What ever happened to god's miracles?

Renshia
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What ever happened to god's miracles?

One thing I do not understand, and admit it was a huge part in my departure from christianity is where are all the signs and wonders that god is said to be capable of?

For me I actively fight against religion because the entire structure is based on this god that in the past is claimed to have been extremely active in messing around in humanities affairs. Basically getting his point across to us dullards, as in old testament stuff. Even active in more modern times.. with new testament miracles. But then ever since man has developed the ability to group information together.. Poof no sign of god…

Where are the blind healed?.... Where are the lame that walk?…. where are the hungry fed with just a couple fish….

Why is the world is the UN food agency worried about shortages. There should be at least a couple believers that could pass a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish around and feed them surely?


Show me one person that was completely blind, crippled or on a death bed with cancer that was healed. One truly verifiable miracle. Why would god feel the necessity’s to send his son down to die and dispatch his disciples into the world to and then just disapear?

In the bible in Mark V16:15-18 the bible states;


“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Seems mighty fishy that as soon as we would all be able to witness this awesome power of our said Lord he retracts his influence and expects everything to be based on faith….

I may not be an overly smart person, but he states the credentials of his followers,  where are the signs that "will accompany those who believe?

I spent a number of years devotely following a chritsian faith… I never seen a miracle that did not have an obvious explanation. I never did see the blind healed. Hell never even met anyone that has or at least could prove they have.

So where is your god, what is he doing taking a holiday on Bazor?


Really if people don’t use there common sense and see religion for the fruit it doesn't bear, then i think they really do deserve to be slaves.

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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Joe_Canon wrote:I did not

Joe_Canon wrote:

I did not ask you Magilum.

F*CK -- it's KWEK (Sapient -- can you make the background pink or something for this section?). Hold on... let me rephrase my reply.

Respectable sir, may I remind you that this is a public forum, over which you don't have editorial control. If a private conversation is preferable, you may make use of our fine private messaging system, or your own e-mail mechanism.


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Duly noted.  And with all

Duly noted.  And with all due respect, I shall await a public answer.  But regarding your question-- a negative response would not have much, if any, significance.  I would just as soon not waste any one's time by posting testimonials nobody would want to hear anyway.


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and my apologies.

That was curt.  I do apologize.


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Joe_Canon wrote:Renshia,

Joe_Canon wrote:

Renshia, would you believe the miracles if you heard about them?  I'm afraid if you cannot, then hearing about a million of them wouldn't help at all.  I say this because I have heard of a number of miracles, and not just "everyday" ones. 

Well joe, I think it is a hell of an assumption from you that I do not believe in miracles....

I just don't believe in a miracle performed by god.

I believe sometime a person gets "lucky". I believe people create their own luck with their intent, and because of this things that we could be labeled as miracles do happen.

I was in an accident once in which I an army 6x6. I was in plunged through the ice and my only escape was to swim under the truck and dig myself out. -15C. in temp, and around 1/2 a mile to the nearest land, and i didn't even lose anything to frost bite. I am still alive.. that's a miracle... but I know it had nothing to do with god..

It was quick thinking on my fathers part and my pure intent to live.. I can tell you this much... god wasn't there pulling me out.. Now i am sure that you will think God saved me. But really it was just quick thinking and proper preparation.. and I was extremely proud of our ability to rise above the situation and handle it. Call it a miracle if you want.. i do.. but that is only a term for great fortune as far as I am concerned. Great fortune because of my intent to live and action to do something about it. I guess I could have just prayed when it happened, but then I would be dead.

Proper prep and the determination that came from me to survive.. not some miracle from some petty tyrant that has temper tantrums.

And not evidence of god.

what amazes me is how much energy is wasted by the theists aversion to the question..

Well first.. we need to quantify what it is.. how big is it... blah blah blah.... I have simply asked what happened to the signs that would follow those that believe, then to show what signs I meant by quoting the verse.. and yet no one seems to be able to come up with even an inkling of anything except excuses to avoid.. and nothing verifiable. But everybody's friends aunt patty seems to have been healed from a back ache.

 

oh and one post telling how god wasted a miracle on a guy that doesn't even believe, so a person might misunderstand and think it was the devil doing his last times trick.

heck from the last few posts I think there is a guy spending tonight in study of mark 16 to try and complicate things more or find wiggle room to avoid the answer again. I beginning to think you guys could complicate the lords prayer...

but then when you got nothing you got nothing...

oh and in answer to your question sure I would believe they happened.. to a degree.. if you could provide verifiable proof. Heck could it really be that difficult. All a guy would need would be a before and after report from a doctor.

 

 

 

 

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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Well...

I was not assuming really one way or the other.  I was just wondering if you had ruled out the possibility or not.  And I would agree that what occurred in your life was not a "miracle" as Christians typically define it.  It was exceptional ability and luck.  But the most recent one I heard (and I know this is anecdotal, just so everyone understands)?  A man's blindness was healed.  The crowd that brought him could not believe it.  Everyone cheered when they realized he was no longer blind.  A doctor's report would be difficult to attain, you're right. 

I am assuming these are the kind of miracles you're talking about? 


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Renshia wrote:what amazes me

Renshia wrote:
what amazes me is how much energy is wasted by the theists aversion to the question...

heck from the last few posts I think there is a guy spending tonight in study of mark 16 to try and complicate things more or find wiggle room to avoid the answer again. I beginning to think you guys could complicate the lords prayer...

but then when you got nothing you got nothing...

Well since this is the part that was most directed at me, this is what I'm going to respond to.

First there is no aversion.  I consider it more of an aversion when I see atheists use fallacy arguments instead of (a) attempting to understand the point being made and (b) asking questions to see if they understand the other side of the debate instead of jumping to conclusions.  50 dollar words are more diversionary to the topic than at least trying to reply (case in point, jcgadfly).

I don't appreciate the fact that you think any response to Mark 16 would be a way to "complicate" anything.  I'm not trying to avoid you or a response.  After all, you did ask about it didn't you?  So why would you ask then run the other direction since you assume you already know?  So right now I wonder if I should even waste any time responding.  Do you HONESTLY care to hear an answer?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Renshia wrote:In the bible

Renshia wrote:

In the bible in Mark V16:15-18 the bible states;


“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Something you should consider, the oldest copies of Mark 16 all ended at Mark 16:8. The verses you question as to miracles were added in later centuries. See "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D Ehrman pp 65-68. Many Bibles have footnotes indicating this difference.

See:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

My research into this a few years ago took me to this information. Mark 16:9-20 was added somewhere in the 4th century. These verses were not in original versions and were later added. Codex Vaticanus(B) ends at Mark 16:8 as well as Codex Sinaiticus(Aleph) around 330 CE. Apparently by 400 CE there were 4 different versions of the final chapter of Mark. Most  modern Bibles have the warning disclaimer to tell the reader the most reliable manuscripts end at Mark 16:8.

The other Gospels do not have the Disciples-Apostles receiving these instructions.

Perhaps it was never there, which is why it does not occur.

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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   >ME< Jesus,  GOD

   >ME< Jesus,  GOD man,  ONE with the cosmos (father), HATES the DEVIL'S Bibull book of 2 testaments of deception, spreading the devils message of separation, fear, and guilt. This is heaven NOW. There is no MASTER but YOU as all is ONE ..... I must now go to the temple of idol worship and smash the place to bits  .....     

..... and stop worshiping me jesus ..... did you not hear my SIMPLE message ??? No, you Xains didn't get it ..... but I understand , and I weep ..... for you do not know what you do ..... as you killed me and still kill my message today ..... sincerely,  me Jesus

P.S. good luck


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Exorcism & more etc etc ..

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
Edit: There is a very interesting TV program on Wednesdays, 10PM. It's called 'The Real Exorcist'. It's real, and will give you something to think about. It's on Virgin 1.

primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/the-real-exorcist-coming-to-virgin-1/

 

Well obviously no one ever told you... TV is never real..

How do you know this is real.. because of the name?

what have you done to verify this is real?..

Have you been there to see this exorcist being performed?

Did you know any of the people involved?

That is like saying reality TV is real... it is however just edited to tell a story the way they want the world to see it...

I belonged to a church called the Cleft in the Rock. one Sunday it was announced by the pastor that one of the member of the church that was having a hard time staying sober was to have his demon cast out at the next service. Well that evening all showed up.. even the guy that had the demon.. well towards the end of the service it was decided  that it was time to cast out this demon...well  the guy squirmed yelled growled and the Preacher yelled in jesus name for the demon to come out.. but all it was was a ply for the guy to have an excuse for the shitty things he did...

it was all a farce...

no man I have been on the road your on I was only looking to find joy and happiness in my life.. I thought i had it until I saw that I had to give up my reason to accept by faith what I new was wrong...

We have an instinct within us.. call it a gut feeling... this is an instinct for self preservation... but just because you know what is right or wrong doesn't mean it is god speaking...Give your self a little credit... maybe your just smarter that you give your self credit for..

This is one main thorn in my collar about religion... this is why it is reductive..

when ever the religious do or have good things happen.. all the glory goes to god, but when something goes wrong.. then it is all your fault... why is it wrong to accept responsibility for all good you have done.. and if he is responsible for the good why is he not responsible for some of the bad...

seems very lopsided. Always giving the good away and always heaping the bad unto your own shoulders..

 

Well.

My father used to do exorcisms. We were watching the programme and he pointed out many things which happened when he used to do exorcisms. Apart from the fact that the guy doing the show was using Bibles and Crosses to push against the possessed people .. which he said was probably just for show, and that is not needed..

But in the show, the demons speak through the people. My father told me that was real, and happened every so often when he did exorcisms. Everything was done in the same way, everything was just how it happened when my father was doing it.

So I believe that show, is real.

 

 

There are many quotes in the Bible which say how towards the end days, which are close - people will be becoming so much more doubtful in God, the devil will have such a grip over the world and how people view Christianity. How people will become scared of the seas, the skies. How there will eventually be one person to rule the world, the anti-christ. It talks of everyone holding some form of identification on themselves at all time - and eventually everyone will have to have a 'brand' in order to buy or sell goods.

That sounds exactly like what the world is walking into. Plans have already gone ahead for a leader of the whole of Europe - the English government created a law several years ago, where any major decisions, such as moving to the Euro currency .. or having a European Government, would be voted on by the public. The Government quickly found out that the majority of England didn't want a European leader .. but the Government did. So they pushed the law aside. Tony Blair has been nominated as the first one to lead..

You've got "people scared of the seas and skies" .. well for starters you have Global Warming. All this nonsence about sea levels rising. People losing houses .. it's not really scary when you think about it, but it's been all bigged up by the Government and people are all worried.

Then you've got general terrorism which has really kicked in during this past decade ...

And plans for everyone to hold a form of identity are already going ahead. In America I believe aswell as over here in England. The Government are REALLY pushing for it to go ahead - but again, no one wants it. And there are no advantages. But the Government just "wants" it.

The world is so influenced by the devil.

Theist


magilum
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Walsh wrote:Renshia

Walsh wrote:

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
Edit: There is a very interesting TV program on Wednesdays, 10PM. It's called 'The Real Exorcist'. It's real, and will give you something to think about. It's on Virgin 1.

primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/the-real-exorcist-coming-to-virgin-1/

 

Well obviously no one ever told you... TV is never real..

How do you know this is real.. because of the name?

what have you done to verify this is real?..

Have you been there to see this exorcist being performed?

Did you know any of the people involved?

That is like saying reality TV is real... it is however just edited to tell a story the way they want the world to see it...

I belonged to a church called the Cleft in the Rock. one Sunday it was announced by the pastor that one of the member of the church that was having a hard time staying sober was to have his demon cast out at the next service. Well that evening all showed up.. even the guy that had the demon.. well towards the end of the service it was decided  that it was time to cast out this demon...well  the guy squirmed yelled growled and the Preacher yelled in jesus name for the demon to come out.. but all it was was a ply for the guy to have an excuse for the shitty things he did...

it was all a farce...

no man I have been on the road your on I was only looking to find joy and happiness in my life.. I thought i had it until I saw that I had to give up my reason to accept by faith what I new was wrong...

We have an instinct within us.. call it a gut feeling... this is an instinct for self preservation... but just because you know what is right or wrong doesn't mean it is god speaking...Give your self a little credit... maybe your just smarter that you give your self credit for..

This is one main thorn in my collar about religion... this is why it is reductive..

when ever the religious do or have good things happen.. all the glory goes to god, but when something goes wrong.. then it is all your fault... why is it wrong to accept responsibility for all good you have done.. and if he is responsible for the good why is he not responsible for some of the bad...

seems very lopsided. Always giving the good away and always heaping the bad unto your own shoulders..

Well.

My father used to do exorcisms. We were watching the programme and he pointed out many things which happened when he used to do exorcisms. Apart from the fact that the guy doing the show was using Bibles and Crosses to push against the possessed people .. which he said was probably just for show, and that is not needed..

But in the show, the demons speak through the people. My father told me that was real, and happened every so often when he did exorcisms. Everything was done in the same way, everything was just how it happened when my father was doing it.

So I believe that show, is real.

That's hysterical.

Curious thing, that word. It used to be considered a medical condition in women, which was only relieved through orgasm. So you had these sexually-frustrated Victorian women, and their doctors feverishly diddling them to relieve their hysteria. I'd heard vibrators were invented to reduce the time and labor involved in the process.

Anyway, it's funny how when you have an artificially-contorted society these weird little manifestations appear to tell you "you're doing it wrong." I wonder what other ways the frustration of an uptight social group might manifest.

Walsh wrote:
 

There are many quotes in the Bible which say how towards the end days, which are close - people will be becoming so much more doubtful in God, the devil will have such a grip over the world and how people view Christianity. How people will become scared of the seas, the skies. How there will eventually be one person to rule the world, the anti-christ. It talks of everyone holding some form of identification on themselves at all time - and eventually everyone will have to have a 'brand' in order to buy or sell goods.

That sounds exactly like what the world is walking into. Plans have already gone ahead for a leader of the whole of Europe - the English government created a law several years ago, where any major decisions, such as moving to the Euro currency .. or having a European Government, would be voted on by the public. The Government quickly found out that the majority of England didn't want a European leader .. but the Government did. So they pushed the law aside. Tony Blair has been nominated as the first one to lead..

You've got "people scared of the seas and skies" .. well for starters you have Global Warming. All this nonsence about sea levels rising. People losing houses .. it's not really scary when you think about it, but it's been all bigged up by the Government and people are all worried.

Then you've got general terrorism which has really kicked in during this past decade ...

And plans for everyone to hold a form of identity are already going ahead. In America I believe aswell as over here in England. The Government are REALLY pushing for it to go ahead - but again, no one wants it. And there are no advantages. But the Government just "wants" it.

The world is so influenced by the devil.

Good to know it's not just the US that's got religious fundamentalist knuckleheads.


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Quote:There are many quotes

Quote:
There are many quotes in the Bible which say how towards the end days, which are close - people will be becoming so much more doubtful in God, the devil will have such a grip over the world and how people view Christianity. How people will become scared of the seas, the skies. How there will eventually be one person to rule the world, the anti-christ. It talks of everyone holding some form of identification on themselves at all time - and eventually everyone will have to have a 'brand' in order to buy or sell goods.

That sounds exactly like what the world is walking into. Plans have already gone ahead for a leader of the whole of Europe - the English government created a law several years ago, where any major decisions, such as moving to the Euro currency .. or having a European Government, would be voted on by the public. The Government quickly found out that the majority of England didn't want a European leader .. but the Government did. So they pushed the law aside. Tony Blair has been nominated as the first one to lead..

You've got "people scared of the seas and skies" .. well for starters you have Global Warming. All this nonsence about sea levels rising. People losing houses .. it's not really scary when you think about it, but it's been all bigged up by the Government and people are all worried.

Then you've got general terrorism which has really kicked in during this past decade ...

And plans for everyone to hold a form of identity are already going ahead. In America I believe aswell as over here in England. The Government are REALLY pushing for it to go ahead - but again, no one wants it. And there are no advantages. But the Government just "wants" it.

The world is so influenced by the devil.

You know why people like you piss me off?

When things finally do begin a downward spiral, as the Earth becomes used-up beyond it's capacity for supporting industrial civilization and, eventually, human life altogether (however far down the road that may be), I just fucking know that there you'll be: running around outside and tilting at windmills, encouraging everyone to do the same, spouting this kind of garbage and insisting that the conditions around you are all a 'sign'. While practical people are dying, fighting, figuring and otherwise doing what they can to curb disaster, you and the the rest of the 'faithful' will just be standing there with smug grins and raised arms, wasting space at best, waiting for Jesus to come and rapture you away.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
There are many quotes in the Bible which say how towards the end days, which are close - people will be becoming so much more doubtful in God, the devil will have such a grip over the world and how people view Christianity. How people will become scared of the seas, the skies. How there will eventually be one person to rule the world, the anti-christ. It talks of everyone holding some form of identification on themselves at all time - and eventually everyone will have to have a 'brand' in order to buy or sell goods.

That sounds exactly like what the world is walking into. Plans have already gone ahead for a leader of the whole of Europe - the English government created a law several years ago, where any major decisions, such as moving to the Euro currency .. or having a European Government, would be voted on by the public. The Government quickly found out that the majority of England didn't want a European leader .. but the Government did. So they pushed the law aside. Tony Blair has been nominated as the first one to lead..

You've got "people scared of the seas and skies" .. well for starters you have Global Warming. All this nonsence about sea levels rising. People losing houses .. it's not really scary when you think about it, but it's been all bigged up by the Government and people are all worried.

Then you've got general terrorism which has really kicked in during this past decade ...

And plans for everyone to hold a form of identity are already going ahead. In America I believe aswell as over here in England. The Government are REALLY pushing for it to go ahead - but again, no one wants it. And there are no advantages. But the Government just "wants" it.

The world is so influenced by the devil.

You know why people like you piss me off?

When things finally do begin a downward spiral, as the Earth becomes used-up beyond it's capacity for supporting industrial civilization and, eventually, human life altogether (however far down the road that may be), I just fucking know that there you'll be: running around outside and tilting at windmills, encouraging everyone to do the same, spouting this kind of garbage and insisting that the conditions around you are all a 'sign'. While practical people are dying, fighting, figuring and otherwise doing what they can to curb disaster, you and the the rest of the 'faithful' will just be standing there with smug grins and raised arms, wasting space at best, waiting for Jesus to come and rapture you away.

 

 

lol. That would be funny. =] I'd like that..

Theist


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Atheists try 2 degrade anyone who believes in God

Jeffrick wrote:
Your comments are the same as every smilley wide eyed airhead ever uses, they do not relate to reality. They relate to a time in human experience, generations ago when few people were literate fewer yet understood the basic workings of the world around them. "The sun rises, blame god!" "Earthquakes, floods famine happen, blame god!" Today the real reasons are easily explained by any Third grader without resorting to gods. Would that you were as smart as a third grader. The mirecle of feeding the hungry, (done it myself)is not a mystical revelation of the spirit it is the sore muscles. Has for the joke (very funny) shows how blind religion is hazzardous to your health, and the three potential 'saviors' were people doing their JOBS, not an act of god.

Why do atheists have to contstantly try to put people down as being ignorant if they believe in God?  We all know the most intelligent people in the world are not those who do not believe in God, so why say such ignorant things? I mean, like 95% of the people in the USA believe in God.  So, you actually think the 5% that do not believe in God are the most intelligent?  Sounds like some people are very insecure about their own beliefs.


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MeInUSA

   I do not constantly try to put religious people down, they do that so well without my help.  Giving your god credit for a Doctors or an EMT's skills and dedication completely ignoring the study and training they went through does a great discredit to such people,  and that is ignorent.

   Your numbers on believers and not believers is inaccurate, but if it satisfies your insecurity to use them, then continue to use them.

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MeInUSA wrote:Jeffrick

MeInUSA wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:
Your comments are the same as every smilley wide eyed airhead ever uses, they do not relate to reality. They relate to a time in human experience, generations ago when few people were literate fewer yet understood the basic workings of the world around them. "The sun rises, blame god!" "Earthquakes, floods famine happen, blame god!" Today the real reasons are easily explained by any Third grader without resorting to gods. Would that you were as smart as a third grader. The mirecle of feeding the hungry, (done it myself)is not a mystical revelation of the spirit it is the sore muscles. Has for the joke (very funny) shows how blind religion is hazzardous to your health, and the three potential 'saviors' were people doing their JOBS, not an act of god.

Why do atheists have to contstantly try to put people down as being ignorant if they believe in God?  We all know the most intelligent people in the world are not those who do not believe in God, so why say such ignorant things? I mean, like 95% of the people in the USA believe in God.  So, you actually think the 5% that do not believe in God are the most intelligent?  Sounds like some people are very insecure about their own beliefs.

Belief in God in the industrialized western world, for those not in circumstances of poverty or whose knowledge of the world is not tied to the whims of religious parents, is ignorant in light of the wealth of information currently at their fingertips. They choose to opt in favor of a magical creation story instead of evolutionary theory and/or the primeval atom theory, and that's quite ignorant (holding a belief even after the evidence has contradicted it).

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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This has gone astray a bit...

This whole post was dedicated to finding evidence of a miracle, which no one has given. This is much like many other posts I've been to. Its always xtians dancing around a question by saying "Well, isn't this amazing? You think God didn't do that?". Never do they give credible evidence. Sure, they make you think (the intelligent ones), but you find more logic to go around that.

It baffles me why they can't see from the atheist point of view, but like Kevin said, they still believe against the mountain of evidence against them. I was once an xtian, but my brain kept finding holes. Then they got bigger, and here I am.

Thank god (ha ha!) for the internet, as now I read a lot about both sides. Atheism is much more credible. Back to the miracles, no one has those powers. As it was said earlier, it would be much more televised if it were. Too bad xtians can't see the holes they have blinded themselves from.


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Yes, Leeboy:  spot on.As

Yes, Leeboy:  spot on.

As for the OP, I have never heard a xian be able to give a proper response to that chapter & verse in Mark. Either what the ol' JC said was 100% true or it wasn't. Read those verses again:

Mark V16:15-18:


“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

FALSE! Does not happen.

Point #2: Razorfreak does not know his Bible, so I stayed out of this until now. Smiling

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Love it

You gotta love the fact that the bible is non-contradictory (it says so inside), yet by giving very specific attributes to believers it is contradicting itself by not allowing those things to happen. Sure, I have picked up many a snake with my bare hands (and some more tricky ones required a stick like ol' Steve Irwin) but when I believed I didn't heal anyone, or cast out demons, or survive drinking poison (mind you, I have not tried, for the implications of failure are rather grim).

Maybe this is just a way that the bible is proving itself right, but also showing that no one truly believes, or they are misled. Perhaps Satan corrupted it? Who knows for sure. But one thing is for sure. No one can commit miracles, and no one probably ever did.


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..

I guess the miracles aren't much popular in the media. I have heard of dozens of churches in Russian villages, where statues or pictures of Madonna wept the tears of liquids like olive oil, for example. Locals usually stores these liquids and uses them for healing, there are always some "miraculous" healings around. Or recently, I have seen a photos of a potato, which some women cut through and there was a very precise image of Jesus inside. I've cut through a lot of potatoes in my life, but never saw anything like this one.
It's a similar thing, like some hinduish statuettes drank hectolitres of milk (but this was also in TV), just for christians. Muslims have their miracles too, for example, one muslim had cut through some fruit and there were seeds shaped in form of arabian writing of "Allah" or "God". Yeah, photos were there too. Something similar also happened with one sandwich.
Yes, miracles are in the world, specially in last decades and the number is still increasing, they just never get to the media, believing in anything higher than us isn't a good for most of marketing strategies. Even churches usually keeps away from this. Only independent press documents these events more thoroughly.
There's no logical explanation for miracles, when we don't understand something, we say it's magic, and of course, magic doesn't exist. Well, no problem, these miracles are so frequent for people to see it for themselves, there's no other way for a person using the brain. Feel free to look at any statue's base for an oil or blood hose, leading to eyes from the inside.

I think, the fact, that both people of any and none religion experiences their share of miracles, is very significant. It's a sign of not dividing human beings on believers and unbelievers, a sign of acceptable tolerance, not of a jealous sky daddy.

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dassercha wrote:FALSE! Does

dassercha wrote:
FALSE! Does not happen.

Point #2: Razorfreak does not know his Bible, so I stayed out of this until now. Smiling

 

What do you want from me?  Do you want to hear my answer?  Do you want to know what it is that I understand and how I've interpreted those verses?  Do you HONESTLY think it would make any difference in this discussion?

My last post, I stated that I can give you how I understand it but no one responded to me.

What I think this whole discussion amounts to is simply asking for the "signs" that were needed 2000 years ago to see them today just the same.  As I've said many many times concerning deciphering the bible, you must understand its context and the time period.  But, I'm assuming, that isn't what you want to hear or will accept.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:My last

razorphreak wrote:

My last post, I stated that I can give you how I understand it but no one responded to me.

What I think this whole discussion amounts to is simply asking for the "signs" that were needed 2000 years ago to see them today just the same.  As I've said many many times concerning deciphering the bible, you must understand its context and the time period.  But, I'm assuming, that isn't what you want to hear or will accept.

Actually as a general note I responded with the fact Mark ended at 16:8 in early manuscripts. As Mark is the only Gospel with these instructions to the Apostles and verses 9-20 of Mark 16 were considered suspect, I suggested it was never there at all. See Post #57. If the Mark 16 ending was added by well meaning 2nd or 3rd century Christians then there were never miracles in the first place so not having them today would be not a surprise. I expected someone would react to this statement but no one did.

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...

I always thought, that miracles should be expected at the "end of time". The "end of world" is supposed to be a bad translation, "end of time" is more precise, and it refers to the end of Pisces age and start of the Aquarius age. It's quite precise way of timing, the heavenly mechanics are the same for all cultures.
I think even Jesus used an astronomical reference, when he told his apostles to follow a 'man carrying water' into a 'house'. A horoscope is divided on 12 "houses", each one assigned to a sign, and our ecliptics currently leaves the pisces house. It's the end of one time, not the world itself.
At this moment, there should be "signs on the land and sky", which are today really plentiful.
As far as I know, there is another of the misunderstandings. After the expected "second coming of Christ" there's believed to be the "end of world" and Doom's day, or apocalypse, or whatever. In fact, there should be at least a "thousand years of God's kingdom on Earth" before that.
If any theists sees the miracles, and thinks, that Christ will come to rescue them, they're wrong. We're going nowhere any soon, from that mess we left around, no matter in what we believe or disbelieve. The "signs" are here for us to realize that. Christ prefers secular humanism over religional escapism Smiling

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razorphreak wrote: What I

razorphreak wrote:

 

What I think this whole discussion amounts to is simply asking for the "signs" that were needed 2000 years ago to see them today just the same.  As I've said many many times concerning deciphering the bible, you must understand its context and the time period. 

How utterly ridiculous.  What impact would miracles from a Jewish god have upon pagan peoples who already had their own gods who also performed miracles ?  ( remember pharaoh's  own sorcerers duplicated the same miracles of Moses and Aaron.  Exodus 7: 10-12 )

2000 years ago the ancient world was dominated by belief in miraculous intervention.  They would not be baffled or overawed by such claims.  "Oh your Christian god can performs magic tricks, so what, our gods do that as well. Next !"

 

Miracles would have the most impact upon people living in the modern scientific era.....and not upon those of the ancient world who already believed in them.

 

Think about it: 

Supernatural miracles would completely offset the claims of scientific knowledge and be an indispuatable counter-balance in support of spiritual beliefs !

 

...yet your god was too stupid  to grasp that blatantly simple concept.    Go figure.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:How

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
How utterly ridiculous.  What impact would miracles from a Jewish god have upon pagan peoples who already had their own gods who also performed miracles ?  ( remember pharaoh's  own sorcerers duplicated the same miracles of Moses and Aaron.  Exodus 7: 10-12 )

Ah, so context means nothing to you?  How exactly should I expect to hold a discussion when no matter the explanation, it's always with the response of "how ridiculous."

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
2000 years ago the ancient world was dominated by belief in miraculous intervention.  They would not be baffled or overawed by such claims.  "Oh your Christian god can performs magic tricks, so what, our gods do that as well. Next !"

Yes and if you continue to read in Acts, they received them.  At that time, it was needed.  I fail to see, since we have record of them, how they were continue to be needed today.

And before your retort, remember this thread is about what the bible states, not about your opinions of the bible itself.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Miracles would have the most impact upon people living in the modern scientific era.....and not upon those of the ancient world who already believed in them. 

Think about it: 

Supernatural miracles would completely offset the claims of scientific knowledge and be an indispuatable counter-balance in support of spiritual beliefs ! 

...yet your god was too stupid  to grasp that blatantly simple concept.    Go figure.

My friend, if they did indeed believe, then the ENTIRE New Testament would not have been written because Israel's faith would not have required Jesus. 

That being said, a "miracle" still holds the definition of "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs."  Things that end up being explained via science are not miracles nor were they ever.  Human flight, space travel, the fact that we went from walking to horse to automobiles, are not miracles, they are simply humanity using the miracle of knowledge and the miracle of having the ability to learn.  Science has never explained how it is that our brain works.  Yet at no time does it enter your mind that having the ability to think is a miracle from God.  From from anything to be called "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs," right?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Miracles would have the

most impact upon people living in the modern scientific era

.....and not upon those of the ancient world who already believed in them.

Think about it: 

Supernatural miracles would completely offset the claims of scientific knowledge and be an indispuatable counter-balance in support of spiritual beliefs !


I have to say, there are no miracles, or anything supernatural. Everything what exists, is natural. Things like 'supernatural' or 'miracles' are effects of scientific areas of knowledge, which are not yet discovered or approved at this moment, but most probably will be. There is no 'spiritual' opposite or alternative to science, both researches different aspects of the same thing, the world. A desire of the 'spiritual aspect' researchers is to unify these both areas of knowledge into one, which will:
1) bring new, promising expansion of scientific knowledge
2) allow a physical realization of world knowledge and distribute a benefit from it to world public.

However, if you think, that 'supernatural miracles' would have such an effect in this era, you should notice one detail. Current scientific community is in power and controls most of media, considered as credible. The cult of white coats has just louder mouth, shortly said, and it's resistant towards a change, just like any other institution. Science changes itself, but usually from within, when there is effort of it's members. As far as I know, it's quite resistant to outer influences. I'll maybe exaggerate it now, but could a group of common people convince a Pope to change and correct some texts in Bible?
I mean, this is what theologists themselves decide, the process of Bible translations, versions, and so on, common people just less or more believes in their versions of Bible, provided by the religional hierarchy.

I think, that explaining everything by currently approved scientific knowledge is too conservative, it may miss some important details. An effect, explained from 90% may have some dangerous surprises in remaining 10% we don't know of, because our approved knowledge (conservative may be outdated) yet doesn't include it. A "half of truth" is a similar thing like a lie. What is a 9/10 of the truth?
I'd suggest more open-mindness in research, being more careful with Occam's razor, to not cut away something vital.

 

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razorphreak wrote: At that

razorphreak wrote:


  At that time, it was needed.  I fail to see, since we have record of them, how they were continue to be needed today.

 

So even though the ancient Hebrews already possessed the Torah which were also a record of God's miracles, Jesus still needed to perform even more miracles, which would then also be recorded ?

If, as you suggest, recorded miracles carry such influence, why didn't  Jesus follow your logic and simply point to the miracles of the Old Testament and leave it at that ?

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Luminon wrote: I have to

Luminon wrote:

 


I have to say, there are no miracles, or anything supernatural. Everything what exists, is natural. Things like 'supernatural' or 'miracles' are effects of scientific areas of knowledge, which are not yet discovered or approved at this moment, but most probably will be.

 

So there is a scientific explanation for the Red Sea parting itself down the middle just long enough for the Israelites to cross and then conveniently closing again just as Pharaoh's armies were within its boundaries ?

There exists a scientific explanation for how Balaam's donkey spoke in human language ?

There exists a scientific explanation as to how Lot's wife was instantly transformed from living flesh into a "pillar" of salt ?

There exists a scientific explanation for the simultaneous deaths of all the firstborn in Egypt ( which include both human and animal victims )

There exists a scientific explanation for the three young Hebrew men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo, not burning to death when they were tossed alive into a pagan king's furnace ?

Care to formulate any theories ?  I'm all ears.

 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:So

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
So even though the ancient Hebrews already possessed the

Torah

which were

also

a record of God's miracles, Jesus

still

needed to perform even more miracles, which would then

also

be recorded ?

If, as you suggest, recorded miracles carry such influence, why didn't  Jesus follow your logic and simply point to the miracles of the Old Testament and leave it at that ?

To your first question, yes.  Remember that the reason that Jesus was on Earth was for more than to perform miracles.  Since that isn't what this thread was addressing, I won't go into detail as to why Jesus came to Earth.  And since he was on Earth, it would be against the very nature of God to not help humans.  Hence, miracles.

As to your second question, think for a second as to why we are even having this very discussion.  The Jews at that time were not meant to accept Jesus so even if he simply said it, they would not believe.  As it is, he DID address the OT many times to the Jews but still they did not believe.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
How utterly ridiculous.  What impact would miracles from a Jewish god have upon pagan peoples who already had their own gods who also performed miracles ?  ( remember pharaoh's  own sorcerers duplicated the same miracles of Moses and Aaron.  Exodus 7: 10-12 )

Ah, so context means nothing to you?  How exactly should I expect to hold a discussion when no matter the explanation, it's always with the response of "how ridiculous."

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
2000 years ago the ancient world was dominated by belief in miraculous intervention.  They would not be baffled or overawed by such claims.  "Oh your Christian god can performs magic tricks, so what, our gods do that as well. Next !"

Yes and if you continue to read in Acts, they received them.  At that time, it was needed.  I fail to see, since we have record of them, how they were continue to be needed today.

And before your retort, remember this thread is about what the bible states, not about your opinions of the bible itself.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Miracles would have the most impact upon people living in the modern scientific era.....and not upon those of the ancient world who already believed in them. 

Think about it: 

Supernatural miracles would completely offset the claims of scientific knowledge and be an indispuatable counter-balance in support of spiritual beliefs ! 

...yet your god was too stupid  to grasp that blatantly simple concept.    Go figure.

My friend, if they did indeed believe, then the ENTIRE New Testament would not have been written because Israel's faith would not have required Jesus. 

That being said, a "miracle" still holds the definition of "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs."  Things that end up being explained via science are not miracles nor were they ever.  Human flight, space travel, the fact that we went from walking to horse to automobiles, are not miracles, they are simply humanity using the miracle of knowledge and the miracle of having the ability to learn.  Science has never explained how it is that our brain works.  Yet at no time does it enter your mind that having the ability to think is a miracle from God.  From from anything to be called "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs," right?

Neurologists. Microbiologists. Molecular Geneticists.

Those are the first terms that come to mind for you to go ahead and suggest you look into the work of when you say retarded things like, "Science has never explained how it is our brain works."

There are certain things (subjective consciousness comes to mind) that are yet fully understood, but the brain as a topic is quite well covered.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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What miracles ? There

What miracles ?     There is no such fucking crazy thing. Geezz gawed of no master , I AM as YOU as I AM what I AM !  hummm, what is that? what is  THAT  not?  HEY , what is going on right now, can ya feel it? , yeah WOW ! Now what?, DOGMA .....    I sure like teasing wanting tits in my face ..... Lets focus and be honest ...  

  (()) a message from ME , jesus christ !     


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Neurologists. Microbiologists. Molecular Geneticists.

Those are the first terms that come to mind for you to go ahead and suggest you look into the work of when you say retarded things like, "Science has never explained how it is our brain works."

There are certain things (subjective consciousness comes to mind) that are yet fully understood, but the brain as a topic is quite well covered.

You're missing the point and are attempting to argue semantics.  Wanna try again?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:So

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

So there is a scientific explanation for the Red Sea parting itself down the middle just long enough for the Israelites to cross and then conveniently closing again just as Pharaoh's armies were within its boundaries ?

There exists a scientific explanation for how Balaam's donkey spoke in human language ?

There exists a scientific explanation as to how Lot's wife was instantly transformed from living flesh into a "pillar" of salt ?

There exists a scientific explanation for the simultaneous deaths of all the firstborn in Egypt ( which include both human and animal victims )

There exists a scientific explanation for the three young Hebrew men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo, not burning to death when they were tossed alive into a pagan king's furnace ?

Care to formulate any theories ?  I'm all ears.


These events can be a mere legends, or partially affected by people's fantasy and not understanding of what really happened. Because most of these miracles are still beyond our understanding, I will only remember some theories or speculations I had read years ago. I didn't make them up, I just can mention them here, as a curiosity.

The parting of Red sea could be caused by gravity powers, according to one writer's speculations. Legends speak of a planet called Nibiru, coming about every 6000 years very close to Earth. The gravity power of Nibiru passing by, could temporarily pull the sea away, exposing a land, which the escaping israelites used as their way, while pharaoh's army had a bit worse timing.

I know nothing about Balaam's donkey. Never heard of it.

Lot's wife, that's an interesting story. According to Zecharia Sitchin, ancient gods were actually extraterrestrials, herding people like livestock and servants. Did you ever play Popolous? Well, these "gods" fought each other, there are legends of their great wars, desert lands melted to glass by nuclear heat, increased radioactivity on Sinai peninsula and somewhere in India, sudden disappearing of Sumerian civilization, and so on.
The story about Lot's wife is so old, that it was written down in Sumerian language. Sumerians were getting their salt from a sea water (so it was a sea salt), so they had the same word for "salt" and "vapor". In translating this story to Hebrew, a mistake happened. The translator knew nothing of nuclear blast, and instead of Lot's wife literally turning to a "pillar of vapor" he used an incorrect meaning, the "pillar of salt". But as we know, a nuclear explosion causes people around to vaporize. It's much more rational possibility, than becoming a pillar of salt.
I asked a friend to do a little of research on it, and the hebrew word is "melah", which literally means a sea salt, so it supports the story. (I believe Rook could be interested)
The death of firstborns, according to a speculation I had read, is a mistake in meaning. In last century, there were plans of weapons, killing everything living, but leaving buildings intact. However, these deadly rays of death could be stopped by a thin layer of paper. Now let's get back to Egypt. Poor Israeli slaves all lived in reed huts, and their egyptian masters had a regular houses. Reed (or papyrus) is a bit like paper, so Israeli huts could be resistant to the deadly beams of aliens, playing their interactive, strategic version of Popolous. This is a possible, approximate scenario of what could happen.
It's just a speculation, and involving aliens, but the days of real scientific research are not yet over.

Not burning in fire is actually today widely practised by firewalkers, who can stand or walk on embers for a long time, without getting a burn. I had personally met several firewalkers, and they seemed to be 100% succesful, and they didn't use any physical preparations. Even my mother walked on embers once. She was badly prepared, so she got a burn like a tiny reddish spot on her one foot, but nothing else.
Remember, it's firewalking. Running is for pansies, real firewalkers walk on embers quite slowly by all their weight. All protective layers of sweat, ash, or thick skin means nothing, when you step on the embers by all your weight and have a slow walk. And yet, the feet are after the walking unaffected by heat. This is at the moment unexplainable by scientific knowledge, but as I wrote, days of science are not yet over and there will be new areas to explore.

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razorphreak wrote:  And

razorphreak wrote:

 

 

And since he was on Earth, it would be against the very nature of God to not help humans.  Hence, miracles.

 

 

Which leads me to ask, if God's nature compels him to help humanity by using miracles, why no miracles today ?

 

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razorphreak wrote:   The

razorphreak wrote:

 

  The Jews at that time were not meant to accept Jesus so even if he simply said it, they would not believe.  As it is, he DID address the OT many times to the Jews but still they did not believe.

So Jesus went ahead and performed these miracles for the benefit of the Jews knowing full well that his efforts were wasted ?   What a ridiculous god you serve !

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Which

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Which leads me to ask, if God's nature compels him to help humanity by using miracles, why no miracles today ?

Who says there aren't?  Because you have not been witness to something unexplained does not mean they don't happen.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
So Jesus went ahead and performed these miracles for the benefit of the Jews knowing full well that his efforts were wasted ?   What a ridiculous god you serve !

It's interesting how your mind works.  Are you a half-empty kinda person?

I say that because instead of thinking of the people he brought into the faith, you only see the people who didn't follow. 

Oh, keeping with biblical text, you should also remember, they were not meant to believe either so it should have been obvious that the miracles were NOT meant for the Jews who were not chosen to accept.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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How you Xains turn the bible

How you Xains turn the bible into your religion and bizzare traditions is beyond me. Those bible writers didn't "believe" in the fiction miracles they wrote anymore than Rod Serling did with his fiction plus wisdom writers of the Twilight Zone series.

   The simple wisest "saving" message of the story Jesus is an atheistic buddha like one, of no more superstition and self separation of anything, as nothing is separate, because all is ONE with the father cosmos or god. No master, all is one.

No to the church temple hypocrites, and what they call faith and puplic worship etc. "Pray alone", meant 'meditate', think for yourself. Know the christ (perfection) in you. Church religion is dogma, which is the "devil" of wrong thinking.

Try reading the bible and all such mythology from a common sense prospective with an appreciation for ancient folklore and story telling with it's messages of wisdom regarding human nature. Keep in mind the lack of science then. "Germs and viruses" ????? etc ....  why did my child die ??? ....

  Sadly, xains are idol worshipers, "hypocrites", and the enemy to love (heal) Thanks wise Jesus! .... Go science, the greatest study of 'g awe d' !    


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Which leads me to ask, if God's nature compels him to help humanity by using miracles, why no miracles today ?

Who says there aren't?  Because you have not been witness to something unexplained does not mean they don't happen.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
So Jesus went ahead and performed these miracles for the benefit of the Jews knowing full well that his efforts were wasted ?   What a ridiculous god you serve !

It's interesting how your mind works.  Are you a half-empty kinda person?

I say that because instead of thinking of the people he brought into the faith, you only see the people who didn't follow. 

Oh, keeping with biblical text, you should also remember, they were not meant to believe either so it should have been obvious that the miracles were NOT meant for the Jews who were not chosen to accept.

You can be as dismissive if my arguments as you please, but the all powerfull god that you worship used to intervene in the affairs of both believer and unbeliever by miraculously destroying whole cities ( Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah )  using magical plagues to punish the entire nation of Egypt, and even flooded the entire PLANET to show that he's god.....and now he only shows up at those hokey "miracle healing crusades" to cure some old person of terminal liver spots.

 

Your answers are like those of a slick politician..vague and self-serving.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:You

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
You can be as dismissive if my arguments as you please, but the all powerfull god that you worship used to intervene in the affairs of both believer and unbeliever by miraculously destroying whole cities ( Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah )  using magical plagues to punish the entire nation of Egypt, and even flooded the entire PLANET to show that he's god.....and now he only shows up at those hokey "miracle healing crusades" to cure some old person of terminal liver spots. 

Your answers are like those of a slick politician..vague and self-serving.

I'm not dismissing anything.  The largest problem I have is I have no clue as to what answer would actually make any sense to you or anyone else.  You stated that Jesus' miracles were a waste.  I simply pointed out how they weren't from a different perspective.  You asked why no miracles today yet I asked you how do you know that?  If anything, you've dismissed my response with a straw man response.  From miracles to God's wrath?  What exactly are we discussing here?  What is this thread supposed to answer?  From my very first post, I asked what would be "proof?"  Should this discussion have begun with attempting to list what I consider to be a miracle and then have you refute it?  Maybe vice versa? 

I'm not trying to be "vague and self-serving."  It's difficult to answer when I'm not sure if an answer actually exists for you to not agree with, but simply understand.  The question was asked about Mark 16; my answer was about context and time frame.  I'm not even sure if there was understanding there.  The responses so far have seemed simply dismissive and regarded as "ridiculous" since no attempt to understand exists.  How am I supposed to respond next?  It's like you attempting to explain to me why you chose that picture as your avitar: if I have no interest in attempting to understand why you chose that picture and I just dismiss each response you give with the same "it's disturbing" response, was anything accomplished?  Was anything gained?  Was any bridge built (if there is even a desire to)?

Do you even understand the point I'm trying to make or am I wasting both our times?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:Who says

razorphreak wrote:

Who says there aren't?  Because you have not been witness to something unexplained does not mean they don't happen.

It's not just Prozac. A whole lot of us have missed these miracles. There are a lot of people on the planet, so you'd think we could come up with repeatable miracles.

razorphreak wrote:
It's interesting how your mind works.  Are you a half-empty kinda person?

The guy's username is ProzacDeathWish.

razorphreak wrote:
Oh, keeping with biblical text, you should also remember, they were not meant to believe either so it should have been obvious that the miracles were NOT meant for the Jews who were not chosen to accept.

K. So now you're familiar with a supernatural being's agenda? I guess "it's right there in the bible" is enough. Wait, so it's impossible for non-believers to witness miracles? That's ... convenient. Actually, that's brilliant! Right, anyone who doesn't believe can't be a witness to miracles, so therefore the scientific method is unable to witness miracles because of its heavy attempts to remove bias. Miracles are unobservable by those without faith.

That's a good one, I'll give you that.

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HisWillness wrote:A whole

HisWillness wrote:
A whole lot of us have missed these miracles. There are a lot of people on the planet, so you'd think we could come up with repeatable miracles.

If everyone had a equal point of view or just a general definition of what a "miracle" is, then it would nullify your statement.  Problem is, 10 people in a room will come up with 10 different ideas as to what a miracle is and at least one will say miracles don't exist. 

By the way, "repeatable?"  If a miracle were indeed repeatable, would it still be a miracle?

HisWillness wrote:
So now you're familiar with a supernatural being's agenda? I guess "it's right there in the bible" is enough.

Different topic for a different thread.  I didn't intent to thread jack this one.

HisWillness wrote:
Wait, so it's impossible for non-believers to witness miracles? That's ... convenient.

Who said that?  I know I didn't.

Now if you care to read it again, it was about non-believers ACCEPTING miracles, more specifically accepting what was called a miracle, not witnessing them.  Would you care to rephrase your response now?

EDIT: Here's an example...if I called the ability to think a miracle, what would you call it?  And before you call it evolution of the human mind, think for a second, why did the mind itself have to evolve?  It could have remained simple.  It could have remained like that of species that died off before humans like the dinos: simple and instinctual.  But humanity was granted thought, the ability to reason.  I consider that a miracle whether you believe it a gift from God or evolution taking door number 2 for human progression.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:If

razorphreak wrote:

If everyone had a equal point of view or just a general definition of what a "miracle" is, then it would nullify your statement.  Problem is, 10 people in a room will come up with 10 different ideas as to what a miracle is and at least one will say miracles don't exist.

And the nine other people in the room will be voicing opinions of natural phenomena.

razorphreak wrote:
By the way, "repeatable?"  If a miracle were indeed repeatable, would it still be a miracle?

I don't know. The term is strange to me, since no ready definition fits with anything recorded with any care. It's a term that gets thrown around for all sorts of things, 

razorphreak wrote:
HisWillness wrote:
Wait, so it's impossible for non-believers to witness miracles? That's ... convenient.

Who said that?  I know I didn't.

I misunderstood then.

razorphreak wrote:
Now if you care to read it again, it was about non-believers ACCEPTING miracles, more specifically accepting what was called a miracle, not witnessing them.  Would you care to rephrase your response now?

Yes, I think I see. Earlier you objected to a semantic argument, but I don't know how you can avoid one when talking about "what was called a miracle" and non-believers accepting them. I'm not asking for a dictionary definition, just what you think. Otherwise, the semantic spiral of death is in our future.

It strikes me as just as convenient for your argument that non-believers simply don't accept miracles as supernatural events, since the term "miracle" is almost entirely nonsensical outside of supernatural claims. But are we talking "gravity" as a miracle, or "something particularly convenient" or what? Again, your understanding of what we're talkign about would be more helpful than a dictionary definition, since you seem to have a specific notion of miracles that I don't.

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HisWillness wrote:The term

HisWillness wrote:
The term is strange to me, since no ready definition fits with anything recorded with any care. It's a term that gets thrown around for all sorts of things,

Granted.  I suppose I take the high road often enough.  For example, we use the term photosynthesis to explain how plants convert CO2 to O2 using light for energy (I'm keeping it simple so please don't kill me for missing out a few details).  The question as to WHY it happens however I regard as a miracle.  It never had to occur.  But it does and the fact that it does, not how it does, is the miracle.

HisWillness wrote:
It strikes me as just as convenient for your argument that non-believers simply don't accept miracles as supernatural events, since the term "miracle" is almost entirely nonsensical outside of supernatural claims. But are we talking "gravity" as a miracle, or "something particularly convenient" or what? Again, your understanding of what we're talkign about would be more helpful than a dictionary definition, since you seem to have a specific notion of miracles that I don't.

I know I'm about to get roasted again...

It doesn't have to be "supernatural" however I think to accept that there are miracles, you'd almost have to accept there is something above natural law.  The problem and the reason why I wonder if non-believers even accept what would be called a miracle is this - we, meaning theists, believe that the supernatural made the natural exist.  Not accepting that the supernatural exists means that only nature can produce anything that could be regarded as a miracle and hence explainable, i.e. cause and effect, so it wouldn't really be a miracle after all.

So by that, not how it occurs but WHY it occurs and the fact that it is or has occurred is what I, for the most part, see as a miracle.  By that is how I can say that I see miracles, new or established, every day.  And my faith led me to believe those events are gifts from God.  Human reasoning is something I regard as a miracle but as a single event since you can see humans everywhere doing it all the time.  How a person can learn to be an EMT and use those skills to save others is a miracle because if that miracle had not occurred (or continues to occur), that is to say if we did not have the ability to learn, we would no longer have EMT's.  It's not how a person uses those skills but rather the sheer fact that the individual actually had the ability to learn those skills is what I regard as a miracle, a gift from God.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:If

razorphreak wrote:

If everyone had a equal point of view or just a general definition of what a "miracle" is, then it would nullify your statement.  Problem is, 10 people in a room will come up with 10 different ideas as to what a miracle is and at least one will say miracles don't exist. 

By the way, "repeatable?"  If a miracle were indeed repeatable, would it still be a miracle?

Exactly True. If I run a stop sign I don't notice and no one hits me is that a miracle? Some would think so. I'd consider it lucky or statistically possible.

A repeatable miracle probably isn't one. That suggests there is another explanation that is not understood.

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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Exactly True. If I run a stop sign I don't notice and no one hits me is that a miracle? Some would think so. I'd consider it lucky or statistically possible.

A repeatable miracle probably isn't one. That suggests there is another explanation that is not understood.

I agree that example is statistics.  If continued, eventually you'll hit someone or someone will hit you.

When I was in a motorcycle accident recently and it left me with multiple fractures in my leg, the fact that I survived wasn't a miracle.  I wore a helmet, had the right gear on, etc.  Statistics showed that I would eventually be in some kind of accident so I took precautions to ensure that I would hopefully survive.  Once at the hospital, I regard it a miracle that there were talented people who helped me recover.  Anyone can become a doctor but the miracle are those who truly learn the practice to actually provide aid, if that makes any sense.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:Once at

razorphreak wrote:

Once at the hospital, I regard it a miracle that there were talented people who helped me recover.  Anyone can become a doctor but the miracle are those who truly learn the practice to actually provide aid, if that makes any sense.

Here I differ with you. I have read what you think are miracles and do not agree. It's a basic difference between believers that attribute natural processes to God including human learning and acceptance of perceived reality of a non-believer. It is your faith in the supernatural that gives you basis for the miracles. We don't have your faith and see only the logically result not miracles.

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"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Here I differ with you. I have read what you think are miracles and do not agree. It's a basic difference between believers that attribute natural processes to God including human learning and acceptance of perceived reality of a non-believer. It is your faith in the supernatural that gives you basis for the miracles. We don't have your faith and see only the logically result not miracles.

This supports my point I was making in post 93 as to why I honestly believe non-believers will not or do not accept miracles.  But your post here illustrates one thing that I do not believe no matter the explanation, no matter the argument, I do not believe that a theist and an atheist will ever agree on the subject of miracles.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Here I differ with you. I have read what you think are miracles and do not agree. It's a basic difference between believers that attribute natural processes to God including human learning and acceptance of perceived reality of a non-believer. It is your faith in the supernatural that gives you basis for the miracles. We don't have your faith and see only the logically result not miracles.

This supports my point I was making in post 93 as to why I honestly believe non-believers will not or do not accept miracles.  But your post here illustrates one thing that I do not believe no matter the explanation, no matter the argument, I do not believe that a theist and an atheist will ever agree on the subject of miracles.

I'm not sure where you got the idea I thought a theist and an atheist would ever agree on miracles, we won't. I don't do supernatural as real in my reality, you do. End of story.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
You can be as dismissive if my arguments as you please, but the all powerfull god that you worship used to intervene in the affairs of both believer and unbeliever by miraculously destroying whole cities ( Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah )  using magical plagues to punish the entire nation of Egypt, and even flooded the entire PLANET to show that he's god.....and now he only shows up at those hokey "miracle healing crusades" to cure some old person of terminal liver spots. 

Your answers are like those of a slick politician..vague and self-serving.

I'm not dismissing anything.  The largest problem I have is I have no clue as to what answer would actually make any sense to you or anyone else.  You stated that Jesus' miracles were a waste.  I simply pointed out how they weren't from a different perspective.  You asked why no miracles today yet I asked you how do you know that?  If anything, you've dismissed my response with a straw man response.  From miracles to God's wrath?  What exactly are we discussing here?  What is this thread supposed to answer?  From my very first post, I asked what would be "proof?"  Should this discussion have begun with attempting to list what I consider to be a miracle and then have you refute it?  Maybe vice versa? 

I'm not trying to be "vague and self-serving."  It's difficult to answer when I'm not sure if an answer actually exists for you to not agree with, but simply understand.  The question was asked about Mark 16; my answer was about context and time frame.  I'm not even sure if there was understanding there.  The responses so far have seemed simply dismissive and regarded as "ridiculous" since no attempt to understand exists.  How am I supposed to respond next?  It's like you attempting to explain to me why you chose that picture as your avitar: if I have no interest in attempting to understand why you chose that picture and I just dismiss each response you give with the same "it's disturbing" response, was anything accomplished?  Was anything gained?  Was any bridge built (if there is even a desire to)?

Do you even understand the point I'm trying to make or am I wasting both our times?

 

Here's the deal razorphreak ....

(  yuk, what a depressing user name, why couldn't you choose something more uplifting like my user name ? ).....

the source of my frustration comes from the fact that many Christians go to great lengths to assure their faithful brethren that, euphemistically speaking, God is "The Big Dog" the "The Alpha Male" the "End All and Be All" of supernatural power.  Everything from the smallest sub-atomic particle to the largest galaxy to even the universe itself attests to the sheer magnitude of his supernatural abilities. You get it ?

 

The "power of God" is a frequent topic among Christian preachers and evangelists.  Like it or not "miracles" are also  a major part of your ( and my former ) religion.   Well, these claims deserve to be examined; it's an issue of put up or shut up. Either God can...or he can't.

 

Well, like many skeptics, I'm calling your bluff.  All these miracles that you described as only being viable based upon special circumstances, and particular audiences, and cultural contexts, and on and on.....that's bull shit.

 

The excuse that only believers can observe those miracles..well, did the drowning Egyptians ( who were unbelievers ) have any problem understanding that their deaths were predicated upon a miraculous display of divine power ?  How could they not ?  They weren't stupid were they ?

Did any unbelieving observers of this maritime disaster fail to understand that what they were observing was a suspension of natural law because seas don't normally part themselves ? What do you think ?

When the walls of Jericho fell down without natural explanation, did it's inhabitants not also comprehend that  massive stone walls don't normally fall down of their own accord ? They were unbelievers, too but there is no way for them to be ignorant of what they were observing.

 

Christians like yourself who attest to God's ability to perform miracles but who backtrack and obfuscate when challenged remind me of a man who constantly boasts of his ability to knock people out with a single punch and then when challenged to prove himself suddenly makes excuses and backs down....again, either God can do what you say or he can't.  There is no middle ground for you to retreat to.

It's put up or shut up.

 

Btw, Benny Hinn the world famous faith healer, while in the African nation of Ghana, claimed to have miraculously raised a man from the dead, do you believe him ?  Yes....No ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Here's

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Here's the deal razorphreak ....

(  yuk, what a depressing user name, why couldn't you choose something more uplifting like my user name ? ).....

Hey I rather like it. Reminds me of old DJ times...so stop being a hater... Laughing out loud

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
the source of my frustration comes from the fact that many Christians go to great lengths to assure their faithful brethren that, euphemistically speaking, God is "The Big Dog" the "The Alpha Male" the "End All and Be All" of supernatural power.  Everything from the smallest sub-atomic particle to the largest galaxy to even the universe itself attests to the sheer magnitude of his supernatural abilities. You get it ?

Of course I do.  The only question and the one that remains unanswered however is why judge a group when you don't know the individual?  It's as shameless as that crap going on right now about judging Obama because of Wright.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
The "power of God" is a frequent topic among Christian preachers and evangelists.  Like it or not "miracles" are also  a major part of your ( and my former ) religion.   Well, these claims deserve to be examined; it's an issue of put up or shut up. Either God can...or he can't.

But it sounds like you are intermixing miracles that are here today (based on faith) and miracles from those days.  So how it is that you came to the "either he can or can't?"  The curious part though is if you accept that there were miracles in the bible, how is it you can't accept what I describe as a miracle?....again under the assumption that you are accepting what the bible states.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Well, like many skeptics, I'm calling your bluff.  All these miracles that you described as only being viable based upon special circumstances, and particular audiences, and cultural contexts, and on and on.....that's bull shit.

The excuse that only believers can observe those miracles..well, did the drowning Egyptians ( who were unbelievers ) have any problem understanding that their deaths were predicated upon a miraculous display of divine power ?  How could they not ?  They weren't stupid were they ?

Once again, it was NOT about observing but ACCEPTING.  We've all observed what I gave examples of but it is you not accepting them as miracles.  There were no special circumstances so I think you might need to lay off the outspoken preachers...

I should say though, as to the Egyptians or some of the other bigger events, I've never heard them be referred to as miracles so I'm not exactly sure how that got in here.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
When the walls of Jericho fell down without natural explanation, did it's inhabitants not also comprehend that  massive stone walls don't normally fall down of their own accord ? They were unbelievers, too but there is no way for them to be ignorant of what they were observing.

Again, are you calling that a so called miracle?

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Btw, Benny Hinn the world famous faith healer, while in the African nation of Ghana, claimed to have miraculously raised a man from the dead, do you believe him ?  Yes....No ?

Hinn is far from anything that I would consider to be a biblical Christian.  Frankly I think he's an idiot.  And I know he's not God because of his other actions.  So, nope.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire