Heresy - an irrational, self refuting concept

todangst's picture

 I wrote some of this years many ago. I'm going to edit it a bit and post it here... with one addition: while heresy is a religious concept, atheists could fall prey to thinking in terms of heresy too.... so let's all be on the lookout for this type of thinking when it creeps up in our own thoughts.

HERESY

Definition:

"The act of asking one's pastor or priest a question he can't answer."

Ok, officially, "heresy" is an opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.

The concept of heresy ought to arouse any theist's critical thinking skills....in fact it should serve as an indicator of the falsity of a religion, as any system that was undeniably true would hardly need to fear and punish doubters. Undeniable truth would defend itself - denying it would lead to self contradiction.

In science, criticism of a new theory is eagerly sought after by theorists, for the failures to disprove the theory serve to validate its truth. For example, quantum theorists wanted the great Einstein to try and knock their theories down. Sure, Einstein's attempts to do so kept them up at night (Literally, Neils Bohr's wife would later relate stories of her spouse pacing the floor, muttering "Einstein, Einstein!" every time Einstein would offer up a counter response.) but Einstein's failure to knock down quantum theory (particularly the work of Niels Bohr) helped support quantum theory - if the brilliant Einstein could not disprove it, then this served to show the theory's strength. 

Of course, the scientists who postulated or even just supported the old, discarded theory may be upset, they are people after all. Some may even commit outright fraud rather than concede error. But "scientific heresy" serves science as a whole, it serves to discard false or inferior theories and it supports better theories.

Shouldn't a true religion equally desire such rigorous challenges?

 

A Further Example

Here's a way to make my point even more clear. Imagine you are a furniture salesman, about to sell a chair, and you are encountering a difficult customer who questions its craftsmanship. Your chair is one of the sturdiest chairs on the market, and can easily hold his weight. How do you confront your customer?

With anger?

With threats?

By ostracization?

By damning his soul?

No. You invite him to sit on the chair.

Now, imagine the chair is a repainted piece of rickety garbage. You have to prop it up against a wall to help it brace against even a mild wind. Yet you still must sell it. Now, you meet the same fellow, and need to unburden yourself of the chair. Do you let him sit on it?

NO.

You do all you can to pawn off the chair on him, without allowing him scrutinizing it. You might use the above mentioned techniques, if possible. And, if your own guilty conscience rises up during your sale... well, you'll have to use the same methods on yourself, right?

Those who doubt the law of gravity quickly gain an appreciation for the truth of it the second they defy it. "Newtonians" don't need to go around torturing doubters and enforcing acceptance - even their enemies can be compelled to recognize the law's verifiable and replicable reality. Those who refuse to appreciate the evidence defy gravity at their own peril. Burning at the stake would be superfluous - "Anti-Newtonians" would all perish given enough time. Just postion them near any cliff...

Another way to see the problem with heresy is to consider a crude style of bluffing in poker. Some oafs try to bluff you by suddenly placing a large wager into the pot, and then make strong eye contact with you - imparting the message: "How dare you enter that pot when I have this powerful hand? You better fold." The message is clear - it is a threat. But the truth is that anyone who really possessed a good hand would have no fear of your hand and would gladly accept your addition to the pot, after all, its going to be their money. If the player has the best hand, what does he have to fear?! A poker player with a winning hand welcomes challenge. He will win in the end. So he would never threaten you with the prospect of losing. A poker player who does so clearly tips off his actual hand as being weak, not strong*.

From these examples it should be clear that a system of beliefs that fears "heretics" and actively seeks to silence them by threats of violence or excommunication, reveals that they do not trust in, or that unconsciously doubt, the veracity of their own beliefs. Challenges frighten them, yet challenges should only frighten those with false creeds.

I think we ought to all take this to heart in our debates, whatever side we are on... if we find ourselves feeling that our opponents words are heretical.... then we're clearly going down the wrong path.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

 

* Unless they are clever enough to be using a 'reverse tell', but I digress...

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.

digitalbeachbum's picture

todangst

todangst wrote:

HERESY

Definition:

"The act of asking one's pastor or priest a question he can't answer."

Ok, officially, "heresy" is an opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.

The concept of heresy ought to arouse any theist's critical thinking skills....in fact it should serve as an indicator of the falsity of a religion, as any system that was undeniably true would hardly need to fear and punish doubters. Undeniable truth would defend itself - denying it would lead to self contradiction.

I don't think I've heard heresy used in a long time.

I agree with your view.

 

Brian37's picture

 It is never a good idea to

 It is never a good idea to protect ideas from scrutiny or blasphemy or even cussing. No that is not a call to end religion or demand cussing in every context. 

Without that ability to bitch it is very easy to get to a point of protecting egos. Ideas that progress humanity forward withstand the heat and do not need to be protected.

Human rights are a given, but ideas are not humans, ideas are positions people communicate and those ideas are not always right.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Vastet's picture

^ Oh the irony...

^ Oh the irony...

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Brian37's picture

Vastet wrote:^ Oh the

Vastet wrote:
^ Oh the irony...

What "irony". You have been cussing me out too, did I ever demand your arrest or stop you from saying what you want?

You once again do not understand what Dawkins means by god belief being a Delusion. You do not understand why Hitchens called religion poison.  You do not understand why Victor Stenger says our morality is not in holy books but in our evolution. If you would get your stupid stubborn head out of your fucking ass you would know what they and I are talking about. NONE OF it is advocating oppresive laws or violence to believers.

No one is calling for the forcable end of religion for mearly saying it is poison to use a kaliedoscope as a tellescope. It is no different than knowing guns are not toys and vocanos while dormant and look pretty sometimes are still volcanos.

You simply personally do not like me or my tactic of conversation. So what. Do your worst, call me any name you want, call me a piece of shit. I don't give one fuck.

Your stupid attidude is what allows religion to create oppressive laws and maintain them. You don't help minority Muslims murdered by other Muslims by pretending religion is not the cause. You don't help Christians beheaded in Iraq by Isis by pretending the elephent in the room religion itself is the cause. You don't help gays or atheists arrested in Saudi Arabia or Iran by pretending religion is hunky dory. You don't help women oppressed by prending religon should be given a pass. You dont help Jews or Palistinians by acting like any boo to religion is an act of tyranny.

Now this simply amounts to you getting pissy with me because I wont pretend every context needs to be a library setting. I don't give one fuck how you choose to conduct yourselves with theists or even what names you call me. It still amounts to you being  a brat because I didn't blingly  bow to you.

No "irony", just you being a childish brat.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Vastet's picture

Brian37 wrote:What

Brian37 wrote:
What "irony".

Of course, if Brian knew, it wouldn't be very ironic.

Brian37 wrote:
You have been cussing me out too,

Brian thinks insults have something to do with it. Poor Brian.

Brian37 wrote:
did I ever demand your arrest or stop you from saying what you want?

If Brian could actually accomplish this, he probably would do so. We've already seen him call for the elimination of theists (another irony). After all, what is censorship and imprisonment compared to mass genocide?

Brian37 wrote:
You once again do not understand what Dawkins means by god belief being a Delusion. You do not understand why Hitchens called religion poison.  You do not understand why Victor Stenger says our morality is not in holy books but in our evolution. If you would get your stupid stubborn head out of your fucking ass you would know what they and I are talking about. NONE OF it is advocating oppresive laws or violence to believers.

