Something I found on creationscience.com

LeftofLarry
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Figure 3: Dog Variability. When bred for certain traits, dogs become different and distinctive. This is a common example of microevolution?changes in size, shape, and color?or minor genetic alterations. It is not macroevolution: an upward, beneficial increase in complexity, as evolutionists claim happened millions of times between bacteria and man. Macroevolution has never been observed in any breeding experiment.

Here is a simple point on how reatarded and stupid and oversimplifying AND most importantly how intellectually devious the xtians are.

Macroevolution is change over time....relative long time. You cannot show macroevolution by breeding dogs.. idiots... it is impossible, you cannot apply the selective pressures necessary to select for genes that would change a dog into another species in the short amount of time a breeder has..it's impossible....the theists know this but will lie and tell you that because it is not observable in dogs then.. obviously GOD CREATED DOGS and here is even more evidence of this idiocracy...

the mechanisms involved in microevolution are the exact same mechanisms involved in macroevolution. But you have tospan this over thousands and millions of years. Species change and re-form to adapt to the ever changing environments due to natural selection, NOT selective breeding, in short, a form of natural genetic engineering.. you are also seeing it now with designer pet reptiles "pie bald" pythons, red bearded dragons etc.... so in essence to use dogs as an example to discredit evolution is just plain intellectually wrong. And to do so by the theists is not surprising seeing as they lie about everything else.

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nacker wrote:
I love the irrefutable religion you have skillfully crafted and masked as scientific theorizing. These theories are made to be broken and rebuilt. That way, we can't really question the theory as a whole, but only little parts of it that we can resupport with more speculatory theories. I hope one day, you will grow out of your hypocricy and any children you have will as well. For their sakes. And the sake of my children. etc etc.
Just thinking about a rational future.

This coming from someone whose answer is God. Infallible and all knowing who's outside of time and space so that everything that happens is already known to him - we're stuck and damned if we're damned and blessed if we're blessed. You're so diluted that you can't even justify any remark you make on this board (beyond closing your eyes and covering your ears and following that with continuous lalalalalalalalala). You have no replacement for a theory that over the past hundred years has been formed into fact, you have no response to any evidence but 'that doesn't exist'. Why doesn't it exist for you? Because you're blinded by faith.

You see, if you actually gave us a peer checked proposal that would replace natural selection and explain everything it has explained with more or just as much evidence, we might listen then. Until then you can continue to keep your eyes and ears shut while flapping your gums all because you're trapped by an all knowing being that allows you to be an ignorant fool.

'We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.' - Richard Dawkins
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I think, Opiate,

That I need to study evolution a lot more. A lot deeper. Because if I am mis understanding your belief in evolution as much as you are misunderstanding my belief in God, then we aren't anywhere on the same page to understand each other. And as much as you may not believe it... I really do want to understand. So I promise... for real, not to close my ears and say lalalalalalala. B/c the only thing that matters... is truth.

I'm really still interested in responses to the nothing and infinity discussion above.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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You are loosing your entertainment value.


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HealingBlight wrote:
You are loosing your entertainment value.

Would it help if I did a belly dance?

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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You have to admit, the singularity points squarely to the existance of a great Snarfwidget that begat all things.

But seriously, The universe began when it did solely because there was no when before it existed. It was litterally the Beginning of Time. Once the singularity at the beginnign of the universe existed, the universe began to expand in at least 4 dimensions. space and Time. Before that expansion, before the first "1" there was nothing, not even a zero (I dunno). So, WHY did the universe come into existance? Because given an infinity of time, somethign will exist, something WILL come from nothing, since there was no time at all, which is the same as sayign infinite time before the big bang, it occured at the instant time began. wow that was bullshit!

I vote YES http//underdogryan.blogspot.com/2005/09/should-men-fling-poo.html


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When i was still at doing math at Uni, me and a buddy used to joke...
whenever we had a problem that we could not solve (say for X), then we would set all other variables to 0 and then X=0 problem solved Smiling

This is exactly what you are doing, Nacker...
You are setting all the variables, Evolution, the MASSIVE collection of fossil evidence for it, the Big Bang and all the evidence for it, to zero so that you can get an easy answer. The answer that you want.

You can only do that if you are willing to lie to yourself. I am not.

Your sources are all looney creationscientists (note the distinction between credible scientist and creationscientist). Does anybody maybe have the exact figures for the number of credible, degreed scientists who don't believe that Evolution took place? i guess it would be about 0.01%...

also, Nacker, you have not told me yet...
why do you believe in God?


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Saganite wrote:
You have to admit, the singularity points squarely to the existance of a great Snarfwidget that begat all things.

But seriously, The universe began when it did solely because there was no when before it existed. It was litterally the Beginning of Time. Once the singularity at the beginnign of the universe existed, the universe began to expand in at least 4 dimensions. space and Time. Before that expansion, before the first "1" there was nothing, not even a zero (I dunno). So, WHY did the universe come into existance? Because given an infinity of time, somethign will exist, something WILL come from nothing, since there was no time at all, which is the same as sayign infinite time before the big bang, it occured at the instant time began. wow that was bullshit!

Yep.
Everything from nothing is silly. Infinite time is irrational. There isn't a lot left to fill in the blanks.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:

also, Nacker, you have not told me yet...
why do you believe in God?

Actually ... I did tell you why I believe in God and you haven't addressed the argument yet. Nothing comes from nothing... an infinite amount of time is irrational. This points to some creator, some beginner. This beginner has to have the power to just exist. OUtside of time and space. In its own essence. That is unbounded, unhindered power. So I call Him God. You can't run from nothing or the infinite, and they have boxed atheism into a corner. Even your beloved evolution, which doesn't necessarily have to negate a God, can't save you. Re-read our discussions and this thread, and it will be well spelled out for you.

As for the rest of your post: there is interesting evidence for and against evolution. I've been fed enough pro-evolution propaganda for now and am interested in discussing and studying the other side. And I am enjoying it very much. It is liberating to see both sides of an issue and have a free and open mind to see both sides. I may only be arguing for one side, but that is helping me learn both sides, b/c regardless of what you believe about me, I am discussing with an open mind. Neither my identity, nor my belief on the fundamental elements of reality are dependent on this discussion. As an atheist, yours are. That is why you are incapable of having an open minded discussion on these things.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


Sapient
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nacker wrote:

Infinite time is irrational.

Most theists believe God exists infinitely. If you don't believe so, then you believe God had a start to "it" without needing a creator... that my friend would appear to be irrational. That is especially more irrational when you yourself state:

Quote:

Everything from nothing is silly.

You disproved yourself. If god existed infinitely, then you claim that's irrational. If God spawned at a point from nothingness, then everything arose from nothing which you claim is silly. I'd suggest you stop using words like silly and irrational unless directing them towards yourself, it would seem you have little understanding as to how the words are used.

- Brian Sapient


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nacker wrote:
Neither my identity, nor my belief on the fundamental elements of reality are dependent on this discussion. As an atheist, yours are. That is why you are incapable of having an open minded discussion on these things.

Absolutely fucking ridiculous and insulting. Many of us are atheists BECAUSE we're open to the notion of being wrong about "x." All founding members of the RRS grew up happy in religious belief, without an open mind we'd still be religious. We're we to be shown there was a god, or intelligent designer, with a little evidence (of which you haven't provided) we'd gladly accept the reality of the matter.

Fuck you for the insult, you fuckwad.

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Yellow_Number_Five
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nacker wrote:
I never said something comes from nothing or infinite b/c both are irrational. That's what you say.

We either came from nothing... we are infinite... or came from something big enough to start it all. Two of the three are irrational.

Are you aware of the logical fallicy known as false dichotomy, nacker?

If not, I suggest you look it up.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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nacker wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
Neither my identity, nor my belief on the fundamental elements of reality are dependent on this discussion. As an atheist, yours are. That is why you are incapable of having an open minded discussion on these things.

You have the cat by the tail.
Give any atheist any theory more plausible, more probable than what we have and we will accept it. Give me something more probable than evolution and i will accept it immediatly! Give me reason to believe that any God exists and i will accept gladly.

You have made it clear what your 'belief on the fundamental elements of reality' are. I make the statement that evolution detroys completely your idea of reality because it does not require any supernatural variable.

finally i must thank you for the excellent element of humour you include in your correspondence.... a prime example: a Christian saying that an atheist is incapable of an open-minded discussion!!!!!
R O F L M F A O ! ! !
okay okay maybe you didn't get it i'll explain.
Atheism is a result of open mindedness, rational thinking, considering the evidence at hand.
"Seeing the light" as i call it, requires the ability to challenge the mainstream thoughts on religion. To even consider the possibility that everyone else is wrong, you need serious brain cellage.

It is comforting, however, that atheists are growing in numbers exponentially as it is becoming more commonplace, more acceptable.

one more question Nacker, how old are ye? i'm just wondering... 35? 45?


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all of your perspectives are very entertaining.

With all of your "rational responses", none of you really responded to the argument. The idea of anything coming from nothing is irrational. The infinite is irrational. We are here, so we had to come from something. That is logically infallible. If we didn't come from "a nothing," and it is freakin' ridiculous for the universe to be infinite. Then the only option left is for us to come from something that exists outside of time as we know it. Something that exists in its own essence. That is the very def. of the God that must have started it all. He didn't come from anything. He is not responsible to fall under the laws of time or space or anything that He created. He is above creation. That is the logical progression from Him being the Creator... to create, you must be above the creation. Super - Creation... super - natural. You have no response to the nothing / infinite ordeal b/c there is none. It confounds and confuses the most intelligent of atheists. That is why Hawkings has no idea what reality is. He refuses to be open to the ultimate reality. God is real. Your only other option is to ignore the logical obvious. You must depend on the nothing, or the infinite. Both prove to be irrational. I understand that you may have been hurt or offended by religious people or ideas in the past, but that does not pull from the truth that we spring from a God with no boundaries, no borders, no measurement known to men... The power that is found in the God that stems from esisting in its own essence. Not dependant on chance formation from nothing. Not dependant on an infinite time. But a God that is eternal above all time, matter, space, and measurement. He must be such an entity to create all things. You pressure the theist to form a theory beyond evolution. But really you are the one in the hot seat. You must tell me a theory beyond all of us coming from nothing... Or a theory beyond the universe existing beyond an infinite time which is equally irrational. The only option is God. Run from it if you want. Deny it because of your experiences with stupid people. But it is irrational to do either. Accept the truth for what it is. Evolution is really beside the point compared to these concepts.

I came here to learn more about evolution and the rhetoric behind it, but you forced me into a corner to expose your logically impotent philosophy of atheism based either on a nothing or an equally irrational infinite. I didn't want such a discussion. I didn't come here to convert, to troll, to attack, to harrass, or anything else that you generalized me into. Perhaps you should build a building where you can meet and exclude those who don't BELIEVE as you do. The First Church of the Atheist... Free Thinkers Not Allowed.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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Mr. Bucket...

I find no importance in my age. The importance falls on the arguments posted. Most importantly, the argument of nothing and the infinite being irrational, which paints the atheist into a corner to accept one of two logical fallacies over a God of creation.... despite His means of creation. I will tell you my age. but don't let the age or the personal beliefs of the presenter of logic to pull away from the obvious logic presented.

I am 26.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:
all of your perspectives are very entertaining.

With all of your "rational responses", none of you really responded to the argument.

You're a liar. Typical.

Argument addressed here. A few posts up, and I'll do it again....

Quote:
The idea of anything coming from nothing is irrational. The infinite is irrational.

Which means your belief in a God that can be either infinite or come from nothing is irrational, making you someone who believes in irrational things. You disprove your own argument.

- Brian Sapient


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Yellow_Number_Five
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nacker wrote:
all of your perspectives are very entertaining.

With all of your "rational responses", none of you really responded to the argument.

All of your objections have been adequately addressed. You still miss the point that your point is irrelevent. I explained this to you on the last page.

Quote:
The idea of anything coming from nothing is irrational.

We agree. Reread my posts on the last page.

Quote:
The infinite is irrational.

Irrelvent to the point.

Quote:
We are here, so we had to come from something. That is logically infallible. If we didn't come from "a nothing," and it is freakin' ridiculous for the universe to be infinite. Then the only option left is for us to come from something that exists outside of time as we know it.

False dichotomy, and a non-sequitor. The options you listed are NOT the only ones, and it DOES NOT follow deductively from your statements that the ONLY possibility is something magical "outside of time" - whatever that means.

Wrong, I've given you a much simpler option on the last page; namely the law of conservation of matter-energy and existence being axiomatic. Refute the first law of thermodynamics, if you can, but I think you may find that difficult.

The rest of your post contains nothing of substance.

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Sapient wrote:
nacker wrote:
all of your perspectives are very entertaining.

With all of your "rational responses", none of you really responded to the argument.

You're a liar. Typical.

Argument addressed here. A few posts up, and I'll do it again....

Quote:
The idea of anything coming from nothing is irrational. The infinite is irrational.

Which means your belief in a God that can be either infinite or come from nothing is irrational, making you someone who believes in irrational things. You disprove your own argument.

Ok... if God created time... then He is not controlled by it. Since the infinite is irrational (as is the creation from absolutely nothing), then the unmovable mover must extend beyond the "time" as we know it. That is the logical end of our discussion. Listen to me... GOD IS NOT INFINTE... not in time. He is beyond time... beyond natural... above natural... super natural... He must be in order to create everything.

We can't come from nothing.

Our universe can't be infinite.

What ever started it all must logically be beyond coming from nothing or being infinite as we understand it.

Only God could be so.

I'm sorry that goes against your materialistic philosophy, but I open to you to give me a better theory. (evolution won't do b/c even evolution and the best cosmological models calls for the same.)

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
nacker wrote:
all of your perspectives are very entertaining.

With all of your "rational responses", none of you really responded to the argument.

All of your objections have been adequately addressed. You still miss the point that your point is irrelevent. I explained this to you on the last page.

Quote:
The idea of anything coming from nothing is irrational.

We agree. Reread my posts on the last page.

Quote:
The infinite is irrational.

Irrelvent to the point.

Quote:
We are here, so we had to come from something. That is logically infallible. If we didn't come from "a nothing," and it is freakin' ridiculous for the universe to be infinite. Then the only option left is for us to come from something that exists outside of time as we know it.

False dichotomy, and a non-sequitor. The options you listed are NOT the only ones, and it DOES NOT follow deductively from your statements that the ONLY possibility is something magical "outside of time" - whatever that means.

Wrong, I've given you a much simpler option on the last page; namely the law of conservation of matter-energy and existence being axiomatic. Refute the first law of thermodynamics, if you can, but I think you may find that difficult.

The rest of your post contains nothing of substance.

You are dressing up the infinite argument which is irrational. Seriously... quit reaching for a non-existant explanation. Did we come from nothing... or is time infinite. Pick your irrational explanation... don't try to dress it up. It is the same underneath the clothes you lay over it. Nothing or infinite. Pick your fallacy... Or pick God.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


Yellow_Number_Five
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I'm not dressing anything up nacker, I'm simply proffering the law of conservation of matter-energy. Simple thermodynamics.

My explanation is quite simple and lucid, and you've failed to address it, you simply repeat the same false dichotomy over and over and over again.

Time is actually irrelevent to my argument, read it again.

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How long has the law of converservation existed... oh yeah... forever... an infinite amount of time... that is IRRATIONAL. or ok... who created thermodynamics? Must have been a pretty powerful fellow.

Did the law of conservation (which you are substituting for God) create time? No. God did. B/c He is above time. We would only expect such of the Creator and Definer of reality. You are dressing up the "universe and matter is infinite in time" argument.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:
How long has the law of converservation existed... oh yeah... forever... an infinite amount of time... that is IRRATIONAL. or ok... who created thermodynamics? Must have been a pretty powerful fellow.

Did the law of conservation (which you are substituting for God) create time? No. God did. B/c He is above time. We would only expect such of the Creator and Definer of reality. You are dressing up the universe and mater is infinite in time argument.

Any time you wish to actually address the argument, let us all know. I have no time to write lengthy responses to pure, empty rhetoric.

Thanks.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
nacker wrote:
How long has the law of converservation existed... oh yeah... forever... an infinite amount of time... that is IRRATIONAL. or ok... who created thermodynamics? Must have been a pretty powerful fellow.

Did the law of conservation (which you are substituting for God) create time? No. God did. B/c He is above time. We would only expect such of the Creator and Definer of reality. You are dressing up the universe and mater is infinite in time argument.

Any time you wish to actually address the argument, let us all know. I have no time to write lengthy responses to pure, empty rhetoric.

Thanks.

diddo.

Tell me. Is you law of conservation infinite??? Has it always existed in time?? That is irrational. If it existed outside of time, then when did time come into reality? Did your law create time? No. Your laws are bound by time that must be finite. You are ignoring this and using empty rhetoric to call this logical reasoning "empty rhetoric" to hide the fact that you have no answer to the "nothing / infinite argument." Please answer the question... Did we come from nothing??? or is the universe infinite? If the universe is infinte, then how did we some how traverse the infinite to reach this moment? This isn't empty rhetoric. This is logical reasoning based on scientific evidence of reality of time. Stop hiding. Pick. Nothing... or infinite. Choose your fallacy.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:
If we didn't come from "a nothing," and it is freakin' ridiculous for the universe to be infinite. Then the only option left is for us to come from something that exists outside of time as we know it. Something that exists in its own essence. That is the very def. of the God

You say that it is rediculous for the universe to be infinite, but then you go on to conclude that the only logical alternative is 'something that exists outside of time' ?

Listen to yourself, you are delusional. Or retarded, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

your logical alternative is infinitely more rediculous than an infinite universe, you accept it simply because it makes your god possible.

i'll believe that the universe is infinite until YOU SHOW ME THE BOUNDARIES.


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:
If we didn't come from "a nothing," and it is freakin' ridiculous for the universe to be infinite. Then the only option left is for us to come from something that exists outside of time as we know it. Something that exists in its own essence. That is the very def. of the God

You say that it is rediculous for the universe to be infinite, but then you go on to conclude that the only logical alternative is 'something that exists outside of time' ?

Listen to yourself, you are delusional. Or retarded, but i'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

your logical alternative is infinitely more rediculous than an infinite universe, you accept it simply because it makes your god possible.

i'll believe that the universe is infinite until YOU SHOW ME THE BOUNDARIES.

Ok... here are the boundaries...

If the universe is infinite, then the past amount of events are infinite... i.e. never ending. But the past amount of events just ended by this moment. They have been BOUNDED. There is your boundary. Somehow you have just passed up infinity like an old woman driving too slow in the fast lane. But you can't pass up the infinite. BECAUSE IT IS INFINITE!!!!!!

Because of these logical boundaries, time must be finite. If time is finite, then it had a beginning. This beginning can't come from nothing. What ever began time must exist outside of it to bring the beginning of time into reality. Thus, this entity must be above time. This concept is not "retarded," it is only logical.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:

Ok... here are the boundaries...

If the universe is infinite, then the past amount of events are infinite... i.e. never ending. But the past amount of events just ended by this moment. They have been BOUNDED. There is your boundary.

R O F L M F A O
you make as much sense as pubic hair (which according to you, is a part of intelligent design?)


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nacker wrote:

We can't come from nothing.

And obviously neither can god since as you say that would be irrational.

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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:

Ok... here are the boundaries...

If the universe is infinite, then the past amount of events are infinite... i.e. never ending. But the past amount of events just ended by this moment. They have been BOUNDED. There is your boundary.

R O F L M F A O
you make as much sense as pubic hair (which according to you, is a part of intelligent design?)

That was not a very rational, logical, or reasonable response to the argument. I will write it off to the fact that you don't understand the logic.

Your blatant recoiling to another discussion is not too hard to see as an avoidance of the issue at hand.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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Sapient wrote:
nacker wrote:

We can't come from nothing.

And obviously neither can god since as you say that would be irrational.

correct.

so... since He can't come from nothing, and can't be merely infinite... He must be above the idea of "comming into existence" and above the idea of time. Those absolute qualities are inferred in the title of God.

You are attacking God instead of looking at the logic. You are left open to yourself extending from nothing, or your time being infinite which are both ridiculous. You aren't left with many other options. I'm waiting for a theory that fits our logical position besides the obvious of an unbounded God.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:

I will write it off to the fact that you don't understand the logic.

Oh that?s convenient I didn't know one could do that....
Mr. Nacker it is my honest opinion that you have a distorted view of reality, necessitated by the irrational need to conserve an irrational belief in an irrational god. It appears that you are intellectually handicapped and/or in a mental state closely resembling psychosis...


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Oh that?s convenient I didn't know one could do that....
Mr. Bucket it is my honest opinion that you have a distorted view of reality, necessitated by the irrational need to conserve an irrational belief in an irrational... nothing. It appears that you are intellectually handicapped and/or in a mental state closely resembling psychosis...

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:

You are attacking God instead of looking at the logic.

The logic does not even hint at a god, never mind the Christian one.


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:

You are attacking God instead of looking at the logic.

The logic does not even hint at a god, never mind the Christian one.

Again you are diverting the conversation. Who said anything about Christianity?

Did the universe appear from nothing??? Or is it infinite??? Choose your Fallacy.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:
Oh that?s convenient I didn't know one could do that....
Mr. Bucket it is my honest opinion that you have a distorted view of reality, necessitated by the irrational need to conserve an irrational belief in an irrational... nothing. It appears that you are intellectually handicapped and/or in a mental state closely resembling psychosis...

your inability to come up with your own words speaks volumes...


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:
Oh that?s convenient I didn't know one could do that....
Mr. Bucket it is my honest opinion that you have a distorted view of reality, necessitated by the irrational need to conserve an irrational belief in an irrational... nothing. It appears that you are intellectually handicapped and/or in a mental state closely resembling psychosis...

your inability to come up with your own words speaks volumes...

My words are still waiting for a response.

Did we come from nothing?... or is the universe infinte?... choose your fallacy.

your inability to respond to my own words speaks volumes...

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:

You are attacking God instead of looking at the logic.

The logic does not even hint at a god, never mind the Christian one.

Again you are diverting the conversation. Who said anything about Christianity?

Did the universe appear from nothing??? Or is it infinite??? Choose your Fallacy.

My apologies... If you were not refering to the christian god to which one were you refering and what evidence supports your belief in his existence?


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Really.

Stop fighting me.

Stop fighting God.

Just forget about God.

And look at the logic.

We didn't come from nothing...

The infinite is irrational. So where did we come from??? The universe isn't infinite... it didn't come from nothing.... so it came from something BEYOND THE INFINITE. What do can we call this thing of such power... The CREATOR OF TIME. Existing in itself... not necessitating creation....

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:

You are attacking God instead of looking at the logic.

The logic does not even hint at a god, never mind the Christian one.

Again you are diverting the conversation. Who said anything about Christianity?

Did the universe appear from nothing??? Or is it infinite??? Choose your Fallacy.

My apologies... If you were not refering to the christian god to which one were you refering and what evidence supports your belief in his existence?

Again you are diverting the conversation. At this point the "Which god" discussion is irrelevant.

Did the universe appear from nothing??? Or is it infinite??? Choose your Fallacy. Or Choose God. Then you can seek yourself the "Which God?"

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:
Really.

Stop fighting me.

Stop fighting God.

Just forget about God.

And look at the logic.

We didn't come from nothing...

The infinite is irrational. So where did we come from??? The universe isn't infinite... it didn't come from nothing.... so it came from something BEYOND THE INFINITE. What do can we call this thing of such power... The CREATOR OF TIME. Existing in itself... not necessitating creation....

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.

You say i must stop fighting you, stop fighting God, and then you go on to say that God created the universe! wtf?

I will not explain the things i do not know with an imaginary supernatural entity which is not suggested by evidence or logic. That would be irrational.


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
nacker wrote:
Really.

Stop fighting me.

Stop fighting God.

Just forget about God.

And look at the logic.

We didn't come from nothing...

The infinite is irrational. So where did we come from??? The universe isn't infinite... it didn't come from nothing.... so it came from something BEYOND THE INFINITE. What do can we call this thing of such power... The CREATOR OF TIME. Existing in itself... not necessitating creation....

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.

You say i must stop fighting you, stop fighting God, and then you go on to say that God created the universe! wtf?

I will not explain the things i do not know with an imaginary supernatural entity which is not suggested by evidence or logic. That would be irrational.

So instead you explain it with nothing.

Yes I say stop fighting me, stop fighting God, and then I go on to say that God created the universe! But you skipped part of my argument. After I said, "you must stop fighting me, stop fighting God," I said, "look at the logic." That logic creates a box that can only be filled with "God created the universe!"

Instead, you are open to explain it as a theory based on nothing...
Or you explain it with an infinite that is absolutely, completely... Irrational. You have yet to answer the question.

Did the universe suddenly appear from a blanket of nothing, or did it exist in the infinite. Choose your fallacy... or choose God.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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Nacker, take a deep breath... then go read this thread from the beginning.
Some of my christian buddies are finally thinking about converting to atheism BECAUSE OF THE IDIOTIC THINGS YOU HAVE SAID!!!

When i make sense they are immediatley defensive and they defend their beliefs. When they see your moronic arguments they realise how rediculous their religion is.

A sincere thanks for aiding us in the cause...


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nacker wrote:

So instead you explain it with nothing.

No you retard, you don't have to explain it.
I'd rather accept that i don't know than explain it with hocus pocus.


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nacker wrote:
My words are still waiting for a response.

Did we come from nothing?... or is the universe infinte?... choose your fallacy.

your inability to respond to my own words speaks volumes...

Let's suppose something, supposition is your game is it not?

Let's take a book. It has words written within its cover, its bound and ordered. It's an object of design. Books don't just magically appear out of no where. Some form of intelligence created it or it wouldn?t exist.

Now let?s take another leap, someone reads the book. Barring they understand the language it is written in and the subject at hand is not out of their rational grasp of reality (even if it is) that book is going to create something. It will create a world of its own. It creates voices and products that are otherwise non-existent without it, it reforms someone?s outlook of reality and it enlightens their very essence of being conscious.

Now let?s add some more substance to this exposition, the book wasn?t fiction. The creator didn?t magically summon a new world of characters and events that never happened, he observed. This observation was a discovery but it wasn?t a creation. This discovery changed someone?s world though and likely changed the discoverer?s. But it wasn?t in anywhere a form of intelligent design, it was a form of intelligent discovery and then transposition of such discoveries in the held language of the observer? but it wasn?t an act of creational design. The evidence was at hand and it was to put it dimly, stumbled upon. The creator deserves credit for the discovery but if he hadn?t experienced a so called ?clicking? of meaning in his mind, someone else likely would have discovered it in due time.

Now let?s look at another perspective of these events. A reader happens upon this book and his life is changed. He?s seen the ?light? because of this book. He in no way can believe that the author just happened upon these ideas. Nope, not possible? the author was given the ideas from god, who created them. How does this man know this? Well after he read the book nothing was the same, the book formed in his mind a new world that never existed, this act of creation was a gift from God through the author. It doesn?t matter that there was evidence and research involved with the discovery, it doesn?t matter that such collection of data was scrutinized to an utmost level to secure the ideas in the book as closely to ?truth? as he could. Nope, it was a supernatural gift of creation from through that author?s mind and the idea couldn?t be refuted by this poor soul because of what it did in his mind.

Sadly this man believes in a lie. The author created the book. He observed what he did and wrote it down. The event wasn?t special in the way a creation of fiction can be special. It wasn?t produced out of ?thin air? (or thick? considering brain matter). It was nothing more than observation and explanation. It was enlightenment of the scientific kind and it created for one sole person who came across it a divine interpretation.

Now let?s look at the problem with finite and infinite space. Considering all things natural (explain to me how they could ever not be) the answer is in some forms ?out there?. It might not be in our observable universe but it is ?out there?. We are caged by our observable universe just like you are caged by the walls in a house. Now there are ways of probing outside such a cage (especially if you are lucky enough to have windows) but such probing is held in the mind of the observer. Right now we live in a windowless room. We have no outside grasp beyond what we have in this room. We know the room exists, we follow its laws and rules, we observe what they mean and determine and follow such things to the truth. The room had to be built at some time. So did we? by following in the room we have found evidence about how we were built. To borrow from Dennett (well this whole thing in a way is a crane built of his many?) we?ve been able to discover through observation and speculation series of ?cranes? that brought us to being. Now we might not have all the cranes in place to create a perfect explanation of every process our being had to go through to get where it is, but we have enough to know that from what we observe ? the cranes exist. There is no evidence for imaginary steps of miracles and magic or what Dennett would call ?skyhooks?. The idea of such miraculous things is absurd because of everything we have actually observed.

So, we look at the creation of the room it self. All we see are walls. But what we can see are architectural residues of what it was like during its creation. What constituents existed during such processes, we see how they lead to the furniture in the room and how their basic physical properties could lead to the formation of viable objects. That the raw materials that set out at nothing more than a mass of matter formed into constructive objects that seemed ordered. All of this observable and backed by the very rules we have observed all along. We continue to look at such processes and we soon come back to the creation of ourselves. That they are connected by the same laws, that from the beginning of time and the start of the construction of the room through our coming to be inside the room, that there are no skyhooks to be found. (Who?d believe in a skyhook anyway? How?d it get there in the first place?) But we still can?t find ground anywhere when it comes to how the room was constructed; everything just leads away from that with time.

My point here is that everything does make sense. Everything is natural. Everything is a series of cranes one after another leading to the now. I am here because my parents fucked. You?re here because of the same fact, but with different parents. There is no place for miraculous connotations in what we observe because they aren?t needed. So, why should we need them before the ?big bang?? Why start speculation over some higher being then? That doesn?t answer anything because that?s just creating a skyhook that itself can?t be explained. You can explain how god is the reason the laws are in place that govern this universe, but saying something like that isn?t Science. It?s nothing more than a faith based statement. It?s theological philosophy and in such a stance it?s ok, but it isn?t an answer to the questions at hand.

If you look to the future of our universe, whatever it ends up being? it?s going to continue as a process that can be explained. Unless for some reason after billions of years it decides to spontaneously create skyhooks. Everything we?ve observed says one things ? this universe is an ongoing process. Ongoing because we observe time in the way we do, but also because it does have a notion of direction. Believing that this direction isn?t a continuation goes against everything we know and believing at some point it will end is in a lot of instances going against what we know. Sure, the universe could end? everything we observed could lead to nothing but it?s going to lead to nothing in a explainable manner, just as how the dodo came to an end through explainable reason. The dodo didn?t miraculously disappear, it didn?t choose one day as a species to end, some higher power didn?t decide that it had its proverbial ?time?, no an explainable process that was in place before the dodo even came into existence and was the cause of its existence led to its extinction.

God is no answer - it?s just tying a loose end with another loose end with another... ad infinitum.

This whole post owes a lot of credit to a lot of people, a majority of it to Daniel C. Dennett. It's a product of my mind and their ideas... I just hope I was able to create something out of it.

'We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.' - Richard Dawkins
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Ok Bucket...

Breath taken...

You believe that there was no beginning. That everything just was. Obviously, b/c of the law of thermodynamics.

So therefore, we (as humans) have come to exist from the laws of nature (i.e. thermodynamics, natural selection acting on random mutations) from some point in the INFINITE past (that some how we have surpassed by this moment) from a big bang that had to occur b/c of the laws that govern reality extending from a singularity into the expanding present... and through various random genetic mutations, conserved by natural selection (forgetting about the Cambrian explosion, fossil record, and the stasis of the amount of phyla since that period) we have arrived from a single cell organism from the primordial soup (of which there is no physical evidence) along with all animal and PLANT LIFE.

And all of that has either come from Nothing... or an infinite amount of time.

ALL OF THAT IS IRRATIONAL.

So for the benefit of your friends... here is what I am saying.

We are not here from nothing, because nothing is non - existant and cannot create anything. The universe cannot be infintie, because the idea of the infinite itself is irrational. And we cannot pass up the infinite amount of past events to reach this moment. If the time before this moment were infinte... then it would never end. But we have just ended the infinite past with this moment. The infinite past is irrational.

The infinite itself is irrational...

I have an infinite amount of marbles and give all of them to you.

Infinity - Infinity = 0.

I have an infinite amount of marbles and give you all of the odd. There are an infinite amount of odd marbles, and an infinite amount of even marbles (of which I retain.)

Infinity - infinity = infinity

I have an infinite amount of marbles and give you all of them beginning with the 11th marble. You have an infinite amount of marbles and I have ten.

Infinity - Infinity = 10

The infinite is irrational and has no place inside of reality except as a concept.

God is not infinite insied of time and therefore controlled by it. He is the creator of time, space, and matter, and He can therefore not be controlled by it. He has no boundaries (like the boundaries of time). That is why He is God.

The universe, along the the time that governs it, must have been created, or put into existence.

Whatever has the power to exist outside of your human, naturalistic laws... must be supernatural. Unbounded by time. Unbounded by any created thing. That power is the very defintion that a God of Creation would logically have. Looking at the "scientific options" of reality based on nothing, or the irrational infinite... God is the only logical answer...

your refutal to that has yet to come, so your friends have rational and logical reasons to reject the materialistic philosophy of atheism.

Your friends can rest assured in their God that is above human understanding. If we could understand all of His ways then we might as well be god. But He is God. And we are not. He has made Himself evident in His creation... including His creation of human reason which logically cries out against creation from nothing... (necessitating God's creation) and an infinite universe (necessitating a creator beyond all limits of time... an incredible God of power). Their logic has led them to a God of unlimited existence and perfection. We aren't perfect, so to relate to Him, we need Help. Being good, He has provided the way for us to overcome our imperfections through His blood. Now we can relate to this awesome God of perfection again. What a mighty God is the God of reality.

Relay that... unedited... to your friends. It isn't about church. It isn't about religion... it is about the reality of an incredible God of reality that seeks us to be made pure in His love.

And for you... You have yet to answer my question... nothing or infinite?

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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OpiateCopulation wrote:
nacker wrote:
My words are still waiting for a response.

Did we come from nothing?... or is the universe infinte?... choose your fallacy.

your inability to respond to my own words speaks volumes...

Let's suppose something, supposition is your game is it not?

[/b]

Your post was fully read... and fully dismissed...

b/c... no... Supposition is not my game. My game is reality.

We are here.

We did not come from nothing.

The infinite is irrational... especially the infinite according to time.

Your lengthy, although "intellectual", discourse is stumped by the obvious logic attacking both conclusions. The cosmological "natural" scientific models support the singularity that you are trying to write off to future discoveries.

Ok... future discoveries will "supposedly" disprove god... (the supposition is your realm right?)
Right now... it proves God. Be honest truth seekers and accept God... "for now." Until your magical evicence appears and removes singularity, existence from nothing, and the irrational infinite.

If you continue to discard the rational-now-reality, then you might as well say that none of us really exist and this life is all one big dream. Then close your eyes and sleep satisfied in your philisophical and intellectual "obvious" presuppositions...

until you wake up.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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So, a lack of knowledge alludes to a god? I don't know jack shit about flying a plane... must mean there's a god. I don't know a damned thing about how special effects are produced in movies... must mean there's a god. I have no clue how some songs are musically composed? must means there?s a god. I mean, it?s not like I could ever actually observe something and learn.

There's a huge flaw in your 'logic'. Not understanding something doesn't mean there's a god, it means you don't understand something.

Did I ever say we came from nothing? Did I ever declare we live in an infinite world? You seem quite obsessed about the infinite when your declaration of a god is no different than a declaration of something being infinite.

Infinite:
adj.

1. Having no boundaries or limits.
2. Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.
3. Mathematics.
1. Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
2. Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.
3. Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.

n.

Something infinite.

Omnipotent:
adj.

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See usage note at: infinite.

n.

1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

So, is it me or through all your infinite talk you've disproved the existence of god?

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OpiateCopulation wrote:
So, a lack of knowledge alludes to a god?.

Nope. The knowledge of the irrational of either the stemming from nothing or the infinite is ridiculous... end of that conversation.
:::new conversation::::'

God makes scientific sense. If God is God then He must have existed in His own essence, and created time. That is logical. And extending from the logical definition of God into our present circumstance...
Since we can't come from nothing, and the universe can't be infinite, then whatever we came from must have existed in its own essence, and created time. That is logical. wow... the definition of what God must be... and our present circumstance kind of fall in line!!!

OpiateCopulation wrote:
Infinite:
adj.

1. Having no boundaries or limits.
2. Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.
3. Mathematics.
1. Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.
2. Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.
3. Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.

n.

Something infinite.

Omnipotent:
adj.

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.

n.

1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

Those are some nifty defintions... did you get those from definitions.com??? or maybe www.m-w.com. I bet a lot of humans... trying to understand the irrational concept of the infinite spent a lot of time on those definitions.

Good job of finding useless dribble to fill up your post. You have yet to support the universe extending from a nothing or to support the infinite as anything but irrational. God is the best explanation of the given evidence. This is not a belief from ignorance, but from the best evidence.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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But god himself is infinite in being otherwise his essence of being couldn't be explained by him just 'being'. So, for god to exist and for him to create our universe that means, according to your logic, that god is irrational. Or wait, is your god not allowed to be put up to the same scrutiny science is? If that was true that?d only mean god was outside this domain of existence and in another sense infinite. Talk about circular reasoning! God?s infinite existence explains the irrationality of the infinite or of God. Now put up your blinders and explain this for me please! With all your irrational explanations of the rational that is itself irrational because of the irrationality of irrational explanation.

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OpiateCopulation wrote:
But god himself is infinite in being otherwise his essence of being couldn't be explained by him just 'being'. So, for god to exist and for him to create our universe that means, according to your logic, that god is irrational. Or wait, is your god not allowed to be put up to the same scrutiny science is? If that was true that?d only mean god was outside this domain of existence and in another sense infinite. Talk about circular reasoning!

Please... oh please oh please oh please read this before posting again...

If God is God... then He is above all things... including time. That means that He has not existed for an infinite amount of time. He is above all time. We would only expect so much from God. HE IS NOT INFINITE. He doesn't exist within the laws in which He created. If He created such laws... then He is above them. He had to exist outside such laws to create them.

This theory fits our present circumstance. We cannot come from nothing. The universe cannot be infinite. We had to come from something that created us and time as well. God is the only thing that fits that circumstance at the present time. Accept the best evidence.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.


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nacker wrote:
Accept the best evidence.

That god is irrational? Ok, done. I feel better already.


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OpiateCopulation wrote:
nacker wrote:
Accept the best evidence.

That god is irrational? Ok, done. I feel better already.

You are ignoring the obvious. You are blinded by your naturalistic, materialistic philosophy.

Your philosophy is hopeless at explaining why we are here.

You write off God according to your philosophy. THAT... Is logical fallacy.

The true definition of God (if you can think freely to accept it) simply explains reality (singularity, nothing, infinity). You have simply written of a side of reality that doesn't fit your identity.

God is not irrational... your belief in us coming from nothing... or the infinite is.

God is the best fit for the evidence that we have. Open you mind. Think freely.

"What, this "god guy" is telling us to think freely???"

yep.

You are enslaved to your philosophy and refuse to acknowledge the irrationality of your beliefs to understand that only an unhindered God can explain our existence.

Call it God. Or come up with another theory extrapolating the logical defintions of nothing and the infinite.