Twitter debate I had with Philadelphia Eagles DT Jeff Owens
*UPDATE 7-29-11* Jeff Owens was released from the Philadelphia Eagles today. I don't think he ever got playing time. Today he was waived/didn't pass physical. I sent him a tweet, but feel bad for him.
http://twitter.com/#!/rationalsquad/status/96794836602068992
I'm a huge Philadelphia Eagles fan which is why I follow many of the players on Twitter. Occassionally one of them will tweet something about God and I just can't keep my trap shut, I say something. Today Jeff Owens responded to my tweet and was willing to indulge me in a day long back and forth conversation (transcript below). I hope he got something out of it, maybe someday it'll lead him to question. Should he choose to, I would be glad to show him what I've learned over the years, what I've managed to become after shedding my Christian roots. Should he choose to I would be glad to show him just how powerful he is, how amazing his coaches and family have been for him, and how he managed to reach the NFL without any help from invisible powers in the sky.
Jeff Owens is currently a practice squad DT for the Philadelphia Eagles after being drafted in the 7th round of the NFL draft in 2010. He goes by jeffowens95 on twitter. My responses to Jeff came from @rationalsquad (I also use @BrianSapient).
Since twitter posts show up in reverse chronological order I've attempted to piece them together, put them in chrono order, and make the discussion a little easier to read. The following is what we said:
Jeff Owens: Good morning twitter fam, this is another day to give thanks for all the many blessing God has given us... #ThankYouJesus!!!!
Brian Sapient: There is no rational reason to believe in a god or thank it for blessings. Thank the people that raised you for doing it well.
Jeff Owens: There is a God, and he loves you
Brian Sapient: A nice sentiment, but we have no solid evidence a God or Jesus exists. The bible is full of flaws, have you read it?
Jeff Owens: I read it daily, so if there isn't any proof of a God who made the earth???
Brian Sapient: How do you justify God condoning and making rules about slavery in the bible? Video on Earth formation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x8-KMR0nx8
Jeff Owens: that was Gods will, everything happens for a reason
Brian Sapient: Can you come up with a good reason that God would condone and advise on how to keep slaves? Doesn't seem loving in the least.
Jeff Owens: have u ever read the bible???
Brian Sapient: Of course Jeff. It was because I read the bible that I realized the story isn't possible. All loving God that didn't love all? An all knowing God that doesn't know where Adam is when he gets to the Garden, or who told them he was naked. An all knowing God that didn't know the serpent he created would trick Adam and Eve, a God not loving enough to plan better. Those ideas that I just mentioned, we're just talking the first few pages. There are too many contradictions for it to be...
Jeff Owens: you should read a book call Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren...
Brian Sapient: I've read it, I even own a site that is responding to his "Purpose of Christmas" http://www.thepurposeofchristmas.net
Jeff Owens: I just started reading it, it will enlighten you on what God has call you to do in life, we live to serve God
Brian Sapient: Seriously Jeff you can't honestly say that allowing and condoning slavery was good or just or worthy of worship. Can you?
Jeff Owens: that was Gods will, everything happens for a reason
Jeff Owens: I'll worship Christ no matter what, like Job he loss his family his fortune and his health, but he worship God no matter what
Brian Sapient: Even if I could prove that Christ never existed and the God of the bible is impossible you would continue to worship?
Jeff Owens: That's one thing you can't prove, there is a God and I believe that you believe that too
Brian Sapient: Ok so you don't want to answer that question along with why God condoned slavery. I understand what's happening there.
Brian Sapient: Are you interested in books that challenge your beliefs at all? I would be glad to give you several.
Jeff Owens: no I'm not I love worshiping God
Brian Sapient: What if you're wrong Jeff? What if you're wasting the only life you get on a fantasy? Not worshiping God is nice as well man.
Jeff Owens: I have faith
Brian Sapient: Faith is useless man. You can have faith in smurfs or goblins too, that doesn't change the fact that you could be wrong.
Jeff Owens: Jesus will never leave you or forsake u
Brian Sapient: That's a sweet sentiment Jeff, but tell that to the people who will die of starvation or cancer today. They pray too you know.
Jeff Owens: everybody have a path
Brian Sapient: Dear people dying of cancer or starvation: Everyone has a path. Hope that makes you feel better. @jeffowens95
Jeff Owens: yes we all do... Retweet this, Christ died for our sins there is no greater love!!!
Brian Sapient: I don't believe God came down to Earth to sacrifice himself to himself so that we can escape his wrath. It makes no sense.
Brian Sapient: Here's a list of contradictions in the bible if any of this conversation has you curious. http://tinyurl.com/2t8ou
Jeff OWens: do you believe in UFOs???
Brian Sapient: We don't have scientific proof of aliens in UFOs yet, but we have more evidence for them than Jesus/God. You?
Jeff Owens: how can u believe in UFOs but not God????
Brian Sapient: You didn't understand me, I didn't say that. I said we have more EVIDENCE for UFOs than God. Neither are firmly proven.