Brian makes a bunch of stuff up, par for the course.

Brian37 wrote:
No one is calling for the forcable end of religion for mearly saying it is poison to use a kaliedoscope as a tellescope. It is no different than knowing guns are not toys and vocanos while dormant and look pretty sometimes are still volcanos.

More lies sprinkled with strawmen.

Brian37 wrote:
You simply personally do not like me or my tactic of conversation. So what. Do your worst, call me any name you want, call me a piece of shit. I don't give one fuck.

Brian's martyr complex surfaces once more.

Brian37 wrote:
Your stupid attidude is what allows religion to create oppressive laws and maintain them.

This is your brain on theism. Look out kids! You too might become a hypocritical asshole who spends 99% of his time lying!

Brian37 wrote:
You don't help minority Muslims murdered by other Muslims by pretending religion is not the cause.

Brian doesn't understand politics or economics or societies. But this has already been adequately demonstrated, so it is now boring.

Brian37 wrote:
You don't help Christians beheaded in Iraq by Isis by pretending the elephent in the room religion itself is the cause. You don't help gays or atheists arrested in Saudi Arabia or Iran by pretending religion is hunky dory. You don't help women oppressed by prending religon should be given a pass. You dont help Jews or Palistinians by acting like any boo to religion is an act of tyranny.

Brian doesn't realise that the US government is directly responsible for ISIS, or ISIL, or IS, or whatever the fuck they call themselves. But everything is so much simpler if religion is the cause of all the ills in the world. In Brian's little mind, the deer that just got hit by a car somewhere in the Rockies died because of religion. The baby that was just stillborn? Religion. The hurricane season? Religion. Everything is religions fault, so sayeth the master of lies.

Brian37 wrote:
Now this simply amounts to you getting pissy with me because I wont pretend every context needs to be a library setting. I don't give one fuck how you choose to conduct yourselves with theists or even what names you call me. It still amounts to you being  a brat because I didn't blingly  bow to you.

No "irony", just you being a childish brat.

Hypocrisy, lies, strawmen, and delicious irony. Brought to you by the local tool.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Brian37's picture

 Show me where I said

 Show me where I said "eliminate theists" direct quote please. I have said I will not play verbally nice to bigots or those who use religious based oppresive laws or use violence. And in the heat of battle when some violent fuck is armed if he gets killed I certainly will not lose sleep over it. The Isis fucks who beheaded the Japanese reporters would fit that bill.

I defy you to show me where that would include the likes of Malala. The worst she would get from me is "that is not true" or you are full of crap. If we all got to murder someone merely because we get offended, I can imagine what is in your head when you think about me, even if you wouldn't litterally do it. Some humans worldwide don't have that self control, and many of them use religion to justify hurting others because they got their egos bruised.

I do agree with Hitchens in calling religion poison. Hardly a call to genocide. Just like it is stupid to light a smoke while you are pumping gas. It is poison to use a kaliedoscope and pretend it is a telescope. Bad ienough people do light their smokes while pumping gas, but like weeds, you can only contain them, taking your eye off of religion can lead to very bad things. Religion is poison because it allows humans to set up "in group out group", it ignores our common existence and allows far too many humans, to get to the political level to the point of being willing to kill over it.

No Irony, you simply don't like me personally.

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

 Yes I do understand

 Yes I do understand politics, religion and economics. Those are all acts of communication designed to convey a message to gain members in order to create groups. That pattern seeking is what all groups do. The problem is that humans think locally not globally, they defend what they are familiar with which sets up "in group vs out group".

Religion is the biggest distraction worldwide, it wont go away, but our species especially now cannot afford for it to continually keep its pedestal causing conflict and diverting resources that could be used for problem solving like famine and poverty and polition and climate change.  

We cannot afford for ANY religion to keep trying to take center stage and hold the world hostage. It needs to get put on the back burner. But as long as the climate of the worlds believers keep making that their top priority it will continue to be a problem. 

Now for the billionth time moron "Religion is poison" is not a call to force it out of existence anymore than one can remove Mt Fuji with a Bobcat. But you have to treat it like a volcano. Only an idiot would live next to a volcano and ignor it.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Vastet's picture

Brian37 wrote:Show me where

Brian37 wrote:
Show me where I said "eliminate theists" direct quote please.

Brian thinks I'm going to waste my time looking for the actual quote, when Brian constantly makes up things for people to say without providing the quote. In other words, this is more of Brian's hypocrisy.
I might even do so if Brian ever did the same, but he never does. I might concede the point, if Brian ever admitted his blatant lies, but he never does. What Brian will nevrr understand is that I've quoted him word for word, while all he can do is make shit up.

Brian37 wrote:
I have said I will not play verbally nice to bigots or those who use religious based oppresive laws or use violence.

Brian lies.

Brian37 wrote:
And in the heat of battle when some violent fuck is armed if he gets killed I certainly will not lose sleep over it. The Isis fucks who beheaded the Japanese reporters would fit that bill.

Brian ironically proves my point without even realising it.

Brian37 wrote:
I defy you to show me where that would include the likes of Malala.

And yet again Brian starts setting up a strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
The worst she would get from me is "that is not true" or you are full of crap. If we all got to murder someone merely because we get offended, I can imagine what is in your head when you think about me, even if you wouldn't litterally do it. Some humans worldwide don't have that self control, and many of them use religion to justify hurting others because they got their egos bruised.

Eliminating Brian could only benefit the species. Sadly my ethics are superior, so I cannot eliminate Brian. I can only do to him what he has done to everyone else.

Brian37 wrote:
I do agree with Hitchens in calling religion poison.

Yes Brian, we already know you fail at English. Repitition of stupidity does not increase the probability of your delusions being accepted.

Brian37 wrote:
Hardly a call to genocide.

Brian makes another strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
Just like it is stupid to light a smoke while you are pumping gas. It is poison to use a kaliedoscope and pretend it is a telescope.

Continuous failure to English.

Brian37 wrote:
Bad ienough people do light their smokes while pumping gas, but like weeds, you can only contain them,

LOL Brian thinks you can contain people from smoking at gas pumps. Apparently Brian doesn't even understand what happens when fire, gasoline, and oxygen react simultaneously. One can only hope he finds out first hand, for all our sakes.

Brian37 wrote:
taking your eye off of religion can lead to very bad things.

More strawmen.

Brian37 wrote:
Religion is poison

More lies.

Brian37 wrote:
because it allows humans to set up "in group out group"

Brian should take psychology. I say this facetiously, because Brian could never understand psychology.

Brian37 wrote:
it ignores our common existence and allows far too many humans, to get to the political level to the point of being willing to kill over it.

No Irony, you simply don't like me personally.

And we conclude, AGAIN, with lies, hypocrisy, self delusion, strawmen, and Brian's martyr complex.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Vastet's picture

Brian37 wrote:Yes I do

Brian37 wrote:
Yes I do understand politics, religion and economics.

More lies.

Brian37 wrote:
Those are all acts of communication designed to convey a message to gain members in order to create groups.

Proof of Brian's lies.

Brian37 wrote:
That pattern seeking is what all groups do. The problem is that humans think locally not globally, they defend what they are familiar with which sets up "in group vs out group".

More proof of Brian's lies.

Brian37 wrote:
Religion is the biggest distraction worldwide, it wont go away, but our species especially now cannot afford for it to continually keep its pedestal causing conflict and diverting resources that could be used for problem solving like famine and poverty and polition and climate change.  

Brian thinks that extreme lying will change reality. Brian is wrong.

Brian37 wrote:
We cannot afford for ANY religion to keep trying to take center stage and hold the world hostage. It needs to get put on the back burner. But as long as the climate of the worlds believers keep making that their top priority it will continue to be a problem. 

Brian's religion included.

Brian37 wrote:
Now for the billionth time moron "Religion is poison" is not a call to force it out of existence anymore than one can remove Mt Fuji with a Bobcat. But you have to treat it like a volcano. Only an idiot would live next to a volcano and ignor it.

Only an idiot would accept Brian's word.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

iwbiek's picture

Brian37 wrote:Those are all

Brian37 wrote:
Those are all acts of communication designed to convey a message to gain members in order to create groups.



this is exactly what the majority of religions in south, east, and southeast asia are not.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

Brian37's picture

iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Those are all acts of communication designed to convey a message to gain members in order to create groups.

this is exactly what the majority of religions in south, east, and southeast asia are not.

You are a fucking idiot.

Try doing ANYTHING in your life without communicating, try.

EVERYTHING humans do requires communication. ALL communication is a way of conveying an idea. The more you convince others that your ideas work the bigger the group becomes, or at a minimum, you get the group big enough as to maintain it.

You stupidly think seemingly placid  now means that group will stay that way forever.

Not even asia has been violence free. If the world suddenly became all Buddhist or all Taoist or all Jainist you would still have competing groups. BECAUSE HUMANS FUCKING COMPETE YOU DIPSHIT.

 

 

Asia's religions are no better than any other religion in th world. They are not the patent holders of human morality anymore than Christianity or Islam or Hinduism. They are still a placebo that sets up groups and social orders. But there was no religion around 4 billion years ago, and dinosaurs survived for quite a long time without praying to statues of fat guys. Cockroachs didn't need Jesus either.

You got stuck on pretty, that is what religous people do and that is the poison I am talking about. Getting stuck on pretty allows people to ignore the dark side of our species evolution.

Then just like Vasit you stupidly think because of my verbal bluntness somehow I am advocating the forcable end of religion.

NO YOU FUCKING MOR0N!

I see my species having proven it's capability to give up on old bullshit. You get stuck on pretty which is why superstitious people believe in "gnats" and think statue of fat guys have some real effect on their lives outside a placebo.

IT IS ALL SUPERSTITION, pretty buildings, pretty art, pretty words, do not make those things pattent holders of our species behavior. Our species behavior is in IS in us, not the religions humans invent.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

People are not bad because they hold a religion, the part you keep fucking missing is the IDEA of religion itself allows people to do stupid shit, and somehow you think Asia is better. NO there is only one species and the same range of human behaviors have always been in us.

Penn Gillete "Don't hate the faithful, hate faith itself, FUCK FAITH" from "God No".

Now unless you have read the God Delusion, or God Is Not Great, or The New Atheism, you have no goddamn fucking clue how much your good intent in reality has the opposite effect.

The Dali Lama is no different than the Pope, no different than an Imam or a Rabbi, they are leaders of comic book clubs. Sure those placebos give them safety in numbers, but those clubs do as much to divide humanity and whatever benefit they provide is negated by the fact that it sets up tribal behavior. BUDDHISM is no fucking different.

By accepting this flaw in human gap filling, which is why religions are invented, you are NOT calling for an end to them by force, but just like you know what causes hurricanes or snow, that evolutionary understanding can help you manage those differences better.

You don't give religion a pedestal outside the human right to hold one. The right to believe something does not mean the claim or the religion should be scrutiny or blasphemy free. For the same fucking reason you and I bitch each other out here.

Life is not bowl of ice cream so stop fucking acting like it is.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

 Name me one Asian country

 Name me one Asian country that does not have prisions. You cant anymore than a Christian majority country or Islamic country are prison free. Isreal has prisons too. So if any religion in the world were the key to peace, there would be no crime or war.

That means our crime and war are a result of our EVOLUTION, and our species is better served by understanding that instead of hiding behind old myths and comic book clubs. Just like our species no longer believes in Apollo or Thor.

Our good behavior as a species is because empathy and compassion produce cooperation, NOT A FUCKING COMIC BOOK.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

iwbiek's picture

i'm not talking about

i'm not talking about buddhism. buddhism is actually an exception because it was a proselytizing religion, at least at its inception. and nobody's talking about whether or not there is violence in certain religions. i'm talking about your bogus definition of religion, which you clearly pulled right out of your ass--much like your einstein quote--and how it doesn't fit half the religions in the world.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

iwbiek's picture

Brian37 wrote: Name me one

Brian37 wrote:

 Name me one Asian country that does not have prisions. You cant anymore than a Christian majority country or Islamic country are prison free. Isreal has prisons too. So if any religion in the world were the key to peace, there would be no crime or war.

That means our crime and war are a result of our EVOLUTION, and our species is better served by understanding that instead of hiding behind old myths and comic book clubs. Just like our species no longer believes in Apollo or Thor.

Our good behavior as a species is because empathy and compassion produce cooperation, NOT A FUCKING COMIC BOOK.




completely irrelevant to the point i was making, as usual. brian again proves he has no idea how to address a point directly.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

Brian37's picture

iwbiek wrote:i'm not talking

iwbiek wrote:
i'm not talking about buddhism. buddhism is actually an exception because it was a proselytizing religion, at least at its inception. and nobody's talking about whether or not there is violence in certain religions. i'm talking about your bogus definition of religion, which you clearly pulled right out of your ass--much like your einstein quote--and how it doesn't fit half the religions in the world.

Do you even know what the root meaning of the word "religion"is. ? It stems from the word ligature meaning "to tie" or "to bind".

Unlike what religion causes far too much, which is "shut up and don't scrutinize me", what are you doing with me here? You are doing with me what the secular wests allows as it should.

Religions are IDEAS, they are all acts of communications, the intent is to explain the world arround them. The pretty words in any of them do not constitute anything more than wishful thinking. You can find pretty motifs in Star Wars and Harry Potter too, but if those fans of those fictions started wars and litterally believed in them, would you call that sane?

Again, when anyone of any religion claims "you wouldn't understand it's complicated", that is stupidly getting stuck on the details when the reality is it is needlessly complex and still is nothing but an argument from ignorance in the form of gap filling.

Now stop stupidly thinking I am out to get anyone in any sense of force. My bluntness here is nothing more than seeing my fellow species doing stupid shit and responding "NO YOU IDIOT, THE YANKEES DIDN'T WIN THE SUPERBOWL".

The reason  god claims pop up and religon pops up is because of our SPECIES flawed perceptions. We have progressed as a speices preciesly because many countless humans bothered to challenge those perceptions.

If you want to coddle the insecurites of delusional humans and insecurities because some in our species are afriad of change, you can. I think better of my species. Just because it is a human right, does not mean clinging to that is good. 

NO ONE I consider sane should be out to deny human rights. SO please grow the fuck up. If our species never questioned social norms our speices never would have left the caves.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

 Name me one Asian country that does not have prisions. You cant anymore than a Christian majority country or Islamic country are prison free. Isreal has prisons too. So if any religion in the world were the key to peace, there would be no crime or war.

That means our crime and war are a result of our EVOLUTION, and our species is better served by understanding that instead of hiding behind old myths and comic book clubs. Just like our species no longer believes in Apollo or Thor.

Our good behavior as a species is because empathy and compassion produce cooperation, NOT A FUCKING COMIC BOOK.


completely irrelevant to the point i was making, as usual. brian again proves he has no idea how to address a point directly.

NO you know religion doesn't cure crap. You wont admit that it is nothing more than a gap filling placebo.

You "religion does good" 

Yea so? That also allows humans to hide behind that and fight over being patent holders of our species morality.

To summerize Christopher Hitchens "Name me one good thing said only a religious person could say that an atheist could not say. Name me one good deed only a religious person could do that an atheist could not do".

Saying religion does good is like finding corn in your shit. Sure corn is food, but look what you have to dig through to get to it. 

Religons in our species history allways start the same way. Someone, or some group of people, look around them, draw off  the prior an surrounding ideas and motifs, compete to create their new club. Religion merely survives as a placebo through marketing. It has no pragmatic value outside that and the danger is that that group case of the warm fuzzies gets to a political level to the point of willing to kill over it.

None of the blasphemy above is any sort of call to use force to end religion. It is nothing more than telling your fellow human "WAKE THE FUCK UP".

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Vastet's picture

Brian37 wrote:You are a

Brian37 wrote:
You are a fucking idiot.

What Brian doesn't understand is that when a complete fucking idiot calls someone a complete fucking idiot, it is actually a compliment. The complete fucking idiot is simply too stupid to comprehend intelligence, and equates it with a lack thereof.

Brian37 wrote:
Try doing ANYTHING in your life without communicating, try.

And again Brian breaks out the strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
EVERYTHING humans do requires communication. ALL communication is a way of conveying an idea. The more you convince others that your ideas work the bigger the group becomes, or at a minimum, you get the group big enough as to maintain it.

Blah blah blah Brian's strawman is boring.

Brian37 wrote:
You stupidly think seemingly placid  now means that group will stay that way forever.

More strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
Not even asia has been violence free. If the world suddenly became all Buddhist or all Taoist or all Jainist you would still have competing groups. BECAUSE HUMANS FUCKING COMPETE YOU DIPSHIT.

Still more strawman. It's pretty obvious who the real dipshit is.

Brian37 wrote:
Asia's religions are no better than any other religion in th world. They are not the patent holders of human morality anymore than Christianity or Islam or Hinduism. They are still a placebo that sets up groups and social orders. But there was no religion around 4 billion years ago, and dinosaurs survived for quite a long time without praying to statues of fat guys. Cockroachs didn't need Jesus either.

You got stuck on pretty, that is what religous people do and that is the poison I am talking about. Getting stuck on pretty allows people to ignore the dark side of our species evolution.

Lies, strawmen, and constant demonstrations of ignorance in everything. Typical Brian.

Brian37 wrote:
Then just like Vasit you stupidly think because of my verbal bluntness somehow I am advocating the forcable end of religion.

Brian forgets he LITERALLY called for the forcible end to religion. But that isn't surprising, Brian's brain is too broken to recall much of anything.

Brian37 wrote:
I see my species having proven it's capability to give up on old bullshit. You get stuck on pretty which is why superstitious people believe in "gnats" and think statue of fat guys have some real effect on their lives outside a placebo.

Sometimes Brian's stupidity reaches epic levels, at which point it becomes impossible to understand what he is saying and what context it could possibly have. When this happens it is best to just laugh at him.

Brian37 wrote:
IT IS ALL SUPERSTITION, pretty buildings, pretty art, pretty words, do not make those things pattent holders of our species behavior. Our species behavior is in IS in us, not the religions humans invent.

Brian fails to comprehend that anything created by man is a reflection of man. Religion is no different.

Brian drops a link to start on yet another strawman. Or was it to continue one? It can be hard to tell sometimes. His verbal diarrhoea spews in all directions. It's a wonder noone has yet cut off his hands and removed his vocal chords. Maybe one day.

Brian37 wrote:
People are not bad because they hold a religion, the part you keep fucking missing is the IDEA of religion itself allows people to do stupid shit, and somehow you think Asia is better. NO there is only one species and the same range of human behaviors have always been in us.

Penn Gillete "Don't hate the faithful, hate faith itself, FUCK FAITH" from "God No".

Penn would die of a heart attack if he knew Brian was using his name on his crusade to eliminate theists.

Brian37 wrote:
Now unless you have read the God Delusion, or God Is Not Great, or The New Atheism, you have no goddamn fucking clue how much your good intent in reality has the opposite effect.

Brian worships these books, never realising that truly intelligent people can quite easily ignore them as irrelevant to anything. They make good paper weights though!

Brian37 wrote:
The Dali Lama is no different than the Pope, no different than an Imam or a Rabbi, they are leaders of comic book clubs. Sure those placebos give them safety in numbers, but those clubs do as much to divide humanity and whatever benefit they provide is negated by the fact that it sets up tribal behavior. BUDDHISM is no fucking different.

Brian fails to understand that compared to him, every religion ever invented is a step forward.

Brian37 wrote:
You don't give religion a pedestal outside the human right to hold one. The right to believe something does not mean the claim or the religion should be scrutiny or blasphemy free. For the same fucking reason you and I bitch each other out here.

Life is not bowl of ice cream so stop fucking acting like it is.

More lies and strawmen.

Brian37 wrote:
Name me one Asian country that does not have prisions. You cant anymore than a Christian majority country or Islamic country are prison free. Isreal has prisons too. So if any religion in the world were the key to peace, there would be no crime or war.

More lies and strawmen.

Brian37 wrote:
Do you even know what the root meaning of the word "religion"is. ? It stems from the word ligature meaning "to tie" or "to bind".

It is interesting that Brian can say this without comprehending it.

Brian37 wrote:
Unlike what religion causes far too much, which is "shut up and don't scrutinize me", what are you doing with me here? You are doing with me what the secular wests allows as it should.

More lies, strawmen, and a dash of hypocrisy.

Brian37 wrote:
Religions are IDEAS, they are all acts of communications, the intent is to explain the world arround them. The pretty words in any of them do not constitute anything more than wishful thinking. You can find pretty motifs in Star Wars and Harry Potter too, but if those fans of those fictions started wars and litterally believed in them, would you call that sane?

They would be more sane than Brian.

Brian37 wrote:
Again, when anyone of any religion claims "you wouldn't understand it's complicated", that is stupidly getting stuck on the details when the reality is it is needlessly complex and still is nothing but an argument from ignorance in the form of gap filling.

Much like everything Brian ever said.

Brian37 wrote:
Now stop stupidly thinking I am out to get anyone in any sense of force.

More lies.

Brian37 wrote:
My bluntness here is nothing more than seeing my fellow species doing stupid shit and responding "NO YOU IDIOT, THE YANKEES DIDN'T WIN THE SUPERBOWL".

Fortunately I'm here to do this to Brian.

Brian37 wrote:
The reason  god claims pop up and religon pops up is because of our SPECIES flawed perceptions. We have progressed as a speices preciesly because many countless humans bothered to challenge those perceptions.

Brian makes up a bunch of bs, again.

Brian37 wrote:
If you want to coddle the insecurites of delusional humans and insecurities because some in our species are afriad of change, you can. I think better of my species. Just because it is a human right, does not mean clinging to that is good. 

NO ONE I consider sane should be out to deny human rights. SO please grow the fuck up. If our species never questioned social norms our speices never would have left the caves.

More lies and strawmen.

Brian37 wrote:
NO you know religion doesn't cure crap. You wont admit that it is nothing more than a gap filling placebo.

More lies and strawmen.

Brian37 wrote:
You "religion does good" 

Yea so? That also allows humans to hide behind that and fight over being patent holders of our species morality.

More lies and strawmen.

Brian37 wrote:
To summerize Christopher Hitchens "Name me one good thing said only a religious person could say that an atheist could not say. Name me one good deed only a religious person could do that an atheist could not do".

A strawman, by implication.

Brian37 wrote:
Saying religion does good is like finding corn in your shit. Sure corn is food, but look what you have to dig through to get to it. 

One wonders if Brian actually does this. It might explain a few things...

Brian37 wrote:
Religons in our species history allways start the same way.

Brian doesn't know how any religion started, but he pretends to. It's part of his need to be a cult leader.

Brian37 wrote:
Someone, or some group of people, look around them, draw off  the prior an surrounding ideas and motifs, compete to create their new club. Religion merely survives as a placebo through marketing. It has no pragmatic value outside that and the danger is that that group case of the warm fuzzies gets to a political level to the point of willing to kill over it.

None of the blasphemy above is any sort of call to use force to end religion. It is nothing more than telling your fellow human "WAKE THE FUCK UP".

And Brian concludes with more lies, strawmen, and hypocrisy; with a touch of absolute stupidity.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Brian37's picture

 Now stop acting like

 Now stop acting like children. In life, individuals start out liking eacch other, over time their view change, and can end up hating each other. Happens all the time. Now maybe Iwbeik you ignor or have forgotten your post I turned into a poem giving you credit for it, which is still in that poetry thread. If our falling out were based on me thinking you are "evil" like Stalin because you support Marx, why whould I leave that up? 

Page 3 of my poetry thread "Drunken Zen Banter" by Iwbiek, edited by Brian37 post #164

 

I still think that is a amusing poem. And despite our falling out it still belongs there.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31771?page=3

And to Vastet, look at that same page above and check out post #194 Where you complement me. And post #200. Our falling out still may not change putting you in that forward, I may still do that, maybe without naming you personally, but some motif describing how humans can change over time. Don't know.

Now we hate each other now, unlike then. But friendships end just like humans get divorces. That does not make you evil. It just means we no longer like each other. Jefferson and Adams went through the same thing politically, they started out friends, but had a falling out, and were very bitter to each other until they patched things up at the end of their lives.

Despite what you might think, I have NOT changed one bit. I have been just as blasphemous even prior to Rational Responders existing. And I don't think you are a different person because we don't get along anymore. It merely means we have changed our views on the other.

Now I really don't give a fuck if you go to your grave never liking me again. But that does not change the time we did like each other. I am quite sure you have family and friends and co workers you love and support you. And so do I.

My bluntness is not an act of bitterness or revenge to anyone here. It is simply a refusal to sugar coat my position.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

 Vastet. SERIOUSLY stop

 Vastet.

 

SERIOUSLY stop using dead philosophy. I fucking hate that.

All that fucking crap is nothing more than wordgames.

Life is NOT complicated, people create complicated bullshit to justify creating groups. No "strawman". 

If humans didn't evolve to communicate we would not form groups. There  is nothing fucking hard at all by saing everything we do is a result of evolution. The fucking part you keep stupidly ignoring is that is not claiming humans should act like emotionless robots. It is simply a recognition that our perceptions evolutionary wise are notoriously flawed. So when humans make claims about politics, religion, or economics, claiming that those things work, is not an argument. NO SHIT, but that never takes into account "FOR WHO". Not seeing outside your own bubble allows you to think "it works" and the downside is that causes that group to desire to replecate that pattern to the point of projecting it on others. THAT is the poison religion causes. It allows humans to hide behind it and in tern affects both politics and economics. Recognizing that allows the shift in priorities and can allow more of a climate of understanding our species common condition in our imperfet existence. You do not problem solve by saying "pretty is pretty so give it a pedestal". Lots of pretty looking plants are natural and pretty, but very poisonous. Some snakes have very beautiful colors and are quite natural, but also very posionous.

The concept of human invented religon is a double edge sward. It has pretty claims in it, but the poison is that allows people far to often to ignore that those same flawed perceptions can allow them to hide behind the pretty motifs and justify cruelty to others.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37's picture

 While you guys can point

 While you guys can point out where I slaughter discribing science, there is one thing I am NOT wrong about.

One of the core musts in science when you postulate anything is to not overcomplicate it or add anything more that nessary. KISS keep it simple stupid. If you work and progress and have to add more, you still only add what you need. As long as the buildup in science the more complecated it might get, as long as that adding does not add superflous garbage, the more likely your outcome is going to procuce better data.

Religoin as an IDEA adds wishful thinking gap filling superflous garbage regardless of the common empathy stories they all share.

So if my choices as to what constitutes a more likely anwer are.

 

1. Kaladiescopes work and are not mere placebos.

Or.

2. Humans make shit up beause they like it.

 

Now you damned well know, there is only ONE universal way to settle disputes when it comes to competing claims. Religion only works as a placebo. but that placbo has a very poisonous dark side to it. By recognizing it, again, while you cant completely rid the world of religon, accepting the dark side of it, allows the civil west to keep a leash on that dark side.

What you don't like is my simplifying reality. TOO FUCKING BAD.

Religion existing is not an excuse to cling to it. If it were then Galelieo should have been put to death.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Vastet's picture

Brian37 wrote:Now stop

Brian37 wrote:
Now stop acting like children.

Brian should take his own advice, since he's the only one acting like a child.

Brian37 wrote:
In life, individuals start out liking eacch other, over time their view change, and can end up hating each other. Happens all the time. Now maybe Iwbeik you ignor or have forgotten your post I turned into a poem giving you credit for it, which is still in that poetry thread. If our falling out were based on me thinking you are "evil" like Stalin because you support Marx, why whould I leave that up? 

Brian doesn't comprehend that his actions over the last 7 years have made any reconciliation impossible. He also suggests I support Marx, even though I've stated I never even read Marx. How can I support a position I'm not familiar with? I guess Brian thinks that because he does it all the time, everyone else does too. But Brian is wrong, as usual.

Brian37 wrote:
And to Vastet, look at that same page above and check out post #194 Where you complement me. And post #200. Our falling out still may not change putting you in that forward, I may still do that, maybe without naming you personally, but some motif describing how humans can change over time. Don't know.

Brian doesn't realise that even back then I didn't like him much. I simply tolerated him more because he had yet to branch out from his dogged assaults on Beyond Saving. But that all changed when he started attacking everyone, myself included, with lies and strawen and hypocrisy and stupidity. Apparently Beyond was too much for him, so he figured he should see if he could do better against everyone. Well, that didn't work out so well.

Brian37 wrote:
Now we hate each other now, unlike then.

Brian is oblivious. I don't hate. I do have contempt, but that is not hate.

Brian37 wrote:
But friendships end just like humans get divorces.

Brian and I were never friends. I don't make friends with idiots.

Brian37 wrote:
That does not make you evil.

Perhaps Brian doesn't realise there is no such thing as evil.

Brian37 wrote:
Despite what you might think, I have NOT changed one bit.

Despite what Brian thinks, he has changed considerably. Granted, he was always an idiot. But there was a time when he actually had meaningful contributions to the site. Now all he does is make shit up and make all atheists look bad.

Brian37 wrote:
SERIOUSLY stop using dead philosophy. I fucking hate that.

This is one of those times to just sit back and laugh.

Brian37 wrote:
Life is NOT complicated, people create complicated bullshit to justify creating groups. No "strawman". 

Another strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
If humans didn't evolve to communicate we would not form groups. There  is nothing fucking hard at all by saing everything we do is a result of evolution.

Brian goes off on an irrelevant rant.

Brian37 wrote:
The fucking part you keep stupidly ignoring is that is not claiming humans should act like emotionless robots. It is simply a recognition that our perceptions evolutionary wise are notoriously flawed.

More strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
So when humans make claims about politics, religion, or economics, claiming that those things work, is not an argument. NO SHIT, but that never takes into account "FOR WHO".

I'm not quite sure what Brian is thinking here, but it doesn't really matter. Probably safe to call it a strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
Not seeing outside your own bubble allows you to think "it works" and the downside is that causes that group to desire to replecate that pattern to the point of projecting it on others.

Brian says this while living in a bubble. The irony.

Brian37 wrote:
THAT is the poison religion causes.

Brian is infinitely more poisonous than any religion.

Brian37 wrote:
It allows humans to hide behind it and in tern affects both politics and economics. Recognizing that allows the shift in priorities and can allow more of a climate of understanding our species common condition in our imperfet existence. You do not problem solve by saying "pretty is pretty so give it a pedestal". Lots of pretty looking plants are natural and pretty, but very poisonous. Some snakes have very beautiful colors and are quite natural, but also very posionous.

The concept of human invented religon is a double edge sward. It has pretty claims in it, but the poison is that allows people far to often to ignore that those same flawed perceptions can allow them to hide behind the pretty motifs and justify cruelty to others.

Strawmen, lies, and hypocrisy.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Brian37's picture

 Nope dumbass.You are the

 Nope dumbass.

You are the fucking hypocrite, you'd be the moron who would take apart the entire car engine as a defalt start position. Just like men magically popping out of dirt is supurflous and explains nothing. It is extra garbage humans like believing because  it makes them feel good.

It does not take a fucking rocket scientist to say "WE ARE NOT DIFFERENT" or "WE ARE THE SAME SPECIES"

Name me one human now or ever that is not made up of adinine, guanine, thymine and cytosine. Now name me any ancient comic book in human history that displays that modern knowledge?

Religons are gap filling placbos that you cannot get rid of completely, but you are the moron that wants to pretend that flawed gap filling is not poisonious.

 

This isn't complecated.

Your choices are.

1. A god exists

Or

2. Humans make them up.

"It makes humans feel good" NO SHIT, that sense of self importance and feeling good leads to things like the Dark Ages and 9/11. I am only trying to get you to pull you fucking head out of your ass. 

"Cant we all just get along"

YES and YES WE SHOULD, political correctness and walking on eggshells is NOT the path to civility.

But sugarcoating reality and pretending there is no poison in religion is absurd and dangerous. You want to live next to that pretty dormant volcano and fool yourself into thinking it should be ignored, go ahead. I refuse to on a planet of religious people who run governments and own weapons and are willing to take me out with them over a stupid fight over a fictional being they have no evidence for.

Religion IS POISON and if you would stop having a fucking childish kneejerk reaction to that fact, you'd understand Dawkins and Hitchens and Stenger. 

There is NOTHING complicated about life. There are humans who conoct ideas that overcomplicate the simple fact we are the same species. 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Vastet's picture

Brian37 wrote: Nope

Brian37 wrote:

 Nope dumbass.

Brian can't accept reality, so like any good theist, he resorts to name calling.

Brian37 wrote:

You are the fucking hypocrite, you'd be the moron who would take apart the entire car engine as a defalt start position.

Lies and hypocrisy. A little strawman for flavour.

Brian37 wrote:
Just like men magically popping out of dirt is supurflous and explains nothing. It is extra garbage humans like believing because  it makes them feel good.

Strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
It does not take a fucking rocket scientist to say "WE ARE NOT DIFFERENT" or "WE ARE THE SAME SPECIES"

Strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
Name me one human now or ever that is not made up of adinine, guanine, thymine and cytosine. Now name me any ancient comic book in human history that displays that modern knowledge?

Strawman.

Brian37 wrote:
Religons are gap filling placbos that you cannot get rid of completely, but you are the moron that wants to pretend that flawed gap filling is not poisonious.

Brian's gap filling is infinitely more poisonous than any and every religion combined. Even the ones that haven't been invented yet.

 

Brian37 wrote:
This isn't complecated.

Brian is right, it isn't complicated. Yet it is still beyond his capacity to comprehend.

Brian37 wrote:
Your choices are.

Oh I see another strawman coming. I bet there's a false dichotomy as well.

Brian37 wrote:
1. A god exists

Or

2. Humans make them up.

Looks like I was right!

Brian37 wrote:
"It makes humans feel good"

Brian again demonstrates his skill at making up quotes. 

Brian37 wrote:
NO SHIT, that sense of self importance and feeling good leads to things like the Dark Ages and 9/11.

And Brian.

Brian37 wrote:
 I am only trying to get you to pull you fucking head out of your ass. 

Brian can't pull anyones head out of an ass when his own head is permanently fused to his own.

Brian37 wrote:
"Cant we all just get along"

YES and YES WE SHOULD, political correctness and walking on eggshells is NOT the path to civility.

Actually we can't all just get along. People like Brian are the reason why.

I'm being unfair. The real reason is entropy. But Brian certainly doesn't help matters.

Brian37 wrote:
But sugarcoating reality and pretending there is no poison in religion is absurd and dangerous.

Brian doesn't realise that labelling religion as poisonous automatically makes the labeller poisonous.

Brian37 wrote:
 You want to live next to that pretty dormant volcano and fool yourself into thinking it should be ignored, go ahead.

Brian thinks that just because people oppose his religion they must support other religions. He doesn't realise that most of us discard all of them.

Brian37 wrote:
 I refuse to on a planet of religious people who run governments and own weapons and are willing to take me out with them over a stupid fight over a fictional being they have no evidence for.

Brian again alludes to his desire to wipe out all theists.

Brian37 wrote:
Religion IS POISON

Brian thinks that if you repeat something enough times, it will come true. Typical theist tactic.

Brian37 wrote:
 and if you would stop having a fucking childish kneejerk reaction to that fact, you'd understand Dawkins and Hitchens and Stenger. 

Brian thinks I don't understand these people, when in fact I do. I simply think they are all idiots. Because they are.

Brian37 wrote:
There is NOTHING complicated about life.

Brian wishes life was simple, but the fact that we cannot yet even define life proves he has a lot of catching up to do.

Brian37 wrote:
There are humans who conoct ideas that overcomplicate the simple fact we are the same species. 

Like Brian.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Brian37's picture

 Nope dipshit. Being

 Nope dipshit. Being imperfict does not make me wrong about everything.

When you boil our groups down to the core it is nothing more than our groups survival kicking in.

It does not take a genious to say "we are the same species".

What overcomplicates life in terms of religion, and politics and economic models is the the dangerous bubble thinking logic of "works for me", which is not taking into acount while it does work, "for who", and that is the part most humans miss.

Religion is the poisonous distraction that gets undue top billing that allows us to ignore  all those divisions. 

Now fuckwad, that that is no different than what a driver's ed teacher will tell you, "Assume the other guy is going to fuck up, and treat even your own car as a weapon". You keep your eyes on the road, even though you cant get rid of that road. You keep your eyes on the other cars even though you cant prevent them from driving. You have rules for that road, you obey the speed limit and keep your distence.

Religion does not promote that. It doesn't have quality controls. It pretends to be a patent holder on all highways and cars. And because of that lack of understanding based on gap filling flawed perceptions, it causes people to have crashes. There is everything common about or species, there is nothing common about religion, other than most people don't like to be introspective about it and go with their emotions.

Cand dumb down that reality any further for you.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Beyond Saving's picture

Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

 Vastet.

 

SERIOUSLY stop using dead philosophy. I fucking hate that.

Unless of course you are using imaginary dead philosophy like fake quotes from Hypatia, Marie Antoinette or Einstein. In that case, Brian loves it. 

 

Quote:

All that fucking crap is nothing more than wordgames.

And now we can add philosophy to the long list of things Brian doesn't understand. 

 

Quote:

Life is NOT complicated, people create complicated bullshit to justify creating groups. No "strawman". 

Brian has life all figured out-LOL. Tell us Guru Brian, exactly what is the secret of life?

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Brian37's picture

 Now again, call me a

 Now again, call me a hypocrite by saying "Religious people don't get everything wrong either".

Nope they don't. Newton believed, got physics right, but also postulated Alachemy. Still doesn't make invisible super heros real. Arabs invented Algabra, doesn't make Allah real. The Romans built aquafers and stadiums, didn't make Apollo real.

I've heard the agument countless times even outside this website. Our species pattern seeking existed long before any written religion. We were making tools long before any polytheistic or monotheistic religion. Our ability to be curious again, is in our evolution, not the false placebo humans falsely attach their success to. No different the stupid superstion of thinking you need that lucky bat to hit a homerun when other players don't have that superstition.

 

We've progressed beyond gap filling, we have much better tools than religion to meaure the nature of reality. There is no Allah theory of thermodynamics. No Jesus theory of gravity. No Hindu theory of evolution. 

We do have real science that explains why humans have false perceptions. It is why we know that ink blot is not a real butterfly. It is why we know the shapes some see in clouds is retrofiting after the fact. It is why we know that certain mental illnesses and brain injuries can cause halucinations.

Dawkins in "The God Delusion" explains why religion exists in the same way a "moth mistaking the light bulb for the moonlight".

Yes religion exists. No you cannot get rid of it. But the poison is not understanding it is merely our own wishful thinking, our own false perceptions. You understand in nautral terms why humans create religions, it allows you to manage conflicts and minimize the harm they can cause. 

In the entire Cosmos series with Neil, in just about every episode, he showed pleanty of examples worldwide in in human history where humans gap filled only to later find out that flawed perception was wrong.  Drawing shapes in the stars was worldwide even with no connection between groups. Fear of comits also. 

And the other common things powers did back then regardless, was that when the subordinates started questioning that made the powers uncofmortable and more often than not that power would get scared and retard the progress of humanity.

That is the poison religion causes. Humans get used to a pattern and when someone else questions that social norm, fear of change kicks in and conflict happens. THAT is the poison religion causes. The cure to that isn't to use force, the cure to that poison is to offer humanity better ways of measuring reality, and to be unafraid of being wrong and be willing to give up on old claims. 

Science flies us to the moon, religion flies you into buildings(not my quote, but I do agree with it). And the only way to minimize that harm is to challenge religion and not give it a pedestal. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Beyond Saving's picture

Brian37 wrote:NO you know

Brian37 wrote:

NO you know religion doesn't cure crap. You wont admit that it is nothing more than a gap filling placebo.

You "religion does good" 

Yea so? That also allows humans to hide behind that and fight over being patent holders of our species morality.

To summerize Christopher Hitchens "Name me one good thing said only a religious person could say that an atheist could not say. Name me one good deed only a religious person could do that an atheist could not do".

Saying religion does good is like finding corn in your shit. Sure corn is food, but look what you have to dig through to get to it. 

Religons in our species history allways start the same way. Someone, or some group of people, look around them, draw off  the prior an surrounding ideas and motifs, compete to create their new club. Religion merely survives as a placebo through marketing. It has no pragmatic value outside that and the danger is that that group case of the warm fuzzies gets to a political level to the point of willing to kill over it.

None of the blasphemy above is any sort of call to use force to end religion. It is nothing more than telling your fellow human "WAKE THE FUCK UP".

 

 

Nice try dumbfuck.

No one is claiming religion should be involved in every aspect of somones life. Only Richard Dawkins ass kissers like you are that paranoid to think that.

Religions will happen no matter what kind of revolution happens, they've happend throughout our species history. Some have gone from open religions to closed religion. Others have gone from closed religions to open religions. But the one thing all of those shifts have in common were that the powers got abusive to the point those below them, even if they couldn't do it suddenly, created a climate that time eventually gave those shifts an opportunity to topple that power.

Nothing changes my position.

Groups form because ideas get expressed, all aspects of society regarding ideas require communication to spread. All aspects of society require income to support and spread those ideas. You childishly did this because I neither agree with your religious view or those of anyone who agrees with you. Niehter of you consider a third option.

I support the idea of mixed religions and free speech concepts. Right now though the atheists with the money are monpolizing our system. Reps are not the cause of it oustide being too compromizing and our voter apathy on top of that. Now when I cant even point to a billionaire who would agree with me and not you, you have no case.

Saying things happen, and that those things are unavoidable, does not mean "do nothing" or "works for me" means works for everyone.

WE in America means WE, not you, not atheists. WE. You are doing nothing with your religious views as an argument I have not seen from economics. You live in a bubble, your drug is your party. It isn't religion vs atheism. It is a matter of ballance and right now if you stupidly think our faith gap isn't hurting us you are an idiot. David Green a billionaire (and 3 times richer than Nick) would call you an idiot.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Vastet's picture

Brian37 wrote:Nope dipshit.

Brian37 wrote:
Nope dipshit. Being imperfict does not make me wrong about everything.

More strawman. The fact Brian is wrong about everything is why Brian is wrong about everything. Perfection is irrelevant.

Brian37 wrote:
When you boil our groups down to the core it is nothing more than our groups survival kicking in.

Brian doesn't understand that this is only true in very desperate times. Otherwise people form groups for companionship and mutual benefit.

Brian37 wrote:
It does not take a genious to say "we are the same species".

Brian says something both obvious and irrelevant.

Brian37 wrote:
What overcomplicates life in terms of religion, and politics and economic models is the the dangerous bubble thinking logic of "works for me", which is not taking into acount while it does work, "for who", and that is the part most humans miss.

Again Brian demonstrates ignorance of everything. The fact is that these things work for the vast majority, which is why they still exist. Even though the average person isn't spectacularly intelligent, they are generally smart enough to know what works. Those who are as dumb as Brian, and don't know what works, tend to get themselves eliminated from the gene pool sooner or later.

Brian37 wrote:
Religion is the poisonous distraction that gets undue top billing that allows us to ignore  all those divisions. 

Brian is the poison trying to destroy atheism from the inside. Fortunately he is too stupid to.

Brian37 wrote:
Now fuckwad, that that is no different than what a driver's ed teacher will tell you, "Assume the other guy is going to fuck up, and treat even your own car as a weapon".

More fictitious quotes. No drivers ed instructor would suggest you view your car as a weapon.

Brian37 wrote:
You keep your eyes on the road, even though you cant get rid of that road. You keep your eyes on the other cars even though you cant prevent them from driving. You have rules for that road, you obey the speed limit and keep your distence.

This is quite laughable.

Brian37 wrote:
Religion does not promote that. It doesn't have quality controls. It pretends to be a patent holder on all highways and cars. And because of that lack of understanding based on gap filling flawed perceptions, it causes people to have crashes. There is everything common about or species, there is nothing common about religion, other than most people don't like to be introspective about it and go with their emotions.

Lies.

Brian37 wrote:
Cand dumb down that reality any further for you.

It is probably true that Brian could not get any dumber, but it is better to be safe then sorry, so I strongly recommend against testing the hypothesis.

Brian37 wrote:
Now again, call me a hypocrite by saying "Religious people don't get everything wrong either".

Brian doesn't know what hypocrisy is.

Brian37 wrote:
Nope they don't. Newton believed, got physics right, but also postulated Alachemy. Still doesn't make invisible super heros real. Arabs invented Algabra, doesn't make Allah real. The Romans built aquafers and stadiums, didn't make Apollo real.

Brian doesn't understand that those kinds of discoveries and accomplshments were often made possible by religious organisations. The fact that their gods were made up doesn't change the end result.

Brian37 wrote:
I've heard the agument countless times even outside this website.

Brian hears voices.

Brian37 wrote:
Our species pattern seeking existed long before any written religion. We were making tools long before any polytheistic or monotheistic religion. Our ability to be curious again, is in our evolution, not the false placebo humans falsely attach their success to. No different the stupid superstion of thinking you need that lucky bat to hit a homerun when other players don't have that superstition.

Brian is very good at making things up, just like most theists.

Brian37 wrote:
We've progressed beyond gap filling, we have much better tools than religion to meaure the nature of reality. There is no Allah theory of thermodynamics. No Jesus theory of gravity. No Hindu theory of evolution. 

All lies. The average educated muslim would accept thermodynamics as true. The average christian accepts gravity. I don't know enough about hindu's to assume they accept evolution, but I DO know that Brian doesn't know enough about hindu's to say either way.

Brian37 wrote:
We do have real science that explains why humans have false perceptions. It is why we know that ink blot is not a real butterfly. It is why we know the shapes some see in clouds is retrofiting after the fact. It is why we know that certain mental illnesses and brain injuries can cause halucinations.

This is Brian being absurd.

Brian37 wrote:
Dawkins in "The God Delusion" explains why religion exists in the same way a "moth mistaking the light bulb for the moonlight".

So sayeth lord Dawkins, it MUST be true. Amen.

Brian37 wrote:
Yes religion exists. No you cannot get rid of it. But the poison is not understanding it is merely our own wishful thinking, our own false perceptions. You understand in nautral terms why humans create religions, it allows you to manage conflicts and minimize the harm they can cause. 

Brian continues making shit up.

Brian37 wrote:
In the entire Cosmos series with Neil, in just about every episode, he showed pleanty of examples worldwide in in human history where humans gap filled only to later find out that flawed perception was wrong.  Drawing shapes in the stars was worldwide even with no connection between groups. Fear of comits also. 

Brian doesn't realise that's how science works. Technically, religion was the mother of science. It is true that the hypothesis religious organisations made were largely proven false, but the vast majority of all hypothesis ever postulated were proven false, so that doesn't condemn religion.

Brian37 wrote:
And the other common things powers did back then regardless, was that when the subordinates started questioning that made the powers uncofmortable and more often than not that power would get scared and retard the progress of humanity.

If Brian knew anything at all about psychology, he would realise this is a flaw in mankind. Religion is hardly a prerequisite.

Brian37 wrote:
That is the poison religion causes.

And that is why Brian is the true poison.

Brian37 wrote:
Humans get used to a pattern and when someone else questions that social norm, fear of change kicks in and conflict happens. THAT is the poison religion causes.

Yet again Brian accuses religion of something that religion isn't necessary for. Which is why Brian is the true poison.

Brian37 wrote:
The cure to that isn't to use force, the cure to that poison is to offer humanity better ways of measuring reality, and to be unafraid of being wrong and be willing to give up on old claims. 

Brian thinks that a psychological flaw in mankind can be cured. Maybe it can. But it won't happen any time soon. And blaming religion for it certainly won't make it go away.

Brian37 wrote:
Science flies us to the moon, religion flies you into buildings(not my quote, but I do agree with it). And the only way to minimize that harm is to challenge religion and not give it a pedestal.

Funny how India's space programme proves Brians quote wrong.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

iwbiek's picture

Brian37 wrote:Do you even

Brian37 wrote:

Do you even know what the root meaning of the word "religion"is. ? It stems from the word ligature meaning "to tie" or "to bind".




yes, i'm very aware of that POSSIBLE etymology. i also know it isn't the only POSSIBLE etymology, nor even the most likely one. the fact of the matter is, we DON'T KNOW FOR SURE where the word comes from.


do you ever do your own research beyond the highly selective corpus of "facts" a clique of new atheist writers have spoonfed you?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

iwbiek's picture

Brian37 wrote: You wont

Brian37 wrote:
You wont admit that it is nothing more than a gap filling placebo.



brian lies yet again, as he knows damn good and well that i have "admitted" on several ovvasions that religion is a placebo (i've used that exact word, in fact), and i've also asked him what's inherently wrong with placebos. i've received only silence in return.


if religion is the "placebo," brian, what is the actual cure for our existential dread? learning biology? doesn't seem to have worked so far.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson

iwbiek's picture

Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

 Vastet.

 

SERIOUSLY stop using dead philosophy. I fucking hate that.

All that fucking crap is nothing more than wordgames.

Life is NOT complicated, people create complicated bullshit to justify creating groups. No "strawman". 




wow, this sounds remarkably like many christians i've debated. "yes, life is black and white! stop using big words! you're just splitting hairs and trying to confuse me!"


brian doesn't understand philosophy, is incapable of understanding philosophy, therefore it's "dead" and "wordgames."


i imagine life ISN'T terribly complicated for an unemployed 40-something with no dependents.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson