Bible's Account of Creation

Kingdom9
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Bible's Account of Creation

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth." And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so. And God made the two great lights--the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night--and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. And God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens." So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth." And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (Genesis 1:1-31)

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground-- then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and there it divided and became four rivers. The name of the first is the Pishon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush. And the name of the third river is the Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:1-25)

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths. And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?" And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself." He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them. Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:1-24)

 

This is the story of the Creation of the world according to the Bible. Now if this is true it would mean that animals are not related and that we did not evolve from single cells. This would mean that we are descended from 2 humans who were created in the image of God.

 

Is there any facts in nature that would contradict this account of creation?

Is there any contradictions in the first chapters of the book of Genesis?

Do you believe this is the way the universe came into being? Why? 

Without faith it is impossible to please God for he who comes to God must believe that He exists (Hebrews 11:6).

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I


magilum
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Thanks for posting the

Thanks for posting the complete texts. I know it can be hard to find them.


zarathustra
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Kingdom9 wrote:   This is

Kingdom9 wrote:
 

This is the story of the Creation of the world according to the Bible.

 So that's it. 

 

Kingdom9 wrote:
Now if this is true it would mean that animals are not related and that we did not evolve from single cells. This would mean that we are descended from 2 humans who were created in the image of God.

Is there any facts in nature that would contradict this account of creation?

Every fact in nature contradicts this account. 

Kingdom9 wrote:

Is there any contradictions in the first chapters of the book of Genesis?

Yes.  The 1st creation story obviously contradicts the 2nd.   

Kingdom9 wrote:
 

Do you believe this is the way the universe came into being? Why?

No - because creation myths are a feature of any ancient culture - and this one isn't a particularly good one.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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I've never been given the

I've never been given the chance to read this great piece of literature until now.  Now that I've actually read it I feel the power of something greater than myself surging through me..

It almost makes me want to ignore the suggestion that plants came before the sun... the lesser light to rule the night.. isn't a frigging "light" at all.. you might think god would know this... but no matter I still feel the strange hand of god urging me on..

Under this new power I can now overlook the fact that this passage of the bible seems as if it were written for a Stone Age (or 3rd grade mentality) and that it's basically a rip-off of dozens of other creation myths...... Oh! If only I had just read the bible alone and ignored trying to expand my mind w/ books and education.

I feel as "god" himself must have after creating the earth and then.. had to take a big ol' rest.  Gee! I wonder how he felt after creating the trillions of other planets and stars ?  What's 7 days X several trillion ? (Disclaimer: Trillion is sort of a silly conservative estimate, but numbers like infinite don't translate well).

Not even the "crafty serpent" w/ the vocabulary of a talk show host can shake this new feeling I have.. Why I believe they call it faith... Burp !

Naw, I guess it was just indigestion. 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


I AM GOD AS YOU
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    god is so awesome,

    god is so awesome, I could fall on my knees,

god wants me , god needs me, god loves me,

I love god, I really do, we are one ! God is indeed great !  

Hail a you ya !  and a hail mary to boot !


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Gotta give him credit for

Gotta give him credit for persistence. Or, is that mulishness?


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Hah Americanidle, I had that

Hah Americanidle, I had that same feeling to, but mine was gas.


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The first one I notice is

The first one I notice is god created light on the first day, but didn't create any light producing objects until the 4th.


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He created night and

He created night and day?

So what did the North and South Poles have? Just all night and all day? Seems a little discriminatory.

How was there water without all these other things??

If he created the whole Universe, why is this only focused on Earth. Was God hiding the rest of the Universe?

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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Dear Kingdom9 for all I

Dear Kingdom9 for all I know you're probably a pretty decent guy who has honorable motives for being here.

That being said, you should be advised that a very large portion of this membership were at one time practicing Christians who, even as atheists, are still intimately familiar with scripture.

If your approach is to simply quote verses then I'm afraid that your arguments will largely be ignored / ridiculed.

There are also a few members here whose experience with Scripture falls with a true scholarly context and whose academic qualifications far transcends the experience of the typical Sunday school Christian.

I suggest you fortify your positions with some legitimate research of your own or else be prepared to be skinned alive Wink.

Best regards PDW


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  - The Bible is the word

 

- The Bible is the word of God honey !

- But how can you know for sure that the Bible is the word of God mommy ?

- Because the Bible says that it is the word of God sweetheart !

- Oh ! I understand, the Bible is true because the Bible says its true !

- Yes ! You are a smart girl !

You got to love a book that auto-reference itself.

 

PS : Good luck Kingom9, I don't give you a week here ! 

 

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Kingdom9 wrote:

Kingdom9 wrote:
Is there any facts in nature that would contradict this account of creation?

Well, the simple fact that you share common genes with the coffey you are drinking right now would suggest that the Bible should be renamed Bullshit.

But hell, what are genes anyways right ?

If human beings is the best that God could come up with... He sucks ! 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com


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Kingdom9 wrote: Do you

Kingdom9 wrote:

Do you believe this is the way the universe came into being? Why?

 


Visual_Paradox
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"And God said, 'Let there be

"And God said, 'Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.'"

I love dishonest translations. The Hebrew word rendered "expanse" here, raquiya, is derived from the primitive root word raqa meaning "pound the earth" and by implication "expand by beating" or "make broad by stamping." The Hebrew carries the connotation of a firm, solid, object that was expanded by being beaten. A more appropriate English word would be "firmament" because it also carries the connotation of being firm. As such, a more appropriate translation would be, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters." The author of Job (i.e. someone who interprets the Hebraic text honestly) says the firmament is as hard as a cast metal mirror. Your Bible translation isn't so much a translation as it is a plagiarized modification of the source text. You should find a better translation or learn how to translate Hebrew yourself.

As for your question, "Is [sic] there any facts in nature that would contradict this account of creation?" Yes. In Hebrew, one would write "yom" ("day&quotEye-wink alongside a preposition if one were being allegorical and one would avoid using a preposition alongside it if one were being literal so we know the author in Genesis was being literal (source). As such, one can establish the timeframe between Adam and Jesus, then add 2,007 years and six days to establish that the Earth, according to Genesis, is approximately 6,000 years old. Dendrochronological dating methods have established that at least one of the Bristlecone Pine trees in the White-Inyo mountains germinated around 6,000 B.C.E. which is approximately 2,000 years before the Earth existed according to the Genesis creation story. Further, counting the annual layering of algae bloom in Lake Suigetsu results in 45,000 layers which means layer accumulation began at approximately 43,000 B.C.E. Further, the creation story says birds were around before full-fledged land animals but the fossil record reveals the opposite. I could continue showing massive flaws in the creation story, but those facts are sufficient to show its falsity.

Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!


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I think this is the first

I think this is the first time I've ever felt bad for a theist on this forum.  Honestly.  I'm really starting to feel bad.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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And here is a cosmological

And here is a cosmological perspective :

Since the speed of light is finite. If the world was 6,000 years old, we should not be able to see farther than 6,000 light years away in every direction of the sky since light that would come farther than this wouldn't have had the time to reach us.

The Andromeda Galaxy (observable to the naked eye) is 2.5 million light-years away. Why can we see it ? And why are we able to see the microwave background radiation that is 13.7 billion light years away ?

According to the bible, we shouldn't be able to see the entirety of our own galaxy and yet not only do we see all of our milky way but we see billions of galaxies.

Galaxy cluster Abell 1689 (does the name ring a bell?) It is 2.2 billion light years away from earth and the farthest galaxies in the picture are at 13 billion light years away.

 

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
romancedlife.blogspot.com


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Kingdom9 - Many of us here

Kingdom9 - Many of us here are quite familiar with the Bible.  It's also easy to access both in print and online.  In the future, perhaps you could limit your post to your questions and maybe just directing us to a specific passage if it is really specifically applicable.


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There is a very simple

There is a very simple answer to the so called speed of light problem. According to the Bible God created Adam the first man. Was Adam a baby when God created him? No. Adam was a fully formed man. God bypassed the time it would have taken Adam to reach full maturity and created him that way.

In the same way when God made the stars they were immediatley visible on earth. God bypassed the time it would have taken for the light to travel these huge distances.

Now to say that the universe was always here you are going to have huge problems. Why are the galaxies still spiral shapped if the universe was always here? Galaxies slowly loose their spiral shape over time. Why are there still comets? What are the planets in our solar system still warm? Would they not have cooled down over time? There are many other facts of nature that show that the universe had a beginning. 

Something interesting to think about is the fact that the earth is a perfect distance from the sun to sustain life. The sun could not have formed it had to have been created. 

Without faith it is impossible to please God for he who comes to God must believe that He exists (Hebrews 11:6).

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I


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Quote:

Quote:

God bypassed the time it would have taken for the light to travel these huge distanc

This is ad hoc. You are begging the question since you are making this assertion only by virtue of your assumption that your original premise is true, yet using this assumption to prove your original premise. The fact is, your assertion is ad hoc because you are not deriving this absurd statement from any empirical fact, but rather from your presupposition that cannot be contradicted by empirical evidence because it is divinely written yet you employ that same argument to prove it was divinely written on grounds that it cannot be wrong. This is circular reasoning. The fact that creationists have come up with a concept such as "light in transit" has shown how desperate they are. The cold hard fact of the universe is that the speed of light never alters in a vacuum, cannot be exceeded, cannot be suprseded, it cannot be "bypassed" and it cannot be made to go faster. This can be empirically established as it is the first principle of Relativity. When you are examining something the light which is 16,000 light years away, you are examining it as it appeared 16,000 years ago. When it is 50,000 light years away, you are examining it as it appeared 50,000 years ago, etc. End of story. 

It is pretty easy to demonstrate a similar principle yourself using a calculator. Normal 0 false false false EN-US ZH-CN X-NONE /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;}

Normal 0 false false false EN-US ZH-CN X-NONE The Metric Expansion of Space is the most accurate and current model of the universe to date. The expansion of space-time overpowers gravity and hence accelerates in expansion. We can determine the rate at which space-time accelerates using Hubble’s constant. Then, by extrapolating backwards, we can determine the precise time at which the universe began to expand, in other words, if we have the value of acceleration of the universe, we can work backwards and determine the moment of creation, that will be the origin or the singularity on that graph, when the distance between all material beings was negligible, in other words, we can work out when the Big Bang occurred.

Cosmological Redshift: There are many different types of redshift. There is the Relativistic Doppler Effect, where redshift is caused by the relative velocity of two bodies from each other (this is the effect of Special Relativity), there is gravitational redshift, caused by the distortion of space time by material bodies, but these do not matter at cosmological distances. What we need to look at is cosmological redshift, that is, the redshift caused by the expansion of space-time, this is the only form of redshift which has measurable consequences at cosmological distances.

When we examine distant galaxies, we discover they are moving away from us at a calculable rate. Based on the distance they are from us, the wavelength of light from them which we are observing also changes by a calculable amount. The recessional velocity (the speed at which other galaxies are moving away from us), the distance which galaxies are from us, the redshift, or change in wavelength as a result of this recession and distance, and lastly, the acceleration or the rate at which the velocity is increasing, are all linked by several simple equations, and from this we can easily determine the age of the universe, or rather, how long ago the point was that there was no distance between the two receding bodies, the moment of the Big Bang. Firstly,

v=HD

This is the simplest equation we must understand. The recessional velocity (the speed at which a body is moving from Earth) is directly proportional to the distance it is from us. What connects them is Hubble’s constant, which is exactly what we need to find out.

v=HD can be rearranged to find Hubble’s constant based on the recessional velocity and distance of an observed galaxy, where we have: H=(v/D).

 

Also, the recessional velocity with respect to time (ie the time between the intervals measured) can be given by differentiation: dD/dT, since that is essentially what velocity is, the first differential of displacement.

Hubble’s constant, the acceleration of the universe, is given in km/s/Mpc, as is v.

The next principle we must understand is z, z is the change in wavelength as observed due to the recession of galaxies. It is defined as( λemitted x λobserved/λemitted). There are simple equations which link v, z, and H, but they only work for close galaxies. When the galaxies measured are too distant, any model which uses z for estimation of Hubble’s parameter must detail the precise change in z, D, and H due to the fact that the light has taken so long to get to Earth. But for close galaxies, these paramaters will not have changed much, so we can estimate v using v=zc, where c is the speed of light. We will not be doing this. For one, close galaxies blueshift due to gravity, which also, obviously, totally distorts any result we may glean by cosmological redshift.

This means that I have to use the scale factor of the LRMW metric in order to derive an accurate result. We can calculate the distance to galaxies using Cepheid variables. We can calculate their recessional velocity using the amount by which the light has shifted. The problem is that the measurements the Cepheids give us will not account for the present position of the galaxy since the light from the Cepheids set out to Earth many millions of years ago for distant galaxies. However, if Hubble’s Law holds, this does not matter, because the acceleration of the universe is expressed as a constant, and we should still be able to use this data to extrapolate back into the Big Bang.

Now, for cosmological redshift, the formula given is:

1+z= (anow/athen).

a is the universe scale factor. The physical distance between commoving objects is given by L=λa(t), which is rearranged to give a(t)= L/λ

This can be expressed via Hubble’s Law (distance proportional to redshift) using this formula:

H=a2(t)/a1(t), where t is the time derivative of the equation

We are beginning to see how the expansion of the universe, redshift, wavelength, the distance and recessional velocities of galaxies and the time taken for this to occur all tie together and all converge to give us the age of the universe. a or the scale factor is a simple ratio of wavelength emitted: wavelength received, which allows us to account for the change over large times. If the wavelength of light which we receive from a star is twice its original wavelength, that means that the universe in terms of space-time has doubled in size since that photon left the body which emitted it. This is because cosmological redshift is caused by the expansion of space-time itself, which stretches the wavelength of light being emitted over long distances.

We will be examining standard candles later, ie Cepheid variables, but the best way to determine the absolute magnitude of an object, the very best standard candles are Type Ia supernovae. It was using observations from these from the Chiandri telescope that we first realized the universe is accelerating. The output of light from a Type 1a is always the same, and so we can use it to determine absolute magnitude and distance, and by taking pictures over several days and weeks of massive type 1a supernovae, we realized first that the universe is accelerating.

Recall that redshift is just received λ /emitted λ. This ratio is called z. Multiplying z by light speed gives us distance, however this is not as accurate as the directly proportional relationship of distance given by Hubble’s constant.

Once we have H, we can determine age as a function of acceleration of the universe, but we do not need to do that either, we can just extrapolate backwards once we have distance and acceleration, it is H that we are looking for

Hubble’s constant is hotly debated, but based on the present data, the COBE estimates place it around 71km/s/Mpc. Note that we determined this by observing Type 1a supernovae using exactly the simple formula I outlined after calculating the redshift:

v=HD, 1+z=(anow/athen), zc=Ho, and a(t)= L/λ, and H=a2(t)/a1(t). There are multiple ways, as we have seen, to express Hubble’s constant: As functions of velocity, distance, the FLRW metric, and z. As of 2007, all expressive functions of H are in concurrence. It is definitely between 50-90, and precisely where was hotly debated for some time. Now our equipment is very accurate and we have narrowed it down significantly and the best data indicates it is 71.

We need to find q, that is the parameter of acceleration, and in terms of Hubble’s constant, it is:

q=-H^-2((dH/dt)+H^2)

Now, we have known since 1998 that q is a negative value, and this value must be integrated (not figuratively, as in literally integrated mathematically by means of the ∫ operator), and extrapolate from when the commoving horizon was zero, the moment of the Big Bang.

It is useful to know the 71km/s/Mpc value because it allows us our extrapolation. It allows us to calculate useful values like the Hubble length and the Hubble time. The Hubble lengths is a good value to work with, and is simply the c/Hubble Time, where the Hubble Time is 1/H0. These are crude ways to measure the age of the universe, but are helpful if you want to demonstrate the age of the universe using a calculator and a pen and a data table as opposed to a satellite. If Hubble length is c/H(t), where H(t)=1/H, then H(l)=Htc, which is 300,000/71=approximately 4220 Mpc, since we are working in km/s/Mpc. 4220Mpc is converted into light years by the fact that 1 Megaparsec is 3,262,000 light years, from which we derive: 1.37x10^10 light years or 13.7 billion ly.

Hubble Time is also useful as a rough estimate of the universe's age. The Hubble Time is a useful function of the recessional velocity, where if v=HD, then 1/H=d/v. Since it is a reciprocal, we have to reverse all of the units, and so (converting 71km/s/Mpc to 20km/s/Mly makes it easier), we have to reverse everything, so we end up with 10^6 light years per megalight year, and 9.5x10^12 km per light year, which can be demonstrated like this:

1 Light Second= 300,000km, one light year=3x10^5 x 60 x 60x 24 x 365=9.5x10^12km

The reason we need to add the 10^6 is because the second reciprocal has been changed to km/ly as opposed to km/Mly. This just makes it a lot easier. And since the H constant is in seconds, we need to express the function in seconds. One year contains 3.15x10^7 seconds Now:

1/20x10^6x9.5x10^12x 1/3.15x10^7, which becomes roughly 1.45x10^10 years, or 14.5 billion years. As you can see, this is a crude method, but is good for quick calculation.

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Kingdom9 wrote: There is a

Kingdom9 wrote:
There is a very simple answer to the so called speed of light problem. According to the Bible God created Adam the first man. Was Adam a baby when God created him? No. Adam was a fully formed man. God bypassed the time it would have taken Adam to reach full maturity and created him that way.

In the same way when God made the stars they were immediatley visible on earth. God bypassed the time it would have taken for the light to travel these huge distances.

Cool, what's your evidence for this?

Kingdom9 wrote:
Now to say that the universe was always here you are going to have huge problems.

Since no one subscribes to a Steady State model, your point is moot.

Kingdom9 wrote:
[mootness snipped] Something interesting to think about is the fact that the earth is a perfect distance from the sun to sustain life. The sun could not have formed it had to have been created.

What luck, my coffee is the perfect shape for my mug.


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Kingdom9 wrote: There is a

Kingdom9 wrote:

There is a very simple answer to the so called speed of light problem. According to the Bible God created Adam the first man. Was Adam a baby when God created him? No. Adam was a fully formed man. God bypassed the time it would have taken Adam to reach full maturity and created him that way.

In the same way when God made the stars they were immediatley visible on earth. God bypassed the time it would have taken for the light to travel these huge distances.

Now to say that the universe was always here you are going to have huge problems. Why are the galaxies still spiral shapped if the universe was always here? Galaxies slowly loose their spiral shape over time. Why are there still comets? What are the planets in our solar system still warm? Would they not have cooled down over time? There are many other facts of nature that show that the universe had a beginning.

Something interesting to think about is the fact that the earth is a perfect distance from the sun to sustain life. The sun could not have formed it had to have been created.

Dude, you are so out of your league here.  No offense, but if anyof the big brain, science freaks here decide to engage you in debate you will be totally humiliated and your arguments taken apart and thrown in your face. 

Your ridiculous assertions are like throwing chum into shark infested waters. Good luck if they decide to attack you....it won't be pretty.

 


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Please think before you

Please think before you post, Kingdom9. Atheists don't need to say this universe is eternal. They could very well say there is an eternal metaverse or spacefoam from which our cosmos originated or that it resulted from an eleven-dimensional membrane collision or spawned from a blackhole in a prior universe or provide some other explanation. The problem with your argument is that you assume there was no materiality or physicality before the origination of our cosmos.

Furthermore, your light-speed argument is ad hoc and silly. You're interpreting a creation story that talks about the world being encapsulated by a dome as hard as a cast metal mirror so it can hold back the waters that fill the primeval universe in which there was a talking snake as meaning the world isn't encapsulated by a dome as hard as a cast metal mirror and there are no waters that it's holding back and the ancient goat herders that wrote the story knew it was nothing but a void trillions and trillions of miles across in which Yahweh strung photons about the void like Christmas lights. Do you not realize how retarded you sound?

Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!


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Thank you for your logical

Thank you for your logical analysis of my argument. I appreciate it. I want iron-clad arguments. Thank you!

Yes, I am not very schooled yet in the sciences and presenting physical evidence for things. But I believe I have the truth regarding God, the beginnging, the future, after death, Jesus, and other things which I think you could benefit from.

Do you think you could simplify your arguments for me. Thanks.

Without faith it is impossible to please God for he who comes to God must believe that He exists (Hebrews 11:6).

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I


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Kingdom9 wrote:

Kingdom9 wrote:

There is a very simple answer to the so called speed of light problem. According to the Bible God created Adam the first man. Was Adam a baby when God created him? No. Adam was a fully formed man. God bypassed the time it would have taken Adam to reach full maturity and created him that way.

In the same way when God made the stars they were immediatley visible on earth. God bypassed the time it would have taken for the light to travel these huge distances.

Now to say that the universe was always here you are going to have huge problems. Why are the galaxies still spiral shapped if the universe was always here? Galaxies slowly loose their spiral shape over time. Why are there still comets? What are the planets in our solar system still warm? Would they not have cooled down over time? There are many other facts of nature that show that the universe had a beginning.

Something interesting to think about is the fact that the earth is a perfect distance from the sun to sustain life. The sun could not have formed it had to have been created.

Oh My Fucking God !!!

What else is there to say ?

Who said that the universe as always been there ? I didn't !

Galaxies acquire there spiral shape over time not the opposite, please know what you are talking about before saying stupid things like that.

The universe AS cooled down over time... From 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 degrees to 3 degrees kelvin (it's cold as fucking hell now (bad analogy, I know lol)). This is why the big bang is also known as the hot big bang. And for the record, planets are cooling down to. Mars had a warn center before, but it is cold and solid now, the same will happen to the earth.

Only planets that are at a right distance from their star can arbor life (not completely true, but let's not get into details). No fucking wonder we are no exception to that, nothing unbelievable there.

I'm not even going to bother about the amazingly stupid argument you pulled off about "the light speed problem". Are you serious ?

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Kingdom9, I'm not able to

Kingdom9,

I'm not able to answer your more recent questions about the origin of the universe as a whole.  But I do at least have some admittedly brief answers to the three questions you asked when you started this thread.  (As an aside, if I have misunderstood your questions, please don't hesitate to correct me.)  Here we go:

 

1. Are there any facts in nature which would contradict this account of creation?

  My $0.02 to Q.1.: Let's see...radiocarbon dating; evolution; human anatomy, esp. the sacrum and coccyx; the light speed problem (N.B., re: this problem: your solution makes God into either an immature prankster, or an outright liar...continuing on...); also, as others have pointed out, the "lesser light to rule the night," better known as the Moon, does not actually generate light, it only reflects the light of the Sun; the fact that the Bible has "day" and "night" existing without either a Sun to generate light, and thus, "day" or an earth to rotate so as to produce "night;" the "firmament" concept, which understands the sky as a kind of "bowl" with "gates"--the gates opening to allow the "waters above" to fall as rain--this is a problem because the sky is *not* a bowl, does not have gates, and there are no "waters above;" the distinguishing between "trees" and "plants," when trees *are* plants; the fossil record showing that birds came *after* crawling creatures (I'm assuming that the Bible here refers to reptiles and amphibians,) and not before, as the Bible says; and the evidence in favor of carnivorous animals having always existed in spite of the Bible's implication that animals were once all vegetarians (after all, God had given them "every green plant for food," this doesn't say anything about giving them each other for food.)  Come to think of it, I would *expect* that there are some species--that, sadly, I don't know enough to name--which live off of fungi...and God didn't say anything about giving fungi to other lifeforms to eat.

 

Q. 2.: Are there any contradictions in the first chapters of the Book of Genesis?

 

My $0.02 to Q.2.: I think others have pointed out that the order of creation is not the same in both chapter one and chapter two.  I won't belabor this.

 

Q.3.: Do you believe this is the way the universe came into existence? Why?

 

My $0.02 to Q.3.: Uh...you *do* know...don't you...that most folks here are atheists?  To answer your question directly...no, I don't.  My reason is simple: I used to be a believer in Christianity, I investigated it deeply, expecting to be able to prove it to the world...and, well...here I am...as an atheist...so it should be pretty obvious how that went.

 

Conor

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"Faith does not fear reason."--Pope Pius XII

"But it should!"--Me


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deludedgod

deludedgod wrote:

1/20x10^6x9.5x10^12x 1/3.15x10^7, which becomes roughly 1.45x10^10 years, or 14.5 billion years. As you can see, this is a crude method, but is good for quick calculation.

LMAOF

This is only a wild guess, but I think you are overestimating your opponent deludedgod.

 

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Kingdom9 wrote:

Kingdom9 wrote:

There is a very simple answer to the so called speed of light problem.

There is no speed of light problem. There is a bible problem.

Kingdom9 wrote:

According to the Bible God created Adam the first man.

Without proof that the bible is trustworthy, it is of no concern what the bible accords.

Kingdom9 wrote:

In the same way when God made the stars they were immediatley visible on earth. God bypassed the time it would have taken for the light to travel these huge distances.

This is what happens when one decides in advance (illogically) that the bible must be true; one then has to fabricate all sorts of circuitous explanations to defend his unfounded belief. Deludedgod called you out on this already - it's ad hoc.

Kingdom9 wrote:

Now to say that the universe was always here you are going to have huge problems.

Commensurately, to say that god was always here (not that you explicitly have ... yet) you are going to have HUGER problems.

Kingdom9 wrote:

Why are the galaxies still spiral shapped if the universe was always here? Galaxies slowly loose their spiral shape over time.

The matter & energy which comprises the universe may have always been here; that doesn't mean galaxies were always here. Think a little.

Kingdom9 wrote:
Why are there still comets?

Why wouldn't there be? Do you know how comets (or galaxies, for that matter) form?

Kingdom9 wrote:

Something interesting to think about is the fact that the earth is a perfect distance from the sun to sustain life. The sun could not have formed it had to have been created.

If, as you freely admit, you are "not very schooled yet in the sciences and presenting physical evidence for things", you probably shouldn't try to "present physical evidence for things".

Kingdom9 wrote:

Thank you for your logical analysis of my argument. I appreciate it. I want iron-clad arguments. Thank you!

You got one from deludedgod. And honestly his essay isfar more interesting and inspiring than the genesis chapters you coppasted.

Kingdom9 wrote:

Yes, I am not very schooled yet in the sciences and presenting physical evidence for things. But I believe I have the truth regarding God, the beginnging, the future, after death, Jesus, and other things which I think you could benefit from.

We gathered you already believe you have "the truth". Which is why you will spurn any science which assails that "truth".

Kingdom9 wrote:

Do you think you could simplify your arguments for me. Thanks.

I'd be happy to simplify the argument:

The bible is bullshit. Science works. The end.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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Quote: The bible is

Quote:
The bible is bullshit. Science works. The end.

But... But...

The Bible says that it's the word of God ! And in the Bible God says that the Bible is his word ! There is no escape ! It gotta be true don't you think !

OUTCH  !!! My heads hurts for thinking to much, is that blood coming out of my nose ?

Please God, don't make me think again.........

mmmmmm........ d o n u t s !

 

 

 

 

Si Dieu existe, c'est Son problème !
If God exists, it's His problem !--Graffiti on the walls of the Sorbonne (France), May 1968
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Thanks for today's mythology

Thanks for today's mythology lesson.


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Here is a fun-fact:   Did

Here is a fun-fact:

 

Did you know the first verse, no, the very first WORD in the bible is translated wrong?

 

The first word in Genesis 1:1 is in Hebrew "Beresjit". This is actually "In A beginning" and not in THE beginning, for than it should have been "Baresjit".

 

However, when they made the Greek translation (3rd century BCE) they translated in THE beginning. However there is something to say for the beginning over a beginning, since the vocals were added in the 7th century CE, so the translators of the Greek version of Genesis only saw BRSJT...

 

Ergo: nobody has even the slightest clue if it's supposed to be in THE beginning or in A beginning.

I think that there aren't many christians informed on this.


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   yeah Paddy the

   yeah Paddy the second ,  god again has spoken Smile


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Thanks for the compliment,

Thanks for the compliment, but I humbly reject the title "god" Sticking out tongue


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Visual_Paradox wrote: As

Visual_Paradox wrote:


As for your question, "Is [sic] there any facts in nature that would contradict this account of creation?" Yes. In Hebrew, one would write "yom" ("day&quotEye-wink alongside a preposition if one were being allegorical and one would avoid using a preposition alongside it if one were being literal so we know the author in Genesis was being literal (source).

 What is a literal day, anyway? 

Thermal Time Hypothesis 

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 Paddy the

 Paddy the second replies, " Thanks for the compliment, but I humbly reject the title "god" "

(I said that the 'Paddy' god speaks again )

~ Now why is that Paddy ? Me the Quantum ONE is curious .... You ain't god ?, How so ???  Laughing 


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Well, I didn't create any

Well, I didn't create any world in 6 days Sticking out tongue


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   Okay Paddy , I

   Okay Paddy , I get ya now !

 Hey, Would you be a horny girl interested in an old fart by any chance ? I'm really hurting for a girl squeeze  Tongue out  I would share my chicken soup with ya.

You are a girl aren't ya ? My nose ain't what it use to be , but it still works, I think ???

 Wolves have long noses ! Okay, almost senile, but not completely ???  Laughing 

 


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Eloise wrote: What is a

Eloise wrote:
What is a literal day, anyway?

 24 Hours.


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  umm Eloise, she smells

  umm Eloise, she smells nice. She IS nice, seriously. Hellow again Australian princess.

I just can't help it, Girls and god , wow  Laughing 

Come to my church, 'The Nitty Gritty", where we get down and dirty, in the search of Truth. We are the creator and the creation. All is One, infinate and eternal. Feel the inner peace now ? , let it come into you , Ye are Gods ! Relax , we own this place ....