is there a way to scale how much religion has hindered science

Evolved Morality
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is there a way to scale how much religion has hindered science

I really didnt know where to post this Query but i always believed Religion has been the biggest  hinderence to scientific advancement and a wide array of fields   i was curious if there is a compilation of differnt events where religion has stood in the way of a technological or medical science breakthrough   (ie)

StemCell Research and such  i am learning as i go and would like to see if someone has compiled such a list and if not see if someone would be interested to do it if possible i am still new

but i and anyone who has a reasonable thought can see that he reluctant persuit of Stem Cell Research is being impeded by religious ideologies which i find it a real shame so hold back a study that could very well save hundreds of lives if not more

i am starting to post more untill i get better at  getting my point across i hope all well bare with me


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Post Script

i would gladly take any productive  critisism i am hopeing to learn more and more and become more involved so help is always apreciated

 

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Why? You are the one buying

Why? You are the one buying into an ideology. You clearly have not even looked into the issue yourself. It is precisely an ideology to claim that religion is the enemy of science, an ideology which can be traced back directly to the Enlightenment. If you are truly a free thinker then why are you so constrained by a centuries-old reinterpretation of history formed on ideologies? Have you used your reason to arrive at the conclusion that religion is inimical to science, or have you bought into hackneyed rhetoric about Galileo, burnings at the stake, etc.?


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If religious activists

If religious activists hadn't so ardently opposed the use of eggs in stem cell research, do you think that there would have been as much research into non-embryonic sources of stem cells?

This is not to say that religion never hinders scientific discovery.  I am simply pointing out that the question is more complicated than you seem to be making it appear.


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First, someone get their

First, someone get their trigger finger ready for a "theist" badge on TPin.

Second... I've got an amazing book on this issue.

Here...



I'm guessing based on research without religion we'd currently have an average lifespan of 125, we'd have flying cars, would not be reliant on oil, but more importantly than the advancements of science... we'd be abundantly closer to world peace.

 

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I think this sums it

I think this sums it up.

 


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I didn't realize the labels

I didn't realize the labels came from without.

Nevertheless, I'd like to know how you measure scientific "advancement" on your little chart there.

Also, the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans were all  egregious theists. Now religion means medieval western Christianity, or what?


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  Fish wrote: If

 

Fish wrote:

If religious activists hadn't so ardently opposed the use of eggs in stem cell research, do you think that there would have been as much research into non-embryonic sources of stem cells?

I guess all the believers must have been busy discovering the cures for all the droughts and plaugues back when Copernicus was publishing his findings that we were not the center of the universe.  


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Religion tends to act as

Religion tends to act as prophylactic to scientific inquiry by its nature, because religions tend to make specific empirical propositions, propositions which can later be properly investigated by a proper empirical methodology, ie a scientific one, which usually proves such empirical propositions as made by religions to be, well, wrong. However, since religion is so firmly culturally entrenched, this tends not be accepted because religion is treated as authoritatively divine, and so scientific inquiry based necessarily on knowledge which stands contrary to religious empirical propositions is hindered. It will be exceedingly difficult, for example, to train the next generation of biologists who don’t know about evolution, since evolution is to biology what the periodic table is to chemistry. The acceptance that a proper methodology has overturned religious empirical propositions can have one of three consequences societally:

The recognition that the religious proposition hence its accompanying theology, is false

 

Or

 

The rejection of the proper methodological result in favor of the religious proposition because it is so firmly culturally entrenched

 

Or

 

The invention of a vague and meaningless ad hoc like “Religious empirical proposition X is just a story, but the religious metaphysical propositions are still true” or “Since this is not literally true, it should be interpreted in an overly vague, metaphorical way”.

 

Stating the second is generally recognized as “fundamentalism”, while the latter is “religious liberalism”.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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shelleymtjoy wrote: I

shelleymtjoy wrote:

I guess all the believers must have been busy discovering the cures for all the droughts and plaugues back when Copernicus was publishing his findings that we were not the center of the universe.

Yes, exactly.  Astrology gave way to Astronomy, Alchemy gave way to Chemistry and so forth.   People's initial beliefs caused investigation which helped lead them to making actual discoveries.


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TPin wrote: I didn't

TPin wrote:

I didn't realize the labels came from without.

TPin, why don't you post an intro yourself then.  Here's the link


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Fish wrote:

Fish wrote:

People's initial beliefs caused investigation which helped lead them to making actual discoveries.

Are you kidding? Am I reading this wrong? Explain to me how people that have beliefs on how somethings works are motivated by that belief to invesitgate? I don't crack open my cell phone to see what's in there... of course my belief on how that works is based on verifiable evidence.


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Ask the Muslim if religion

Ask the Muslim if religion have hinder science.

Baghdad should be the center of the scientific world today, look at it now. Saudi Arabia should of been the first on the moon, Egypt should lead the medical world.

But Islam collapsed after the golden age of Islamic science when science became the evil work of the Devil.

As Steven Weinberg pointed it out. Islam is now open to new technologies but not to pure sciences since it doesn't fit their Coranic view of the world.

As long as they will have this attitude towards pure sciences they will always have to rely on us to know how to do things.

You can't even think about making one single transistor without quantum mechanics and GPS will not work if you don't take in to account general relativity.

So it is maybe less obvious in our Western world what kind of harm religion as done to science, but in the Islamic world it is very obvious.

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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thanks for the replies

im gonna get that book  in a week or so when i have the extra cash

flow  thanks brian  and aiia for the chart and everyone else  that posted i am looking into  it with more detail now 

outta curiosity i learn lol  

 

thanks again for all the replys

 

great moriarty

 

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Get the book "Remembering

Get the book "Remembering Hypatia"

Hypatia was the librarian at the Great Library, and was slaughtered for having the audacity to teach.

Hypatia was murdered by a Christian mob around 400 AD.

Personally, I'd say Christians owe us at minimum 1600 years. The entire time we call the Dark Ages were willfully brought on by Christianity. We could have been on the moon over a thousand years ago, thanks, Jesus!

 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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kk i will look for that

thanks for the recommendations i have lots of reading to do lol

 


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aiia wrote: I think this

aiia wrote:

I think this sums it up.

Huh? What are the christian dark ages? What happened at that time when the scientific progress was not only hindered, but it plummeted? What technological advancements were lost? I suppose I could Google search it, but I can't really read complicated text in english. I just end up not understanding 70% of the issue.

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The graph is meant to be

The graph is meant to be farcical


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The graph may be farcical,

The graph may be farcical, but is somewhat accurate.

Also, Athiest 


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If anything, the graph

If anything, the graph under represents religion's effect.

Think about it, thinkers around the time of the destruction of the Great Library were ALREADY working with ideas that included a round earth, an non-omnicentric earth, essential Newtonian physics and the idea of microsopic life.

How long did it take us to rediscover these things we take for granted? Who knows what else that library held, and who knows what we really lost - it is indescribable. The FEW surviving records we do have hint at the wonderous, and ideas that took centuries upon centuries to be rediscovered and fleshed out.

If you take the power of knowledge as and exponential entity - in that small seeds yield amazing results, the graph is conservative at best scientifically speaking.

Historically speaking it's an even greater tradgedy.

To put it into perspective, we essentially lost the collective knowledge of mankind when we lost that library, and we still haven't recovered and never fully will.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Larty wrote:aiia

Larty wrote:
aiia wrote:

I think this sums it up.

Huh? What are the christian dark ages? What happened at that time when the scientific progress was not only hindered, but it plummeted?

The most important library containing the most advanced science in the world was burned to the ground.   Much of the data was stored only at the library.  In some cases where there were extra copies of the information the scientists who had the data were later murdered in the name of Christianity. 

 

Quote:
What technological advancements were lost?

We'll never fully know.

 

As Yellow5 said, read the book "Remembering Hypatia."

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I am thoroghly confused. Is

I am thoroghly confused. Is this the only area that religion has hindered science? Is the only instance of this when the Great Library at Alexandria was destroyed? Because if that is the case, then this seems like a highly ideological claim regarding how religion has set back science. From my very sparse research(Wikipedia), historians do not know who or why the Great Library at Alexandria was destroyed. The claim that it was only motivated by and perpetrated for religious means is merely one interpretation.


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In6Days wrote: I am

In6Days wrote:
I am thoroghly confused. Is this the only area that religion has hindered science? Is the only instance of this when the Great Library at Alexandria was destroyed? Because if that is the case, then this seems like a highly ideological claim regarding how religion has set back science. From my very sparse research(Wikipedia), historians do not know who or why the Great Library at Alexandria was destroyed.

Yes, I remember now. I have heard of the library of Alexandria that was burned to the ground, but I have never heard that it was caused by a religious motivation. 

This reminds me of something that happened to me last year. I wrote in a school history test about the cause of the cold war, giving the most widely accepted "east vs west" -explanation. I received critique from the teacher that history cannot be viewed from just one point. There are many interpretations to historic events, and one shouldn't think of one interpretation as the "correct one". 

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


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I would like to post

I would like to post several sources that I used after further investigation of the matter of the Great Library at Alexandria.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/malexanderlibrary.html

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm 

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Library.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

I was unable to locate any sites that specifically blamed the Christians.  All of these sites state that the Library was destroyed by one of four or five possibilities.  I would like to know where you researched this topic, so that I may further my understanding of this issue.


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if im not misstaken your own wiki sourse

Decree of Theophilus in 391

In 391, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan temples, and the Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria complied with this request[14].

Socrates Scholasticus provides the following account of the destruction of the temples in Alexandria in the fifth book of his Historia Ecclesiastica, written around 440:

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In6Days
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Evolved Morality

Evolved Morality wrote:

Decree of Theophilus in 391

In 391, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan temples, and the Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria complied with this request[14].

Socrates Scholasticus provides the following account of the destruction of the temples in Alexandria in the fifth book of his Historia Ecclesiastica, written around 440:

Let's fill in the rest of this now declared authority:

Quote:

At the solicitation of Theophilus, Bishop of Alexandria, the Emperor issued an order at this time for the demolition of the heathen temples in that city; commanding also that it should be put in execution under the direction of Theophilus. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt. And to begin with, he caused the Mithreum to be cleaned out, and exhibited to public view the tokens of its bloody mysteries. Then he destroyed the Serapeum, and the bloody rites of the Mithreum he publicly caricatured; the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, and he had the phalli of Priapus carried through the midst of the forum. Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples.

The Serapeum once housed part of the Library, but it is not known how many, if any, books were contained in it at the time of destruction. Notably, the passage by Socrates Scholasticus, unlike that of Ammianus Marcellinus, makes no clear reference to a library or library contents being destroyed, only to religious objects being destroyed. The pagan author Eunapius of Sardis witnessed the demolition, and though he detested Christians, and was a scholar, his account of the Serapeum's destruction makes no mention of any library. Paulus Orosius admitted in the sixth book of his History against the pagans: "Today there exist in temples book chests which we ourselves have seen, and, when these temples were plundered, these, we are told, were emptied by our own men in our time, which, indeed, is a true statement." But Orosius is not here discussing the Serapeum, nor is it clear who "our own men" are (the phrase may mean no more than "men of our time," since we know from contemporary sources that pagans also occasionally plundered temples).

As for the Museum, Mostafa El-Abbadi writes in Life and Fate of the ancient Library of Alexandria (Paris 1992):

The Mouseion, being at the same time a 'shrine of the Muses', enjoyed a degree of sanctity as long as other pagan temples remained unmolested. Synesius of Cyrene, who studied under Hypatia at the end of the fourth century, saw the Mouseion and described the images of the philosophers in it. We have no later reference to its existence in the fifth century. As Theon, the distinguished mathematician and father of Hypatia, herself a renowned scholar, was the last recorded scholar-member (c. 380), it is likely that the Mouseion did not long survive the promulgation of Theodosius' decree in 391 to destroy all pagan temples in the City.

John Julius Norwich's "Byzantium: The Early Centuries" places the destruction of the library's collection during the anti-Arian riots in Alexandria that transpired after the imperial decree of 391 (p314).

And before this there are two other records of destruction of the Library

Quote:

Caesar's conquest 48 BC

Plutarch's Lives, written at the end of the first or beginning of the second century, describes a battle in which Caesar was forced to burn his own ships, which in turn set fire to the docks and then the Library, destroying it.[12] This would have occurred in 48 BC, during the fighting between Caesar and Ptolemy XIII; Ammianus Marcellinus may be an independent witness to this fact (see below). But 25 years later, Strabo saw the Library and worked in it; however, Plutarch also explains this. During Marcus Antonius' rule of the eastern part of the Empire (40-30 BC), he plundered the second largest library in the world (that at Pergamon) and presented the collection as a gift to Cleopatra as a replacement for the loss of the original Museum library.

[edit] Attack of Aurelian, 3rd century

The Library seems to have been maintained and continued in existence until its contents were largely lost during the taking of the city by the Emperor Aurelian (270–275), who was suppressing a revolt by Queen Zenobia of Palmyra.[13] The smaller library located at the Serapeum survived, but part of its contents may have been taken to Constantinople to adorn the new capital in the course of the 4th century. However, Ammianus Marcellinus, writing around 378 AD seems to speak of the library in the Serapeum temple as a thing of the past, and he states that many of the Serapeum library's volumes were burnt when Caesar sacked Alexandria. As he says in Book 22.16.12-13:

"Besides this there are many lofty temples, and especially one to Serapis, which, although no words can adequately describe it, we may yet say, from its splendid halls supported by pillars, and its beautiful statues and other embellishments, is so superbly decorated, that next to the Capitol, of which the ever-venerable Rome boasts, the whole world has nothing worthier of admiration. In it were libraries of inestimable value; and the concurrent testimony of ancient records affirm that 70,000 volumes, which had been collected by the anxious care of the Ptolemies, were burnt in the Alexandrian war when the city was sacked in the time of Caesar the Dictator."

While Ammianus Marcellinus may be simply reiterating Plutarch's tradition about Caesar's destruction of the library, it is possible that his statement reflects his own empirical knowledge that the Serapeum library collection had either been seriously depleted or was no longer in existence in his own day.

 

There are many theories about what was the final destruction of the temple. The destruction of the temple, in my opinion was a combination of many factors, not simply the Christians. The conclusion reached in this article is that many centruies and a multitude of events and simple neglect resulted in the destruction of the Library. http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/malexanderlibrary.html

I would like to see a historically respectable source that points to Christians as the only cause of the destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria.


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TPin wrote: It is precisely

TPin wrote:
It is precisely an ideology to claim that religion is the enemy of science, an ideology which can be traced back directly to the Enlightenment.

Pffft. Religion is virtually synonymous with dogma, which is most certainly the enemy of science. Take the dogma out of religion, and what are you left with? Spirituality and philosophy. I can't see much room for what we term 'religion' without the whole 'take my word for it' angle.

I'm surprised the difficulties faced by DaVinci in his medical research haven't been mentioned... pretty sure that wouldn't constitute 'buying into hackneyed rhetoric'.

I have a single example that proves the opening post's assertion that religion significantly hinders the practise of science, and is apt to utterly cripple it, given the chance. As to the question of degree, you be the judge.

In the third century BC, Archimedes invented a form of calculus. But hang on, you say, Newton and Leibniz came up with it independently in the seventeenth century...

They wouldn't have had to, if it wasn't for religion. Such is the importance of calculus, that it's said that if Newton, DaVinci and other exemplars of the Renaissance had grown up knowing of Archimedes' Method, today we'd be on Mars, and have computers as smart as people.

Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_palimpsest

BTW, can someone tell me why the site can't send an account validation email to my hotmail address?


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Kimmo

Kimmo

1. check junk mail

2. try clicking "register" for new account

3. If first two fail, try a different email address

4. If all else fails, keep posting under Kimmo

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Larty wrote:

Larty wrote:
aiia wrote:

I think this sums it up.

 

Huh? What are the christian dark ages? What happened at that time when the scientific progress was not only hindered, but it plummeted? What technological advancements were lost? I suppose I could Google search it, but I can't really read complicated text in english. I just end up not understanding 70% of the issue.

 

This post from todangst sums up the dark ages for us...

 

todangst wrote:
Ever hear of the Dark Ages? That's the time when christianity ruled the world.


And from the time of the fall of Rome, until the Renaissance - when people began to again value intellectual thought, not one significant discovery was made. Can you name one signficant scientist or scientific discovery from the 6th century? The 7th? 8th, 9th, 10th?

Now, how many can you name from the 20th?

In the Dark Ages, irrationalism replaced rationalism. In Rome, it was believed by many that the brain was the seat of intellect, and that the heart was just a muscle. In Greece, and later in Rome, it was held that the world was round... in fact, Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the world. People knew 1800 years ago how large the world was... but 1000 years later, they had NO IDEA. The heliocentric system was first uncovered in Greece.

But in the dark ages, irrationalism ruled, knowledge was shunned, and ignorace took over... people thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth, they believed that the heart was the center of the intellect.... where did this ignorance come from? The bible.

And even worse, diseases that were easily cured by ROMANS were uncurable for people living centuries AFTER the fall of Rome.

The Greeks and Romans invented the clinical method of science and medicine! They held that diseases were natural and curable.

Then came christianity, that shunned knowledge, actively worked against the disease model of medicine, and replaced it with demonology... now, a disease was a demon... Medical science actually went backwards, we actually LOST knowledge!

Think that isn't important?

Well, because of that, the lifespan of mankind actualy shrunk during that time. That's right, 1000 years after the fall of Rome, people were dying at an earlier age than they were prior to the fall of Rome. That's right, as time passed, things actually got worse.

If you don't think that's significant, you tell me what you think the life span will be 1000 years from now. Do you think it will shrink? Well, if it does, you can thank christianity again.

We has historical evidence that when religion controls the world, man suffers. That's why it's important to question christianity. It's important to think critically, because the alternative leads to death.

Quote:
How many centuries are we behind where we could be? I'd guess at least 300-400 years.


Maybe more.... just look at Greece from 500 BCE to Roman times around 200-300 AD.... look at the growth in thought....

Here's just one sobering thought. Rome, the capital city of the Roman empire, was the world's first city to approach a population of around 1 million - around 100 AD.

They were able to achieve this through technology - fine roads the could be traversed by heavy populations.... well structured buildings built to last.... (go to Rome today and take a look a some) and fresh, clean water... enough not only for drinking, but for public bathing!

The Roman aquaducts were a marvel - Roman civil engineers found a way to bring fresh clean water to a million people....

When was the next time a western city had a population of one million? When's the next time a city met this level of technological achievement?

London.

In the 19th century.

Thanks christianity. Thanks a heap. Thanks for diverting our minds to 'faith' thanks to diverting our works to building cathedrals, rather than cities.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring" -- Carl Sagan


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Sapient wrote:First, someone

Sapient wrote:

First, someone get their trigger finger ready for a "theist" badge on TPin.

Second... I've got an amazing book on this issue.

Here...



I'm guessing based on research without religion we'd currently have an average lifespan of 125, we'd have flying cars, would not be reliant on oil, but more importantly than the advancements of science... we'd be abundantly closer to world peace.

 

I think Fish makes a very valid point, and I agree with Fish, that it's a far more complicated issue. Look at the Ottoman Empire during those "Christian Dark Ages." Ever wonder where we got the mechanical clock from? The Middle East. The Romans even had little steam-powered wheeled toys for their children to play with. Religion has often been a source of anti-intellectualism, but not the sole source. Communist regimes have historically been anti-intellectual.

However, just to speculate... I give you The Year 2008 in a World Where Reason Prevailed and Religion Never Flourished, and in which science and scientists were held in extraordinary regard by civilizations during their lifetimes:

A solar-powered helicopter on top of every garage, energy collected from the sun and beamed to Earth, ecological-technological integration, massive, space-saving, self-contained arcologies, geothermal energy, gene therapy, MEME THERAPY Smiling, no world hunger, adequate birth control, a more humane political economy, more personal freedom and dignity. It's idealistic to think that no one's going to be better or worse off than anyone else, but I imagine that in a world where science and intellectual pursuits were held in high regard by the governments and the populations, we could expect fewer class antagonisms and a much more effectual, better-funded public education system. It is equally idealistic to suppose that all violence would be eradicated, but without religion as a motivating factor global violence would be significantly reduced... The use of public space would be maximized to allow for the naturalistic formation of communities once again.

 

You get the point.

“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”


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TPin wrote:Why? You are the

TPin wrote:
Why? You are the one buying into an ideology.

You've missed the mark there slightly. What we're buying into is a culture, and there's a difference. The culture is one of questioning, researching, and reasoning. In the context of that culture, finding multiple sources of evidence is better than "buying into an ideology."

You'll notice that the poster is looking for evidence by asking a question. That's part of the culture. In dogmatic circles, that's considered being pesky, but here it's encouraged.

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Dogma goes along with book

Dogma goes along with book burning in the same way that butter goes with mashed potatoes. Maybe you were watching your weight at the time, but when you get the chance. . .BRING ON THE BUTTER!