Why all the fuss?

DadaMungo
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Why all the fuss?

One conundrum that I really would enjoy some input on is:

If God doesn't exist, then there is no "higher" purpose. On a micro level, if there's no after-life then does it make a difference what I do? On a macro level, the universe is going to go go 'Phutt!' and fizzle into dark, empty, cold nothingness, so our existence as a species is trumped, evolution or not.

So why are we having these conversations? Does it really make a difference? On either micro or macro level I'd have to say no. What's the atheist response to that?

It's no good to say that religion or any sense of purpose is simply an evolutionary tool for the perpetuation of the species, because evolution loses in the end (see 2nd para above).

But aren't there also ethical issues here (I appreciate the catch-22 here)? Isn't our creating a purpose for our existence (i.e. one that exludes God) a delusion? As it says in the Matrix file (was it the second one?), 'Without purpose, there is no life/existence.' We all need one, but we're being duped...

Regards,

Dada Mungo


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DadaMungo wrote:I've been

DadaMungo wrote:

I've been chewing on this thread quite a bit throughout the last day (so again, my thanks to you guys for the stimulation!) I'd like to ask if you could state categorically what it is you object to in theists. What is it that gets your goat about them? I mean, we all live with delusion to some degree or another, so why does theirs bother you? Is it simply the threat that you perceive they pose to your (and all humankind's) security and future?

We do all live with delusions. Mine is that we can be greater than we are now, that humankind can eventually reach the planets, and then move out into the stars, and eventually spread out from our earth. My greatest wish is that my daughter might one day stand on the surface of the moon.

As for my disagreements with religion: I've seen what it can do to rationality. Baghdad went from being the center of enlightenment to being... well, what it was 100 years ago. This was due in a large part to the influence of fundamentalist Islam.

Now, in the United States, fundamentalist Christians are working hard to do the same to the western world. They fight against the teaching of evolution, using misinformation as a weapon.  They wish to disallow basic rights to homosexuals, such as the right to legal marriage. They would shut down entire fields of research based on a morality that is based on religion, not ethics. They would have the worst possible President based on the candidate's faith, rather than their suitability for the position.

Anyone who sacrifices truth, ethics, and judgement simply for the sake of their religion is dangerous. There isn't a perception of a threat-- it is a threat.

That doesn't even touch on the ethics of information. I believe it is unethical to spread false information. Every decision we make relies on information. If that information is inaccurate, or worse, downright wrong, the decisions will be poor. These decisions adversely affect real lives, every day. I know that theists don't all spread misinformation. I also know there are a lot of non-theists who spread a lot of misinformation (even atheists, probably including me).

It's gotten to the point where sorting truth from lies is becoming increasingly difficult. I try to confront misinformation wherever it may be. One place is with theism.

DadaMungo wrote:

Another question I'd like to throw in (just out of curiosity) is: if the significant majority of the human race seems to "need" delusion, how would that be explained in evolutionary terms? Could it be that we "need" the security blanket of delusion to help us sleep at night? Could it be that if the whole earth became atheist that we would find other delusions to hold to? Could it be impossible for humankind to live without the need for religion, in whatever form?

And one more: why has evolution brought us to the point that we can actually start asking the question 'why?' What does that benefit us? Why are we so self-conscious?

Excellent questions. There's a lot of research going on concerning these very questions.

This doesn't address your questions directly, but I found it quite a good read:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307277224

It's "Intelligent Thought." It's a collection of essays by various scientists generally concerning a rebuttal of Intelligent Design. However, there's some very good essays on evolution in general, and cognitive evolution specifically.

One thing to keep in mind while thinking about evolution: there is no goal. And also, not every trait has to provide a benefit. For a trait to survive, it simply must not put an organism at a disadvantage compared to other organisms filling the same local niche.

I can surmise why self-consciousness was beneficial, though. Self-awareness makes abstract threat assessment easier. When you can think ahead about how the world will affect you over the next several hours, for instance, you have an advantage over those who do not have the same ability. These are also the same traits that led to rationalism-- the better you are at modelling the real world, the more accurate your threat assessment will be.

I think the whole bit where we learned to ask, "Why?" was simply a byproduct of that. However, that's my own speculation. As I don't do research, I'll let someone else prove or disprove that thesis.

DadaMungo wrote:

One final word: I have stated a few times here that I find that your observations of religion (esp. Christianity) seem to radically depart (to the negative) from what I understand and believe Christianity to be. If these are based upon your actual experiences, then okay, but if they are not, then I would seriously like to help you get a more insightful view so that you positions would not be founded on unsound bias. By this, I am not trying to reclaim lost souls. I just think that, in the interests of true inspection and examination, you should be doing so without the bias that you seem to manifest. I have no problem if you do not care to do so, but I just wanted to make the offer.

I think that's because you are a Christian in Europe. I've found in my (limited) travels, that the U.S. has a special breed of Christian. Not all U.S. Christians are like this, but many are; enough to rather sour one on the whole religion. This comes from personal experience: I was raised Christian during my formative years, renounced Christ when I was in my young teens, and I married a fundamentalist Christian while I was in the army. I was with her for about two very good yars, and one very bad one.

In my experience, the traits of these special U.S. Christians are:

1) A very literal interpretation of the Bible.

Every word of the Bible is the literal truth. The world is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old, because that's about how much time passed between Adam and Eve, and today.

2) Wilful ignorance.

They would rather ignore the results of scientific research than revise their dogmatic, literal interpretation of the Bible. This leads to denying evolution, for instance. (There's other things they deny too, like huge parts of astronomy, as that disproves their conception of a young earth.)

3) A conviction that they and their congregation are the only True Christians.

I hear it all the time: "Oh, they don't believe foo, which is quite plainly stated in the Bible, and so they aren't Real Christians."

"Foo" can be full body immersion baptism vs. sprinkling; or it can mean that a wife are supposed to serve the husband, and the husband is her master; or any other such matter of Biblical interpretation. The Bible is quite literal, and so there is only one possible interpretation.

4) An aggressive distrust of anyone not of their faith.

Here, "faith" often means their own congregation. Their distrust of a person is in direct proportion to the difference in Biblical interpretation.

5) A certainty that non-Christians are out to destroy them, and to destroy the concept of God.

Well, they're partly right in this. I used to think it was OK to simply allow theists to go on about their business. I used to think there was something noble in simply believing in God, and following whatever righteous path you might find.

Then, as Christians began attacking secularism here in the U.S., I realized they were not going to allow others to follow their own paths to righteousness. You could say the Intelligent Design movement was the proverbial straw. Once I saw the devious and manipulative way in which the ID proponents used disinformation, I realized they were truly evil.

So, now I am out to help bring Christians back into rationality, and away from the brink. So, in a way, I am out to destroy God.

I don't mean that I wish to convince them that God doesn't exist. That would be a bonus, but really, I still admire true personal faith. As you say, we all have our delusions, and faith in God is hardly the worst possible delusion, as long as it doesn't lead you to do evil things. The problem is, too many people don't keep it personal; they wish to spread it to everything and every one, whether other people desire it or not; and this leads to evil things.

DadaMungo wrote:

In many ways, one could consider your atheism as a religion. It seems to stir up the same emotions and defensive reactions in you that you so abhor in religionists. And, you use your views to guide your choices. As I think I mentioned earlier, the issue isn't so much about what you believe, but what you do with it. I admire your comments about living good lives and seeking to better our world - you are not alone in that.

I also get het up about Microsoft, and the way they've destroyed the computing industry. That doesn't make it a religion. It makes it an area in which I react irrationally. Atheism is, by definition, a lack of belief in God. That makes it a non-religion. Just because a person doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they can't get emotional about the subject.

So, you couldn't rationally consider atheism a religion in the least.

If what you believe leads you to do evil things, such as kill another person in the name of your faith, or work to have your school teach intelligent design in science class, then yes, what you believe is important. If your faith causes you to act in a way that is detrimental to another person, then yes, your belief does matter.

This is true for atheists, as well.

I realize that sounds as if I'm saying, "Behave like me, or not at all," but I'm not. I love variety in the world. I certainly believe your faith can affect you in a good way, too. But in the end, there is no rational evidence for either God, or the validity of the Bible (or whatever your Holy book might be).

Whatever we believe, I do know this: we're in this together.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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nigelTheBold wrote:Whatever

nigelTheBold wrote:
Whatever we believe, I do know this: we're in this together.

I was just about to make a long post in reply to DadaMungo, explaining in detail my opinion. I'm glad I read your post first, because it is pretty much exactly what I would have written. Fantastic post! Glad to have you here at RRS.

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Thanks

natural wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:
Whatever we believe, I do know this: we're in this together.

I was just about to make a long post in reply to DadaMungo, explaining in detail my opinion. I'm glad I read your post first, because it is pretty much exactly what I would have written. Fantastic post! Glad to have you here at RRS.

Thanks, Natural.

Not to turn this into a mutual admiration club or anything, but the same things has happened to me a couple of times reading your posts.

And I'm glad to be here.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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DadaMungo wrote:I've been

DadaMungo wrote:

I've been chewing on this thread quite a bit throughout the last day (so again, my thanks to you guys for the stimulation!) I'd like to ask if you could state categorically what it is you object to in theists. What is it that gets your goat about them? I mean, we all live with delusion to some degree or another, so why does theirs bother you? Is it simply the threat that you perceive they pose to your (and all humankind's) security and future?

The problems I have with theists is a somewhat biased view that I have had in churches I had attended in the past and my preacher father in law. Very few people can isolate the actions of a few bad apples and the majority that are decent people, and that includes myself.

I have no problems with a christian witnessing to me or telling me I am wrong. If an atheist is discriminated against in adopting a child, running for a political office or forced to sit through prayer at a public school however, I have to contest. I believe we are a nation where everyone is equal. If gays want to marry why should anyone say they can't because one group says it is immoral? Atheists, for the most part, believe in equal rights for everyone. Granted there are times theists are discriminated against too and I would be the first to stand up for their rights.

The other real problem I have is that many theists falsely state that atheists hate god. I don't believe in a god, so how can I hate what I do not believe in? Mostly it boils down to the minority of theists paint a bad picture of the rest. I myself try not to generalize, however emotion sometimes trumps reason. Oh and the end-timers just plain scare the shit outta me.

DadaMungo wrote:

One final word: I have stated a few times here that I find that your observations of religion (esp. Christianity) seem to radically depart (to the negative) from what I understand and believe Christianity to be. If these are based upon your actual experiences, then okay, but if they are not, then I would seriously like to help you get a more insightful view so that you positions would not be founded on unsound bias. By this, I am not trying to reclaim lost souls. I just think that, in the interests of true inspection and examination, you should be doing so without the bias that you seem to manifest. I have no problem if you do not care to do so, but I just wanted to make the offer.

Perception is reality. Are you suggesting that all of our posts bash theists?

I will not say that all atheists are tolerant, but I will also state that because one subscribes to a religion they are as well. Many if not most KKK members used to belong to the southern baptist church. Unfortunately, this does skew my opinion of that particuliar church. Do I hate the southern baptist church becasue of this? No, I do not because we can't truly know what is in someone else's heart. So I try to give benefit of the doubt unless I have reason not to. Religion tends to divide us into little boxes. There are important problems to solve and the presence of another dividing line hurts all of mankind.

DadaMungo wrote:

In many ways, one could consider your atheism as a religion. It seems to stir up the same emotions and defensive reactions in you that you so abhor in religionists. And, you use your views to guide your choices. As I think I mentioned earlier, the issue isn't so much about what you believe, but what you do with it. I admire your comments about living good lives and seeking to better our world - you are not alone in that.

Most of us don't have a problem with theists having a belief we think is irrational. In some ways our beliefs, or lack thereof, are irrational to a theist too. Does atheism have some similiarity to a religion? I can see why the theist could jump to that conclusion for a number of reasons. Foremost is the theist assertion that it is therefore most people jump on the soundbyte because it is easier than just thinking about what constitutes a religion and comparing the two.

If I may ask, how do you think most theists view atheists? This will probably answer many of your questions better than we can.

 

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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DadaMungo wrote:natural

DadaMungo wrote:

natural wrote:
Even if God exists, you can't know what the higher purpose is anyway, since you can't know the mind of God. The so-called 'higher purpose' is just another unknown.

But how do you know that? Isn't that a self-defeating argument? Only God (being, by definition, omniscient) could know that. Has He revealed it to you?

I think my brain just melted.

"How do you know that you can't know what the higher purpose is anyway?"

"One of His legs is both the same."

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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HisWillness wrote:I think my

HisWillness wrote:
I think my brain just melted.

"How do you know that you can't know what the higher purpose is anyway?"

"One of His legs is both the same."

"You're all different!"

"I'm not!"

Try not to be daunted by the task of asserting that Arnold Schwarzenegger is the best actor that ever lived, you have to ignore a lot less facts than you do to assert that the Earth is only 6,000 years old!


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   What are we trying to

   What are we trying to accomplish here ? WE are GOD , now what ? .... how about F U N ...... Why not worship F U N   Looking out the window of a mansion and seeing people needlessly suffer is not my idea of F U N .... 


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DadaMungo wrote:I've been

DadaMungo wrote:

I've been chewing on this thread quite a bit throughout the last day (so again, my thanks to you guys for the stimulation!) I'd like to ask if you could state categorically what it is you object to in theists. What is it that gets your goat about them? I mean, we all live with delusion to some degree or another, so why does theirs bother you? Is it simply the threat that you perceive they pose to your (and all humankind's) security and future?

Allow me to answer your question by posing a question.  From which view should we expect our decisions (social, whatever) to lead to relevant, applicable to our condition, policies; an inaccurate picture of reality or an accurate picture of reality? Its really as simple as that.

Theism, in general, removes responsibility for humanity from humanity. It promises a better existence and thereby lessens the importance of the one we have. It can be employed to justify any behavior, and as an unparalleled means of persuasion to do what otherwise might be unthinkable. And it seems to me to be a wholly unjustified fictive belief system. How could I not object to it?  

Quote:
Another question I'd like to throw in (just out of curiosity) is: if the significant majority of the human race seems to "need" delusion, how would that be explained in evolutionary terms? Could it be that we "need" the security blanket of delusion to help us sleep at night? Could it be that if the whole earth became atheist that we would find other delusions to hold to? Could it be impossible for humankind to live without the need for religion, in whatever form?

What could we gain by clinging to an inaccurate picture of reality that would not be better confronted by understanding that the picture is inaccurate, understanding what about it we need, and coming to a reality based conclusion about our needs and dealing with them from there? 

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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Bill Hicks

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

   What are we trying to accomplish here ? WE are GOD , now what ? .... how about F U N ...... Why not worship F U N   Looking out the window of a mansion and seeing people needlessly suffer is not my idea of F U N .... 

Have you ever listened to Bill Hicks? One of the funniest men to ever walk the earth.

This is very much like his philosophy.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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  Bill Hicks???  No I

  Bill Hicks???  No I haven't nigelTheBold  but I will now. Thanks ! Comedy is so "saving" .... ((( George Carlin is a true prophet. Jesus love's him ! and I bet Bill too ....  


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Bill Hicks

I'd suggest you start with "Relentless," one of his earlier works. It's probably his most accessible recording.

Basically, his entire point of doing comedy was that we realize there is a LIVING GOD, and we are all PART OF THAT LIVING GOD. That didn't enter enter his act until the very end, though he often references it obliquely.

"And I feel it's my duty to pass on information at all times, so that we can all learn, evolve, and get the fuck off this planet."

I myself do not believe there is a LIVING GOD. However, that doesn't mean I don't get his sentiment.

I definitely know we're all in this together, LIVING GOD or not.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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  Bill Hicks - Religion

  Bill Hicks - Religion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxsGyljd6B0&feature=related  

A Killer Idea - Bill Hicks, Relentless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=918nZG4aI5I

Jesus likes Bill !

 


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Sorry it's taken so long for

Sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to you.

DadaMungo wrote:
If I read you correctly, then your argument is based upon an incorrect notion of the relationship between this life and the next, as understood by most(?) Christians. If what you state actually held, then I would be in total agreement with you.

That's one way to put it.  It is after all based more at arguments I often have thrown my way by many christians as a response to them.

DadaMungo wrote:
My beliefs are such that the afterlife is very much "conditioned" according to what we make of this life. This gives to me a meaning and drive in this life that I don't see could come to the same degree from any other standpoint. I mean, I contend that simply coming to terms with the meaninglessness of life cannot inject the same sense of fulfillment of life as does a belief that every thought, word and act matters.

So in essence it's a bribe.  You simply do what you have been told to do so you can get more out of the next life?  It makes it sound to me like a sports game.  The person whose only goal is the trophy at the end will do anything they can within the rules (and break them if they can get away with it).  They will push themselves as hard as possible and have no qualms about hurting others in the process if it results in them acheiving said trophy.  Once the game is over, it's over.  They no longer care, they have what they came for.  Me, I prefer to be out there on the field for the game itself, enjoying it, helping my teammates, having fun, getting everything out of it that I can, and I certainly don't want to see harm come to the opposition.  When the whistle finally blows for me, the game still goes on for others.  My offspring, my teammates offspring, my oppositions offspring etc.  We need to leave them with somewhere that is still playable so that they can get as much out of the game as I did.

DadaMungo wrote:
Is there a magic number that determines how many people are needed to make a difference? This argument seems illogical to me. Mapping this with some other response to my original post, we arrive at a contradiction. It was stated that my hurting someone would make a difference to that someone. So the number of one already makes a difference. It doesn't take ten thousand people hurting ten thousand other people for it to be not a nice thing to do. Perhaps it would depend on the context. Would ten thousand people make a difference to the whole global population? Well, sometimes it only takes one!

Are you kidding me?  My entire point (which you seem to have missed completely) was you may not think that you individually can make a difference - but once you get enough people individually then it makes larger numbers and those numbers may be enough for that difference to be made.  Due to that, it is worth people having their say and doing their thing to make a difference.

DadaMungo wrote:
Again with the 'here is the purpose' rhetoric, when you (collective) disclaim others' purposes, simply because they are not founded in science, and especially when you (collective) say that evolution has no purpose! Let's strive for consistency (but I forgive you! )

Evolution is a "how", not a "why".  You may as well be asking for a purpose from gravity.  The purpose I gave has got nothing to do with evolution.

DadaMungo wrote:
Have you considered that evolution might actually be a tool to achieve some higher purpose? A tree being cut down cannot know how the carpenter will shape it to make a table. All it knows is the blade of the saw going back and forth. I present this only as a hypothesis.

Being an inanimate object that is nothing more than a tool for a being of higher sentience is a higher goal for a living being?  I kid, I do see the point you're making and if I put on my deist/theist coloured goggles I do agree.  In fact, it kind of backs up what I said before.  Evolution is not a why, it does not provide a purpose.  It is nothing more than a how.

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DadaMungo wrote:I've been

DadaMungo wrote:
I've been chewing on this thread quite a bit throughout the last day (so again, my thanks to you guys for the stimulation!) I'd like to ask if you could state categorically what it is you object to in theists. What is it that gets your goat about them? I mean, we all live with delusion to some degree or another, so why does theirs bother you? Is it simply the threat that you perceive they pose to your (and all humankind's) security and future?

Religion promotes intolerance and ignorance.  It was intolerant towards women until society and the morality that stems from society forced religion to change (though it still holds some grasps of this intolerance).  It was intolerant towards different coloured people until society and the morality that stems from society forced religion to change.  It was intolerant towards people who weren't born in to the right families or parts of society until society and the morality that stems from society forced religion to change.  As for ignorance, it's constantly holding up a barrier to science and technology.  Modern medicine, astronomy, science in general fight the ignorance and lies of religion every single day.  Even to this day you get people who are ignorant enough to think the world is flat, is less than 8000 years old, is the center of the universe, that demons cause sickness etc. 

DadaMungo wrote:
Another question I'd like to throw in (just out of curiosity) is: if the significant majority of the human race seems to "need" delusion, how would that be explained in evolutionary terms? Could it be that we "need" the security blanket of delusion to help us sleep at night? Could it be that if the whole earth became atheist that we would find other delusions to hold to? Could it be impossible for humankind to live without the need for religion, in whatever form?

Kelly has covered this in her topic "Humans do not need to comfort themselves with fairy-tales".  I don't agree.  Certain people do not need it, but there are others who do.  It's an individual thing mostly, but as long as there's people who do need it I don't think we can claim humans as a whole don't need it.  I do think that if the whole world became atheistic then new delusions to hold on to would be invented.  The only way we could possibly come out without religion is if as well as losing religion overnight we also lost our imaginations, and that's something I personally would not want.  It's a whole fear of the unknown thing, and as long as we have our imaginations we'll come up new concepts we don't understand.  This as well as the fact we cannot know everything - that security blanket you mentioned will be needed.

 

 

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