

adamlmartin wrote:
What stories in the bible are you referring to that contradict theirself?

Have you even read the book you claim faith in? The contradictions start early and don't end until you finish it. Start with Genesis chapters 1 and 2. They are two different versions of the creation myth. The first chapter has Adam and Eve being created at the same time (after light was created days before any light source like stars!) and in the second chapter Adam is created and is given enough time to name all the animals in the garden before Eve is created out of his rib. How is that not contradictory?

Not to mention all the factually incorrect claims in the Bible, like bats being fowl, the moon being a light source on it's own, rabbits chewing cud, the earth being flat, and too many more to count.

adamlmartin wrote:
what do you mean draw the line? because the God that i worship is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent and a perfect being.

You do realize that it would be impossible for a single being to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, right? Let's go through this to help you out. If something is omnipotent it is all powerful, by definition can do anything. If something is omniscient it knows all, by definition everything that has, can, and will happen. If something is omnibenevolent it is all loving and loves all. Now lets see why these are contradictory statements. If it knows all, everything that has happened and WILL happen, then there is set path for the universe and nothing can deviate from that. If it's all powerful, it can do anything which would mean that there is no set path, as that being can change things when it wants to. So right there those two concepts contradict each other. It's either one or the other, if any of them are possible attributes at all. Then, if it really is all loving while being all knowing and all powerful, it would not allow for the things it loves to suffer, or it really doesn't love them.

You have backed yourself up against a wall by claiming all three of those attributes for your deity. Effectively, every time a theist claims those attributes about their magic man they have acknowledged that they either have no argument or haven't thought about it very hard.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
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Hello Adam

 

Welcome to the forum. I'm an atheist like most folks here and I'm a more than usually rabid anti-theist. I don't just disbelieve in gods but I loathe monotheism deeply. Personally, I'd like to obliterate the idea of god from the face of the earth. Bibles, korans, mosques, cathedrals, chapels, gargoyles, saints, clay popes and all.

Sadly, I'm obligated to put up with theism and all its intolerance by the tedious bindings of social morality. Just to flesh out the nature of my loathing more completely, as part of the process of de-conversion I have long wanted to kill god personally. As some former christians may understand that tortured part of the evangelised child never entirely goes away.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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adamlmartin wrote:I may be

adamlmartin wrote:

cj wrote:

I may be able to help a little.  Growing up my family was of the "there is a god, but I don't believe in religion" sort.  My parents and most of my relatives would say they believed in god and Jesus, but then they didn't think church was all that great or necessary in their lives.  And in the 50s and 60s (I was born in 1950, and I just turned 60), that wasn't all that unusual.  What was unusual was my dad who hated churches, religion, and especially Jehovah's Witnesses.  I never did know why he was so against them.

So you could call most of my family anti-theism theists.  How's that?

I have been an anti-theism theist, a church going christian, a who care's about church goers atheist and lately I'm more of a militantly anti-theism atheist.

Why?  For trying to put miracles in science classrooms.  For insisting on more religious based legislation - we have too many religious based laws as it is.  For not wanting to fund Planned Parenthood.  Etc.  If theists would go to church and keep themselves to themselves, I would be a lot more tolerant of them.

 

thank you for the information, what religious based laws are you refering to? what do you mean by the not wanting to fund planned parenthood?

 

Seems to me you need to pay more attention to the news or you don't live in the US.

Religious based laws (in the US)

1. Any law that interferes with what consenting adults do in privacy.

  Anti-sodomy laws.  Many states in the US have anti-sodomy laws - problem is, which definition of sodomy are they using?

  "Defense of marriage" laws - marriage is one man one woman laws

  Prostitution bans - making prostitution actually reduces sexually transmitted diseases and crime

 For your information, I am a 60 year old heterosexual woman married to a really nice man for almost 26 years now, and we don't have an open marriage.  But I shouldn't have to worry about nosy neighbors peeking in my windows to bear witness we are kinky.

2. Any law that tries to put miracles in the classroom

  Particularly the "teach the controversy" about evolution laws.  There isn't a controversy, get over it.

  Any law that requires prayer in school.  - you think praying about making an A will substitute for studying, go for it, but quietly - to yourself and god and no one else.

3. Anti-abortion laws

  Yes, religion based almost always.  There are atheists who are creeped out by abortions, fine.  I'd say close to 99% of the objections to abortion are religious, however.

There are others, but this brings me to Planned Parenthood funding.

The US House of Representatives removed all funding for Planned Parenthood in the budget.  Never mind that PP provides counseling and birth control to people who do not have health insurance.  And therefore, if they got pregnant, they would cost the rest of the taxpayers even more money.  Never mind that PP provides sexually transmitted disease counseling and treatment to people who can not afford to see a doctor.  Never mind that PP provides counseling and screening for cancer for people who can not afford to see a doctor.  And these people are low income, too young for Medicare, unable to purchase health insurance or health care.  So let's just let all the poor people multiply like rabbits and spread nasty diseases around their neighborhoods.  Way to save money.

Enough for now.

 

edit:   After the big post on quoting, I got it wrong.  Sigh.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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adamlmartin wrote:what do

adamlmartin wrote:

what do you mean draw the line? because the God that i worship is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent and a perfect being. 

 

In late 2009, a mother sold her 5 year old daughter to a man who raped and strangled the baby.  I can hunt up the news report if you would like.

How is this benevolent?

If god so wanted that child in heaven, he could have just stopped her heart while she was sleeping, there was no need to torture the baby first.

If it is god's plan - just WTF is this heinous act going to accomplish?  And how does this sort of thing qualify as benevolent?

If you read just a few news websites you could come up with many, many more examples of how god's "benevolent" plan tortures and maims innocent, good, and sometimes godly people.  The "plan" as implemented demonstrates a sadistic god/s/dess, not a "benevolent" one.\

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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adamlmartin wrote:I can

adamlmartin wrote:

I can honestly say that I am a Christian because of the environment I was raised in, but that’s not why I am a Christian. I thought for a long time that I was because I was born in the Bible belt and that’s it. But I went a stray from the bible and its teaching for a few years and tried other things, but nothing gave me a satisfying feeling, nothing pleased me. I was still lonely looking for something else. And when I heard that there was a person god that did love me and cared for me, when it seemed like my friends and family didn’t I wanted to try him out.So I did start going to church and did not like the people there at first because what I seen was people who I used to drank with and knew they wasn’t anybody and was faking it. But I heard people say that we don’t go to church to worship or learn about the people we go to learn more about the guy who died for your sins. And at the time I had a bunch of them and still do. Havnt stopped sinning only learned to stop making the same ones because they wasn’t pleasing to God.But I came to know Christ because of my soon to be wife, I heard a preacher talking about the lambs book of life (that’s the scroll that has peoples name on it) and he asked if I was on it. Meaning going to heaven or not and I knew I wasn’t and I knew that my life was a mess and it needed a fixing, that’s why I am a Christian.

 

It is perfectly possible to fix up your life and live a good, honest, caring, loving life without god/s/dess.  I've been doing it for years.  But then, if that is the only way you can get sex with this woman, then I guess you have to convince yourself to believe.

I grew out of the need for imaginary friends years ago.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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I've lacked belief in any

I've lacked belief in any gods (atheist) for my whole life. It took noticing the crazy things people do in the name of their 'gods' for me to start to become against irrational faith-based belief in gods (anti-theism). That probably started around age 8 or 9 when I read the Greek myths and saw how old religions had caused wars and died, and today's religions are causing wars and other problems, and they will eventually die off too, to become the 'ancient mythology' of the future. So why believe in them in the first place? It has never made sense to me from a logical point of view.

The only good explanations I've found for irrational faith-based belief in gods are things like: Wishful thinking, mind-projection fallacy, indoctrination in youth, forced conversions, fear-based delusions against non-belief (hell, Satan, etc.), and lots of other bad reasons.

There is no good reason to support belief in gods or religions. If there were good reasons, you wouldn't need faith!

There are lots of good reasons not to believe in gods or religions.

Therefore, I don't believe in them, and I try to show others why they shouldn't either.

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B166ER wrote:adamlmartin

B166ER wrote:

adamlmartin wrote:
What stories in the bible are you referring to that contradict theirself?

Have you even read the book you claim faith in? The contradictions start early and don't end until you finish it. Start with Genesis chapters 1 and 2. They are two different versions of the creation myth. The first chapter has Adam and Eve being created at the same time (after light was created days before any light source like stars!) and in the second chapter Adam is created and is given enough time to name all the animals in the garden before Eve is created out of his rib. How is that not contradictory?

 

Yes, there are two different versions of the creation story, but they have the same core.  Only chapter 2 goes into more detail about how it happened.  As to say in Chapter 2, let me tell you exactly how I did it.  They don’t contradict each other, but rather one expands on the other.  In Chapter 1, the summary, it just states God created man and woman.  Then in Chapter 2 it fills in more of the story’s details. For something as controversial as the Bible, it would make sense for something as simple as back to back contradicting chapters would have ended this debate a long long time ago.

To explain In Genesis 1:14 we see that God said “ let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night”, v.17” God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. This includes sun, moon, and stars. And thenIn verse 26 “God said let us make man in our image, in our likeness...” so yes he made humans after everything else. Like someone who can create the universe needs our help? See if you can create the Stars or the moon, are separate the water with the land, we can’t.

If you ever have seen sports and read the articles of view different writers you will see different aspects and stick out to you and some things that you might of didn’t see but the writer did. But whenYou look at the score and total it’s the same right? Same way, it just picks up shows different parts, and It still has the same ending . So the truth still hold up that yes the days where the same and yes the same things were created in chapter 1 and 2 and yes he says he made them.

 


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BobSpence1 wrote:adamlmartin

BobSpence1 wrote:

adamlmartin wrote:

It becomes even harder for me to take the Christian God seriously when you bring in moral considerations, when I read about the many hateful things I see that God is supposed to have done, or encouraged his followers to do, and the harmless actions he seems to be prepared to punish us for.

So if you add 'loving' to his claimed qualities, I would find it even harder to take the existence of such a being seriously, when I look at the history and nature of the world we find ourselves in.

 

 “There is evil in the world, and God allows evil in the world, even though he didn’t create it. The reason a loving God allows evil or anything that comes short of His perfect standard for that matter - is if he didn’t allow evil and sin, we would all be destroyed because all have fallen short of perfect.  We have all fallen short of God’s perfect love and standard. For the bible says in Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And He does love us,” bible answers to life’s big questions” but he also gives us free will. What kind of love would it be if he made us love Him? Just like you wouldn’t want your wife, husband or children to love you out of no choice in the matter would you?

 

 So He gives everyone the choice to love Him or not and to obey him or not. The book “Bible answers to life’s big questions” uses this analogy.  Let’s say that a dad made a baseball bat out of a tree branch so his son could play baseball. But then someone stole the bat and used it to kill someone. Does that mean that the dad ‘the creator’ created a murder weapon? Of course not, our legal system recognizes the difference between the person who makes something for a good purpose and someone who uses that object to commit an evil act. The flaw is not with the maker but with the one who chooses to commit the evil.

So if God did not allow evil, He would have to destroy everything that is evil that includes us. Because He is perfect and holy, and we are not, so we should automatically get hell but he gives us a choice because he has great love and mercy for us. But He does give us a way to get back into a right relationship with Him.  

        Romans 5:5-11 says, “5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

 There are a lot of stories in the Bible where God uses His people and His prophets to carry out His judgment.  For example, God uses Elijah to rid Israel of Baal worshipers.  After proving to the Israelites God was real and Baal was fake, Elijah the prophet of God slew the 450 prophets of Baal in 1 Kings 18:40, but why? Because Deuteronomy 13:12-15 says,

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[b] both its people and its livestock.” 

The Lord didn’t want a nation that had totally rejected Him to lead others astray.  These are the same reasons you discipline a child to keep them from harm.  He did this and things like this out of love to save them from destruction, letdown, and heartache.

 

 


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This just sounds silly, Adam

 

adamlmartin wrote:

 

 “There is evil in the world, and God allows evil in the world, even though he didn’t create it. The reason a loving God allows evil or anything that comes short of His perfect standard for that matter - is if he didn’t allow evil and sin, we would all be destroyed because all have fallen short of perfect. 

 

 

Aside from the fact these are nothing but rank assertions supported by more assertions, evil is a subjective human value judgement and sin is a label applied morally or culturally to a range of acts or behaviours. These might include mixing milk and meat dishes, murdering people, seeking the knowable truth, swearing, dissing your parents or doubting the existence of an unknowable exo-universal deity.  

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Sorry, but you must not have read it well enough...

You didn't answer my problem with the order in which it's claimed to have been done. Let's look at the order in which your book says it happened.

Gen. 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gen. 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness

So here it states your god created light on the first day.

Gen. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen. 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So here your god made plants on the third day. Now this is the problem.

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Gen. 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Gen. 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Gen. 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day

So it's stating by it's very order that your god created light days before he created the light sources, let alone the problem of plants existing without sunlight. And that isn't even dealing with the problem with the claim that the moon is a light source of it's own! Right there, that is a statement contradicting reality. And guess which one is correct?

You didn't respond to my contention that the Bible claims that your god created light days before he created the very light sources that produce light, which is obviously incorrect. You seem to think that I was contending simply that the discrepancies we see in the Bible are only between Gen. 1 and Gen. 2. Those problems are only the tip of the iceberg. How can you contend that this is an accurate retelling of the creation of the universe if it is full of incorrect assumptions? The only thing I can assume from the order in which these events are claimed to have happened is that this is a story created by people who DID NOT have access to the information that a creator being, if it existed and and told these people the story of the universe's "creation", would have given them. You cannot have light without a light source, and you would think that a creator being, if it existed and spoke to these people, would have told them this little pesky fact.

My problem with the Bible isn't just that it's internally contradictory, but that it contradicts reality. Spider Man is internally consistent, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't contradict reality. No matter how many times you allow a radioactive spider to bite you, you will not gain superpowers. Which is the reason why no matter how many Bible verses you cite, it won't change the fact that all the evidence available points to the Bible, like every other "holy" book, being a work of human minds.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
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Hi, Welcome to the

Hi,

 

Welcome to the forum.

First, I am sorry, but I would like to point to an obvious mistake in one of your message:

adamlmartin wrote:

I can honestly say that I am a Christian because of the environment I was raised in, but that’s not why I am a Christian. 

And the rest of that message basically tells us that you are a Christian simply because it is more comfortable for you starting from your early childhood.   The problem with this is that there is no analysis of "why are you a Christian"; your answer is that you are "just a Christian, that's why".  This is confusing for many (atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.).

 

Now, I would like to briefly comment on your original post.  "Anti-theism" is an ill-defined term. Unfortunately, you could not help us to understand precisely what it means in your definition.   In its broadest sense, this term includes antagonism to any theism, which is perhaps demonstrated by Richard Dawkins.  If I am antagonistic to a few religious only, then I am not an anti-theist by this definition. 

If, this term means antagonism to at least one religion or theistic movement, then you are probably an anti-theist by this definition. 

Obviously, atheism and anti-theism are not at all similar terms.

 

 

 


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:

Hi,

 

Welcome to the forum.

First, I am sorry, but I would like to point to an obvious mistake in one of your message:

adamlmartin wrote:

I can honestly say that I am a Christian because of the environment I was raised in, but that’s not why I am a Christian. 

And the rest of that message basically tells us that you are a Christian simply because it is more comfortable for you starting from your early childhood.   The problem with this is that there is no analysis of "why are you a Christian"; your answer is that you are "just a Christian, that's why".  This is confusing for many (atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.).

 

Now, I would like to briefly comment on your original post.  "Anti-theism" is an ill-defined term. Unfortunately, you could not help us to understand precisely what it means in your definition.   In its broadest sense, this term includes antagonism to any theism, which is perhaps demonstrated by Richard Dawkins.  If I am antagonistic to a few religious only, then I am not an anti-theist by this definition. 

If, this term means antagonism to at least one religion or theistic movement, then you are probably an anti-theist by this definition. 

Obviously, atheism and anti-theism are not at all similar terms.

 

 

 

There are peopele who believe in god but hate the way he allows the world to be and therefore hate him. These believers are called anti-theists.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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TG that's only one side of the coin

TGBaker wrote:
There are peopele who believe in god but hate the way he allows the world to be and therefore hate him. These believers are called anti-theists.

Would you call Christopher Hitchens a believer? An anti-theist may be a believer or an atheist, but they are opposed to theism in one, many or all of it's forms. Anti-theism is just opposition to theism, whether it be all it's various faces or specific variants and isn't dependent on belief or lack thereof. It's a short description, but the Wikipedia entry is a decent description.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


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B166ER wrote:TGBaker

B166ER wrote:

TGBaker wrote:
There are peopele who believe in god but hate the way he allows the world to be and therefore hate him. These believers are called anti-theists.

Would you call Christopher Hitchens a believer? An anti-theist may be a believer or an atheist, but they are opposed to theism in one, many or all of it's forms. Anti-theism is just opposition to theism, whether it be all it's various faces or specific variants and isn't dependent on belief or lack thereof. It's a short description, but the Wikipedia entry is a decent description.

No they may be atheist, theist, pantheist, pagan, etc: The point i was making is even believers can be opposed to a god they believe is real. As an atheist I am opposed to particular theisms such as all forms of Christianity, Judiasm and Islam that I know. I am agnostic to a hypothetical theism that would correspond to the empirical world as I know it but is not known. I love Hitchens but he like me is an anti-theist that opposes the false belief since the preson is not there to oppose. That is we oppose specific theism. Hitchens is open himself if there were ever a plausible theism shown to him.The fact that there has not been makes one anti-theistic if one actively opposes specific theisms, deisms.I  was attempting to point out that there are Christians etc'; that believe there is a god and that he is a bastard because the world or their life sucks to them and he is creul to allow that state.

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No worries!

TG, from my reading of your original statement, it seemed to me that you were making an 'only' instead of an 'and' kind of statement, which is why I responded such.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


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TG, B166ER,So we basically

TG, B166ER,

So we basically agree that "anti-theism" can mean several interesting concepts none of which is = atheism, and unless the author of the OP comes up with a well-reasoned definition of the term anti-theism that would be different from what we discussed, the answer to the OP seems to be rather trivial: atheism and anti-theism are two different terms, which even often refer to different people.

100%

 


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B166ER wrote:TG, from my

B166ER wrote:

TG, from my reading of your original statement, it seemed to me that you were making an 'only' instead of an 'and' kind of statement, which is why I responded such.

No problem I just wanted make sure that those anti-theists were included because they believers who are opposed to what we know is a non-existent god,  You'd think you could convince those people easier.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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100percentAtheist wrote:TG,

100percentAtheist wrote:

TG, B166ER,

So we basically agree that "anti-theism" can mean several interesting concepts none of which is = atheism, and unless the author of the OP comes up with a well-reasoned definition of the term anti-theism that would be different from what we discussed, the answer to the OP seems to be rather trivial: atheism and anti-theism are two different terms, which even often refer to different people.

100%influence

 

I agree. Now I am an atheist that is also an anti-theist both philisophiclly and morally.  I find theism as a danger to my children's future.  While 200 years of Christian missionaries failed to convert the most of Africa to their particular brand of Christianity there is an uncomfortable movement that has been spreading the continent.  Other groups along with missionaries usually come called bible translators. They actually create written languages for the tribes and translate the bible into that language as they teach them.  The new growth of some 36,000,000 non-evangelized Christians now exist without any particular doctrine and no Western influence.  They adapt their reading of the bible to their heritage and culture  looking simlar to the early emergent CHristians of the 1st century.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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Hi Adam. Welcome to the

Hi Adam. Welcome to the forums.

 

First, let me ask you: what are you doing this research for?

 

If it is for a paper in school or University, then you'll need to get alot more specific than just listening to our oppinions.

 

From Wikipedia:

An antitheist is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "One opposed to belief in the existence of a god." The earliest citation given for this meaning is from 1833. An antitheist may be opposed to belief in the existence of any god or gods, and not merely one in particular. The concept allows a distinction to be drawn between the simple indifference or apathy towards theism, atheism, or agnosticism (cf. apatheism), and a position of antipathy or opposition towards such beliefs.

end qoute.

 

As far as I know, the Term Anti-theism in it's current form in modern academia originates with Christopher Hitchens, so if you are looking for an academic definition of the term, I think you should start by reading his books "Letters to a Young Contrarian" and "God Is Not Great", and papers published about him. Discourse analysis, sociological studies, philosophy papers and the like. As Hitchens is a quite influencial figure today, I'm sure you can find a few people at universities from across the world who have written their PHD's about Hitchens and his work.

 

If you are simply reseaching this for your own sake, talking to us will surely give you a broader perspective on the kinds of people out there that are opposed to organized Religion and why. As you can allready see in this thread, we are very different, and have very different reasons for what we do, and why we do it.

 

Me, I am certainly and atheist, and in some specific instances Anti-theism, but generally I have no problem with religion, and never with indiviual religious people. I am quite fond of Shinto and Buddhism, and find that, allthough their metaphysical claims, and mythological claims have little merit, the worldview that shines through in them mirror my own quite alot.

 

On the flip-side I find Abrahamic Monotheism to be childish, self-rightious, and much more of a political movement than an existential philosophical pursuit. I find myself starkly opposed to Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and in that respect I am anti-theistic, since they are all theisms (allthough I still maintain that they are much more like political ideologies for the most part).

 

At it's core, I find religion to be a philosophical pursuit, intended to make us come to terms with our place in the cosmos, and most importantly with our own mortality. In this regard, I not only think religion is fully merited, but indeed insist that we are all religious in some way, in that nobody can escape contemplating and being confounded by their own existence.

 

But not only are there some answers to existential questions that I oppose on philosophical grounds more than others (that is: not all conclutions about our place in the cosmos and how to deal with our own mortality are equally wise) , but I maintain that far too much of religion quickly diverges from introspective existiential ponderings into political and cultural ideologies that are mostly concerned with shaping society in the direction the practitioners of said religion want. (that is: some religions don't even try to answer important transcendent questions in any meaningful way, but rather use ancient customs, myths and traditions, and the cultural identeties that they impart, to construct political influence over societies of people, to control how they conduct their personal lives, how they govern themselves, and which out-groups they oppose in war and in peace).

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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Yeah...

Yeah, it was a situation where we were all effectively buttressing each others statements, just using different means and different perspectives. It totally reminds me of this clip from Futurama where the two presidential candidates (obviously clones!) are "arguing".

1st clone: I think your 2 cent titanium tax goes too far!

2nd clone: Well, I don't think your 2 cent titanium tax doesn't go too far enough!

 

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


stuntgibbon
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Hitchens has a fairly short

Hitchens has a fairly short bit here that talks some about anti-theism, you might want to have a look at:  

 

http://videosift.com/video/Christopher-Hitchens-on-Religion-and-Anti-theism 

 

 


adamlmartin
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so does this mean that you

so does this mean that you support such people as Quentin smith and his views on the cosmological argument for atheism then?