What ever happened to god's miracles?

Renshia
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What ever happened to god's miracles?

One thing I do not understand, and admit it was a huge part in my departure from christianity is where are all the signs and wonders that god is said to be capable of?

For me I actively fight against religion because the entire structure is based on this god that in the past is claimed to have been extremely active in messing around in humanities affairs. Basically getting his point across to us dullards, as in old testament stuff. Even active in more modern times.. with new testament miracles. But then ever since man has developed the ability to group information together.. Poof no sign of god…

Where are the blind healed?.... Where are the lame that walk?…. where are the hungry fed with just a couple fish….

Why is the world is the UN food agency worried about shortages. There should be at least a couple believers that could pass a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish around and feed them surely?


Show me one person that was completely blind, crippled or on a death bed with cancer that was healed. One truly verifiable miracle. Why would god feel the necessity’s to send his son down to die and dispatch his disciples into the world to and then just disapear?

In the bible in Mark V16:15-18 the bible states;


“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Seems mighty fishy that as soon as we would all be able to witness this awesome power of our said Lord he retracts his influence and expects everything to be based on faith….

I may not be an overly smart person, but he states the credentials of his followers,  where are the signs that "will accompany those who believe?

I spent a number of years devotely following a chritsian faith… I never seen a miracle that did not have an obvious explanation. I never did see the blind healed. Hell never even met anyone that has or at least could prove they have.

So where is your god, what is he doing taking a holiday on Bazor?


Really if people don’t use there common sense and see religion for the fruit it doesn't bear, then i think they really do deserve to be slaves.

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


razorphreak
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Renshia wrote:One thing I do

Renshia wrote:
One thing I do not understand, and admit it was a huge part in my departure from christianity is where are all the signs and wonders that god is said to be capable of?

I'm a bit curious but why do you think you needed to see something which you'd call "miraculous" that is beyond what you see everyday?

Renshia wrote:
For me I actively fight against religion because the entire structure is based on this god that in the past is claimed to have been extremely active in messing around in humanities affairs. Basically getting his point across to us dullards, as in old testament stuff. Even active in more modern times.. with new testament miracles. But then ever since man has developed the ability to group information together.. Poof no sign of god…

Hmmm...guess it would depend on what you call "proof." Of course, there is no point I can make under a forum post that would convenience you otherwise anyway so I won't go there.

Renshia wrote:
Where are the blind healed?.... Where are the lame that walk?…. where are the hungry fed with just a couple fish….

Why is the world is the UN food agency worried about shortages. There should be at least a couple believers that could pass a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish around and feed them surely?

Does everyone have to yell up and down "Look at what the miracle I did today!" in order for you to know it was done?  What I'm saying here is people help others daily but are not needing to have credit given to them for their actions.  If I were to go to a place that has needy and managed to cook up a meal for hundreds, all alone, could that not be a "miracle" for those who need?  Should I then go to the news and ask them to report it as such?

Renshia wrote:
I spent a number of years devotely following a chritsian faith… I never seen a miracle that did not have an obvious explanation. I never did see the blind healed. Hell never even met anyone that has or at least could prove they have.

So where is your god, what is he doing taking a holiday on Bazor?


Really if people don’t use there common sense and see religion for the fruit it doesn't bear, then i think they really do deserve to be slaves.

Millions saw on a Tuesday morning airplanes slam into some buildings in New York and yet some who "saw it" have concluded that it was a missile or smaller plane that caused some or all of the damage.  What you see vs. what I see are perceptions and when you see someone saved by an EMT, you call daily life, I call a miracle that we were given the ability to learn how to do such a thing and a miracle that it could be done at that moment for that person to live.

There is a joke that reminds me of your post and I'm sure you've heard it before but I'll put it here anyway for you to know what is on my mind after I read your words:

There is this lady in a town in the central part of the states.  She lived near the Mississippi River during the time when there was a big flood.  Anyway as the flood waters began to rise, she asked God to perform a miracle and rescue her from the floods.  A police officer drove by as she was praying on her front porch telling her that if she didn't have a way out, he could take her to safety.  She refused saying, "God will save me."  As the waters rose, she was now forced onto the roof of her house.  As she continued to pray, a man in a boat came by asking her to come with him.  She repeated, "God will save me!"  Finally, as the waters became fierce, a helicopter was flying by and attempted to save her.  She again refused their help by repeating "God will save me" over and over again.  She "wakes up" in heaven, realizing that she drowned in the flood.  As she came before God, she asked him, "Lord, why did you not save me?"  God replied, "I sent a cop, a boat, and a helicopter, what more did you want?"

I hope the point of the joke in relation to your post isn't lost.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Are you actually trying

Are you actually trying to make equivilant the miracles in the Bible and just "everyday miracles"?  Are you suggesting that when Jesus mentioned you would see miracles, that it wasn't on the order of one fish feeding a multitude, but a multitude of fish feeding a good number?

 

Are you serious?

 

Of all the things that were going on during Jesus' life, he actually distinguished between miracles and ordinary events.  Now you are just claiming everything a miracle (or whatever you want).

This is why I can't stand Xians. They're generally disingenuous idiots ready with some whitebread story or joke that is supposed to seal the deal.

 

The fact that this joker thinks showing up at a soup kitchen is the same kind of miracle that Jesus (supposedly) performed is a mockery. Of course, he doesn't care. He just wants to support that stupid religion in the most asinine way he can - as it always has been done.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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Hey I know Nobody truly

Hey I know

 

Nobody truly believes?

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


Jeffrick
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Razorphreak

Your comments are the same as every smilley wide eyed airhead ever uses, they do not relate to reality. They relate to a time in human experience, generations ago when few people were literate fewer yet understood the basic workings of the world around them. "The sun rises, blame god!" "Earthquakes, floods famine happen, blame god!" Today the real reasons are easily explained by any Third grader without resorting to gods. Would that you were as smart as a third grader. The mirecle of feeding the hungry, (done it myself)is not a mystical revelation of the spirit it is the sore muscles. Has for the joke (very funny) shows how blind religion is hazzardous to your health, and the three potential 'saviors' were people doing their JOBS, not an act of god.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


razorphreak
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Jeffrick wrote: Your

Jeffrick wrote:
Your comments are the same as every smilley wide eyed airhead ever uses, they do not relate to reality. They relate to a time in human experience, generations ago when few people were literate fewer yet understood the basic workings of the world around them. "The sun rises, blame god!" "Earthquakes, floods famine happen, blame god!" Today the real reasons are easily explained by any Third grader without resorting to gods. Would that you were as smart as a third grader. The mirecle of feeding the hungry, (done it myself)is not a mystical revelation of the spirit it is the sore muscles. Has for the joke (very funny) shows how blind religion is hazzardous to your health, and the three potential 'saviors' were people doing their JOBS, not an act of god.

Even though you don't understand my meaning on my post, I was civil, respectful even, and you still chose to post insulting me?  Why?

Second, I could bearly understand your post with the misspellings and grammar mistakes.

Third, from what I did understand, you assume too much.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


razorphreak
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daedalus wrote:Are you

daedalus wrote:
Are you actually trying to make equivilant the miracles in the Bible and just "everyday miracles"?  Are you suggesting that when Jesus mentioned you would see miracles, that it wasn't on the order of one fish feeding a multitude, but a multitude of fish feeding a good number?

You see one thing.  I see another.  Because I see that everything can be attributed to God, the "miracle" can be small to large.  I suppose you could say that from my perspective, I appreciate it differently.

daedalus wrote:
Of all the things that were going on during Jesus' life, he actually distinguished between miracles and ordinary events.  Now you are just claiming everything a miracle (or whatever you want).

This is why I can't stand Xians. They're generally disingenuous idiots ready with some whitebread story or joke that is supposed to seal the deal.

You assume too much as well.  You AUTOMATICALLY assume I mean everything is a miracle.  More so, you decide to insult me...why?

daedalus wrote:
The fact that this joker thinks showing up at a soup kitchen is the same kind of miracle that Jesus (supposedly) performed is a mockery. Of course, he doesn't care. He just wants to support that stupid religion in the most asinine way he can - as it always has been done.

How am I supposed to respond to that?  Lies, assumptions, and insults.  Your irrationality and hatred makes a reasonable discussion impossible...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


Jeffrick
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Lost

razorphreak wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:
Your comments are the same as every smilley wide eyed airhead ever uses, they do not relate to reality. They relate to a time in human experience, generations ago when few people were literate fewer yet understood the basic workings of the world around them. "The sun rises, blame god!" "Earthquakes, floods famine happen, blame god!" Today the real reasons are easily explained by any Third grader without resorting to gods. Would that you were as smart as a third grader. The mirecle of feeding the hungry, (done it myself)is not a mystical revelation of the spirit it is the sore muscles. Has for the joke (very funny) shows how blind religion is hazzardous to your health, and the three potential 'saviors' were people doing their JOBS, not an act of god.

I'm not that good at typing on computers,errors happen.

Even though you don't understand my meaning on my post, I was civil, respectful even, and you still chose to post insulting me?  Why?

I wrote "Your comments are...the same as..." the insult was for every wide-eyed-wonder that ever got in my face. I have never seen your face, you must know that! Blame my way of writing on my central Maine up bringing. "Mainah's talk normahl en blunt, nah need to go off wastin wurdz"

Second, I could bearly understand your post with the misspellings and grammar mistakes.

My post was simple, the wonders of god you describe can be explained by anyone past grade three without resorting to religion. This was not true prior to our modern education system.

Third, from what I did understand, you assume too much.

I assume you are religious, I assume you consider your religion correct, You can assume I am an athiest, that assumtion would be correct. Reguardless of the spelling.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


Jeffrick
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above posting

As you can see I don't have the hang of (skills at) this key board stuff yet. I mixed my quotes in with razorphreaks quotes. I hope it doesn't cause too much confusion, still learning as I am.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


razorphreak
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Jeffrick wrote:I'm not that

Jeffrick wrote:
I'm not that good at typing on computers,errors happen.

I'm tolerant of a lot of things Jeffrick, but this website has a spell checker built into it so all you have to do is run it...

Jeffrick wrote:
the insult was for every wide-eyed-wonder that ever got in my face. I have never seen your face, you must know that! Blame my way of writing on my central Maine up bringing. "Mainah's talk normahl en blunt, nah need to go off wastin wurdz"

An insult is an insult and I never gave you a reason to direct one at me.  I don't care who or what has crossed your path before...

Jeffrick wrote:
My post was simple, the wonders of god you describe can be explained by anyone past grade three without resorting to religion. This was not true prior to our modern education system.

Your assumption was that I didn't want to explain any "wonder" as you call it as anything but from God.  You and the other hater just don't get it...but because I am a good natured person, I'll try to explain it to you, even though you don't deserve an explanation especially when you didn't ask for it.

As per what my faith is about, I believe that knowledge, wisdom, are gifts from God.  Things like the food on our plates, the fact that an EMT knows how to save a life, or that a woman can create a cog are all explainable sure, but how did someone come to understand how to do these things?  How did anyone get the ability to understand?  To learn?  The sheer fact that a person can is the miracle.  The fact that humans are even here is a miracle.  THOSE are miracles.  The gifts that come our way that make explanations possible is a miracle. 

But I have the feeling that you won't accept my explanation and will continue to assume you know what I mean...further degenerating the point of this thread just like every other thread on this site as if it is still an "us vs. them" issue...oops I guess I just made an assumption that I just wasted my time...

 

Jeffrick wrote:
I assume you are religious, I assume you consider your religion correct, You can assume I am an athiest, that assumtion would be correct. Reguardless of the spelling.

The difference between you and me on that assumption I assumed nothing on a label.  I don't care what you want to call yourself; I call myself by my name and by the fact that I am a human being.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Quote:You assume too much as

Quote:
You assume too much as well.  You AUTOMATICALLY assume I mean everything is a miracle.  More so, you decide to insult me...why?

Quote:
You see one thing.  I see another.  Because I see that everything can be attributed to God, the "miracle" can be small to large.  I suppose you could say that from my perspective, I appreciate it differently.

He assumes? More likely, he reads.

Why are people mocking and insulting you? Probably because you're acting stupid and using fallacious arguments. It doesn't take much effort to inform yourself as to what does and does not constitute a valid argument. If someone as lazy as me can even be bothered to do at least that, what does that say about you?

Quote:
How am I supposed to respond to that?  Lies, assumptions, and insults.  Your irrationality and hatred makes a reasonable discussion impossible...

Insults, sure. Assumptions? Lies? Hatred? Are you totally fucked-up? The guy hasn't even met you.

And you're supposed to respond with a straight answer. Since you failed, I'll give you a second chance:

There are already two threads here about the death of Madeline Neumann (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html). I'll even point you to the threads, to save you the time and energy of finding them yourself:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13241

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13231

So, my question to you:

Why didn't the Holy Spirit miraculously heal Madeline - a feat that decades old medical treatment could've accomplished? For that matter, perhaps you would care to offer a valid explanation to albedo_00 as to why the anonymously named Laura was also not miraculously healed of her anorexia through faith? Jesus was able to lay hands on people and restore them even from death, and claimed his followers would wield the same power. So why the fuck are these two young girls no longer among the living?

 

No doubt your response will be a classic.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Religious people are

  Religious people are dangerous trouble makers that need love, as in understanding their delusion and hypocrisy and fiction of fear, and spreading god dogma of separation, said even big J .... a Xain icon,  ..... that the xains are to fucking stupid to interpret for themselves  .....

HEY Xains , my big J was an atheist , get it ???? .... well keep tying you dumb asses .....  BTW, big J don't like you Xain types, so he came as a doctor to cure them, but they fucking Xain types just killed him, so the story reads .....

Xains are fucking devils ..... so put love on ..... to heal ..... And so I YELL as J was rightiously indignant too ..... Fuck you Xains ..... I say this from love and caring ...... in the name of my atheist loving JESUS .....

YEAH JESUS SAVES, Christians kill .....


razorphreak
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I AM GOD AS YOU

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
Religious people are dangerous trouble makers that need love, as in understanding their delusion and hypocrisy and fiction of fear, and spreading god dogma of separation, said even big J .... a Xain icon,  ..... that the xains are to fucking stupid to interpret for themselves

HEY Xains , my big J was an atheist , get it ???? .... well keep tying you dumb asses .....  BTW, big J don't like you Xain types, so he came as a doctor to cure them, but they fucking Xain types just killed him, so the story reads .....

Xains are fucking devils ..... so put love on ..... to heal ..... And so I YELL as J was rightiously indignant too ..... Fuck you Xains ..... I say this from love and caring ...... in the name of my atheist loving JESUS .....

YEAH JESUS SAVES, Christians kill .....

Amazing how you can reduce a thread to insults and cursing without any intelligent thing to say.  Aren't you labeled as a "troll" here for that?  And I thought this was the "kill em with kindness" forum....

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


razorphreak
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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Quote:
Because I see that everything can be attributed to God, the "miracle" can be small to large.  I suppose you could say that from my perspective, I appreciate it differently.

He assumes? More likely, he reads.

Why are people mocking and insulting you? Probably because you're acting stupid and using fallacious arguments. It doesn't take much effort to inform yourself as to what does and does not constitute a valid argument. If someone as lazy as me can even be bothered to do at least that, what does that say about you?

What fallacious argument?  The original post on this thread was about never seeing a miracle. Right?  That person asked why not?  I simply gave a different perspective on how I see things.  It had nothing to do with not explaining it but rather how I have understood them to be. 

You assume that every Christian, because he or she doesn't believe as you do, is making an argument right?  I did no such thing.  So why are you following that odd line?

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Insults, sure. Assumptions? Lies? Hatred? Are you totally fucked-up? The guy hasn't even met you.

And you say I don't read it?  An insult is hate.  Period.  Always is.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Why didn't the Holy Spirit miraculously heal Madeline - a feat that decades old medical treatment could've accomplished? For that matter, perhaps you would care to offer a valid explanation to albedo_00 as to why the anonymously named Laura was also not miraculously healed of her anorexia through faith? Jesus was able to lay hands on people and restore them even from death, and claimed his followers would wield the same power. So why the fuck are these two young girls no longer among the living?

You didn't read my joke from my first post did you?  People who only "pray" for God's healing are ignorant of God's gifts to humanity.  God sends his gifts in many ways and those people who refused those gifts, waiting for a miracle, as if testing God's power, were missing the point.  I've seen stories like that for years and each time it's the same thing time and time again.  When I was in a motorcycle accident and it left me with a shattered left leg, I didn't refuse the EMT's help and I didn't refuse the rod that would be put in my leg to help heal me to get back to walking again.  My appreciation of those doctors who helped me includes thanking God for putting the right people in place to help me. 

I can't tell you why they didn't seek the help that God ALREADY put on this
Earth.  I am not in their shoes.  As a Christian myself, I would have told them, if I had had the chance, to seek out the medical help and trust that through the doctors and other medical staff, the care that they needed would find them.  But they made their choice.  But that is not what this thread is about. 

But hey, did what I just wrote matter to you?  I'm sure if you read through all this you're probably already thinking something like "but the HS coulda/shoulda healed if it was able to."   So I suppose no matter what words I offer up here will not remove the bias you already have against me.  Shame too, this thread could have been an interesting discussion.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Sorry for not getting back sooner...

Okay, it took a moment for me to catch up

First I do think we need to qualify what is a miracle. If you are going to attribute every bit of good fortune as a miracle of god, and every miss fortune as The devils influence, this conversation will go no where.

  [ quote=razorphreak

I see that everything can be attributed to God, the "miracle" can be small to large.[ /quote ]

Well lets see, I was once walking down the street. Fairly broke, wishing that I could scrape up twenty bucks.. Low and behold.. as I walked down the street... I happen to stumble upon an envelope... It had 50.00 in it. I was so glad.. I got to a pay phone and called a buddy.... we went grabbed some beer and went and got drunk.

Now did god provide a miracle for me???

Hear is the definition of what a would qualify as " signs and wonders" as a miracle is as laid out by your bible..

We will refer to mark v15:16

In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

so first off lets ignore the first to items, (mostly because I don't want any one using the movie dameon as evidence)

but lets look at the last couple.

drink deadly poison, Place hands on the sick and they will get better.

okay, I think the fish feeding thing and raising the dead would also qualify.

What doesn't qualify is, finding twenty bucks- a rose in your garden blooming -  the weather being the way you would want. or the patriots losing.

now.

[ quote=razorphreak

"Look at what the miracle I did today!" in order for you to know it was done? [ /quote ]

No, but it was god that did say "these signs will accompany those who believe" so if they were happening you would think someone would be talking about it. with all the religious TV shows out there, you would think we would see at least one guy get out of a wheel chair and be able to verify it.

[ quote= if I were to go to a place that has needy and managed to cook up a meal for hundreds, all alone, could that not be a "miracle" for those who need? [ /quote ]

No this is not a miracle. This is a direct result of your actions producing a result. no different than me taking an axe and cutting down a tree. So will you call me cutting down a tree a miracle?

I think you have made a great effort to minimize the power of your GOD down to being impotent, so you do not have to high of expectations of him, this way avoiding the reality of your disappointment in him.

I am sure it is easier to attribute every little piece of fluff in the air as a miracle and be able to stand around in dumb amazement, than to admit that your god is impotent and unable to doing anything.

 

razorphreak---- I used to tell that joke in a sermon I used to preach... good one eh?

here is one for you..

There is a Chinese story of an old farmer who had an old horse for tilling his fields.
One day the horse escaped into the hills and when all the farmer’s neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck.
The farmer replied, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”
A few nights later, the barn burned down. If the horse had been in the barn, it would have died.
Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?
A week later his horse returned with a herd of wild horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck.
His reply was, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”
Then when the farmer’s son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this was very bad luck.
Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”
Some weeks later the army marched into the village and conscripted every able bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer’s son with his broken leg they let him stay home.
the farmer, whose only reaction was, “Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?”

you see, it is all perspective, but perspective does not count as evidence.

So razorphreak, thanks for you input, but once again we see lots of excuses but nothing tangible or credible.

Oh and a joke that makes me think, all it does is give a very vivid example of how religion dissolves a persons ability to reason.

Just think if that woman had not been blinded by stupid faith she would have gotten into the boat... Maybe this is the true meaning of your joke.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


Renshia
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razorphreak.....

razorphreak wrote:

But hey, did what I just wrote matter to you?  I'm sure if you read through all this you're probably already thinking something like "but the HS coulda/shoulda healed if it was able to."   So I suppose no matter what words I offer up here will not remove the bias you already have against me.  Shame too, this thread could have been an interesting discussion.

razorphreak --

I appreciate you comments and my hope was to make this an interesting thread. I do not think that  Jeffrick's intention were to attack yo so much as to emphasize that your post seems more like your defending god's impotence, than presenting a valid argument. 

I hope by my last post it will ad a little clarity. to my query.

If you find someone being ;less than kind in there responses, I suggest a couple things.

1st -- rise above it read thru the lines and respond around the insults... from my experiences you get way farther along by being above insults.. if nothing else it will drive the other person mad that you do not rise to the bait... that in itself is the best revenge.

2ND. you will need to understand that a lot of what you see is simply frustration that your views are different and that we just don't understand why you guys don't get it.

3rd You know in your above quoted post you really do sound like your having a pity party. Boo hoo suck it up and lose this self importance that causes you to live life as a victim.

State facts-- present evidence, if you have some. if you are only presenting your opinion clarify that as what the point, so as not to confuse the issue. Please remember that just because you have settle a question in your mind by settling for a meager representation of reality, does not mean we all have to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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Forgive me for answering

Forgive me for answering these out of order...this one was easier to respond to first...

Renshia wrote:
I appreciate you comments and my hope was to make this an interesting thread. I do not think that  Jeffrick's intention were to attack yo so much as to emphasize that your post seems more like your defending god's impotence, than presenting a valid argument.

Well we are discussing what miracles are according to the Christian's perspective are we not?  The root of ALL atheistic arguments is there is NO valid argument when it comes to God so how can I present a "valid argument" that someone might respond to with reason?  Hence the circular trap that is presented to every theist that actually takes the time to respond.  First there is a question, then the response is attacked without any kind of rational point of view or intelligence.  I'm no noob to this...

Renshia wrote:
1st -- rise above it read thru the lines and respond around the insults... from my experiences you get way farther along by being above insults.. if nothing else it will drive the other person mad that you do not rise to the bait... that in itself is the best revenge.

Bit hard to when you get more troll like behavior out of some.  You can always identify that when it starts with "like all Christians YOU..."  Automatically, the discussion "de-evolved."

Renshia wrote:
2ND. you will need to understand that a lot of what you see is simply frustration that your views are different and that we just don't understand why you guys don't get it.

Believe me when I say I understand the frustration portion.  The problem is the last part of what you just said.  "You guys" shows a bias, a closed minded approach that no matter who you speak with, who you respond to, it's always an us vs. them battle of some kind.  Theists who come to this site with any level of intelligence are not here to pick a fight, are not here to convenience you to believe as they do, and will not try to "save" you.

Renshia wrote:
3rd You know in your above quoted post you really do sound like your having a pity party. Boo hoo suck it up and lose this self importance that causes you to live life as a victim.

Na.  It's the frustration that comes when no one actually listens.  I can't speak for anyone else that is a theist that posts on this site but as for me, when I say something you don't get, I'd prefer a question asking me to clarify vs. an assumption.  Other atheists complain about the same thing from Christians so why return the favor if you wish to "rise above?"

Renshia wrote:
State facts-- present evidence, if you have some. if you are only presenting your opinion clarify that as what the point, so as not to confuse the issue. Please remember that just because you have settle a question in your mind by settling for a meager representation of reality, does not mean we all have to.

Here's the problem though; we are talking theology.  According to other posters and the founders of this very site, there are no "facts" when it comes to God.  So what you are asking for will never be satisfied if you are approaching it expecting something you can see/taste/touch/smell.  And if that is indeed what your expectations are, we are wasting our time. 

I would hope that it not be the case.  I would hope that there would be a desire to understand and meet in the middle with respect.  But you tell me, can that be achieved with some of the previous posts in this thread, dropping f bombs left and right?

 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Quote:What fallacious

Quote:
What fallacious argument?

Well, let's take a look:

Quote:
Does everyone have to yell up and down "Look at what the miracle I did today!" in order for you to know it was done?  What I'm saying here is people help others daily but are not needing to have credit given to them for their actions.  If I were to go to a place that has needy and managed to cook up a meal for hundreds, all alone, could that not be a "miracle" for those who need?  Should I then go to the news and ask them to report it as such?

Non sequitor.

Quote:
Millions saw on a Tuesday morning airplanes slam into some buildings in New York and yet some who "saw it" have concluded that it was a missile or smaller plane that caused some or all of the damage.  What you see vs. what I see are perceptions and when you see someone saved by an EMT, you call daily life, I call a miracle that we were given the ability to learn how to do such a thing and a miracle that it could be done at that moment for that person to live.

Non sequitor.

Quote:
There is this lady in a town in the central part of the states.  She lived near the Mississippi River during the time when there was a big flood.  Anyway as the flood waters began to rise, she asked God to perform a miracle and rescue her from the floods.  A police officer drove by as she was praying on her front porch telling her that if she didn't have a way out, he could take her to safety.  She refused saying, "God will save me."  As the waters rose, she was now forced onto the roof of her house.  As she continued to pray, a man in a boat came by asking her to come with him.  She repeated, "God will save me!"  Finally, as the waters became fierce, a helicopter was flying by and attempted to save her.  She again refused their help by repeating "God will save me" over and over again.  She "wakes up" in heaven, realizing that she drowned in the flood.  As she came before God, she asked him, "Lord, why did you not save me?"  God replied, "I sent a cop, a boat, and a helicopter, what more did you want?"

This entire parable? You guessed it:

Non sequitor.

Quote:
The original post on this thread was about never seeing a miracle. Right?  That person asked why not?  I simply gave a different perspective on how I see things.  It had nothing to do with not explaining it but rather how I have understood them to be. 

Yes, the original post was about the absence of magical miracles from our present-day world. It's not about your perspective - the bible claimed that Jesus was able to bring people from dead to alive by laying hands on them. It doesn't say he consulted medical professionals put in place by God or used CPR - he touched them, and the Holy Spirit made it all better.

The question is: where have these miracles gone? They're supposed to follow the faithful, being readily at the disposal of anyone who believes.

Quote:
You assume that every Christian, because he or she doesn't believe as you do, is making an argument right?  I did no such thing.  So why are you following that odd line?

Correct. The act of not believing or believing is making an argument. By choosing to accept God, you've made an argument (to yourself in nobody else) that God is real. By choosing to accept the bible as God's message, you've made an argument that it's content is perfectly valid.

This line of reasoning is hardly odd, thanks.

Quote:
And you say I don't read it?  An insult is hate.  Period.  Always is.

Oh, yays. We enter the world of absolutes.

Insults are insults. Hate is hate. I can hate you without insulting you, and I can insult you without hating you. I hate Adolf Hitler, but I missed the boat on insulting him. I regularly curse at my computer, but I hardly hate it.

Quote:
You didn't read my joke from my first post did you?  People who only "pray" for God's healing are ignorant of God's gifts to humanity.  God sends his gifts in many ways and those people who refused those gifts, waiting for a miracle, as if testing God's power, were missing the point.  I've seen stories like that for years and each time it's the same thing time and time again.  When I was in a motorcycle accident and it left me with a shattered left leg, I didn't refuse the EMT's help and I didn't refuse the rod that would be put in my leg to help heal me to get back to walking again.  My appreciation of those doctors who helped me includes thanking God for putting the right people in place to help me. 

Your parable was a non sequitor. Because God put emergency services into place for us, that's evidence for God still performing miracles to save people. It also still hasn't addressed the original issue, instead opting to tangent away from it into a discussion about your perceptions.

Quote:
I can't tell you why they didn't seek the help that God ALREADY put on this
Earth.  I am not in their shoes.  As a Christian myself, I would have told them, if I had had the chance, to seek out the medical help and trust that through the doctors and other medical staff, the care that they needed would find them.  But they made their choice.  But that is not what this thread is about.

I wasn't asking you why they hadn't gone for proper treatment. The answer is obvious, and if you 'can't say why', I'll go ahead and step up to the plate: their faith in God.

I asked you why they were not magically healed by the Holy Spirit? Why weren't the faithful at the faith healing center able to lay hands on either girl and heal them? Jesus is very clearly described as doing this very thing for people in the Bible, and very clearly states that anyone of faith can perform the same deed. So, why isn't it working today? Where'd all the magic go running off to?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Renshia wrote:First I do

Renshia wrote:
First I do think we need to qualify what is a miracle. If you are going to attribute every bit of good fortune as a miracle of god, and every miss fortune as The devils influence, this conversation will go no where.

Fair enough.  From what I am understanding from your other post, you are looking for the definition that a "miracle" is a supernatural event right?  What I'm trying to say is a "miracle" of this type is almost never seen, and worse, never believed. I can tell you that I saw something like that however will you believe me from just me telling you? 

The bible says that every "good and perfect gift" is from God.  The ability to learn, wisdom given, why some can conceive, why some can't, for those born with 10 fingers and 10 toes and for those who aren't, each "gift" can be different.  Now I'm not saying that I can call everything a miracle since the chicken I just ate was not a miracle it was brought to my table.  Nor was the fact that I stuck it in the oven to cook it, nor was the fact that it cooked.  But there is the possibility that the fact that chickens exist is the miracle?

Renshia wrote:
Well lets see, I was once walking down the street. Fairly broke, wishing that I could scrape up twenty bucks.. Low and behold.. as I walked down the street... I happen to stumble upon an envelope... It had 50.00 in it. I was so glad.. I got to a pay phone and called a buddy.... we went grabbed some beer and went and got drunk.

Now did god provide a miracle for me???

No.  That's just good fortune.

Renshia wrote:
Hear is the definition of what a would qualify as " signs and wonders" as a miracle is as laid out by your bible...

Bible also says that if someone had the faith of a mustard seed much more is possible.  But you did bring up a question in my mind; are you asking about can people do miracles and not God?

Renshia wrote:
Oh and a joke that makes me think, all it does is give a very vivid example of how religion dissolves a persons ability to reason.

Just think if that woman had not been blinded by stupid faith she would have gotten into the boat... Maybe this is the true meaning of your joke.

I understand the point of your joke but you seemed to have missed the point of mine.  It had NOTHING to do with the dissolution of reason but rather the lack of faith. 

People who are looking for the extraordinary are missing how simplistic "miracles" can be.  Looking for those supernatural events is NOT how God is going to make you believe.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Non

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Non sequitor.

How so?  The original premise of this post was about miracles.  My response was about what can be identified as a miracle.  How does that not follow?

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Yes, the original post was about the absence of magical miracles from our present-day world. It's not about your perspective - the bible claimed that Jesus was able to bring people from dead to alive by laying hands on them. It doesn't say he consulted medical professionals put in place by God or used CPR - he touched them, and the Holy Spirit made it all better.

So for you, a "miracle" is only about a supernatural event?

Kevin R Brown wrote:
The act of not believing or believing is making an argument. By choosing to accept God, you've made an argument (to yourself in nobody else) that God is real. By choosing to accept the bible as God's message, you've made an argument that it's content is perfectly valid.

This line of reasoning is hardly odd, thanks.

That is not the point of this thread of how I came to believe or not so I'm not going there with this.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Insults are insults. Hate is hate. I can hate you without insulting you, and I can insult you without hating you. I hate Adolf Hitler, but I missed the boat on insulting him. I regularly curse at my computer, but I hardly hate it.

Your argument there is missing facts in order to make it true.  You HATED something your computer did so you cursed.  There is a logical cause and effect there.  Insults are ALWAYS the effect of hatred.  But you are right, you can hate and not insult.  That's not what happened here.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Because God put emergency services into place for us, that's evidence for God still performing miracles to save people. It also still hasn't addressed the original issue, instead opting to tangent away from it into a discussion about your perceptions.

Actually it did from the theological definition of a "miracle."  You expected the supernatural which I suppose answers my first question here; you are only looking for supernatural "miracles" aren't you?

Kevin R Brown wrote:
I wasn't asking you why they hadn't gone for proper treatment. The answer is obvious, and if you 'can't say why', I'll go ahead and step up to the plate: their faith in God.

I asked you why they were not magically healed by the Holy Spirit? Why weren't the faithful at the faith healing center able to lay hands on either girl and heal them? Jesus is very clearly described as doing this very thing for people in the Bible, and very clearly states that anyone of faith can perform the same deed. So, why isn't it working today? Where'd all the magic go running off to?

Your question was "Why didn't the Holy Spirit miraculously heal..." those people.  My answer was about how the "miracle" was the fact that God provided us with ways to get healed.  But again, that's not what you were looking for as a "miracle."  We are at an impasse since I'm not sure you are wanting "miracles" to be anything but supernatural.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razor to I AM: "Amazing how

razor to I AM: "Amazing how you can reduce a thread to insults and cursing without any intelligent thing to say.  Aren't you labeled as a "troll" here for that?  And I thought this was the "kill em with kindness" forum.... "

__________________________________________________________________

 Geezz dude, oh the kindness of my indignant ATHEIST caring jesus, trashing the temple, calling the religious hypocrites, and calling Peter satan ..... and SO too you again in the spirit of my jesus , wake the fuck up , please please , I LOVE YOU ....      Stop spreading lies of god separation dogma to the children and the weak , you devil ....

 

 


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razorphreak wrote:Kevin R

razorphreak wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Yes, the original post was about the absence of magical miracles from our present-day world. It's not about your perspective - the bible claimed that Jesus was able to bring people from dead to alive by laying hands on them. It doesn't say he consulted medical professionals put in place by God or used CPR - he touched them, and the Holy Spirit made it all better.

So for you, a "miracle" is only about a supernatural event?

If something suffers incredulity under an accepted definition, broaden the definition until it's indistinct from a million other concepts, and totally unnecessary as a term. Classic.

I've never seen a Centaur, so I'm going to create an ad hoc definition that extends to fire hydrants. Since I've seen them, I've seen Centaurs. This is moving the goal posts in the opposite direction. Which brings to mind the image of a stationary religious claim, and apologists scrambling toward it with the goal posts in hand.


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razorphreak wrote:Fair

razorphreak wrote:

Fair enough.  From what I am understanding from your other post, you are looking for the definition that a "miracle" is a supernatural event right?  What I'm trying to say is a "miracle" of this type is almost never seen, and worse, never believed. I can tell you that I saw something like that however will you believe me from just me telling you?

No.. i would not say a super natural event. but something out side of an everyday occurrence would be nice.

If everything or anything can be considered a miracle then nothing is a miracle. I am only trying to find evidence of the signs and wonders that are a manifestation of god. The bible states quite clearly what some of these manifestations are.. my questions is... where are they. Should there not be some that could be verifiable?

 

razorphreak wrote:

The bible says that every "good and perfect gift" is from God.  The ability to learn, wisdom given, why some can conceive, why some can't, for those born with 10 fingers and 10 toes and for those who aren't, each "gift" can be different.  Now I'm not saying that I can call everything a miracle since the chicken I just ate was not a miracle it was brought to my table.  Nor was the fact that I stuck it in the oven to cook it, nor was the fact that it cooked.  But there is the possibility that the fact that chickens exist is the miracle?

I will not debate whether or not the chicken is a miracle, let assume it is. in my view all life is a miracle. it did take a lot of factors to be right to produce it, I do not think I could not create such a thing.. but to use this as an evidence of god seems a little narrow.

razorphreak wrote:
No.  That's just good fortune.

Why is my good fortune not classified as a miracle?

if it would have been a bible thumper that used the money for food, would that have made it a miracle.

Where do you draw the line...

razorphreak wrote:
Bible also says that if someone had the faith of a mustard seed much more is possible.  But you did bring up a question in my mind; are you asking about can people do miracles and not God?

no but i understand that god moves through people of faith.. so where is this movement.. where are these signs...

razorphreak wrote:
I understand the point of your joke but you seemed to have missed the point of mine.  It had NOTHING to do with the dissolution of reason but rather the lack of faith.
 

What a minute.. she had so much faith that she refused worldly help in belief god would save her... I don't see god saying.. hey... don't have stupid faith.. look for the obvious.. no matter how you look at this joke it is really about reason based action...

if she put her self in such a position she must have had a little more than a mustard seed of faith.. So did god just decide her stupidity out weighed her faith?

 

razorphreak wrote:
People who are looking for the extraordinary are missing how simplistic "miracles" can be.  Looking for those supernatural events is NOT how God is going to make you believe.

That's all well and good, but it seems more an excuse for no real miracles than an explanation with any validity. in mark he states that these sings will follow those that believe...

once again why are there no signs.. could it be your all wrong?

 

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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magilum wrote:If something

magilum wrote:
If something suffers incredulity under an accepted definition, broaden the definition until it's indistinct from a million other concepts, and totally unnecessary as a term. Classic.

I've never seen a Centaur, so I'm going to create an ad hoc definition that extends to fire hydrants. Since I've seen them, I've seen Centaurs. This is moving the goal posts in the opposite direction. Which brings to mind the image of a stationary religious claim, and apologists scrambling toward it with the goal posts in hand.

Well since you aren't willing to answer the question, by all means, provide a definition for what a "miracle" is...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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magilum wrote:If something

magilum wrote:

If something suffers incredulity under an accepted definition, broaden the definition until it's indistinct from a million other concepts, and totally unnecessary as a term. Classic.

I've never seen a Centaur, so I'm going to create an ad hoc definition that extends to fire hydrants. Since I've seen them, I've seen Centaurs. This is moving the goal posts in the opposite direction. Which brings to mind the image of a stationary religious claim, and apologists scrambling toward it with the goal posts in hand.

well said this was a point I was trying to make to. Mark did lay out the signs that would follow those that believe.

Where are these signs?  I must admit I was looking for the signs not excuses.

 

 

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Geezz

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
Geezz dude, oh the kindness of my indignant ATHEIST caring jesus, trashing the temple, calling the religious hypocrites, and calling Peter satan ..... and SO too you again in the spirit of my jesus , wake the fuck up , please please , I LOVE YOU ....      Stop spreading lies of god separation dogma to the children and the weak , you devil ....

You still aren't contributing to the thread so I'll say this with as much *ahem* "love" as possible; please, stop threadjacking.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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edit: double post 

edit: double post


 


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Renshia wrote:No.. i would

Renshia wrote:
No.. i would not say a super natural event. but something out side of an everyday occurrence would be nice.

Like what?  I don't see a woman giving birth everyday so that would be outside an everyday occurrence for me.  If you were a OB-GYN, you'd see that differently right?  Or let's say that that today, my talking to someone prevented them from committing suicide.  Talking to that person was an everyday thing to me, but to them the fact that I did changed their mind that instant.  Is that a miracle?

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to redefine anything here, I'm trying to get down to where we both are seeing it from the same set of eyes.

Renshia wrote:
Should there not be some that could be verifiable?

To the world or to yourself?

Renshia wrote:
I will not debate whether or not the chicken is a miracle, let assume it is. in my view all life is a miracle. it did take a lot of factors to be right to produce it, I do not think I could not create such a thing.. but to use this as an evidence of god seems a little narrow.

It wasn't.  Actually, it was more to prove what a miracle is.  Kinda sounded like you agreed...

Renshia wrote:
Why is my good fortune not classified as a miracle?

if it would have been a bible thumper that used the money for food, would that have made it a miracle.

Where do you draw the line...

I think this is where I need to ask you, how do you define a miracle?

Renshia wrote:
no but i understand that god moves through people of faith.. so where is this movement.. where are these signs...

This I don't understand.  "Moves through people of faith?" 

Renshia wrote:
she had so much faith that she refused worldly help in belief god would save her... I don't see god saying.. hey... don't have stupid faith.. look for the obvious.. no matter how you look at this joke it is really about reason based action...

if she put her self in such a position she must have had a little more than a mustard seed of faith.. So did god just decide her stupidity out weighed her faith?

I'm thinking you might be reading more into it than you should.

There are tons of stories in the bible that are similar to the joke, not to mention tons of other examples such as the two who didn't seek the medical attention they needed as other ways to say the same story.  It's not about how much or how little their faith; they were testing God to produce that was so beyond their comprehension so they could believe it themselves.  You and I know fish can't survive outside water.  But we want to know God exists where he would allow a fish to live outside water.  So what do we do?  Take a fish out of the water, drop it, and wait for God right?  We already know the truth but yet we still test God?  Doesn't seem logical to me to do that...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:Keep in

razorphreak wrote:

Keep in mind, I'm not trying to redefine anything here, I'm trying to get down to where we both are seeing it from the same set of eyes.

giving birth is an every day occurrence. So I think you grasp what I am saying but just dragging out the conversation because you have no answer. I have qualified what would constitute a miracle. Maybe not to it's entire capacity but with in the scope of your bible.

for clarity lets just work within the scope of the versus in mark that state.

Renshia wrote:

In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

I would ask we leave out the demon one, for obvious reasons as stated above in another post.  But the rest, lets use those as examples.

the bible says these signs will accompany those who believe". so lets just go with those signs.

Let's say we will limit the scope of the miracles down to the ones that will follow those who believe?

razorphreak wrote:

quote=Renshia]Should there not be some that could be verifiable?

To the world or to yourself?

Both. In today's day and age... with modern tech as it is.. both.

razorphreak wrote:
It wasn't.  Actually, it was more to prove what a miracle is.  Kinda sounded like you agreed...

Well of course I do.. this is a marvelous universe. It holds an unknown amount of mysteries to me..

Do you think that just because people have atheistic beliefs we can not see it as miraculous?

It doesn't mean it is, doesn't mean there isn't a reasonable explanation.. it just means I think it is miraculous... life is miraculous.. i won't deny that.

But it does seem pretty empty headed to think that what we don't understand is a manifestation of god. That is just not reasonable..

Where are "these signs will accompany those who believe"

I think the reason why you are trying to make this so complicated is because they don't exist.

I think that you would rather stick you head in the sand before you would question the validity of your faith.

You lessen yourself because you so much want to believe it's true your willing to deny your reason.

What a horrible empty void to live in.

 

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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Renshia wrote:What a

Renshia wrote:

What a horrible empty void to live in.

And I know it is because I have been there.


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razorphreak wrote:magilum

razorphreak wrote:

magilum wrote:
If something suffers incredulity under an accepted definition, broaden the definition until it's indistinct from a million other concepts, and totally unnecessary as a term. Classic.

I've never seen a Centaur, so I'm going to create an ad hoc definition that extends to fire hydrants. Since I've seen them, I've seen Centaurs. This is moving the goal posts in the opposite direction. Which brings to mind the image of a stationary religious claim, and apologists scrambling toward it with the goal posts in hand.

Well since you aren't willing to answer the question, by all means, provide a definition for what a "miracle" is...

I don't know what question you're referring to. I picked on one sentence I happened to read, and replied to it for laughs. It's impossible for me to get into even an adversarial mindset with a person on your level of self-delusion, but since you imply there's a question on the table, I'll do my best to entertain it in the name of lulz.

I apply the criteria to miracle that science does to the rest of the supernatural, which is that confirmation of such an event is impossible. We could, at best, say that something remains unknown in some way; but to draw a conclusion from an unknown is an argument from ignorance. So if an unlikely even happens, it's not safe to suppose some non-sequitur as the reason for it. A miracle could happen in the common sense of the word, but its status would be identical to any unknown. So I accept the common definition, which I think I'd already implied -- but not that an example of it has been demonstrated, or that such a thing could be satisfactorily confirmed.

That being said, your definition, again, conflates the term into meaninglessness. Which is hilarious.


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Miracles

Renshia wrote:

 

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

 

And that is exactly what happens.

I haven't performed a miracle myself, nor have I had a 'miracle' performed on me. However, I know people who are capable of performing miracles, who are totally under the protection of the Lord.

Hm. I say people.. I only know one person, however I know others are able to do the same, but not to such a great extent.

Christians, these days believe Christianity is about reading the Bible, going to Church and trying to live their lives as God would want them to. That's an average Christians belief anyway.

However what if I was to point out that you can talk to God, as if having a convosation with a perfectly real person. This, you can do. You start off with basic 'Yes' / 'No' answers, but you work on it, you ask God about everything and everything works out perfectly. You become more able to talk to God. This means you are able to lead an almost perfect life, without the need to worry about any questions or doubts, you can have God tell you everything. (Any none believer who replies to this saying something along the lines of, "I just asked God a question, he never replied!", is a fool.)

The person I was refering to, who was able to perform Miracles is in constant convosation with God. He has had crowds part for him, without even looking. He's terrified gangs to the point of making them flee. God works through him and in him, although as I'm writing this I realise these aren't as such the Miracles you're looking for.

Miracles do happen. You hear very little about them of course, I could go on for a while about how the media is under demonic influence, how people are so infected and ignorant to reality, therefore Christianity proof is rarely ever surfaced. My Father knows a person who fell from his balcony when it crumbled away, he fell to the pavement headfirst, head cracked open, brain tissue splattered around him and all the blood drained from his body. - make a long story short, he came back to life in the morgue, and lived a perfectly healthy live. He says he went to heaven and was toured around heaven and hell, before being sent back.

There are many many miracles happening. If you are a true believer, if you've asked God what your purpose is and you're following that path you will be blessed.

 

I've blabbered on too much. This Forum, from what I've seen is truely pathetic, you're all quoting verses from the Bible, nitpicking the smallest of errors. God didn't write the Bible, people did. It can never be 100% perfect. Aah well. I hope you one day get saved, become a born again Christian. And then you can truely see how blind you all are.

 

Well, his name is Joseph Hedgecock, the first guy I was blabbering on about - if anyone fancies Google'ing it or whatever. - however you won't hear these stories on a website, you'll have to subscribe to the newsletter.

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GOD HI-JACK ers and

  GOD HI-JACK ers and miracles !

Modern troupe-ers  , proving miracles for free  !      

GOD LOVER - Benny Hinn: Let the Bodies Hit the Floor   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

  I LOVE atheist Jesus  .....  Buddha too ..... God = NO miracles

"Jesus is Just Alright"   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy9uf9720mo&feature=related

XIANS piss me OFF ..... they embarrass my human dignity ..... so to heal them ....

   Sharpen thy "SWORD" ! yes yes JESUS ! ..... and then someday PEACE can be .... Thank you atheist jesus .....  We are ONE , no MASTER  .....      


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Okay i going to have to

Okay i going to have to break this up a little bit... this may take days.

Walsh wrote:
I know people who are capable of performing miracles, who are totally under the protection of the Lord.

Well, his name is Joseph Hedgecock, the first guy,

Well that is a great start. I have emailed the organization and will follow up on their response.

Here is a copy of the email I sent:

richard wrote:
Hi,
I was recently involved in a discussion forum on the topic of miracles.
A gentleman suggested that the founder of your ministry has and does have God working through him to perform miracles. That he has healed the sick. I would like to inquire as to, if this is true and if you have any documented miracles that are verifiable?

If you could let me know, I would much appreciate it. If you would be willing to supply me with the contact information necessary to verify these claims as well that would be great to.
Kindest Regards,
Richard

Sorry I  just realized I assumed you are a guy.. no offense if I am wrong.

Walsh wrote:
However what if I was to point out that you can talk to God, as if having a conversation with a perfectly real person. This, you can do. You start off with basic 'Yes' / 'No' answers, but you work on it, you ask God about everything and everything works out perfectly. You become more able to talk to God. This means you are able to lead an almost perfect life, without the need to worry about any questions or doubts, you can have God tell you everything. (Any none believer who replies to this saying something along the lines of, "I just asked God a question, he never replied!", is a fool.)

No I have to admit. this scares me. I will not go into all the ways this scares me because I do not want  to turn into a phcyho therapy sessions about giving to much credibility to voices in your head. So I will leave this alone.

Well except for one little for warning... Recently there was a very devote christian that was listening to voices in his head. He ended up killing his 16 year old daughter because god told him to.. Please try to use a little better judgment than that.

Walsh wrote:
The person I was referring to, who was able to perform Miracles is in constant conversation with God. He has had crowds part for him, without even looking. He's terrified gangs to the point of making them flee. God works through him and in him, although as I'm writing this I realize these aren't as such the Miracles you're looking for.

No.. that does nothing to explain why we don't see any of the miracles that the bible professes will follow those who believe. Nice story though.

However. I will tell you I am a person of devote atheistic beliefs. And I am told I have an imposing aura about me. often when I walk into throngs of people I see people move out of my way. and while working in the streets of Chicago years ago walked into situations in which gang members fled.... Ain't no god had a hand in that.

so as much as it is nice... don't mean nothing. And the constant convo with god in his head.. well I suggest we start a new thread and pursue this..... angle. That one I expect would create a fair amount of input.

Walsh wrote:
My Father knows a person who fell from his balcony when it crumbled away, he fell to the pavement headfirst, head cracked open, brain tissue splattered around him and all the blood drained from his body. - make a long story short, he came back to life in the morgue, and lived a perfectly healthy live.

Now that's what I want to see.. a real one.. OKAY.... can you provide a name, place, which morgue, date of said miracle, attending coroner, maybe a police report or a police dept I could call to get the info.

Please note It is not that don't believe you but I have heard of such things before.. They always turn out to be heard of by someones bests friends distant uncle... Never found a real one yet, so please forgive me for my caution.

Walsh wrote:
I've blabbered on too much.

Well really you were good right up until then...:LOL

Walsh wrote:
Aah well. I hope you one day get saved, become a born again Christian. And then you can truly see how blind you all are.

And I hope that you will see you are wasting your life on a lie, a delusion that will rot your life away and leave you missing the best part of it.. that is living.


You follow a religion that promises you freedom and It will make you a slave.

Will promise you peace , and give you a life of guilt instead.

Will offer you salvation and steal the only life you have giving nothing in return.

Renshia
-------------------------------------------------------------
I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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Quote:Your question was "Why

Quote:
Your question was "Why didn't the Holy Spirit miraculously heal..." those people.  My answer was about how the "miracle" was the fact that God provided us with ways to get healed.  But again, that's not what you were looking for as a "miracle."  We are at an impasse since I'm not sure you are wanting "miracles" to be anything but supernatural.

'Impasse' my ass.

mir-a-cle

-noun

1.an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3.a wonder; marvel.
4.a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

So, it's either a supernatural event or synonym for wonder, according to the American Heritage dictionary. No hint that, used conventionally, 'miracle' can be used to describe ordinary events like an EMT saving someone's life or a doctor performing surgery.

Quote:
My Father knows a person who fell from his balcony when it crumbled away, he fell to the pavement headfirst, head cracked open, brain tissue splattered around him and all the blood drained from his body. - make a long story short, he came back to life in the morgue, and lived a perfectly healthy live. He says he went to heaven and was toured around heaven and hell, before being sent back.

You need to get back on your meds.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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I recommend LSD , under

   I recommend LSD , under scientific professional care of enlightened caring experts, meaning the best you can find .... Better yet , do 40 days alone with the devil , Jesus did, the bible told me so  !        

Looking for god ?  Was the looking your own idea ? Looking for what again ? A meaning to life,  and an afterlife of heaven bliss too boot ? Wow , what a novel idea ..... I must pray for that ...... great idea ..... maybe I can find some like wishers, oh yeah , the church of me me me me me me me me me me me NEVER wants to die , and I AM so scared ..... to live , to then die .....

Yes I know my caring one, come to my church , I promise you , WHAT EVER YOU WANT, just ask and recieve, come to me ,  with a seed of caring and offering , and I will keep promising you heaven .....

SUPPORT your MASTER , Fear ,  and so pay me for relief  .....  Well at least pray in support of god's religion  ......   god thanks you  ..... and fuck science , the work of the devil. The tree of knowledge is evil .....don't eat from it , or you will be cast out on your own  .......  bow and be humble  .....  after all , you don't know  ...... 

You need ME , a MASTER   sorry ran out of beer , the wisdom ( I meant stupid) went dry ....    


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Why do I want to kiss that

Why do I want to kiss that Renne ?   What's with my head ?  Why did I type that ? ummm,  Oh sheezzz, and Shelley my Joy, and Girl Dancing , and Kelley TOO !  and and and all the rest of that stuff ....... 

What the hell is going here , whatever , I like it ......  man oh man,  I AM, what I AM !

I spell    M   A   N    , whatever that is      ?????  Must do the Science ..... 

"I'M so glad , I'M so glad, I'M GLAD I'M glad I'M glad" .......   'CREAM'    ( first big Eric Clapton Rock Band )   ...... Whiskey eric Wisdom is SO deep             LOL , "You really got me"  ..... the KINKS     a Van  Halen cover !  ummm  , Are we are all in a spell ???   ME out of control ??? ..... no way ..... I AM GOD AS YOU ....     I think !

                   6 plus billion and going ...... and more than

10,000 Maniacs - Candy Everybody Wants (Video)  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krAqPqhjqEQ

 


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Some people are just

  Some people are just fucking NUTS, yeah , I admit it .....

So what will we do with me ?  Well ? , Shoot me when I AM not looking, that would be most kindly , why punish me? , seems a waste of time , but let me guess, you would slowly crucify me on a cross , and call it gods gift .... a holy blood sacrifice to saving humanity ?   I hate xains way of thinking ..... I really do ..... Fuck you Xains, me Jesus ..... 

Like I said, I AM GOD  ..... what are you ?  .... NOT GOD ????  sheezzzzz ,  ouch  ((((  

 

[ me + beer + whiskey + marywanna =    triple bad. ] 


Walsh
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Miracles

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
I know people who are capable of performing miracles, who are totally under the protection of the Lord.

Well, his name is Joseph Hedgecock, the first guy,

Well that is a great start. I have emailed the organization and will follow up on their response.

Here is a copy of the email I sent:

richard wrote:
Hi,
I was recently involved in a discussion forum on the topic of miracles.
A gentleman suggested that the founder of your ministry has and does have God working through him to perform miracles. That he has healed the sick. I would like to inquire as to, if this is true and if you have any documented miracles that are verifiable?

If you could let me know, I would much appreciate it. If you would be willing to supply me with the contact information necessary to verify these claims as well that would be great to.
Kindest Regards,
Richard

Sorry I  just realized I assumed you are a guy.. no offense if I am wrong.

SOLM Ministries? I'd of rather you worded it somewhat differently. I'm not sure about healing Miracles. But certainly unnatural, miraclulous protection.. minor Miracles. Nevertheless, I'm expecting you'll still get a somewhat interesting reply.

And yes, I am a guy.

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
However what if I was to point out that you can talk to God, as if having a conversation with a perfectly real person. This, you can do. You start off with basic 'Yes' / 'No' answers, but you work on it, you ask God about everything and everything works out perfectly. You become more able to talk to God. This means you are able to lead an almost perfect life, without the need to worry about any questions or doubts, you can have God tell you everything. (Any none believer who replies to this saying something along the lines of, "I just asked God a question, he never replied!", is a fool.)

No I have to admit. this scares me. I will not go into all the ways this scares me because I do not want  to turn into a phcyho therapy sessions about giving to much credibility to voices in your head. So I will leave this alone.

Well except for one little for warning... Recently there was a very devote christian that was listening to voices in his head. He ended up killing his 16 year old daughter because god told him to.. Please try to use a little better judgment than that.

Aah don't worry. I'm not crazy - you'll just have to take my word for that Laughing out loud

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
The person I was referring to, who was able to perform Miracles is in constant conversation with God. He has had crowds part for him, without even looking. He's terrified gangs to the point of making them flee. God works through him and in him, although as I'm writing this I realize these aren't as such the Miracles you're looking for.

No.. that does nothing to explain why we don't see any of the miracles that the bible professes will follow those who believe. Nice story though.

However. I will tell you I am a person of devote atheistic beliefs. And I am told I have an imposing aura about me. often when I walk into throngs of people I see people move out of my way. and while working in the streets of Chicago years ago walked into situations in which gang members fled.... Ain't no god had a hand in that.

so as much as it is nice... don't mean nothing. And the constant convo with god in his head.. well I suggest we start a new thread and pursue this..... angle. That one I expect would create a fair amount of input.

I'll quickly tell the 'gang' story as well as I can remember it.

Joesph Hedgecock, when he was alot younger - was a security guard of a well protected warehouse, holding expensive goods. He was formerly in the army and had amazing reactions when it came to drawing his weapon, shooting someone.

Now I'm not exactly sure how, something to do with his job - but he got into trouble with a large gang, who were sending him death threats. They told him to meet them in a car park (?). Joeseph asked God what to do, he told him to go, and to leave his weapons in his car.

So he went, and the whole gang had him surrounded - as the first gang member came forward to attack him, their eyes met. At that point his face turned, totally terrified, horrified, shocked .. the whole gang miraculously fled.

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
My Father knows a person who fell from his balcony when it crumbled away, he fell to the pavement headfirst, head cracked open, brain tissue splattered around him and all the blood drained from his body. - make a long story short, he came back to life in the morgue, and lived a perfectly healthy live.

Now that's what I want to see.. a real one.. OKAY.... can you provide a name, place, which morgue, date of said miracle, attending coroner, maybe a police report or a police dept I could call to get the info.

Please note It is not that don't believe you but I have heard of such things before.. They always turn out to be heard of by someones bests friends distant uncle... Never found a real one yet, so please forgive me for my caution.

lol. Unfortunately I don't know the details. However, there is a certain website you may be interested in .. just spent about 30mins looking for this website, can't find it again sorry :$ .. it was basically a TV Show, which had people talking about going to hell and heaven, etc. If you Google something along the lines of, "Christian Supernatural TV", you can find similar websites =)

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
I've blabbered on too much.

Well really you were good right up until then...:LOL

Aah well. I'm glad you found my post somewhat interesting.

Renshia wrote:

Walsh wrote:
Aah well. I hope you one day get saved, become a born again Christian. And then you can truly see how blind you all are.

And I hope that you will see you are wasting your life on a lie, a delusion that will rot your life away and leave you missing the best part of it.. that is living.


You follow a religion that promises you freedom and It will make you a slave.

Will promise you peace , and give you a life of guilt instead.

Will offer you salvation and steal the only life you have giving nothing in return.

Well for one second, lets suppose I am wrong with this Christianity stuff. In what way am I wasting my life? I live to forgive, I stay clear of trouble and have a perfectly peaceful happy life, as a Christian you feel more secure and you enjoy life more, in my opinion.

It's a healthy life choice, and if you truely believe and devote yourself to the Lord, then you do get blessed, and live is oh so much more better.

 

Edit: There is a very interesting TV programme on Wednesdays, 10PM. It's called 'The Real Exorcist'. It's real, and will give you something to think about. It's on Virgin 1.

primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/the-real-exorcist-coming-to-virgin-1/

 

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Walsh wrote:SOLM Ministries?

Walsh wrote:

SOLM Ministries? I'd of rather you worded it somewhat differently. I'm not sure about healing Miracles. But certainly unnatural, miraculous protection.. minor Miracles. Nevertheless, I'm expecting you'll still get a somewhat interesting reply.

Walsh wrote:
I know people who are capable of performing miracles, who are totally under the protection of the Lord.

Walsh wrote:
The person I was referring to, who was able to perform Miracles is in constant conversation with God.

Wait a minute. In your first post you were quite confident that this guy does miracles and is under the protection of the lord. What happened over night to change that... is it because your worried that what you professed is not the TRUTH??

Update... no response from SOLM Ministries as of when I started this post.

 

Walsh wrote:
Aah don't worry. I'm not crazy - you'll just have to take my word for that :D

Well just so you know you may want to keep these conversations to your self. I have known a few that have professed this sort of thing and they are now heavily medicated.

 

Walsh wrote:
I'll quickly tell the 'gang' story as well as I can remember it.

Joesph Hedgecock, when he was a lot younger - was a security guard of a well protected warehouse, holding expensive goods. He was formerly in the army and had amazing reactions when it came to drawing his weapon, shooting someone.

Now I'm not exactly sure how, something to do with his job - but he got into trouble with a large gang, who were sending him death threats. They told him to meet them in a car park (?). Joesph asked God what to do, he told him to go, and to leave his weapons in his car.

So he went, and the whole gang had him surrounded - as the first gang member came forward to attack him, their eyes met. At that point his face turned, totally terrified, horrified, shocked .. the whole gang miraculously fled.

That's a nice story, but is there anyone to verify this. One thing I have always wondered about is why there is never any one to verify these wonderful stories. Are any of the gang members around to tell their side?

Walsh wrote:
lol. Unfortunately I don't know the details.

See just another story with out any validity. Did I ever tell you the one when evangelist Lawrence Trafford claimed to raise the dead. He was in kelowna when a Friends friend was in a bad car accident. Lawrence and his gang showed up at the hospital and stood around praying.. The guy was died while on route. Lawrence prayed and the doctors used a defibrillator machine.. the guy lived. Now according to Lawrence god worked through him and he was given life... But he failed to mention that it was the doctors that brought him back....

it is easy to twist the truth when you have an agenda.

 

Walsh wrote:
Well for one second, lets suppose I am wrong with this Christianity stuff. In what way am I wasting my life? I live to forgive, I stay clear of trouble and have a perfectly peaceful happy life, as a Christian you feel more secure and you enjoy life more, in my opinion.

It's a healthy life choice, and if you truly believe and devote yourself to the Lord, then you do get blessed, and live is oh so much more better.

Well let me break this down for you.

First off. you waste your life by wasting energy on what is not true.

It is like the guy that never sailed because he was scared he would fall off the edge of the flat world.

You will never know what you missing until you are no longer satisfied by the limits your beliefs have set for  and go beyond them.

you waste you life by investing so much into a belief that is not true when you could put this energy and resources into things that are real.. say family, friends or neighbors... each moment you spend devoted to an invisible god is energy you could have invested into something real.

You waste you energy on the guilt, that religion uses to control their people, always trying to live up to some mythological standard of what is right and what is wrong.

You waste your life on trying to uphold archaic beliefs and prejudice that the bible dictates are truths.

Think of how much time is wasted on maintaining your belief system. money invested in maintaining that belief system.. if you are a true christian, then you donate your tithe to the church.. you waste your efforts only to support a preacher that probably just lives off your generosity.. milking you for all they can.

Walsh wrote:
Edit: There is a very interesting TV program on Wednesdays, 10PM. It's called 'The Real Exorcist'. It's real, and will give you something to think about. It's on Virgin 1.

primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/the-real-exorcist-coming-to-virgin-1/

 

Well obviously no one ever told you... TV is never real..

How do you know this is real.. because of the name?

what have you done to verify this is real?..

Have you been there to see this exorcist being performed?

Did you know any of the people involved?

That is like saying reality TV is real... it is however just edited to tell a story the way they want the world to see it...

I belonged to a church called the Cleft in the Rock. one Sunday it was announced by the pastor that one of the member of the church that was having a hard time staying sober was to have his demon cast out at the next service. Well that evening all showed up.. even the guy that had the demon.. well towards the end of the service it was decided  that it was time to cast out this demon...well  the guy squirmed yelled growled and the Preacher yelled in jesus name for the demon to come out.. but all it was was a ply for the guy to have an excuse for the shitty things he did...

it was all a farce...

no man I have been on the road your on I was only looking to find joy and happiness in my life.. I thought i had it until I saw that I had to give up my reason to accept by faith what I new was wrong...

We have an instinct within us.. call it a gut feeling... this is an instinct for self preservation... but just because you know what is right or wrong doesn't mean it is god speaking...Give your self a little credit... maybe your just smarter that you give your self credit for..

This is one main thorn in my collar about religion... this is why it is reductive..

when ever the religious do or have good things happen.. all the glory goes to god, but when something goes wrong.. then it is all your fault... why is it wrong to accept responsibility for all good you have done.. and if he is responsible for the good why is he not responsible for some of the bad...

seems very lopsided. Always giving the good away and always heaping the bad unto your own shoulders..

 

 

Renshia
-------------------------------------------------------------
I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


Eloise
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Renshia wrote:razorphreak

 

Renshia wrote:
Quote:

In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

I would ask we leave out the demon one, for obvious reasons as stated above in another post.  But the rest, lets use those as examples.

the bible says these signs will accompany those who believe". so lets just go with those signs.

Let's say we will limit the scope of the miracles down to the ones that will follow those who believe?

ROFLMFAO! I love this subject, this is one of my favourites. Check this out:

This is my Father (when he was about 25).

 

 

My Father is an agnostic atheist.

 

edit: And for clarification here the big snake in his right hand is a Tiger Snake.

"Tiger snake venom is very potent and contains neurotoxins, both pre and post-synaptic, myolysins, and procoagulants."

{http://www.toxinology.com/generic_static_files/cslavh_antivenom_tiger.html#venom}

He has been bitten and he did clinically die from a bite and survive to tell the tale. As such he believes in something beyond death; as of his experiences he is sure it is not to be feared and is actually nice. Still he is completely unreligious and does not claim a belief in any 'Gods'.

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

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Renshia wrote:giving birth

Renshia wrote:
giving birth is an every day occurrence. So I think you grasp what I am saying but just dragging out the conversation because you have no answer. I have qualified what would constitute a miracle.

Did you? 

I have no desire to drag out anything.  I have an answer, I've stated my answer, but it isn't what you were looking for so it's been dismissed.  I'm still researching more for you on the Mark 16 piece so I'll come back to it, I promise.

Renshia wrote:
Do you think that just because people have atheistic beliefs we can not see it as miraculous?

Now who said that?  What I ACTUALLY think is more like trying to reduce the amazing and miraculous to the "everyday" since our perceptions of what happens on a daily basis are different.

I'll post again soon on a more detailed response for Mark 16.

 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:
'Impasse' my ass.

mir-a-cle

-noun

1.an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2.such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3.a wonder; marvel.
4.a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics.

So, it's either a supernatural event or synonym for wonder, according to the American Heritage dictionary. No hint that, used conventionally, 'miracle' can be used to describe ordinary events like an EMT saving someone's life or a doctor performing surgery.

If you go to a 3rd world country that has no knowledge of CPR, like some areas of Africa, would they look at it like a miracle that you knew how to do that?  Is it not a case of wonder to marvel over the fact that humans actually figured out how to save themselves?  Today, sure we see it happen often enough so our wonder has faded but not to everyone.  So again, what level of a "miracle" are we talking about?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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magilum wrote:I don't know

magilum wrote:
I don't know what question you're referring to. I picked on one sentence I happened to read, and replied to it for laughs. It's impossible for me to get into even an adversarial mindset with a person on your level of self-delusion, but since you imply there's a question on the table, I'll do my best to entertain it in the name of lulz.

I apply the criteria to miracle that science does to the rest of the supernatural, which is that confirmation of such an event is impossible. We could, at best, say that something remains unknown in some way; but to draw a conclusion from an unknown is an argument from ignorance. So if an unlikely even happens, it's not safe to suppose some non-sequitur as the reason for it. A miracle could happen in the common sense of the word, but its status would be identical to any unknown. So I accept the common definition, which I think I'd already implied -- but not that an example of it has been demonstrated, or that such a thing could be satisfactorily confirmed.

That being said, your definition, again, conflates the term into meaninglessness. Which is hilarious.

The question was about what level must you call it a miracle.  I guess your answer by this post is "the supernatural" only.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:magilum

razorphreak wrote:

magilum wrote:
I don't know what question you're referring to. I picked on one sentence I happened to read, and replied to it for laughs. It's impossible for me to get into even an adversarial mindset with a person on your level of self-delusion, but since you imply there's a question on the table, I'll do my best to entertain it in the name of lulz.

I apply the criteria to miracle that science does to the rest of the supernatural, which is that confirmation of such an event is impossible. We could, at best, say that something remains unknown in some way; but to draw a conclusion from an unknown is an argument from ignorance. So if an unlikely even happens, it's not safe to suppose some non-sequitur as the reason for it. A miracle could happen in the common sense of the word, but its status would be identical to any unknown. So I accept the common definition, which I think I'd already implied -- but not that an example of it has been demonstrated, or that such a thing could be satisfactorily confirmed.

That being said, your definition, again, conflates the term into meaninglessness. Which is hilarious.

The question was about what level must you call it a miracle.  I guess your answer by this post is "the supernatural" only.

Reductionist.

EDIT: You left out the part where I point out that a miracle could not legitimately be confirmed. You're stuck either making an argument from ignorance (I don't know how something happened, therefore it supports whatever I want) or conflating something hugger-mugger and explainable with the generally acknowledged meaning of the word (the miracle of finding parking).


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Eloise wrote: ROFLMFAO! I

Eloise wrote:

 

ROFLMFAO! I love this subject, this is one of my favorites.

 

My Father is an agnostic atheist.

 

edit: And for clarification here the big snake in his right hand is a Tiger Snake.

"Tiger snake venom is very potent and contains neurotoxins, both pre and post-synaptic, myolysins, and procoagulants."

{http://www.toxinology.com/generic_static_files/cslavh_antivenom_tiger.html#venom}

He has been bitten and he did clinically die from a bite and survive to tell the tale. As such he believes in something beyond death; as of his experiences he is sure it is not to be feared and is actually nice. Still he is completely irreligious and does not claim a belief in any 'Gods'.

Wow that's super cool. that will go great with a post I will be putting up soon.

Imagine that, God doing a miracle on an agnostic.. and the credit was flushed down the toilet with skepticism.

God should pick better subjects. One good miracle down the drain.

Wonder if god was miffed because he didn't get the credit? He wasn't hit by lightening shortly after, from what I read god is very petty about sharing credit... or do you think maybe because it is the last days, it could have been the devil??? How are we to know??

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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Just an update on the email

Just an update on the email to solm... no response as of this post... Hmm do you think they are ignoring me.. oh being sunday they are probably busy. Got to bring them together, to crack the whip less one stray away.

Renshia
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I just can’t believe that people waste all this time being one thing for something else, they waste all this time and energy on developing some mythological construct as an excuse to live as a person should. What a pathetic waste of energy.


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would you believe?

Renshia, would you believe the miracles if you heard about them?  I'm afraid if you cannot, then hearing about a million of them wouldn't help at all.  I say this because I have heard of a number of miracles, and not just "everyday" ones. 


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Joe_Canon wrote:Renshia,

Joe_Canon wrote:

Renshia, would you believe the miracles if you heard about them?  I'm afraid if you cannot, then hearing about a million of them wouldn't help at all.  I say this because I have heard of a number of miracles, and not just "everyday" ones. 

What if he's unable to believe because the evidence is all garbage? Is his incredulity still support for, or neutral to, your position?

If your position was strong, you wouldn't need to go through these contortions. You have tradition on your side, you have popularity on your side, you have many dedicated people trying to vindicate themselves... and yet they've produced nothing but bad philosophy and logical fallacies. The world is trudging along with technology and social progress (or change, if you're a relativist), and religion has been a very costly ballast.


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Sorry, but

I did not ask you Magilum.


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Renshia wrote:Eloise

Renshia wrote:

Eloise wrote:

 

ROFLMFAO! I love this subject, this is one of my favorites.

 

My Father is an agnostic atheist.

 

edit: And for clarification here the big snake in his right hand is a Tiger Snake.

"Tiger snake venom is very potent and contains neurotoxins, both pre and post-synaptic, myolysins, and procoagulants."

{http://www.toxinology.com/generic_static_files/cslavh_antivenom_tiger.html#venom}

He has been bitten and he did clinically die from a bite and survive to tell the tale. As such he believes in something beyond death; as of his experiences he is sure it is not to be feared and is actually nice. Still he is completely irreligious and does not claim a belief in any 'Gods'.

Wow that's super cool. that will go great with a post I will be putting up soon.

Imagine that, God doing a miracle on an agnostic.. and the credit was flushed down the toilet with skepticism.

God should pick better subjects. One good miracle down the drain.

Wonder if god was miffed because he didn't get the credit? He wasn't hit by lightening shortly after, from what I read god is very petty about sharing credit...

Haha.. No, he showed snakes for a living for several years, before that he just collected them because he liked them. That picture was taken in his snake pit, a long time ago when snake handlers were allowed to have their snakes free in the pit, it's not allowed any more. Afterward he got married and had seven kids and brought them all up to be skeptical of religious claims.

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