What ever happened to god's miracles?

Renshia
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What ever happened to god's miracles?

One thing I do not understand, and admit it was a huge part in my departure from christianity is where are all the signs and wonders that god is said to be capable of?

For me I actively fight against religion because the entire structure is based on this god that in the past is claimed to have been extremely active in messing around in humanities affairs. Basically getting his point across to us dullards, as in old testament stuff. Even active in more modern times.. with new testament miracles. But then ever since man has developed the ability to group information together.. Poof no sign of god…

Where are the blind healed?.... Where are the lame that walk?…. where are the hungry fed with just a couple fish….

Why is the world is the UN food agency worried about shortages. There should be at least a couple believers that could pass a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish around and feed them surely?


Show me one person that was completely blind, crippled or on a death bed with cancer that was healed. One truly verifiable miracle. Why would god feel the necessity’s to send his son down to die and dispatch his disciples into the world to and then just disapear?

In the bible in Mark V16:15-18 the bible states;


“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Seems mighty fishy that as soon as we would all be able to witness this awesome power of our said Lord he retracts his influence and expects everything to be based on faith….

I may not be an overly smart person, but he states the credentials of his followers,  where are the signs that "will accompany those who believe?

I spent a number of years devotely following a chritsian faith… I never seen a miracle that did not have an obvious explanation. I never did see the blind healed. Hell never even met anyone that has or at least could prove they have.

So where is your god, what is he doing taking a holiday on Bazor?


Really if people don’t use there common sense and see religion for the fruit it doesn't bear, then i think they really do deserve to be slaves.

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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razorphreak wrote:If we

razorphreak wrote:
If we agree that the ability that humans have to learn is a miracle because we neither know why it happened nor how but are happy that it did, I can say it was a miracle from God and you can say it was a miracle that evolution provided us with such a, dare I say, gift. 

And reverting all the way back to the original post would show that miracles do indeed occur on this planet, whether or not you want to relate them to God or not.

But that's an even more basic discussion yet: you could say anything was a gift from God, and I could say it's an adaptation or a mutation. If organic creatures that learn survive, then it's because the ones that didn't died. That could literally mean anything: maybe it's a fluke, maybe a catastrophic event favoured learning, who knows?

In my case, I'm looking at nature and seeing how it operates to make a guess about what could have happened. In your case, you just blame God for everything. Your way isn't as fun for me. Especially since if we can say God does everything, then everything's a miracle.

But the original post was talking about truly unusual events, like healing the sick and curing the blind. These things don't happen outside of medical procedures, so the idea that magic could be performed that resulted in medically relevant results (the kind of miracle the original post is talking about) is a bit absurd.

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HisWillness wrote:But that's

HisWillness wrote:
But that's an even more basic discussion yet: you could say anything was a gift from God, and I could say it's an adaptation or a mutation. If organic creatures that learn survive, then it's because the ones that didn't died. That could literally mean anything: maybe it's a fluke, maybe a catastrophic event favoured learning, who knows?

In my case, I'm looking at nature and seeing how it operates to make a guess about what could have happened. In your case, you just blame God for everything. Your way isn't as fun for me. Especially since if we can say God does everything, then everything's a miracle.

But that's why society labels us differently, me a theist, you an atheist.  I guess that means there is a line in the sand and there is no way to cross it without changing titles?

HisWillness wrote:
But the original post was talking about truly unusual events, like healing the sick and curing the blind. These things don't happen outside of medical procedures, so the idea that magic could be performed that resulted in medically relevant results (the kind of miracle the original post is talking about) is a bit absurd.

I guess this thread going this long is my fault since I was hoping to first come to a "miracle" term agreement.  The issue of those biblical events I'd never be able to give a satisfactory answer anyway.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:No I can't

razorphreak wrote:
No I can't deny that "miracle" usually reverts back to the supernatural.  I'm not trying to remove that.  What I am trying to do however is see if anyone agrees that "miracle" can be attributed to events or actions and not always be about God, for the sake of compromise.  If we agree that the ability that humans have to learn is a miracle because we neither know why it happened nor how but are happy that it did, I can say it was a miracle from God and you can say it was a miracle that evolution provided us with such a, dare I say, gift. 

And reverting all the way back to the original post would show that miracles do indeed occur on this planet, whether or not you want to relate them to God or not.


It's hard to say, if a miracle is or isn't always attributable to God. In some sense always, and in some sense not. The only "miracle" I would most surely attribute to First souce, also unprecisely called "God", is the Big bang.
After that, all living beings in their great variety, material or not, are subsets of God, just like your fingers are subsets of your body. In that sense, all what they perform, and what seems like a miracle to less aware beings, is a God's miracle. However, it isn't a deed of God himself, but of it's more or less autonomous part. If the miracle is observable for us, this particular subset is usually more closer to us, than to God.
The range of spiritual development we have mapped and which is relevant to us, is rather a small fraction of what really is between us and First source. Even beings, which seems like gods, compared to us, and often are, still have a long way of their own development ahead of them.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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razorphreak wrote: I guess

razorphreak wrote:

 

I guess this thread going this long is my fault since I was hoping to first come to a "miracle" term agreement.  The issue of those biblical events I'd never be able to give a satisfactory answer anyway.

Yes, I totally agree with your statement.  Your inability to come to terms with the common usage of what constitutes a miracle has been a complete time waster.   Incidentally, in my almost fifty years of living I have never met a person, regardless of their theistic standing, who had the slightest difficulty in comprehending what defines a miracle.  You are certainly an anomaly in this regard.

What a miracle is as well as what a miracle is not has been explained to you in painful detail by others on this forum but you seem totally perplexed and incapable of grasping the concept.  Unfortunately our efforts to enlighten you have failed miserably....

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Yes, I

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Yes, I totally agree with your statement.  Your inability to come to terms with the common usage of what constitutes a miracle has been a complete time waster.   Incidentally, in my almost fifty years of living I have

never

met a person, regardless of their theistic standing, who had the slightest difficulty in comprehending what defines a miracle.  You are certainly an anomaly in this regard.

What a miracle is as well as what a miracle is not has been explained to you in painful detail by others on this forum but you seem totally perplexed and incapable of grasping the concept.  Unfortunately our efforts to enlighten you have failed miserably....

Funny thing here is I NEVER got any kind of explanation that I could see as to what is or isn't a miracle according to you (or others).  I got a lot of questions as to what you might have wanted to know what is or isn't according to me but you never told me what you think was or wasn't.  It always seemed to be some kind of offshoot explanation about something I said even though I painfully kept trying to give examples of my meaning.  And it all started because I said so many things around us are miracles to which many theists will agree with me.  You didn't.  Neither did zar.  Instead of you never answered me and are now telling me that I'm away from "common usage" instead.  I know what a miracle is.  I don't know if YOU know what it is since you never told me.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Yes, I totally agree with your statement.  Your inability to come to terms with the common usage of what constitutes a miracle has been a complete time waster.   Incidentally, in my almost fifty years of living I have

never

met a person, regardless of their theistic standing, who had the slightest difficulty in comprehending what defines a miracle.  You are certainly an anomaly in this regard.

What a miracle is as well as what a miracle is not has been explained to you in painful detail by others on this forum but you seem totally perplexed and incapable of grasping the concept.  Unfortunately our efforts to enlighten you have failed miserably....

Funny thing here is I NEVER got any kind of explanation that I could see as to what is or isn't a miracle according to you (or others).  I got a lot of questions as to what you might have wanted to know what is or isn't according to me but you never told me what you think was or wasn't.  It always seemed to be some kind of offshoot explanation about something I said even though I painfully kept trying to give examples of my meaning.  And it all started because I said so many things around us are miracles to which many theists will agree with me.  You didn't.  Neither did zar.  Instead of you never answered me and are now telling me that I'm away from "common usage" instead.  I know what a miracle is.  I don't know if YOU know what it is since you never told me.

Ok, let's start again.

For me, a miracle would be aomething happening that would have no possible explanation but a supernatural intervention.

That lets out the "Everything is a miracle because everything can be attributed to God" approach (at least for me).

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Yeah, "everything or

Yeah, "everything or nothing". Making up explanations as in fiction is fun. When it becomes dogma we get into some serious trouble .... All is "ONE".    Yeah the "awe" of this moment ! Call it "God" if you wish, but please please people, knock off the damn dogma, sheezzzz .....   


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razorphreak wrote: Funny

razorphreak wrote:

 

Funny thing here is I NEVER got any kind of explanation that I could see as to what is or isn't a miracle according to you (or others).    I don't know if YOU know what it is since you never told me.

You are quite mistaken or you are a liar.

Go back and read my post at # 140 where I supplied you with contrasting examples to show you the difference.... ( honestly, I can't dumb it down any further )  Others explained to you that an event  that clearly contravenes the laws of nature would be such an occurrence.  If you still don't understand then you have absolutely no business on this thread and should refrain from posting any further.  


Honestly, I wish that you would just go find a crazy Christian forum where your peculiar observations would simply cause you to blend in.  I'm serious. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you have nothing of substance to offer and I am quite certain that you will continue to supply us with ample evidence that supports that criticism.

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Quote:I guess this thread

Quote:

I guess this thread going this long is my fault since I was hoping to first come to a "miracle" term agreement.  The issue of those biblical events I'd never be able to give a satisfactory answer anyway.

This thread has come this far as a result of you being a dim-witted fraud, and nothing more. You wanted to come to an 'agreement' regarding what the word 'miracle' should imply? Bullshit! You NOT ONCE (though prompted several times) provided a concrete definition that we could look at and criticize that represents what you think a miracle is, and you even finally admitted to complete ignorance regarding the thread's initial challenge.

'Well, razor, why are there no more magical miracles?'

'Well... I don't know.'

Basically, that's what we can now boil the entire sum of your statements here down to. Why all the dancing around? Because you figured we'd let you get away with wiggling around the definition of what a divinely manifested miracle is until it was so sufficiently watered down that you could plunk it into the world and go, 'See!? See!? Miracles DO still happen!'

 

Dishonest little fuck.

But what am I supposed to expect from a Christian?

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Why are we all getting so

 Why are we all getting so cranky all-of-a-sudden? No reason for the hate. What would there be to rationally respond to if there weren't opposing viewpoints?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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HisWillness wrote: Why are

HisWillness wrote:

 Why are we all getting so cranky all-of-a-sudden? No reason for the hate. What would there be to rationally respond to if there weren't opposing viewpoints?

Some folks are looking for something to rationally respond to and aren't getting it?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:HisWillness

jcgadfly wrote:

HisWillness wrote:

 Why are we all getting so cranky all-of-a-sudden? No reason for the hate. What would there be to rationally respond to if there weren't opposing viewpoints?

Some folks are looking for something to rationally respond to and aren't getting it?

Point taken. Good reason to be cranky.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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jcgadfly wrote:For me, a

jcgadfly wrote:
For me, a miracle would be aomething happening that would have no possible explanation but a supernatural intervention. That lets out the "Everything is a miracle because everything can be attributed to God" approach (at least for me).

Thank you.  That's what I was looking for.  I was looking for the "miracle = xyz" and not filler in an attempt to look intelligent.

It's a shame that the thread has turned ugly and it's taken so many posts to get someone to say something other than "common usage,"  which is as close as it's come.

Honestly I don't even know what to say at this point.  I'd be curious to ask if you think that, based on what you define as a miracle, if such a thing ever exists since you believe there is no God.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Go

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Go back and read my post at # 140 where I supplied you with contrasting examples to show you the difference.... ( honestly, I can't dumb it down any further )  Others explained to you that an event  that clearly contravenes the laws of nature would be such an occurrence.  If you still don't understand then you have absolutely

no business

on this thread and should

refrain from posting

any further.


Honestly, I wish that you would just go find a crazy Christian forum where your peculiar observations would simply cause you to blend in.  I'm serious. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you have nothing of substance to offer and I am quite certain that you will continue to supply us with ample evidence that supports that criticism.

Post 140 refers to the "common usage" to which I am fully aware of.  But that's not what I had been asking for.  I had been asking for what YOU think is a miracle.  I didn't care what the hell common usage was; I'm not an idiot and I'm fully aware of it.  I provided examples that did not have a scientific explanation and never got any kind of answer other than from HisWillness.  I gave you my answer of what a miracle is but I never got one in return other than what is "common usage." 

You never answered my questions so how can I supply what you'd consider "substance?"

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Kevin R Brown wrote:This

Kevin R Brown wrote:
This thread has come this far as a result of you being a dim-witted fraud, and nothing more. You wanted to come to an 'agreement' regarding what the word 'miracle' should imply? Bullshit! You NOT ONCE (though prompted several times) provided a concrete definition that we could look at and criticize that represents what you think a miracle is, and you even finally admitted to complete ignorance regarding the thread's initial challenge.

Oh yes I did.  I gave examples of humans having the ability to learn, photosynthesis beginning and so on.  I offered up an explanation as to why I think we've never seen those things that the OP asks but I also admit that I've never seen them which cannot exclude them from happening since others have stated they have. 

And from all that, you call me a fraud?

Kevin R Brown wrote:
"Well, razor, why are there no more magical miracles?'

'Well... I don't know.'

Basically, that's what we can now boil the entire sum of your statements here down to. Why all the dancing around? Because you figured we'd let you get away with wiggling around the definition of what a divinely manifested miracle is until it was so sufficiently watered down that you could plunk it into the world and go, 'See!? See!? Miracles DO still happen!'

You paraphrase me incorrectly.  No wonder you revert to lies and profanity.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:jcgadfly

razorphreak wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
For me, a miracle would be aomething happening that would have no possible explanation but a supernatural intervention. That lets out the "Everything is a miracle because everything can be attributed to God" approach (at least for me).

Thank you.  That's what I was looking for.  I was looking for the "miracle = xyz" and not filler in an attempt to look intelligent.

It's a shame that the thread has turned ugly and it's taken so many posts to get someone to say something other than "common usage,"  which is as close as it's come.

Honestly I don't even know what to say at this point.  I'd be curious to ask if you think that, based on what you define as a miracle, if such a thing ever exists since you believe there is no God.

If something happens that has no possible explanation other than divine intervention, that would go a long way for me toward believing in a god.

That doesn't say that I wouldn't try to find a natural explanation but if I couldn't - it would lend credence to god belief. What bothers me is the "god did it so I don't have to look for another answer" attitude.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


razorphreak
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jcgadfly wrote:If something

jcgadfly wrote:
If something happens that has no possible explanation other than divine intervention, that would go a long way for me toward believing in a god.

That doesn't say that I wouldn't try to find a natural explanation but if I couldn't - it would lend credence to god belief. What bothers me is the "god did it so I don't have to look for another answer" attitude.

So I take it nothing has fit the bill.  I used examples in this thread of things like humans coming to gain the ability to learn or something like photosynthesis existing when it did not have to as "miracles."  Now I never asked for them to be linked into the divine for purposes of this discussion, so I'm curious how that fits into what you just stated?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:jcgadfly

razorphreak wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
If something happens that has no possible explanation other than divine intervention, that would go a long way for me toward believing in a god.

That doesn't say that I wouldn't try to find a natural explanation but if I couldn't - it would lend credence to god belief. What bothers me is the "god did it so I don't have to look for another answer" attitude.

So I take it nothing has fit the bill.  I used examples in this thread of things like humans coming to gain the ability to learn or something like photosynthesis existing when it did not have to as "miracles."  Now I never asked for them to be linked into the divine for purposes of this discussion, so I'm curious how that fits into what you just stated?

We have explanations for how people learn and for photosynthesis (no supernatural intervention).

No gaps for your God to squeeze into.

I think this is why people question whether you have a definition for "miracle". When someone refutes your definition of a miracle by providing a non-divine explanation, you change the definition by saying something like "Oh, I didn't mean it had to be an action that had no other explanation but God"

You're trying to reduce the definition of miracle to "anything that doesn't have an explanation or that I can't explain".

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Quote:Oh yes I did.  I gave

Quote:
Oh yes I did.  I gave examples of humans having the ability to learn, photosynthesis beginning and so on.

You then went ahead and backpedaled over these examples by naming other significant occurances that apparently aren't miracles, for whatever reason - never implicitly stating what that reason is.

Examples also aren't the same as definitions, and don't even THINK about get all whiny and victimized with me here - you've been given everything from the OP definition to the dictionary definition and everything in-between as far as our opinions are concerned. Arguing that only now has a, 'miracle=xyz' statement bubbled to the surface is an absurd lie.

So, I'll even go ahead and ask you, ONE LAST TIME:

What is your defintion of a miracle?

Rattling off examples is not a definition, any more than asking me what a mammal is and me saying, 'Well, like, bears and whales are,' would be.

Quote:
I offered up an explanation as to why I think we've never seen those things that the OP asks but I also admit that I've never seen them which cannot exclude them from happening since others have stated they have. 

And from all that, you call me a fraud?

Yes, I do.

We went through this whole song and dance, you watering down the OP's well-defined miracles into something more mundane and attempting numerous deflections of the thread, only to lead to this:

Quote:
As to why there are no more nature breaking, how am I supposed to know that?

Read the title of this thread. Go back and read the OP. Then come back here and read what you just said above. Maybe then you'll understand why people are pissed-off that you wasted so much time and space with mental gymnastics.

Quote:
You paraphrase me incorrectly.  No wonder you revert to lies and profanity.

I paraphrased you EXACTLY correctly. Go back and read your own words, copied and pasted for your convenience, above. At the end of the day, the best you can come up with is, "Duh... Well, I don't know where all the miracles went!"

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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HisWillness wrote: Why are

HisWillness wrote:

 Why are we all getting so cranky all-of-a-sudden? No reason for the hate. What would there be to rationally respond to if there weren't opposing viewpoints?

I'm pissed at what this asshat is trying to do - twist around a perfectly outlined definition until he can make it fit into the world, then use it as 'evidence' for his retarded belief.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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razorphreak wrote: Post 140

razorphreak wrote:

 

Post 140 refers to the "common usage" to which I am fully aware of.  But that's not what I had been asking for.  I had been asking for what YOU think is a miracle.  I didn't care what the hell common usage was; I'm not an idiot and I'm fully aware of it.  I provided examples that did not have a scientific explanation and never got any kind of answer other than from HisWillness.  I gave you my answer of what a miracle is but I never got one in return other than what is "common usage." 

You never answered my questions so how can I supply what you'd consider "substance?"

 

 

If you still cannot come to an agreement regarding this term then I seriously doubt that any further discussion with you will alter the situation. You presence on this thread constitutes nothing but dead weight....ps, have a miraculous day !

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

 

 

I'm pissed at what this asshat is trying to do - twist around a perfectly outlined definition until he can make it fit into the world, then use it as 'evidence' for his retarded belief.

 

If mutual understanding cannot be accomplished then that's razorphreak's problem, not mine.....besides, my intent from henceforth is to simply ignore his useless "contributions" and reply only to posts that merit legitimate consideration.

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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jcgadfly wrote:We have

jcgadfly wrote:
We have explanations for how people learn and for photosynthesis (no supernatural intervention).
 
No gaps for your God to squeeze into.
 
I think this is why people question whether you have a definition for "miracle". When someone refutes your definition of a miracle by providing a non-divine explanation, you change the definition by saying something like "Oh, I didn't mean it had to be an action that had no other explanation but God"

 
Well the problem, as I see it, is I started off by asking what about why we can learn or why plants give off oxygen.  Not about how it happens but rather why it occurred in the first place.  HisWillness did attempt to explain it but I know there is no scientific explanation as to why they decided to occur on this planet.  That's why I regard it as a miracle.  Out of all these posts, I felt like it was easier to question other details or dismiss my point of view instead of addressing it directly since, it would seem, having "miracle" in any discussion, whether by automatically assuming supernatural or not, simply cannot happen in this group.
 
I agree with your definition (for the most part) however my position is I believe that much around us are miracles, so there is more to just saying it's from God, therefore the examples.  On the very first page of posts I get blasted for that definition and now, here we are a few hundred after, and it seems even though I provided a definition as I see it, we're back to square one.
 
As to changing up the idea of a miracle, my goal here was not to make fun of science at all.  My thoughts on this were to illustrate that things that we see on a daily basis are miraculous because they are actually here.  While most (if not all) here have thought it ridiculous to think that way, it is my opinion.  Even consider evolution and the genetic mutation that happened that lead to humans - that mutation could be thought of as a miracle because it did not ever have to occur or could have happened differently (think Planet of the Apes scenario where humans are NOT top dog).  Science has never said why it occurs, only that it has (although this one I suppose has the "natural selection" reason but then I could ask wouldn't natural selection be miraculous in that it ensures the best survive?).
 
I find it very odd that the point I'm trying to make is just dismissed as lacking substance since we aren't talking about anything that difficult to start.  Either you do or you don't accept that some events that we know how they occur as still miracles because at some point in time in the past, nature decided that they should occur.  It has been this ultimatum for many many posts already.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Kevin R Brown wrote:You then

Kevin R Brown wrote:
You then went ahead and backpedaled over these examples by naming other significant occurances that apparently aren't miracles, for whatever reason - never implicitly stating what that reason is.

Examples also aren't the same as definitions, and don't even THINK about get all whiny and victimized with me here - you've been given everything from the OP definition to the dictionary definition and everything in-between as far as our opinions are concerned. Arguing that only now has a, 'miracle=xyz' statement bubbled to the surface is an absurd lie.

So, I'll even go ahead and ask you, ONE LAST TIME:

What is your defintion of a miracle?

I've answered this a few different ways.

Miracle = Act of God.

Act of God = an event that cannot be explained by science

An event that cannot be explained by science = miracle.

Miracle = an event that did not have to occur but has for the benefit of the human race.

Miracle = an attribute given to a human being that science cannot explain as to why it exists but is for the betterment of that individual.

I had hoped that through the examples and explanations of those examples you might be smart enough to have figured all that out...

The reason I took the thread this route from the OP is simply because if you don't believe there are any examples of what could be considered a miracle, how would you accept anyone saying they've seen one of the magical ones.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
I paraphrased you EXACTLY correctly. Go back and read your own words, copied and pasted for your convenience, above. At the end of the day, the best you can come up with is, "Duh... Well, I don't know where all the miracles went!"

OK what I said before I'd like to expand on.  I'm sure you'll flame me for doing it but frankly I think it necessary...

"As to why there are no more nature breaking, how am I supposed to know that?"

Because I have never witnessed it, I don't know why they have not been seen.  Because I don't know anyone who may have witnessed one, I do not know why they have not been seen.  Because there are no records of recent history of anything like this, I don't know why they have not been seen.   From what else could be considered a miracle, the "magical" however can be attributed to that.  I think it can be a bit more than just someone walking by and snaping their fingers.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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I AM proudly voting the

I AM proudly voting the "Saint", HisWilliness, 'Diplomat of Peace', a highest of honors. Will for president ! Hey friend, every consider public office. WE is damn short on intelligent government "representation" ..... Damn it's "ugly" out there ..... but why ? I trust you know  .....      

Lot's of really great folks here at RRS , nice to know you all.

  Thanks ..... 


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Razor, you wrote: "Miracle

Razor, you wrote:

"Miracle = Act of God.

Act of God = an event that cannot be explained by science

An event that cannot be explained by science = miracle.

Miracle = an event that did not have to occur but has for the benefit of the human race.

Miracle = an attribute given to a human being that science cannot explain as to why it exists but is for the betterment of that individual."

So, do you mean an act that can't be explained by science at present or an act that is imposible for science to ever explain. If science does come to explain and reproduce what was once a miracle, does it stay a miracle for you?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:So, do you

jcgadfly wrote:
So, do you mean an act that can't be explained by science at present or an act that is imposible for science to ever explain. If science does come to explain and reproduce what was once a miracle, does it stay a miracle for you?

I regard it more as something that can never be explained, like some of my previous examples; typically the "why" question.

I welcome scientific explanations but I do not go crazy over assumptions or speculations.

I regard miracles to be far more simple that the change the world magical events that I suppose some are looking for.  I think it's important not to fling around the term "miracle" for anything and everything especially when it has a logical explanation.  When science reproduces something like procreation via clones, I still regard it as a miracle since without it, we would simply not exist.  So to your second question, it depends on the "miracle."  But for the most part, I can't think of any where it would not be called a miracle still.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:jcgadfly

razorphreak wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
So, do you mean an act that can't be explained by science at present or an act that is imposible for science to ever explain. If science does come to explain and reproduce what was once a miracle, does it stay a miracle for you?

I regard it more as something that can never be explained, like some of my previous examples; typically the "why" question.

I welcome scientific explanations but I do not go crazy over assumptions or speculations.

I regard miracles to be far more simple that the change the world magical events that I suppose some are looking for.  I think it's important not to fling around the term "miracle" for anything and everything especially when it has a logical explanation.  When science reproduces something like procreation via clones, I still regard it as a miracle since without it, we would simply not exist.  So to your second question, it depends on the "miracle."  But for the most part, I can't think of any where it would not be called a miracle still.

The "why" questions are easier to answer without invoking miracles. why do plants create energy from light? They have the capacity (we know how it works) and it benefits the plant. Why do people do anything positive? It benefits them in some way. Why do they avoid negative behavior? It hurts them in some way.

It's also ironic that you claim that you don't "go crazy over assumptions and speculations" in the scientific realm but you have no problem with going crazy over assumptions and speculations if they involve a Deity.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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razorphreak wrote: Well the

razorphreak wrote:


 
Well the problem, as I see it, is I started off by asking what about why we can learn or why plants give off oxygen.  Not about how it happens but rather why it occurred in the first place. 

There is no "why" in evolution in the sens that you're asking for. That is, there's no ultimate plan - cyanobacteria don't think "great, all we have to do is learn how to harness the sun's energy to use as our own, move to land, learn how to produce spores, and then those wonderful humans that will come along in a few hundred million years will eat us!"

The reason "why" photosynthesis happened is because there is a sun. A mutation arose in a strain of bacteria that resulted in pigments that absorbed photons from the sun's light. The excited electrons can be used to produce ATP and NADPH, which are used to produce glucose.

The reason "why" it happened was mutation. The reason "why" it worked and continues to be an efficient source of energy is because there is a sun.

 

razorphreak wrote:

HisWillness did attempt to explain it but I know there is no scientific explanation as to why they decided to occur on this planet.  That's why I regard it as a miracle. 

Like I said, you are wrongly implying that there must be intent. There isn't. Mutations happen willy-nilly, and some work, and some don't - and most are neutral.

 

razophreak wrote:


As to changing up the idea of a miracle, my goal here was not to make fun of science at all.  My thoughts on this were to illustrate that things that we see on a daily basis are miraculous because they are actually here.  While most (if not all) here have thought it ridiculous to think that way, it is my opinion. 

There's nothing wrong in appreciating the complexity of the forces of nature and the diversity of life. I love running outside for this very reason; I like being in nature and thinking about what is going on around me - similar, I supposed, to a pantheist. However, to look at something amazing and come to the conclusion "therefore, God" is simply faulty logic. There's no evidence that there is a god personally invested in making sure that each chloroplast is doing its job.

razorphreak wrote:

Even consider evolution and the genetic mutation that happened that lead to humans - that mutation could be thought of as a miracle because it did not ever have to occur or could have happened differently (think Planet of the Apes scenario where humans are NOT top dog).  Science has never said why it occurs, only that it has (although this one I suppose has the "natural selection" reason but then I could ask wouldn't natural selection be miraculous in that it ensures the best survive?).
 
I find it very odd that the point I'm trying to make is just dismissed as lacking substance since we aren't talking about anything that difficult to start.  Either you do or you don't accept that some events that we know how they occur as still miracles because at some point in time in the past, nature decided that they should occur.  It has been this ultimatum for many many posts already.

Nobody is denying that things could have happened in an infinite number of other ways or combinations. Again, the reason why your thinking is fallacious is because there's no reason WHY the world ended up as it is now. There was no divine force that said, "I could create oompa-loompas, but instead I will create humans. That is the way the world should be." Saying that it's a miracle that we're here is like living in the cretaceous period and saying, "Wow, this planet is so well designed for us dinosaurs... it's a miracle!" Most of us know that things didn't work out too well for them, with the exception of birds, aka "modern" dinosaurs. The world changes and so does the life it supports. Cause and effect. Nature never "decided" anything.


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jcgadfly wrote:The "why"

jcgadfly wrote:
The "why" questions are easier to answer without invoking miracles. why do plants create energy from light? They have the capacity (we know how it works) and it benefits the plant. Why do people do anything positive? It benefits them in some way. Why do they avoid negative behavior? It hurts them in some way.

Wrong "why" though.  Why did it start on Earth?  Why were we "blessed" with the gift of thought, sight, reasoning even?  I'll expand on this with my reply to goddess.

jcgadfly wrote:
It's also ironic that you claim that you don't "go crazy over assumptions and speculations" in the scientific realm but you have no problem with going crazy over assumptions and speculations if they involve a Deity.

Well the question is asking me to assume some things to start with.  The bible is no science book.  I said what I said because when the "science" books start doing it, you gotta wonder.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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greek goddess wrote:There is

greek goddess wrote:
There is no "why" in evolution in the sens that you're asking for. That is, there's no ultimate plan - cyanobacteria don't think "great, all we have to do is learn how to harness the sun's energy to use as our own, move to land, learn how to produce spores, and then those wonderful humans that will come along in a few hundred million years will eat us!"

The reason "why" photosynthesis happened is because there is a sun. A mutation arose in a strain of bacteria that resulted in pigments that absorbed photons from the sun's light. The excited electrons can be used to produce ATP and NADPH, which are used to produce glucose.

The reason "why" it happened was mutation. The reason "why" it worked and continues to be an efficient source of energy is because there is a sun.

There should always be a why.  Not asking why can lead you down the wrong path.

You miss the point of asking why.  I'm not asking HOW...photosynthesis got every element and source of power it needed but the WHY is "why did it happen on Earth?"  It could have happened on some other planet or it could have never happened at all.  Your descriptions are all about how it happens but fails to answer why did it happen here.  There is no explanation to that and there never will be.  Hence why I call it a miracle.

greek goddess wrote:
Like I said, you are wrongly implying that there must be intent. There isn't. Mutations happen willy-nilly, and some work, and some don't - and most are neutral.

You know the idea of mutations is rather an odd defense.  Either way this thread is not about evolution so if you want to join in on that debate, by all means.

greek goddess wrote:
There's nothing wrong in appreciating the complexity of the forces of nature and the diversity of life. I love running outside for this very reason; I like being in nature and thinking about what is going on around me - similar, I supposed, to a pantheist. However, to look at something amazing and come to the conclusion "therefore, God" is simply faulty logic. There's no evidence that there is a god personally invested in making sure that each chloroplast is doing its job.

This thread isn't even about God.  That appreciation for the fact that it exists is nothing more than that.  The appreciation that I speak of however is more about the thought that it exists for everything and everyone on this rock, to which I call that miraculous.  "God" didn't even enter the conversation.  Might want to take that chip off your shoulder for just a second...

greek goddess wrote:
Again, the reason why your thinking is fallacious is because there's no reason WHY the world ended up as it is now.

To which I do not agree and FURTHERMORE if no one was asking why, then why was there a need to figure any of this out?  If no one asked why are we here, no one would have bothered to come up with the sciences we have.  If we did not have the gift of reason and inquisitiveness, why would never have even been a question.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Why did it happen on Earth?

Why did it happen on Earth? Conditions were favorable.

Why were conditions favorable? Natural processes had time to work.

It looks like you're trying to get someone to say "I don't know" so you can respond with "AHA! God did it!".

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:Why did it

jcgadfly wrote:
Why did it happen on Earth? Conditions were favorable.

Why were conditions favorable? Natural processes had time to work.

It looks like you're trying to get someone to say "I don't know" so you can respond with "AHA! God did it!".

Actually I'm not.  I've been trying to keep God from the conversation as much as possible because what I'm after is someone admitting to me that (a) miracles do exist with or without God or (b) there are no such things are miracles even if I can't explain how it happened (i.e. I choose to not call them miracles because they bring up the idea of the divine).

Again this is the reason I've chosen my replies in this nature on this thread; if no one here believes there are such things as miracles, with or without God, what was the point of the OP to begin with?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:jcgadfly

razorphreak wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Why did it happen on Earth? Conditions were favorable.

Why were conditions favorable? Natural processes had time to work.

It looks like you're trying to get someone to say "I don't know" so you can respond with "AHA! God did it!".

Actually I'm not.  I've been trying to keep God from the conversation as much as possible because what I'm after is someone admitting to me that (a) miracles do exist with or without God or (b) there are no such things are miracles even if I can't explain how it happened (i.e. I choose to not call them miracles because they bring up the idea of the divine).

Again this is the reason I've chosen my replies in this nature on this thread; if no one here believes there are such things as miracles, with or without God, what was the point of the OP to begin with?

Really?

I must've missed your attempts to keep God out of the discussion when you finally defined a miracle as "an act of God".

 

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jcgadfly wrote:Really?I

jcgadfly wrote:
Really?

I must've missed your attempts to keep God out of the discussion when you finally defined a miracle as "an act of God".

Then please forgive.  Please don't tell me though that is what will hang you up on this subject?  Please tell me my point was not over your head...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:jcgadfly

razorphreak wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Really?

I must've missed your attempts to keep God out of the discussion when you finally defined a miracle as "an act of God".

Then please forgive.  Please don't tell me though that is what will hang you up on this subject?  Please tell me my point was not over your head...

No, what hangs me up is that by asking why questions as examples of miracles, no one's answer will satisfy you (one why almost invariably leads to another).

Or we could enter the loop of "Why? Because." like we did with our parents when we were younger.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:No, what

jcgadfly wrote:
No, what hangs me up is that by asking why questions as examples of miracles, no one's answer will satisfy you (one why almost invariably leads to another).

That's because no one is answering the very simple question of do you or don't you believe there are miracles outside the thought of the religious.  I've asked it several different ways and not one person has answered it.  As it stands, you are about the only person who answered the question of what do you think a miracle is to begin with.

Nothing I say will satisfy most here anyway so I guess we're even in a way, even though I didn't think my questions were that difficult.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:greek

razorphreak wrote:

greek goddess wrote:
There is no "why" in evolution in the sens that you're asking for. That is, there's no ultimate plan - cyanobacteria don't think "great, all we have to do is learn how to harness the sun's energy to use as our own, move to land, learn how to produce spores, and then those wonderful humans that will come along in a few hundred million years will eat us!"

The reason "why" photosynthesis happened is because there is a sun. A mutation arose in a strain of bacteria that resulted in pigments that absorbed photons from the sun's light. The excited electrons can be used to produce ATP and NADPH, which are used to produce glucose.

The reason "why" it happened was mutation. The reason "why" it worked and continues to be an efficient source of energy is because there is a sun.

There should always be a why.  Not asking why can lead you down the wrong path.

You miss the point of asking why.  I'm not asking HOW...photosynthesis got every element and source of power it needed but the WHY is "why did it happen on Earth?"  It could have happened on some other planet or it could have never happened at all.  Your descriptions are all about how it happens but fails to answer why did it happen here.  There is no explanation to that and there never will be.  Hence why I call it a miracle.

You seem to have missed my whole point that

Quote:

There is no "why" in evolution in the sense that you're asking for.

Let me try to approach this from a slightly different angle. Scientists have asked why photosynthesis happened. And they have come to the conclusion thus far that it is because of a mutation that allowed bacteria to exploit photons as an energy source. I did also include the "how" in an attempt to clarify things for you, which, in hindsight, was maybe a mistake, because it appears to have confused you instead.

I was trying to explain that this is not a satisfactory answer for you, because you're anthropomorphizing nature, as if it's a conscious force that makes conscious decisions as to how the world should be, when this is not the case. There is no "why" in nature in the same way that there's a "why" for losing weight, or deciding to become a writer, etc. There is no human intent.

I really think that if you understood scientific processes better, especially evolution, this would be an easier concept for you to grasp.

razorphreak wrote:

greek goddess wrote:
Like I said, you are wrongly implying that there must be intent. There isn't. Mutations happen willy-nilly, and some work, and some don't - and most are neutral.

You know the idea of mutations is rather an odd defense.  Either way this thread is not about evolution so if you want to join in on that debate, by all means.

How is it an odd defense? It's the mechanism of evolution, which is the process by which photosynthesis came to be. You're the one that brought up photosynthesis and other natural phenomena; if you weren't interested in hearing the scientific explanations behind them, then why did you mention them? I'm not bringing in evolution out of the blue; you're the one who asked why things happen, and I'm giving you an explanation.

razorphreak wrote:

greek goddess wrote:
There's nothing wrong in appreciating the complexity of the forces of nature and the diversity of life. I love running outside for this very reason; I like being in nature and thinking about what is going on around me - similar, I supposed, to a pantheist. However, to look at something amazing and come to the conclusion "therefore, God" is simply faulty logic. There's no evidence that there is a god personally invested in making sure that each chloroplast is doing its job.

This thread isn't even about God.  That appreciation for the fact that it exists is nothing more than that.  The appreciation that I speak of however is more about the thought that it exists for everything and everyone on this rock, to which I call that miraculous.  "God" didn't even enter the conversation.

Well that's an interesting tactic... bring up evolution and God, and then deny that those topics are involved in the debate? The word miracle implies a supernatural cause - which could certainly encompass a god. I don't see how we're going to discuss the topic of miracles without mentioning a god.

If you meant for "miraculous" to be synonymous with "awe-inspiring," as is common in colloquial speech, well I could agree with that. But what you are trying to do is conflate the two meanings of miraculous: 1) awe-inspiring 2) an event with supernatural causes. And this is something I don't agree with. Yes, the impact of photosynthesis on the planet has been tremendous - I'd even say awe-inspiring. But that doesn't mean I attribute it to divine causes.

 

razorphreak wrote:

Might want to take that chip off your shoulder for just a second...

I have a chip on my shoulder? Am I coming off as angry or something?... confused...

razorphreak wrote:

greek goddess wrote:
Again, the reason why your thinking is fallacious is because there's no reason WHY the world ended up as it is now.

To which I do not agree and FURTHERMORE if no one was asking why, then why was there a need to figure any of this out?  If no one asked why are we here, no one would have bothered to come up with the sciences we have.  If we did not have the gift of reason and inquisitiveness, why would never have even been a question.

I'm not saying that nobody is asking why... I'm saying that the answers we have to that question are not "good enough" for you, because you want an answer that explains "why" from a human standpoint.

It's like asking why the sky is blue... physics tells us why the sky is blue. But you want to know why blue was chosen. It wasn't chosen. It's the random result of some physical processes. That's what I'm telling you.

Photosynthesis wasn't chosen. It's the random result of physical processes.

Humans weren't chosen. We're the random result of physical processes....

Is this making sense yet?


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You get me proud Goddess and

You get me proud Goddess and and , nevermind !     (((( to echo in Greek  ......

  For me there is big difference between asking why and how. Asking 'Why' suggests a beginning from nothing and a creator and I can't fantom any of that, nor do I find the question productive.

Asking 'How' is a productive question, but let's realize that "all of the how" will never be known either ..... that's my honest hunch.

So let's not make shit up unless we call it fiction.  It's all a miracle or nothing is a miracle.

Call it god if you want, I do , but please stop all dogma. Hey you religious folks, my atheist story Jesus friend would insist ! .....  He no like superstition nor idol worship.

My jesus buddha is better than your jesus paul ! .... nener nener ..... 


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greek goddess wrote:Let me

greek goddess wrote:
Let me try to approach this from a slightly different angle. Scientists have asked why photosynthesis happened. And they have come to the conclusion thus far that it is because of a mutation that allowed bacteria to exploit photons as an energy source. I did also include the "how" in an attempt to clarify things for you, which, in hindsight, was maybe a mistake, because it appears to have confused you instead.

I was trying to explain that this is not a satisfactory answer for you, because you're anthropomorphizing nature, as if it's a conscious force that makes conscious decisions as to how the world should be, when this is not the case. There is no "why" in nature in the same way that there's a "why" for losing weight, or deciding to become a writer, etc. There is no human intent.

I really think that if you understood scientific processes better, especially evolution, this would be an easier concept for you to grasp.

I will admit that I am no expert.  I don't pretend to be.

I find it so odd that no matter my explanation it seems that I have to continue to restate what I've been saying over and over and over again.  As if it neither makes sense of it is simply not compatible to anyone's method of thinking.

You say that I am anthropomorphizing nature?  How?  Because I find it miraculous that something in nature exists?  Your answer, as I suppose is everyone else's, was a "random event." 

I do want to thank you though at this point; you've finally told me what no one else has - you do not accept that anything could be called a miracle.

This also means that the subsequent posts attempting to defend the OP were all bandwagon posts attempting to defend something that no one believed in to begin with.  I consider that very ridiculous and deceitful in that under the guise of "rational debate" you ask a question that irregardless of any response, there would have never been an acceptable answer.  If no one responding believes in miracles, what is the point in asking about them or even debating them?

But again thank you GG.  At least you were direct with me.  I do not agree with you but I accept that as an answer.  The thread I directed you to about evolution has my response in regard to mutation.

greek goddess wrote:
Well that's an interesting tactic... bring up evolution and God, and then deny that those topics are involved in the debate? The word miracle implies a supernatural cause - which could certainly encompass a god. I don't see how we're going to discuss the topic of miracles without mentioning a god.

That's why I was trying to use examples that could be related to by those on this thread since no one here is accepting there is a God.  It would be pointless to argue anything that deals with God giving gifts (even though I frequently stated that I believe they are gifts from God) if no one believes that God exists.  I was trying to state things outside the subject of God but your point is clear; miracles only occur with God and since you believe there is no God, there are no miracles.

greek goddess wrote:
It's like asking why the sky is blue... physics tells us why the sky is blue. But you want to know why blue was chosen. It wasn't chosen. It's the random result of some physical processes. That's what I'm telling you.

Photosynthesis wasn't chosen. It's the random result of physical processes.

Humans weren't chosen. We're the random result of physical processes....

Is this making sense yet?

As I stated, your position makes perfect sense.  I'm not sure why no one else could simply say what you've said.  I do not agree because of some of the particulars but that is not the point of this thread.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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My ego is so

My ego is so disgustingly bloated, my state so horrifyingly self-absorbed right at this time, that I'm actually smiling ear to ear. I've been doing that for fucking hours now, in fact.

My most pressing urge, currently, is to just laugh right in the world's face. I suppose yours will do in a pinch.

Quote:

Miracle = Act of God.

Act of God = an event that cannot be explained by science

You must've missed the part where 'God' was a fucked-up, retarded ploy and the conceptual crutch of idiots. To bring it up as your main line of d is to be hysterically stupid.

God isn't real. Neither are miracles. This thread isn't even a 'debate' anymore (and it's pretty questionable it fit that descriptor at any point in time, really) - it's an excercize in making fun of you.

 

Keep going, though. I'm actually secretly rooting you on, and pondering just how many times I can get away with calling the same theist 'fucked-up' and 'retarded' in the KEWK forum.

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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This question, if the

This question, if the universe, our planet and life are God's miracles, is currently impossible to answer by logic assumption. Let's see, is all the life teleologic, does it have a direction, a purpose? From the hindsight, we can say yes, because all this was a dead matter, then this place formed, then life appeared, and that life increased it's complexity to this form as we see it now and surely will continue. We don't know why, or how, all we know is, that physical laws of our universe allowed it to happen. And where the physical laws came from?
I'd say from the First source, but that would be a tautology. Theoretically, if the physical laws would be designed, they would have to be designed intelligently, which is something we can't expect from a religional notion of God of Old testament.
To have at least a slight idea where this question leads, you'd have to have a mystical experience, or several of them. According to a wikipedia definition, this may be a tautology as well, but this article is really good article. According to such themes, a current fashion (despised on this forum) of a consciousness affecting the sub-atomary world, is very promising and will lead to a development.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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LOL , L , "We are a way for

LOL , L ,

"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself. " - Carl Sagan .... 

check this Prophet out thoroughly too  .....     

 


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:LOL ,

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

LOL , L ,

"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself. " - Carl Sagan .... 

check this Prophet out thoroughly too  .....     

It seems, that Michael Straczynski, the creator of a sci-fi serial Babylon 5, is also Sagan's fan. One of main alien races there, Minbari, has exactly the same religion  
(so far, I've listened a part of one Sagan's audio book on atheist page somewhere around)

Besides that, I've read somewhere (B. Creme's materials probably), that what we see here, the purpose of the universe, or First source, is to explore the full range of frequencies. In a sense, that material and adjacent "frequencies" of existence are only small part of the universe.
Yes, these are informations which can be disagreed with, but nobody can ever disagree with mystical experience, this is something, which just is   But when it passes, the mind tries to explain it, I have met a man, who despite of his many mystical experiences considered them all as a trick of his brain, that's a sad story.

"Stone the unbelievers. THC shall enlight their minds!  " - my inner voice

 

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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razorphreak wrote:greek

razorphreak wrote:

greek goddess wrote:
Let me try to approach this from a slightly different angle. Scientists have asked why photosynthesis happened. And they have come to the conclusion thus far that it is because of a mutation that allowed bacteria to exploit photons as an energy source. I did also include the "how" in an attempt to clarify things for you, which, in hindsight, was maybe a mistake, because it appears to have confused you instead.

I was trying to explain that this is not a satisfactory answer for you, because you're anthropomorphizing nature, as if it's a conscious force that makes conscious decisions as to how the world should be, when this is not the case. There is no "why" in nature in the same way that there's a "why" for losing weight, or deciding to become a writer, etc. There is no human intent.

I really think that if you understood scientific processes better, especially evolution, this would be an easier concept for you to grasp.

I will admit that I am no expert.  I don't pretend to be.

I find it so odd that no matter my explanation it seems that I have to continue to restate what I've been saying over and over and over again.  As if it neither makes sense of it is simply not compatible to anyone's method of thinking.

You say that I am anthropomorphizing nature?  How?  Because I find it miraculous that something in nature exists?  Your answer, as I suppose is everyone else's, was a "random event." 

I do want to thank you though at this point; you've finally told me what no one else has - you do not accept that anything could be called a miracle.

This also means that the subsequent posts attempting to defend the OP were all bandwagon posts attempting to defend something that no one believed in to begin with.  I consider that very ridiculous and deceitful in that under the guise of "rational debate" you ask a question that irregardless of any response, there would have never been an acceptable answer.  If no one responding believes in miracles, what is the point in asking about them or even debating them?

But again thank you GG.  At least you were direct with me.  I do not agree with you but I accept that as an answer.  The thread I directed you to about evolution has my response in regard to mutation.

greek goddess wrote:
Well that's an interesting tactic... bring up evolution and God, and then deny that those topics are involved in the debate? The word miracle implies a supernatural cause - which could certainly encompass a god. I don't see how we're going to discuss the topic of miracles without mentioning a god.

That's why I was trying to use examples that could be related to by those on this thread since no one here is accepting there is a God.  It would be pointless to argue anything that deals with God giving gifts (even though I frequently stated that I believe they are gifts from God) if no one believes that God exists.  I was trying to state things outside the subject of God but your point is clear; miracles only occur with God and since you believe there is no God, there are no miracles.

greek goddess wrote:
It's like asking why the sky is blue... physics tells us why the sky is blue. But you want to know why blue was chosen. It wasn't chosen. It's the random result of some physical processes. That's what I'm telling you.

Photosynthesis wasn't chosen. It's the random result of physical processes.

Humans weren't chosen. We're the random result of physical processes....

Is this making sense yet?

As I stated, your position makes perfect sense.  I'm not sure why no one else could simply say what you've said.  I do not agree because of some of the particulars but that is not the point of this thread.

As I said, no answer will satisfy you. I gave you a similar answer that you blew off (granted, I'm not nearly as pretty as the goddess).

I believe all you want to do is stop short of looking for answers and settle for "Why? It's a miraculous act of God." Can't have a God of the gaps without gaps, after all. You need to keep those open.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Curious

I'm curious - what "proof" would compel you to re-examine your beliefs..??

I'll throw this question out to anybody who cares to respond.

 

 

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible".

St. Thomas Aquinas
1225 - 1274


pauljohntheskeptic
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Luminon wrote:Yes, these are

Luminon wrote:


Yes, these are informations which can be disagreed with, but nobody can ever disagree with mystical experience, this is something, which just is   But when it passes, the mind tries to explain it, I have met a man, who despite of his many mystical experiences considered them all as a trick of his brain, that's a sad story.

You are starting to sound like Paisley be careful. I certainly disagree with assuming mystical experiences are explained by God, a universal mind, pantheism or anything else related to group consciousness. If that's where you're going with your thoughts go see Paisley's 1000+ posting. Here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13045

Until otherwise proved as far as I'm concerned mystic experiences are a product of someone's fantasy centers in their own brain. Even if they have unexplained occurrences and even I have, that is not a reason to start building altars and praying to the sky gods.

Luminon wrote:

"Stone the unbelievers. THC shall enlight their minds!  " - my inner voice 

  I'm not sure why you want to resort to violence? Have all your arguments failed and you feel killing is the answer?

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


pauljohntheskeptic
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razorphreak wrote:I'm not

razorphreak wrote:

I'm not sure why no one else could simply say what you've said.  I do not agree because of some of the particulars but that is not the point of this thread.

This thread has been diverted miles from where it started and the whole point of the OP. The question was why are there not miracles being performed as in the last few verses of Mark 16. Your divergence into calling everything a miracle had nothing at all to do with the original OP. Mark 16 says basically they can wave a magic wand and do things that are normally not possible in our space-time reality. You have decided to consider everything to be a miracle. See the problem sir?

Many posts ago in #57 I suggested the end of Mark 16, verse 9-20 were fabrications added later. You and the other theists decided to ignore that. Since you did, I have ignored you ever since. If you have something relevant to why magic hand waving and praying to Yahweh or Jesus no longer produces physics and reality defying miracles please indicate your reasons.

I clearly made my position clear that things I do not understand I leave in a box called I don't know. The box doesn't mean it is God that did it. Saying I don't know seems awfully hard for a lot of people especially God believers who instead substitute God did it. All things can and will be explained someday though we may not be here to experience it. That is no reason to say God did it, just say I don't know. As knowledge develops sometime in the future evolved generations of our descendants may figure this shit out if their ancestors (us) don't blow the fucking Earth to pieces first.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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johnwhardin wrote:I'm

johnwhardin wrote:

I'm curious - what "proof" would compel you to re-examine your beliefs..??

I'll throw this question out to anybody who cares to respond.

The IDF 'Merkava' Main Battle Tank is a real thing. I could provide evidence to you to support my claim through photos, physically showing the vehicle to you, providing technical schematics, overviewing combat history documents, showing financial records, doing interviews with tanks crews and technicians, etc.

Taken as a whole, this is a more than sufficient body of evidence that yes, the Merkava is an actual vehicle that is in actual use in the world.

 

This isn't rocket science. It's the basic stuff. Can you physically show me a miracle in progress, and walk me through a hypothesis of how the miracle works? Can we reproduce the miracle (in order for it to even have practical application, this is a must)? Do we have a comprehensive documented history of miracles that isn't largely contradictory? Do the miracles have simpler explanations than what is being alleged of them? Do we have good, solid, professional testimony regarding miracles?

There. That's a start, anyway. We'll talk more after you've come back with this stuff. 

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Hi razorphreak, I'm

Hi razorphreak,

 

I'm addressing you because you seem the most active theist in this discussion.  I've read through three or four pages of arguments, and if I'm honest I haven't bothered with the rest because I was getting bored, and I can see the problem with the discussions is what counts as a miracle.  You have argued with a perception based view that all occurences we can regard as wonderous are miraculous.  That's fine.  However, the original question was what has happened to biblical miracles which I and many others take to be supernatural occurences.

If it helps I'll give a real life example.

There is a gentleman working in my University, who's name I won't use for sake of his privacy, that shares the same atheistic ideas as myself.  He's working towards a PhD in Pharmacology.  So?  His family is originally from Darfur - specifically he's from the Massaleit ethnic group.  His family left the country in 1984 and moved here for a better life.  Thankfully they made it.  He has been able to find a life of privilege that many of his countrymen have never had.  Now they are dying in their hundreds.  A genocide perpetrated by a military regime.  It makes this gentleman sick to his stomach.

This man is an atheist yet he has told me that he would do anything to help the people of his childhood home, including asking God.  He admits that, in an act of anger and frustration, he walked into a church at the start of this year and asked God for help.

 

So here's my question to you and the other theists.  This is a pilgrim child of privilege who has his eyes open to the suffering of an oppressed people.  Where is his staff of power?  Where are the rivers turning to blood?  Why won't God allow him to rain hail and fire down on Pharoh... I mean, al-Bashir?

Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss