The universe as simulation

inspectormustard
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The universe as simulation

I've been doing a bit of research into time and its relation to quantum information processing, and found something that is at once disturbing and liberating.

 

It seems we are likely living within a simulated version of reality, and the proof of this is relatively simple. Imagine we are the  sole proprietors of time, living in our multiverse (or universe, depending on your chosen interpretation of quantum mechanics - it really doesn't matter since the result comes out the same). I hope this isn't hard to do, since it certainly seems that we are living in the only system. Now, imagine millions and millions of years in the future when we have reached the point where we have mastered all the cosmic forces in the universe and have immense computing power at our disposal. Within the confines of our own universe, we would have the ability to simulate thousands of other universes at various points in time.

 

Now, these distant versions of us in the future have millions of simulated versions of us at various points in history. What are the chances, do you suppose, of us living in one of those highly advanced simulations? In fact, the chances are slim to none that we are the original version. What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. Our universe is the same as the original, and we are free to create our own simulations within the simulation.

 

Furthermore, simulation is an improper term. Since we are probably only the future imagining of our former selves, there is no true reality save for the reality we know. We will one day go on to create other imaginings of ourselves, and other simulations with radically different properties. That is our gift to ourselves, one might say. We are anything but trapped, no matter whether we are the original or the copy, since we have all the possibilities available to ourselves if there is an original us. In this respect, we will one day be able to escape our universe by diving into the simulations of our own creation. Going deeper into recursively simulated versions, we would be gods in the machine. However, once inside you can never escape to a "higher" simulation.

 

Heh, put that in your pipe and smoke it. 


kriz
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I'm smoking it, and it has

I'm smoking it, and it has a very interesting flavor!

 While good to think about, and while I admit its possible...there are a few realities that might refute it.  For example...there might be a limit to the physics of creating such a simulation...a barrier science will never be able to take us across.  Second, humans may not survive millions of years to get this step...after all, we have the weapons here now to destroy our entire species, and have managed to keep them under relative control for only 60 years.  Its a LOOONG time from 60 years to millions without blowing ourselves up.

 

Here's some more pipe-weed to think about:  according to quantum physics (or as I understand it as a layman) there is the very real possibility of their being an infinite number of alternate universes.  So you exist as a person in all of these universes in slightly different ways.  Now, if you don't believe in the soul, you can think of the mind as some sort of consciousness that a certain brain makeup creates.  So say a bullet hits you in the chest, and two (actually more) universes are created where you survive the bullet wound and another where its a hair to the left and you die.  Would your consciousness automatically continue on the track left open to it?  Can you always survive any dangerous encounter because even though you will die in some universes, your perspective will always be the one where you are alive?

 

I admit its a bunch of empty speculation, but I find it interesting to think about. 


Otishpote
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There is a complication.

There is a complication. Creating a simulation requires a greater quantity of the host universe's "stuff" (matter and energy, maybe more) than could ever possibly be built into the simulation. That is, if the portion of the host universe used to perform the simulation is capable of storing at most a certain number of bits (or even qubits) of information, the resulting simulated universe would only be able to store a fraction of that. Nested simulations would become smaller and smaller and more and more limited, until simulating another deeper level is too costly in terms of using up the higher level's "stuff" to even be worthwhile. Creating simulations is only feasible in big universes like ours, where lots and lots of free material is available and isn't needed for other more valuable uses.

Philosophically, it may be possible for a topmost universe to be infinite in size and information content. But it seems to me that each simulated universe could only have a finite quantity of content. (I'd be interested in hearing any arguments to the contrary.) That in turn limits how many levels of nested simulations it can sustain. In summary this implies that vast majority of all stuff in existence exists solely in topmost universes. This is not to claim that the majority of living creatures exist in topmost universes. There could well be more of them living in simulations.

 


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This reminds me of a sci-fi

This reminds me of a sci-fi book i have read a while back.


Yiab
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Quote: The most accurate

Quote:
The most accurate map is the ground itself

I don't remember who said it, but there it is.

The most efficient and accurate way to simulate a universe is to create a universe. Ignoring all questions of "can simulated reality be considered real" there is still the very reasonable possibility that non-simulated universes are constructed by these advanced civilizations and kept in relative isolation for observation and study. To claim that a simulated universe is more probable than a real one, you would have to know the frequencies with which artificial universes are virtual or physical.

I think this should be restated as "the universe is likely artificial" rather than "the universe is likely simulated". 


ollj
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The whole concept is just

The whole concept is just an allegory, not to be taken literal, an apeal to imagination and not to logic. 

There is just no way to sense if you are just a brain in a jar, similar to "The Matrix".

And because it can not be sensed it just does not matter, it is beyond logic. 

Actually your brain constructs an image of its environment and is able to simulate it in another part of it. That image and its simulations can NEVER contain the whole reality of the universe and just an image of it based on experiences.

Platos cave allegory is the oldest philosopical writing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave


inspectormustard
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'There is just no way to

'There is just no way to sense if you are just a brain in a jar, similar to "The Matrix".'

 

I think that's one of the things that makes this such an interesting idea. The cost of building an artificial universe is much smaller if you consider that the only parts you have to simulate are those which are observed at the time. Furthermore, the capacity simulate is further expounded when you think of each simulation being at least partially heuristic in nature. That is, you can sacrifice time in exchange for memory. Since those inside the simulation's concept of time is based on that of the simulation, a particularly challenging series of observations which would upset the simulation's processing would go unnoticed.


inspectormustard
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Otishpote wrote: There is a

Otishpote wrote:
There is a complication. Creating a simulation requires a greater quantity of the host universe's "stuff" (matter and energy, maybe more) than could ever possibly be built into the simulation. That is, if the portion of the host universe used to perform the simulation is capable of storing at most a certain number of bits (or even qubits) of information, the resulting simulated universe would only be able to store a fraction of that. Nested simulations would become smaller and smaller and more and more limited, until simulating another deeper level is too costly in terms of using up the higher level's "stuff" to even be worthwhile. Creating simulations is only feasible in big universes like ours, where lots and lots of free material is available and isn't needed for other more valuable uses.

Philosophically, it may be possible for a topmost universe to be infinite in size and information content. But it seems to me that each simulated universe could only have a finite quantity of content. (I'd be interested in hearing any arguments to the contrary.) That in turn limits how many levels of nested simulations it can sustain. In summary this implies that vast majority of all stuff in existence exists solely in topmost universes. This is not to claim that the majority of living creatures exist in topmost universes. There could well be more of them living in simulations.

 

I'm not so sure. For example, one doesn't need to simulate everything at once. Rather, you could use some kind of abstraction window where you only simulate those parts which are being observed at the time. Parts of the simulation could be heuristic in nature, and as long as an overall perception of time is maintained for all the intelligent agents the simulation would be complete - that is, those on the inside don't see anything wrong with the way their world works.


Otishpote
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That is why I phrased my

That is why I phrased my statement in terms of bits of information. If certain kinds of shortcuts or data compression are used, one can gain the appearance of having more stuff in the simulation than it otherwise could have. But that extra stuff is not in turn usable for creating deeper simulations.


inspectormustard
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Otishpote wrote:

Otishpote wrote:
That is why I phrased my statement in terms of bits of information. If certain kinds of shortcuts or data compression are used, one can gain the appearance of having more stuff in the simulation than it otherwise could have. But that extra stuff is not in turn usable for creating deeper simulations.

Surely not, but you can also sacrifice space (memory) for time (number of processes per result). So as more resources are used, time runs slower for "deeper" simulations. Of course, all the simulations are unaware of the slow down of time because the experience of the inhabitants depends on the sequance of observations.

I think my main point is: all things being equal in the, er, universe, multiverse, whatever your favorite explanation of quantum physics is, the vast majority of things are simulated. There's just so much space to do it, and why not grow your own universe when technology allows? If you can't meet other races in space, grow your own and visit them in vitro!

 And yes, I know, simulation is the wrong word. If I say artificial universe it sounds like something you'd make in a physics lab and never get to see.