Jeff Owens: Final Thoughts: there is a God and he love you, he sent his son to die for you, he created all things
Brian Sapient: My Final Thoughts: You and all other XIANS can't prove that God is real and therefore might as well worship aliens or smurfs.
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Nice. Straightforward and
Nice. Straightforward and direct. Love the closing thoughts about smurfs. I lol'd. Funny that there are actually modern religions/cults that worship aliens.
Nice work Sapient, plant the seeds of doubt. Even if Owens remains devout forever, you never know who's following his tweets and what kinds of conversations that interaction will have sparked. Loved how you gave links promptly and in direct response to the flow of the conversation. That gets curious people to start a journey of learning on their own, and it also counters the typical xian platitudes with a dose of reality, evidence and reason.
Kudos!
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I think it is...sad,
I think it is...sad, actually. I know I should know better, but when an intelligent, driven person happens to be a theist I have this image that they should have well thought out beliefs. At the least, a good response to the common criticisms of their religion.
When I see this it makes me realize how far we have to go. When pressed to defend his belief, this man had nothing to fall back on. No rational arguments, no deep thoughts, no claim of intellectual struggle to justify belief, just...robotic self justification without any self discovery.
This isn't even a complaint against religion, this is a complaint against a culture where people don't have any problem holding beliefs they don't understand or even care about enough to investigate. It is a commentary about intellectual sloth and rote recitation of stale dogma.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
God loves him so much he is
God loves him so much he is only on the practice squad. He loves football players so much the spend their time from pee wee league, through high school, and if they are lucky college, abusing their bodies only to not make it to the NFL, and the ones who do only stay in on average 3-5 years. God never wants to tell them about all the players that will never make it to the league.
Yesterday's Redskins Bears game should be obvious that there is no fictional super hero intervening in anything. 8 FRIGGEN TURN OVERS,(by both teams) not including 5 fumbles by the Skins( who recovered all but one). Man, a fucking Pop Warner team could have beaten both the Bears and Skins. If that game were a god debate both teams would be Ray Comfort.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote:God loves him
Well if the Saints losing to the BROWNS with a third string quarterback isn't proof of god I don't know what is.......Oh wait, God is supposed to be on the Saints side isn't he? Guess god isn't so omnipotent after all.
Anyway, GO JETS!
Lol, well at least he is consistent in holding only false beliefs.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
A gallon of milk for $1.49?
A gallon of milk for $1.49? Sorry, don't buy it. Unless it was smaller than a gallon. Wal Mart certainly is cheaper than most, but what you forget to tell people is that they pay crappy wages to their employees and buy slave labor material from China to provide you with that cheap milk, and yes, they are greedy bastards. Why dont you find out how much their CEOS make vs the store clerk.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian37 wrote:A gallon of
$1.99 at mine.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Brian37 wrote:A gallon of
No it was a full gallon. Granted, it was 1/2 off the regular price because it was close to expiring. Those greedy capitalists would rather take a small loss than to throw it away.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37
You don't get it. It is NOT what people want. it is just like everything else in life. MODERATION. We already have enough big business. What we don't have are wages keeping up with the cost of living. I am NOT fooled by the same old mantra that the corporate class cant afford more for their workers, it isn't about the workers, it is about protecting the profit margins. As long as they are stuck in their penis measuring contest and keep cutting costs in the easiest place it is to cut, the worse it will become for those who do the actual work.
I bet you these dicks could sell that milk at that half price at all times and STILL make a profit and STILL afford to pay their workers more. Market demands is an EXCUSE. The rich can afford it, they just don't want to do the right thing. I am tired of the bullshit. "Cant" and "don't want to" are two different things.
Keep it up, we can look like China and India if you like.
But do not expect me to feel sorry for someone making 500,000,000 a year. Boo and friggen hoo.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian, I've seen "Walmart,
Brian, I've seen "Walmart, the high cost of low prices." It got me pissed. For a little balance watch "Bullshit the Walmart Episode by Penn and Teller."
They argue that Walmart is a vital American company that supports an immense amount of people. They specifically attack the film "Walmart, the high cost of low prices."
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Isn't Owens their goalie or
Isn't Owens their goalie or something?
Jeff Owens was released
Jeff Owens was released from the Philadelphia Eagles today. I don't think he ever got playing time. Today he was waived/didn't pass physical. I sent him a tweet, but feel bad for him.
http://twitter.com/#!/rationalsquad/status/96794836602068992
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Support our activism efforts by making your Amazon purchases via this link.
Sapient wrote: Jeff Owens
I think it sucks when anyone loses there jobs, accept when they just suck at it. But economy or injury or age, it doesn't matter. I have every empathy for this guy. Hopefully he can come back or get a career in sports media or coaching.
This is one of those times you can put the debate aside and simply be a decent human and hope for the best for someone.
At least he got that far even if he never plays another game. There are only 1,900 jobs on the field in that league and millions from pee wee league age trying to get a spot. So he should at least be proud of himself for getting to do what most wont do.
In any case, like I said, I hope it gets better for him.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog