Prayers, Morals, Hitler, and Napoleon? - YOU RESPOND

darth_josh
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Prayers, Morals, Hitler, and Napoleon? - YOU RESPOND

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rational Response Squad" <jkadl36@hotmail.com>
To: <sapient@rationalresponders.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: [Defend my God!] I Will Pray For You

Jeffrey Kadlec sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

Dear Web Site producers,

I will most certainly pray for you. I am sorry that you have undertaken this endeavor, and wish that you would not lead others to a path of destruction.

Let me ask you a few questions.

All humans believe that to kill, lie, steal, cheat on one's spouse, and other sins, are wrong. Where does this come from? Where does the guilt come from? To believe that "society" created it is just silly. Every society holds these same truths; every human has a heart that resists these things. Where would this come from?

Second, if you extend atheism (no God, and t/f no controlling force) to its logical ends, then you must be anarchists as well. Do you believe that no laws are good for society? Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

Third, if God does not exist, can you explain why history always turns out right? Why was Napolean, one of the greatest military minds ever, convinced that he could enter Russia & win...in the middle of winter!?
Why was the invading force of the English, SOOO much more powerful
than the colonists, defeated? Why did the North defeat the South, with the knowledge that defending a territory is easier than invading it? Why did Hitler, who was a military genius (insane, DEFINITELY, but knew how to conduct a war & incite people by using the carnal nature) suddenly decide to stop bombing Britain, even though the British were just DAYS away from surrendering?

Finally, I love you all, just as Jesus loves me. I will pray for you and
that your message will not reach any other people.

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Susan
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*Sigh* Yet another "Shut up

*Sigh*

Yet another "Shut up you Atheists!" message.

As for the "history always turns out right" statement, obviously this person never heard of the Holocaust.

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deludedgod
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Im not going to respond in

Im not going to respond in full to this because it is ridiculous. If I might just make a single point about your very poor grasp of history.

Why did Hitler, who was a military genius (insane, DEFINITELY, but knew how to conduct a war & incite people by using the carnal nature) suddenly decide to stop bombing Britain, even though the British were just DAYS away from surrendering?

Hitler was a military idiot. He let his generals handle the war. They were the genius men: Guderian, Model, Seydlitz and Paulus. When Hitler intervened with their wishes, like at Smolensk or at the Stalingrad flank, the results were a disaster.

By the summer of 1941 Europe lay crushed beneath the Nazi jackboot. For the past two years the German armies have rained terror upon the continent. First to fall in 1939 is Poland, then Demark, then Belgium, then France, then Holland, then Greece, Albania, the Balkans and Luxembourg. Having crushed the combined might of every country in Europe, Hitler turned his greedy eyes to Britain. In a series of air battles designed to eliminate the RAF in preparation for an amphibious invasion, the Luftwaffe were handed their first defeat, and Britain, on the brink of collapse, was saved for another day. The German air assault had failed very obviously. The British were not “days away from surrendering”. We owe everything to their tenacity and superior Spitfire and Hurricane, not to God. In fury, Hitler turned to a bigger prize, his ally the Soviet Union, a race he had always held in contempt as sub-human.

History always turns out right??? Oh really. Ever heard of the Holocaust? What about all the murderous bloodshed inspired by religion? The Spanish Inquisition? 9/11? The Witch Hunts? And before you say that these pale to what was done by the atheist communist regimes, that is a logical fallacy, because even if there was shown to be causality between atheism and communist tyranny, which there is not, the communist nations had appalling, religious-style personality cult dictatorship. They essentially worshipped their leaders and held them to be demigods. In China, people bowed to Mao's portrait daily, the same in Russia, and as for North KOrea, they may have created the most extravagant and appalling personality cult ever. It is the only nation where the official leader (Kim-Il Sung, Jong Ill's father) is dead. Why have the position for life when you can hold it for all eternity? To me, this is just as religious as any church or mosque, and as far from athiesm as anyone can get.

Secondly, atheism does in no way have any correlation with anarchy. I don't know how deluded you are to construe that because we don't believe in God, we don't believe in organized social law. Have you ever studied anthropology? Evolutionary genetics? Altruistic neurology? You don't have the first clue what you are talking about. The only thing atheism "can be extended to it's logical ends is that we also understand that religion and theism have absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever, and they paint the above concept as some kind of violent, murderous sentient, anthropomorphic entity which enjoys hurling "souls" (another nonexistent concept) into a place that is apparently outside space and time called "hell" unless you follow a "holy book" which was evidently beamed into the heads of man by this sentient creator, thereby causing many of them to kill each other over concepts that they made up, saying numerous ridiculous things like that embryogenesis is formed from a blood clot (Qur’an) and the first man and woman were two Caucasians who lived in a garden 6000 years ago (OT).

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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To_the_Glory_of_God
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Re: Sigh

Dear Susan,

 

First, I want to say that I did not want to join this site, but hope that I could be a positive force for you and others.

 

Second, when in my message did I say "athiests shut up"?  I believe that people are entitled to any opinion they wish.  It would be my hope that your opinion would conform to the Truth, but that is up to God's work in your life.

Third, the holocaust was absolutely AWFUL!  It was one of the worst moments in human history.  But, what came of it?  The rebirth of Isreal.  In the Bible, it is predicted that Isreal would return; this was in the Old Testament, in the book of Daniel.  Hundreds of years BEFORE Christ came to earth.

Now, to show how amazing this truly is, let us look at history.  Has there EVER been a society on the planet that existed without a home nation?  No.  The Romans died out.  The original Egyptians died out.  The Mongolians died out.  But the Jews...the Jews survived almost 2,000 years without a home.  

All to the glory of God. 


To_the_Glory_of_God
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Re: Accurate History

Sir, you might not know your history very well.  England's railroads were all but decimated.  A few more days of bombings by the Germans, and England would not have been able to deliver supplies, and t/f would have surrendered.  Yes, the RAF did an amazing job, but only Hitler letting up stopped the English from surrendering.  Please research this.

To answer the holocaust, please look at my previous response.

As for bloodshed inspired by religion.  It is typically inspired by false religion, or man going too far.  The inquisition came out of the crusades.  You see, the religion of Islam (a false religion that DOES teach hatred) had a holy war (yes, they started it!...the history books & media don't tell u that one) in Europe against Christianity.  The crusades rightly defended Europe...and then went too far.  Thus, a good thing quickly turned bad b/c man is fallen and our nature is carnal.

9/11 was caused by a false religion...Islam.

 Witch hunts were caused by man...not religion.  Christianity is a religion where the followers are to convert others through correct arguments, and the assisting help of God.  Hatred, anger, and violence have no place in true, Biblical Christianity.

Did I claim that communism was born from atheism?  No.

Oh, you just brought up evolution.  That's FUN!!!  I just cracked my knuckles with glee!!!

1) Science, today, right now, in this day & age, states that there is no way for inanimate matter to create life.  Oh, yeah, except for that one time....lol!!!

2) Did you know that there is no known trigger for evolution?  There is nothing on any known genetic code to make a creature become another creature.  

3) Did you know that the only POSSIBLE way for evolution to happen is for mutation to occur.  So, several things would have to happen.

a) The mutation would need to be beneficial.  Mutations are almost always NOT beneficial.

b) The same exact mutation would have to happen at the exact same time to at least 50 creatures for a new type of creature to develop.

c) The new creature would need to be strong enough to fight off any possible attack.

4) Explain plants.  What happened?  Do animals & plants have a common ancestor?  Or, did plants come from a second set of primordial goo?  Please see Point 1.

5) Why are there ABSOLUTELY NO evidences of the intermediate beings between each type of animal?

6) If we all come from the same matter, why is it that genetic codes between species are so incredibly different that they cannot reproduce?

7) Explain DNA.  DNA creates RNA.  RNA, in turn, creates more DNA.  You can't have one without the other.  Where did RNA come from?

Cool Where did the egg come from, if that started the chicken?   If not, where did the chicken come from?

9) Explain organs.  Heck, explain anything BEYOND a single celled organism.  Pick the most basic animal with organs.  Let's say an insect (you can pick whatever you like).  If all organs do not exist, then the animal cannot live.  So, the organs had to develop all at once...otherwise, the animal would not have had time to reproduce & t/f make the organs over time.

10) Heck, explain single celled organisms.  Did you know that the rudder (I forget the scientific name) of single-cell organims are made up of something like 47 parts.  And, if any one of them was missing, it would not work.  So, they all had to appear at the same time.  Again, no time for "gradual change".

I, by the way, used to be an agnostic...with leanings toward atheism.  I knew evolution backwards & forwards, but never was asked the above questions...and MANY MANY others.  Here's one for you.

 Lastly, the typical solution to decide what is the correct answer is which answer leaves the least questions.  My answer has one question: Where did God come from?

 Your answer has all of the above, as well as the following:

1) Where did the matter come from to cause the Big Bang?

2) What sparked the Big Bang?

3) How did such condensed matter create the entire universe?

4) Did you know that the speed of light is actually DECREASING?  You didn't?  Google it!!!

God Bless You all! 


To_the_Glory_of_God
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General Question

Why has no one attacked my conscience argument?


deludedgod
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The fact that you have

The fact that you have raised evolution is probably a bad move on your part. I am a biologist who has researched evolution for years. I suggest you read the discussion started by the essay I wrote called The fundamental axioms of evolution. It is a recent forum thread. you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and thus you are exactly the type of person that essay is directed at. I also suggest you read the discussion that followed it, which contains useful information. You clearly know nothing about RNA polymerization, transcriptive functions, speciative divergence, endosymbiosis, prokaryotic intron/exon shift, mutation function, karyotype, common descent, genetic conservation, amino acid function or anything else that anyone who wants to comment on evolution should know about.

You said you knew evolution backwards and forwards. Well then, why do you ask such ridiculous, easily refutable questions (refer to the essay and comments), and why do you not understand the above concepts? 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Quote: 1) Science, today,

Quote:
1) Science, today, right now, in this day & age, states that there is no way for inanimate matter to create life.  Oh, yeah, except for that one time....lol!!!

Science states nothing, hypotheisis and theories state....lol!!! 

Quote:
2) Did you know that there is no known trigger for evolution?

Why would there be a trigger for evolution? 

Quote:
b) The same exact mutation would have to happen at the exact same time to at least 50 creatures for a new type of creature to develop.

Ummm... what? Can I have the weed you are smoking? I wanna see the pretty colors of god too. 

Quote:
c) The new creature would need to be strong enough to fight off any possible attack.

If it's parents (Which would be the same species as he) were strong enough, then he/she should be. but then maybe not (that's why there are lots of offspring). 

Quote:
8) Where did the egg come from, if that started the chicken?   If not, where did the chicken come from?

From an egg, which came from a chicken, which came from an egg of a chicken from chicken...... etc.... from a chicken like creature from an egg of a chicken like creature from an egg of a chicken like creature. 



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God Bless You all!
 

May thoth bless you too... I think?

*checks it over with thoth* 

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MrRage
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I'm so tired of hearing

I'm so tired of hearing about Hitler.


Brian37
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darth_josh wrote: -----

darth_josh wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rational Response Squad" <jkadl36@hotmail.com>
To: <sapient@rationalresponders.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:23 PM
Subject: [Defend my God!] I Will Pray For You

Jeffrey Kadlec sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

Dear Web Site producers,

I will most certainly pray for you. I am sorry that you have undertaken this endeavor, and wish that you would not lead others to a path of destruction.

Let me ask you a few questions.

All humans believe that to kill, lie, steal, cheat on one's spouse, and other sins, are wrong. Where does this come from? Where does the guilt come from? To believe that "society" created it is just silly. Every society holds these same truths; every human has a heart that resists these things. Where would this come from?

Second, if you extend atheism (no God, and t/f no controlling force) to its logical ends, then you must be anarchists as well. Do you believe that no laws are good for society? Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

Third, if God does not exist, can you explain why history always turns out right? Why was Napolean, one of the greatest military minds ever, convinced that he could enter Russia & win...in the middle of winter!?
Why was the invading force of the English, SOOO much more powerful
than the colonists, defeated? Why did the North defeat the South, with the knowledge that defending a territory is easier than invading it? Why did Hitler, who was a military genius (insane, DEFINITELY, but knew how to conduct a war & incite people by using the carnal nature) suddenly decide to stop bombing Britain, even though the British were just DAYS away from surrendering?

Finally, I love you all, just as Jesus loves me. I will pray for you and
that your message will not reach any other people.

You dont love us otherwise you'd debate us and not preach. So many stereotypes in one post.

You obviously have a thick skull. So let me point out some facts you are painfully ignoring.

1. The United States Constitution give us the right to speak out. If it were not there we would not be allowed to say the things we do. We value freedom as much as any Christian. But that same constitution says nothing about non-Christian citizens having to take a back seat to Christians.

2. Your revisionist history is a load of puritanical garbage. Here are some quotes you probibly never heard.

THOMAS JEFFERSON

Quote:
"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear"

BARBARY TREATY(AKA) TREATY OF TRIPOLY ARTICAL 11

Quote:
Articall 11...."As the goverment of the United States is not ,in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

Our goverment is OURS, not yours. The constitution does not force me to swear alligance to Jesus. It also demands that "No religious test" be applied for any government oath.

We have Jews and now even a Muslim surving in OUR congress. We still have laws, there are not orgies on the street. Atheists value the rule of law as well and you have baught a bullcrap stereotype.

Stop listening to your preacher trying to scare you into fearing us. If you "love us" and are not a cheerleader like we suspect do the American thing and debate us. Americans debate, theocrats dictate. We dont need your lectures or preaching. If you think we are wrong, prove it. But we are not going to let people like you get away with making us look like monsters.

I am an American. I value our Constituton. But people like you insist on selfish rose colored dogmatic goggles when you view it. It is a neutral templet for use by all citizens. It was writtent by people not Jesus or Allah or Zues. I am glad you had no hand in writing our Constitution and I am glad the founders understood the concept of goverment neutrality on the issue of religion.

Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Japanese and Chinese American citizens, if you read this you can be part of our goverment. If you read this our constitution does not demand that you submit to Christians. You can be part of our political free market of ideas. WE THE PEOPLE is more than just Christians.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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deludedgod
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Sir

Sir

Your historical conclusions seem to me little more than a Liebniz-esque "we live the best of all possible worlds" fallacy. You are clearly ignoring the fact that for every miraculously good event that shaped history for the better, there are ten horrifying, unnecessary events that occured and set humanity back significantly. Attributing historical good luck to the guiding hand of god is probably the most remarkable fallacy I have ever encountered.

Just another error, Hitler did not attempt Barbarossa "in the middle of winter". The operation went into effect on June 22nd, which was a delay due to the Balkans invasion. He expected to be in Moscow long before the winter came. This is a grevious error which you really should have edited out.

Third, the holocaust was absolutely AWFUL!  It was one of the worst moments in human history.  But, what came of it?  The rebirth of Isreal.  In the Bible, it is predicted that Isreal would return; this was in the Old Testament, in the book of Daniel.  Hundreds of years BEFORE Christ came to earth.

Tell that to my grandparents. I am Jewish by blood, and lost everyone in the Holocaust. The fact that you use it to justify a prophecy and construe that as good makes me want to vomit all over the keyboard. If you read the old testament, you will see that God is remarkably vindictive. A murderous, homophobic, racist, genocidal, arrogant physcopath is the way I would put it. It is estimated he (no capitals, he doesnt deserve it) killed 3 million in cataclysms and massacres. So explain to me why such a vindictive character would simply overlook half his chosen people being delivered to the furnace if he seems to take such joy in murdering those who oppose his chosen ones.

Sir, you are morally depraved. 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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To_the_Glory_of_God
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Defenses to Accusations

Well, quite a little thread going here, eh?

 First, nowhere in my e-mail did I state that atheists are not allowed in the US.  Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions.  However, I believe that search for truth should be the utmost of human objectives. I would tell you that I have the truth, and that someone not believing in God does not.

I do not hate any of you.  You might misunderstand love and compassion.  What is a better expression of love?  Telling someone they are going down the wrong road, or not saying it at all?

If atheists do not believe in anarchy, then I would love to know why.  Let me explain.  If you do not believe in God, then you do not believe that humans have a redeemer, which means that humans are not able to get beyond what our bodies allow...there is no glorious rebirth into a new spirit.  T/f, humans are basically bad, or basically good.  If basically bad, then all governments will eventually become tyranny, and there is no God to stop this from happening, or to bring a good end to it.  If humans are basically good, then there is no need for government.  Either way, why would you want a government?

The consequences that people brought upon themselves in the old testament do not make God evil, vindictive, etc.  Instead, they show that God has a level of expectation that humans must meet.  He chose to show His love through the Jewish people (at that time, the Isrealites or Hebrews).  Because God wanted His people to be a shining beacon, He first removed the darkness that previously existed.  People have a natural conscience built-in (by God), and the people that the Isrealites destroyed were not using them.

The holocaust was awful, and I am very sorry for every single person that was hurt, killed, or emotionally damaged by it.  Hitler was an insane, evil man (I guess the basically good theory is out the window?).  But, would you not say that having Isreal returned is good?  Would you not say that the Jewish people having their own country is good?

Also, would you not say it is beyond amazing that the Jewish culture survived almost 2,000yrs w/out a home of their own?  The Babylonians are no more; as well as the other examples. 

In terms of me preaching, not debating.  Um, isn't this string a debate?  It seems to me much more likely that you might want Christians to just shut up so that you can spout your hatred toward us.  Yes, there are many examples of bad Christians...but there are many more examples of excellent Christians.  They don't get as much press, unfortunately.

Would you provide a link to your discussion page about how evolution can be "proven" to be "true"?  It would be interesting to see how you get around the whole inanimate object becoming life.  I would assume that you don't discuss that, but I could be wrong.

I hope that it is noticed that I have not lashed out in anger at any of you.  I speak in plain truth, and hope that it is well received. 

Why has no one argued the conscience thing?

By the way...and this one's really good!  God told Abraham (the father of Jewish religion) that He would have descendants that number more than the stars.  At that time in history, it did not seem so impressive, since they only thought there were a few thousand stars...at most.  However, it is amazing to note that there are BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of stars.  It is also interesting to note that in the New Testament it is stated that all true believing Christians are descendants of Abraham.  Again, God's knowledge of the universe will always surpass our own.

Oh, by the way...why haven't we seen evolution occur throughout the course of human history?  Two explanations are typically given.  One is that humans just aren't observant enough...that's silly given the amount of technonolgy we have today, as well as the anthropologists in the world.  The second is that humans are the ultimate in evolution and therefore evolution stopped.  If humans are the ultimate in evolution, how would it know?  Wouldn't there need to be some sort of intelligence?  But, there can't be, unless life was designed by God.


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To_the_Glory_of_God

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:

Well, quite a little thread going here, eh?

First, nowhere in my e-mail did I state that atheists are not allowed in the US. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, I believe that search for truth should be the utmost of human objectives. I would tell you that I have the truth, and that someone not believing in God does not.

I do not hate any of you. You might misunderstand love and compassion. What is a better expression of love? Telling someone they are going down the wrong road, or not saying it at all?

If atheists do not believe in anarchy, then I would love to know why. Let me explain. If you do not believe in God, then you do not believe that humans have a redeemer, which means that humans are not able to get beyond what our bodies allow...there is no glorious rebirth into a new spirit. T/f, humans are basically bad, or basically good. If basically bad, then all governments will eventually become tyranny, and there is no God to stop this from happening, or to bring a good end to it. If humans are basically good, then there is no need for government. Either way, why would you want a government?

The consequences that people brought upon themselves in the old testament do not make God evil, vindictive, etc. Instead, they show that God has a level of expectation that humans must meet. He chose to show His love through the Jewish people (at that time, the Isrealites or Hebrews). Because God wanted His people to be a shining beacon, He first removed the darkness that previously existed. People have a natural conscience built-in (by God), and the people that the Isrealites destroyed were not using them.

The holocaust was awful, and I am very sorry for every single person that was hurt, killed, or emotionally damaged by it. Hitler was an insane, evil man (I guess the basically good theory is out the window?). But, would you not say that having Isreal returned is good? Would you not say that the Jewish people having their own country is good?

Also, would you not say it is beyond amazing that the Jewish culture survived almost 2,000yrs w/out a home of their own? The Babylonians are no more; as well as the other examples.

In terms of me preaching, not debating. Um, isn't this string a debate? It seems to me much more likely that you might want Christians to just shut up so that you can spout your hatred toward us. Yes, there are many examples of bad Christians...but there are many more examples of excellent Christians. They don't get as much press, unfortunately.

Would you provide a link to your discussion page about how evolution can be "proven" to be "true"? It would be interesting to see how you get around the whole inanimate object becoming life. I would assume that you don't discuss that, but I could be wrong.

I hope that it is noticed that I have not lashed out in anger at any of you. I speak in plain truth, and hope that it is well received.

Why has no one argued the conscience thing?

By the way...and this one's really good! God told Abraham (the father of Jewish religion) that He would have descendants that number more than the stars. At that time in history, it did not seem so impressive, since they only thought there were a few thousand stars...at most. However, it is amazing to note that there are BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of stars. It is also interesting to note that in the New Testament it is stated that all true believing Christians are descendants of Abraham. Again, God's knowledge of the universe will always surpass our own.

Oh, by the way...why haven't we seen evolution occur throughout the course of human history? Two explanations are typically given. One is that humans just aren't observant enough...that's silly given the amount of technonolgy we have today, as well as the anthropologists in the world. The second is that humans are the ultimate in evolution and therefore evolution stopped. If humans are the ultimate in evolution, how would it know? Wouldn't there need to be some sort of intelligence? But, there can't be, unless life was designed by God.

Taking some of your points in reverse:

Evolution has been seen occurring throughout human history. You forgot the third explanation - theists aren't looking for it. I'll let those more knoledgable than I take it from there

"God's intelligence surpasses our own" or man takes a statement from the Bible and adjusts it to fit his needs. My money's on the latter.

Life coming from non-life has nothing to do with evolution. Don't bring in a strawman argument and expect us to concede when you knock it down.

Saying that the Holocaust was God's will becasuse the Jewish homeland came later makes God out to be a real bastard and you reprehensible. The Jewish people stuck together because organized human societies then to be cohesive units. Sky Daddy didn't have anything to do with it.

On your conscience argument - was there one? I think I lost it in all the "You can't have morals or a government if there is no god" stuff

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Jeffrey Kadlec wrote: I am

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
I am sorry that you have undertaken this endeavor, and wish that you would not lead others to a path of destruction.

What you call destruction, we call enlightment.

Quote:
All humans believe that to kill, lie, steal, cheat on one's spouse, and other sins, are wrong. Where does this come from? Where does the guilt come from? To believe that "society" created it is just silly. Every society holds these same truths; every human has a heart that resists these things. Where would this come from?

Humans are social animals and they form societies. Humans have noticed along the way what actions are detrimental to societies and what are not. Killing and stealing makes the society unsafe and unsecure for its populations. This would result the abandonment of the society, while favouring the societies that punish killing and stealing.

Lying and cheating ones spouse are not universally punished. There are situations where lying is actually the "moral" thing to do (eg. trying to cover someone from another). The ethics of infidelity is mostly dictated by the society (there are societies encouraging polygamy).

Quote:
Do you believe that no laws are good for society? Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

I do not believe that a good society has no laws. Laws bring safety and stability.

I am an atheist, therefore I do not believe in any gods. Hence I do not consider humans to be "images of god" or laws and governments being established by gods. I think that deities are unfit to guide morals and laws of non-deities and their societies. Deities do not share the same limitations that humans and therefore the ethics of deities cannot be applied to the ethics of humans.

Quote:
Third, if God does not exist, can you explain why history always turns out right?

History has turned out just like it has turned out. There is no "right" or "wrong" way how the history goes.

Quote:
Finally, I love you all, just as Jesus loves me.

So...you don't love us? Jesus is dead, died about 2000 years ago, he isn't loving anybody anymore.


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Why haven't we seen

Why haven't we seen evolution through human history?

a) We have. We can see bacteria all the time. Because of their fundamental structure, they evolve on a sped-up scale compared to the Eukaryotes. The mutagen that killed 18 million during the influenza is evolution, the mutations of avian flu are evolution. VRE is evolution (that would be Vancomycin resistent entrococci) etc. We can also see Eukaryotic life evolve more simply, for instance, rats have become larger, their immune system better able to deal with our poison etc

b) Evolution takes millions of years. We have only had advanced civilization for 10,000 years, and we've only known about evolution for 100 years. It might as well be 100 seconds.

This is the essay

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/yellow_number_five/evolution_of_life/4880?page=2

Just a quick warning. This discussion got very biochemically technical very quickly. Be prepared to slog through a lot of debate on things like endogenous insertion and protein folding mechanisms.

Lastly 

He would have descendants that number more than the stars.

Firstly, there are actually about six sextillion known stars, meaning your error (billions) is off by a factor of one trillion. Secondly, your assertion is ridiculous. If the every Christian was the descendant of Abraham, then there would only be a few million Christians because Abraham lived during the time of the Old Testament. Humans have only had 80,000 generations over the last 2 million years.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Quote:Second, if you

Quote:
Second, if you extend atheism (no God, and t/f no controlling force) to its logical ends, then you must be anarchists as well. Do you believe that no laws are good for society? Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

I don't get it, why is it that when someone rejects Christianity they are instantly rabid, heathen nihilists? People created laws and the government, although leaders (including Napoleon) have used religion to control the masses, the lawmaking process is not a concept derived from theism.


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To_the_Glory_of_God

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:

Dear Susan,

First, I want to say that I did not want to join this site, but hope that I could be a positive force for you and others.

You didn't want to, yet you did. You initiated contact with us, not the other way around.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
Second, when in my message did I say "athiests shut up"?

I quote from your original contact form message:

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
and that your message will not reach any other people.

I don't see how this could be miscontrued as anything other than "Atheists Shut Up."

Do you think that everyone's faith is so weak that it can't stand to hear a differing opinion?

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
I believe that people are entitled to any opinion they wish. It would be my hope that your opinion would conform to the Truth

So we're allowed to have any opinion we wish as long as we don't tell anyone? (See comment above) However, you are allowed to spread your opinion? Example: You contacted us

The truth of what? The word "truth" is not a proper noun and doesn't get capitalized.

You are espousing the opinion that your god exists, please provide proof. And no, bible quotes don't count.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
Third, the holocaust was absolutely AWFUL!......(etc)

See deludedgod's post above. That pretty much covers it.

 

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To_the_Glory_of_God

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:

1) Science, today, right now, in this day & age, states that there is no way for inanimate matter to create life. Oh, yeah, except for that one time....lol!!!

Or that time when a certan savior came back to life or made others do the same.

Abiogenic theories are at least based on things that actually exist. Theories, like RNA clays, while not demonstrably proven, are NOT supernatual. 

Quote:
2) Did you know that there is no known trigger for evolution? There is nothing on any known genetic code to make a creature become another creature.

I have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to see examples of speciation, go to my evo and science forums. 

Quote:
3) Did you know that the only POSSIBLE way for evolution to happen is for mutation to occur. So, several things would have to happen.

Holy shit, things have to happen? Several, no less! lol 

Quote:
a) The mutation would need to be beneficial. Mutations are almost always NOT beneficial.

Almost being the opperative word. 

Quote:
b) The same exact mutation would have to happen at the exact same time to at least 50 creatures for a new type of creature to develop.

Your source for this is? How do 50 organisms have to mutate to make a single new species? You're talking out of your ass. 

Quote:
c) The new creature would need to be strong enough to fight off any possible attack.

Like Wolverine! 

Quote:
4) Explain plants. What happened? Do animals & plants have a common ancestor? Or, did plants come from a second set of primordial goo? Please see Point 1.

Yes, animals and plants DO have a common ancestor, and as a point of fact, true plants came AFTER animals. 

Quote:
5) Why are there ABSOLUTELY NO evidences of the intermediate beings between each type of animal?

Only idiots or the ignorant mantain such. Do a bit of research. 

Quote:
6) If we all come from the same matter, why is it that genetic codes between species are so incredibly different that they cannot reproduce?

They aren't. Care to talk about ligers, donkeys, crosses between dogs and hyenas, etc? Understand taxonomy and what it implies before making ridiculous statements. 

Quote:
7) Explain DNA. DNA creates RNA. RNA, in turn, creates more DNA. You can't have one without the other. Where did RNA come from?

Amino acids. 

Quote:
8) Where did the egg come from, if that started the chicken? If not, where did the chicken come from?

Are you serious? 

Quote:
9) Explain organs. Heck, explain anything BEYOND a single celled organism. Pick the most basic animal with organs. Let's say an insect (you can pick whatever you like). If all organs do not exist, then the animal cannot live. So, the organs had to develop all at once...otherwise, the animal would not have had time to reproduce & t/f make the organs over time.
An insect is CERTAINLY not the most basic creature you could point out. If you really want me to get into how multicelluarity is thought to have arived I will.

Quote:
10) Heck, explain single celled organisms. Did you know that the rudder (I forget the scientific name) of single-cell organims are made up of something like 47 parts. And, if any one of them was missing, it would not work. So, they all had to appear at the same time. Again, no time for "gradual change".

It's a flaggellate, you twit. How can you dare criticize biology when you don't even know that? You are talking about the ridiculous concept of irreducible complexity, and I'm happy to destroy this for you as well. Just say the word. i have a feeling you won't post again though. 

Quote:
I, by the way, used to be an agnostic...with leanings toward atheism. I knew evolution backwards & forwards, but never was asked the above questions...and MANY MANY others. Here's one for you.

 You knew evolution back and forward, but cannot recall "flaggellate"? lol

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. 

Quote:
Lastly, the typical solution to decide what is the correct answer is which answer leaves the least questions. My answer has one question: Where did God come from?

Magic? 

Quote:
Your answer has all of the above, as well as the following:

1) Where did the matter come from to cause the Big Bang?

Why do you assume it came from anywhere? The first law of thermodynamics shows us no creation ex nihlo is required. 

Quote:
2) What sparked the Big Bang?

We don't know, so what? 

Quote:
3) How did such condensed matter create the entire universe?

You have it backward - how did such condensed plama create the universe.

Simple answer - as expansion occured energy condensed to matter, coalesced, formed stars under their own gravity, stars made heavy elements, exploded as they went nova, ejected matter into space, made more stars, heavier elements made planets.

Or you could say it was magic. 

Quote:
4) Did you know that the speed of light is actually DECREASING? You didn't? Google it!!!

Do you know you're an idiot?

Google that.

Speed of light does NOT change, except on creationist websites. 

Quote:
God Bless You all!

Fuck you too. 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Thank you Yellow. This guy

DELETE REPEATED POST

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Thank you Yellow. This guy

DELETE REPEATED POST

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Thank you Yellow. This guy

Thank you Yellow. This guy is an embarassment. The cell's "rudder" (obviously the flagellete) Transitive fossils? Mutation synchronicity? What drugs is he smoking? He has not the first clue about evolution.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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God Is King

1) On the topic of God "planning" the holocaust.  That is incorrect.  I apologize to you for not correctly explaining myself.  God, in His infinite power and wisdom, is able to take even the worst things of human history and turn them for good.  Through God's providence (not plan), He was able to bring about the re-creation of Isreal.

2) So bringing up the pri-mordial ooze is putting up a scarecrow that has nothing to do with evolution?  Your faith states that life was brought about from inanimate objects; the origin of life is pivotal to evolution.  How do u have evolution w/out life in the first place?

3) I read the first part of the "lesson" on evolution.  It was a wonderful example of micro-evolution (aka adaptation).  But did nothing to explain how a monkey becomes a human; or how a single celled organism eventually becomes an insect.

4) I am not only a creationist, but also a young-earther.  T/f, I would tell you that the millions of years needed to have your evolution faith actually happen doesn't exist.

5) I did not specifically intend for my original e-mail to be posted as a bulletin.  I wrote an e-mail out of concern, due to a story that I read.  It was intended for the producers of this web site.  Someone decided to post it as a bulletin; and an e-mail was sent to me inviting me to defend my points.  I have done that.

 6) 50 organisms are needed in order for a new type of species to take hold & continue on.

7) I would LOVE to be "destroyed" b/c I don't have a full comprehension of everything about biology.  I would also love to know how you get around your very own worldy theories that there is only so much energy; that it cannot be created or destroyed.  So, how are stars created?  Where is the energy taken from?  Is it magic?

Cool Yes, RECENT science has decided that speed of light is no longer changing.  HAH!  Current science is a bunch of crap.  Instead of developing a theory & testing it; and then possibly changing the theory....what actually happens is the theory is created; if information does not conform to the theory, it is eliminted.  The media works together quite well with this.

Want proof of how current science & the media work together to keep the masses deluded and ignorant?  Embryonic Stem Cell Research vs Adult Stem Cell Research.  Let's call them ESC & ASC for this paragraph.  ESC has SUCCESSFULLY made Parkinson's worse...wow!  ASC has cured blindness; reduced the effects of diabetes; cured paralysis; and many other wonderful things.  There are many articles to prove this, which you can find at: http://www.stemcellresearch.org/

Yet, all u hear about is the POTENTIAL of ESC, and nothing about the successes of ASC.  Boy, science sure is right & just when it completely overlooks what is viable & instead goes for what destroys human life.  If science & the media lie about this, what else do they lie about?

Why is it that giving feels better than receiving?  What could have hard-wired this into our genetic code?

Why is it that humans feel this emotion called love when other animals do not have this same emotion?

How could evolution be right when humans exist?  SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST!?  Okay...so humans have the following problems:

- We have some of the worst eyes in creation

- We have a very poor sense of smell

- We have a very well developed sense of pain.

- We are rather weak in comparison to other animals.

- Our teeth are not well-suited for death through biting.

- Our arms/hands/legs are not well-suited for killing animals.

- We are not really all that fast; humans are actually pretty darn slow in comparison to other creatures.

So, men are fit to live with all of these flaws?  We're smart...GREAT!  So, after we get killed, we can figure out how to make sure that doesn't happen again.  Oh, wait, that's right, we have but one life on earth.  Darn!

 And, u should be familiar w/religion & faith.  There are so many things that you cannot explain about evolution, yet you believe in it.  That is faith.  You have set up a system of belief about how things came about.  That is religion.  Your problem is not with faith & religion; your problems are with God.

I am sorry for whatever some uncaring Christian did to you.  I truly am.  Please know that we are not all calloused and uncaring; many of us do truly walk by faith, following Jesus & the leadings of God.  I would hope that you would, too.

God Bless You All. 


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just to quickly touch the

just to quickly touch the first part of your post, are you saying god had no idea that the holocaust would happen? im sure all powerful god would be able to stop this. if he didnt know it would happen then he is not god.


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To_the_Glory_of_God

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:

4) I am not only a creationist, but also a young-earther. T/f, I would tell you that the millions of years needed to have your evolution faith actually happen doesn't exist.

 

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


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Jeffrey Kadlec wrote: I

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
I will most certainly pray for you.

If you really want to waste your time praying for me/us then go right ahead. I'll fortunately be accomplishing things while you waste your time.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
I am sorry that you have undertaken this endeavor, and wish that you would not lead others to a path of destruction.

The problem is that theism is what's leading others to a path of destruction. We're leading them away from it. So be happy! Smiling

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Let me ask you a few questions.

Sure.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
All humans believe that to kill, lie, steal, cheat on one's spouse, and other sins, are wrong.

This is not true. Many humans believe that it's ok to kill, lie, steal, cheat, or do what you describe as "other sins".

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Where does this come from?

Since it doesn't exist, it cannot come from anything. Sorry.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Where does the guilt come from?

Guilt is an emotion. It's part of the function of your brain when you do something you think is wrong. It doesn't apply to doing things you don't think are wrong however.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
To believe that "society" created it is just silly.

Of course. Society didn't create emotion.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Every society holds these same truths; every human has a heart that resists these things. Where would this come from?

This is also false. There are many societies that do not share your moral views.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Second, if you extend atheism (no God, and t/f no controlling force) to its logical ends, then you must be anarchists as well.

With three false claims in a row, I'm going to just start calling it what it is: An unsupported lie.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Do you believe that no laws are good for society?

No I don't.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

We weren't created in the image of a god. We evolved over billions of years. And the bible is just a book compiled of stories written by men. It should be placed in the "fairy tale" section of every library.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Third, if God does not exist, can you explain why history always turns out right? Why was Napolean, one of the greatest military minds ever, convinced that he could enter Russia & win...in the middle of winter!?

Because he didn't accurately predict the actions and intentions of his enemies. He failed to consider a number of factors, some of which he may not have been aware of. I'd have to ask him to know for certain, but he was the first guy to try it. Someone always has to be first.

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Why was the invading force of the English, SOOO much more powerful than the colonists, defeated? Why did the North defeat the South, with the knowledge that defending a territory is easier than invading it?

I'd have to study the tactical history of the war to give you a definate answer, but I'd assume that's where the answer lies. How did your god affect the outcome without anyone realizing it anyway?

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Why did Hitler, who was a military genius (insane, DEFINITELY, but knew how to conduct a war & incite people by using the carnal nature) suddenly decide to stop bombing Britain, even though the British were just DAYS away from surrendering?

Why did the Americans drop two atomic bombs on Japan even though the Japanese were just DAYS away from surrendering?

Jeffrey Kadlec wrote:
Finally, I love you all, just as Jesus loves me. I will pray for you and that your message will not reach any other people.

That's nice.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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I wouldn't even waste time

I wouldn't even waste time talking to a young Earth Creationist. Might as well be talking to someone strapped down screaming "BLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs in a mental hospital. There is no rationality whatsoever  in such a person.

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Quote: can you explain why

Quote:
can you explain why history always turns out right?

What? Right? What the hell do you mean by right? What do you mean always turns out?

Do you have sometime machine and have been trying to change the past or something?

Was 9/11 right? The london bombings? The bombings in madrid?

Oklahoma city bombing? Was that right? 

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on the issue mentioned above

on the issue mentioned above about england invading the US during the American Revolution, alot of it had to do with the british war tactics. The way they battled was based on horrible techniques. They would march in with straight lines, never could i possibly imagine them doing any sort of stealth mission back then. Plus the addition of their bright red jackets. Some of it was luck, but the revolutionary war wasn't a miracle.


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to the glory of god.

to the glory of god.

I told you to read the whole discussion on that thread. It contains all the answers to your question. INCLUDING human evolution from primates. Why make a comment before reading the whole thing?

you are a young-earther? You must be insane! In that case, As a scientist, I dont bother with academic abomonations like yourself. Ever heard of radiocarbon dating? Isochrons? Spectroscopy? even if we disregard ALL of this, what proof is there that the earth is 6000 years old? Young earth creationism is the most idiotic scientific cop out in history. You, sir, have clearly revealed you have no understand of biology when you made your statements regarding mutation and cell biology (the cell's rudder? what the fuck)

Now you have just told me that not only that, you also dont understand half-life, alpha,beta, or gamma radiation, isochrons, refraction, spectroscopic methods, gas concetration shifts, ice core analysis or anything else to do with basic physics. You have no understanding of science, so you might as well not comment on anything scientific. if you are a young earther, it clearly shows you are incredibly closed minded because you do not accept the massive amount of painstakingly gathered scientific evidence for the age of the earth and universe.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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To_the_Glory_of_God

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:

1) On the topic of God "planning" the holocaust. That is incorrect. I apologize to you for not correctly explaining myself. God, in His infinite power and wisdom, is able to take even the worst things of human history and turn them for good. Through God's providence (not plan), He was able to bring about the re-creation of Isreal.

How CAN'T you see the silver lining in a tsunami that kill 250,000 people? 

Quote:
2) So bringing up the pri-mordial ooze is putting up a scarecrow that has nothing to do with evolution? Your faith states that life was brought about from inanimate objects; the origin of life is pivotal to evolution. How do u have evolution w/out life in the first place?

How do you have matter-energy withou the first law? 

Quote:
3) I read the first part of the "lesson" on evolution. It was a wonderful example of micro-evolution (aka adaptation). But did nothing to explain how a monkey becomes a human; or how a single celled organism eventually becomes an insect.

Thus, once more, showing your utter ignorance of evolution. Can you walk 1,000 miles one step at a time? 

Quote:
4) I am not only a creationist, but also a young-earther. T/f, I would tell you that the millions of years needed to have your evolution faith actually happen doesn't exist.

IOW, You're not only ignorant, but lucky you can feed yourself without poking yourself in the eye.

Quote:
5) I did not specifically intend for my original e-mail to be posted as a bulletin. I wrote an e-mail out of concern, due to a story that I read. It was intended for the producers of this web site. Someone decided to post it as a bulletin; and an e-mail was sent to me inviting me to defend my points. I have done that.

And you've had your ass handed to you.  

Quote:
6) 50 organisms are needed in order for a new type of species to take hold & continue on.

I still have no fucking idea what you are saying here. Are you claiming 50 is the minimum viable breeding population? 

You'd not only be wrong on biological grounds, but wrong according to your own Bible.  

Quote:
7) I would LOVE to be "destroyed" b/c I don't have a full comprehension of everything about biology. I would also love to know how you get around your very own worldy theories that there is only so much energy; that it cannot be created or destroyed. So, how are stars created? Where is the energy taken from? Is it magic?

Stars are created by gravity. An first year astronomy student knows that. That matter-energy cannot be created nor destroyed is the first law of thermodynamics. Feel free to disprove it when you get the chance, but EVERY observation EVER made supports this fundamental property of the universe. Deal with it. 

Quote:
8) Yes, RECENT science has decided that speed of light is no longer changing.

Science never said it was a variable property, twit.

Quote:
HAH! Current science is a bunch of crap. Instead of developing a theory & testing it; and then possibly changing the theory....what actually happens is the theory is created; if information does not conform to the theory, it is eliminted. The media works together quite well with this.

Thus showing your ignorance of the scientific method and your projection of the flaws of your own belief system onto what you think others maintain. 

Quote:
Want proof of how current science & the media work together to keep the masses deluded and ignorant? Embryonic Stem Cell Research vs Adult Stem Cell Research. Let's call them ESC & ASC for this paragraph. ESC has SUCCESSFULLY made Parkinson's worse...wow!

HOW? How has embyronic stem cell research hurt people? You're not only ignorant, you're a liar.

Quote:
ASC has cured blindness; reduced the effects of diabetes; cured paralysis; and many other wonderful things. There are many articles to prove this, which you can find at: http://www.stemcellresearch.org/
Utter propaganda, but  even IF true, this means we should not use embryonic cells, because....?

Quote:
Yet, all u hear about is the POTENTIAL of ESC, and nothing about the successes of ASC. Boy, science sure is right & just when it completely overlooks what is viable & instead goes for what destroys human life. If science & the media lie about this, what else do they lie about?

That's like faulting Einstein for looking into physics when the Newtonian modle was making do. 

Quote:
Why is it that giving feels better than receiving? What could have hard-wired this into our genetic code?

Yes, it's called empathy. It's manifest in things like kin selectin and reciprocal alturism. 

Quote:
Why is it that humans feel this emotion called love when other animals do not have this same emotion?

Animals DO feel something like our emotional attachments. Prairie volls and beavers for example mate for life. The hormoes they excrete, like oxytocin, during coupling are EXACTLY the same hormoes excreted by humans after sex. Love is, for the most part, biochemical - that doesn't make it any less special.

Quote:
How could evolution be right when humans exist?

When people like YOU exist, I question the intelligence of  the "design" myself.

Quote:
SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST!? Okay...so humans have the following problems:

- We have some of the worst eyes in creation

- We have a very poor sense of smell

- We have a very well developed sense of pain.

- We are rather weak in comparison to other animals.

- Our teeth are not well-suited for death through biting.

- Our arms/hands/legs are not well-suited for killing animals.

- We are not really all that fast; humans are actually pretty darn slow in comparison to other creatures.

So, men are fit to live with all of these flaws? We're smart...GREAT! So, after we get killed, we can figure out how to make sure that doesn't happen again. Oh, wait, that's right, we have but one life on earth. Darn!

Wow. I've not seen such stupidity in a long time. Evolution has NO goal or purpose, the ONLY consideration is survival. Humans have what it takes to survive. If we were CREATED - our flaws would be due to our CREATOR. If we evolved, and lacking we have is a trade off or a fact that is NOT (or rather WAS not) contingent on our survival.  

Quote:
And, u should be familiar w/religion & faith. There are so many things that you cannot explain about evolution, yet you believe in it. That is faith. You have set up a system of belief about how things came about. That is religion. Your problem is not with faith & religion; your problems are with God.

There are so many things about gravity we don't understand, but we don't entertain the possibility that we'll all go flying off into space tomorrow. Your understanding of science is a strawman, asinine, insulting no less. You haven't a clue as to how the inductive process works.

Quote:
I am sorry for whatever some uncaring Christian did to you. I truly am. Please know that we are not all calloused and uncaring;

I hope they are not all idiots as well, like yourself.

Quote:
many of us do truly walk by faith, following Jesus & the leadings of God. I would hope that you would, too.

God Bless You All.

Fuck you too.

 

You miss the point that most of us are Apostates.

You are honestly the MOST clueless individual that I've encountered since we started this board, and that is saying an awful lot. 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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I tried yellow. I tried.

I tried yellow. I tried. From my point of veiw, I just cannot understand why someone would be so blind. this may well be the most clueless idiot ever to spout garbage on this board...and as you said, that is saying alot. But people like this have built walls to sheild themselves from science and reason. They are insane.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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To say that I am

To say that I am close-minded or insane does not seem to be accurate.  Yes, I have a laymen's understanding of biology/geology.  However, I have read many books on the subject...both by Christians & non-Christians.  Based upon the evidence presented, I have decided that the evidence that agrees with the Biblical record is more convincing and more accurate.  You have decided that any evidence or arguments that do not agree with you are insane or close-minded.  Is that the Rational Response you speak of?

Yes, it is certainly true that several posters have more information than I.  However, information abounds about incorrect information everywhere.  You can find books that claim that the Civil War was fought primarily over slavery; you can find books that state that America's intentions in every war were always good; you can find books that state that the world was not aware of any of the Holocaust.  All are wrong...but the information exists.

To support ESC (to use the former abbreviations) is to support bad science.  The statement given was that supporting ASC is the same as supporting only Newton when Einstein came along.  Your analogy is not only mis-applied, it is completely backwards.

First, Newton's theories were not killing any human life.

Second, ASC came along SECOND.  In fact, until scientists were able to find a way to make ASC's change to other types of cells, it was believed that ASC was a useless endeavor.  Newer science, and newer ways of doing things (which you say that you support) allowed scientists the ability to do ASC.

Third, Newton's theories could not explain many things.  T/f, relativity came along.  The reverse is true in this case.  ESC could do nothing, and has "potential", but no results (other than making sicknesses worse); ASC has results, and has helped people.

Additionally, your statement about ESC shows one of the major flaws of the evolutionary theory.  You believe that human life is not precious (and, yes, ESC's are fertilized human embryos [which is a redundant statement, but the redundancy I felt was necessary]).  Otherwise you would be against ESC, b/c it is human life.

So, if human life is the result of evolution, this would mean that some human life is more worthy to live than other human life.  Based upon this, your only problem with Hitler would be that he killed the wrong people.  As an evolutionist, you must believe that there is some race that is superior to the others (some race that is further developed & more evolved & more "fit" to be in the world).  So, if some race is better than others, and you do not find human life to be precious, why wouldn't you advocate the murder of all non-superior humans?  After all, since humans determine the course of the world, wouldn't you want the lesser ones out of the way? 

And, I'll make the joke for you.  You want me to be the first to be put on the block.

As for God "not knowing" the holocaust would happen.  I apologize for not correctly spelling out every word.  The world is fallen due to the sin of man.  This is the cause of all ill in the world.  However, to His glory, God does bring about good even from the worst of events.  He shows His glory by allowing man to be sinful, yet still having some sort of good event come out of it.  There is no event that will upset the will of God; and even the sin of man God can use to create some good.  

I assume that some of you have friends, family, and people you care for.  Some of you may even be married (uh oh, that's a religiously inspired institution!).   Why?  You have no belief in hope upon death.  Why not just live life on drugs, having constant sexual partners but no permanent partner?  If it is all for naught, and you have children, isn't that incredibly cruel to the child?  You're just going to bring about a child into a world where they will just die & eventually (most likely) not be remembered?  Why would you choose to live with no hope for the future?

You have no hope...you have no future.  You have only death, in your own mind.  Why do anything but live for constant pleasure? 


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so he shows his glory by

so he shows his glory by allowing hitler to torture jews? youre not denying that god would have not known the holocaust would happen and that he couldve not let it happen.


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Since you seem to be unable

Since you seem to be unable or unwilling to respond to my first post, I'll push ahead to others.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  Yes, I have a laymen's understanding of biology/geology.  However, I have read many books on the subject...both by Christians & non-Christians.  Based upon the evidence presented, I have decided that the evidence that agrees with the Biblical record is more convincing and more accurate.

What evidence? There is no evidence.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  You have decided that any evidence or arguments that do not agree with you are insane or close-minded.  Is that the Rational Response you speak of?

WHAT EVIDENCE? And while an argument may be good enough some day, there has yet to be a theist to form it.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
Yes, it is certainly true that several posters have more information than I.  However, information abounds about incorrect information everywhere.  You can find books that claim that the Civil War was fought primarily over slavery; you can find books that state that America's intentions in every war were always good; you can find books that state that the world was not aware of any of the Holocaust.  All are wrong...but the information exists.

And you can find the bible. Which is also wrong. The beauty of science is that if it's wrong, it can't stay. Science is testable. If gravity didn't exist we would know it by testing it.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:

To support ESC (to use the former abbreviations) is to support bad science.

You are placing moral value on a system that operates without morality. You are using bad logic.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  The statement given was that supporting ASC is the same as supporting only Newton when Einstein came along.  Your analogy is not only mis-applied, it is completely backwards. First, Newton's theories were not killing any human life. Second, ASC came along SECOND.  In fact, until scientists were able to find a way to make ASC's change to other types of cells, it was believed that ASC was a useless endeavor.  Newer science, and newer ways of doing things (which you say that you support) allowed scientists the ability to do ASC.

Third, Newton's theories could not explain many things.  T/f, relativity came along.  The reverse is true in this case.  ESC could do nothing, and has "potential", but no results (other than making sicknesses worse); ASC has results, and has helped people. Additionally, your statement about ESC shows one of the major flaws of the evolutionary theory.  You believe that human life is not precious (and, yes, ESC's are fertilized human embryos [which is a redundant statement, but the redundancy I felt was necessary]).  Otherwise you would be against ESC, b/c it is human life. So, if human life is the result of evolution, this would mean that some human life is more worthy to live than other human life.  Based upon this, your only problem with Hitler would be that he killed the wrong people.  As an evolutionist, you must believe that there is some race that is superior to the others (some race that is further developed & more evolved & more "fit" to be in the world).  So, if some race is better than others, and you do not find human life to be precious, why wouldn't you advocate the murder of all non-superior humans?  After all, since humans determine the course of the world, wouldn't you want the lesser ones out of the way?  And, I'll make the joke for you.  You want me to be the first to be put on the block.

This has got to be one of the longest strawman fallacies I've seen yet.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
As for God "not knowing" the holocaust would happen.  I apologize for not correctly spelling out every word.  The world is fallen due to the sin of man.

Which is gods fault, if god exists and created man.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  This is the cause of all ill in the world.  However, to His glory, God does bring about good even from the worst of events.  He shows His glory by allowing man to be sinful, yet still having some sort of good event come out of it.

Instead of making us sinful and making good come from bad, he should have made us unsinful to begin with. Would have left out a lot of hassle.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  There is no event that will upset the will of God; and even the sin of man God can use to create some good. I assume that some of you have friends, family, and people you care for.  Some of you may even be married (uh oh, that's a religiously inspired institution!).   Why?

Why not?

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  You have no belief in hope upon death.  Why not just live life on drugs, having constant sexual partners but no permanent partner?

Why?

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  If it is all for naught, and you have children, isn't that incredibly cruel to the child?

Just because there is no inherent reason for being beyond being does not mean one is incapable of finding a reason to be.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  You're just going to bring about a child into a world where they will just die & eventually (most likely) not be remembered?

Sure they will. They'll have kids, then they'll have kids, then they'll have kids, then a few thousand years down the road civilization might actually be a nice place to be.

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
  Why would you choose to live with no hope for the future?

What are you talking about? Why would I end my one and only life simply because I think there could be problems down the road?

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:
You have no hope...you have no future.  You have only death, in your own mind.  Why do anything but live for constant pleasure? 

What's wrong with living to live? What's wrong with experiencing and learning as much as you can in the short time you have? Why do you think one must live in the gutter if one doesn't believe in a false god?

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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To the Glory of God:

To the Glory of God:

You evidently do not have a layman's understanding of any science, or you would not be able to explain the following:

Large atoms with concentrated, crowded nuclei are highly unstable. To correct the instability, they will either

a) Release a highly ionizing but low energy particle consisting of a helium nucleus with two protons and neutrons. This is called alpha radiation.

b) If the nucleon number is isotopically unstable, the atom will change a proton into a neutron or vice versa allowing an electron to be released or a positron depending on beta minus versus positive.

For instance, a carbon-14 isotope. 99.999% of all carbon is stable carbon-12. but carbon-14 isotopes are not stable and make up 1ppt (part per trillion) of all carbon. They release beta radiation to correct the nucleon instability by firing off an electron. This causes it to decay into Nitrogen-14. The great thing about radioactive decay is that it is a random process that obeys probability laws. The other good thing about it is that you can dip a radioactive material in molten lead, in acid, shoot it, burn it, fire particles at it, try to irradiate it again, pass a current through it...and none of these things will change the isotope clocks. They are fixed.

Now let me explain how we (real scientists who know what they are talking about) use this to measure the age of the Earth and organic material. Radioactive half-life is the amount of time it takes for the Geiger counter count rate (CPS) to fall by half. Radioactivity is a Zeno's paradox, because it falls to 1/2 then 1/4 then 1/8, but never to 0. It takes the same amount of time to fall from full to half as from half to quarter because the probability remains the same, because radioactive decay is an elemental nuclear cycle.

Depending on their isotopic properties, different isotopes and elements decay at different rates. Uranium 235 has a half life of 4500 million years...almost exactly the age of the Earth. Certian Thorium isotopes, and Polonium 221 for example, half in hours to seconds.

All life is made out of carbon, and all life is made out of roughly the same percentage of carbon-14, which is 1ppt (part per trillion). So if we examine a dead plant by giving it a radiocarbon test, and we find the count rate has reduced to 1/8, it means that the plant is 18,000 years old roughly, because C-14 has a half life of 6000 years (actually about 5300 years).

If you dont like Carbon 14 dating, there are over 20 types of radioisotope dating, including Pb-Ur, Ar-Ar, K-Ar etc etc. Some of which can date back millions and billions of years because the isotope is more stable.

To prove that the Earth is 6000 years old, you would need to find some rocks in ancient geological striation, perhaps among the dinosaurs, and test them using multiple isotope tests, which should give you a dating of between 3000 and 10,000 years if you are right.

So, good luck with that

Also, your comment about associating atheism with nihlism and depression is pathetic. Are you telling me that the human race is so pathetic they need to attack teleological significance to their existence? Are you telling me we are so immoral we need to make up a deity to tell us what to do? Are you telling me the only reason you don't shoot drugs and act with promiscuity...is because you are afraid of god?? In that case, you are not really moral at all, you are just a suck-up. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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The Second Law of

The Second Law of Thermodynamics:

Any isolated system free to do so will always pass from a more ordered state to a less ordered state until it eventually reaches and remains in the state of maximum possible disorder, which is the state of thermal equilibrium. 

So your own scientific arguments argue against evolution.  If everything decays to a point of disorder, how does evolution come to be?  Wouldn't we START with humans, and then move backwards?

Please explain the Grand Canyon.  The Colorado River would have had to have run up-hill at some point; and run up-hill for many, many, many years.  That's impressive!   So, not only does water run up-hill, but it does it w/out God!!!  How, exactly?

The moon is currently 384,000km from the earth, and moving away at a rate of 3.8cm per year.   If the moon started at ground 0 (on the earth) then it could not be more than 101 million years old.  Odd, given that the earth is supposedly several billion years old, and the moon is supposed to be roughly the same age.  Hmmmm.

And, to take you down an interesting rabbit whole.  Let's say that evolution were true.  Then, if you were to look at it critically, you couldn't believe it anyway!  Why?  Simple...if our brains were formed by chance, then "reason" as we understand it might be totally wrong!  It could very well be, if evolution were true, that all human reason & understanding is in contradiction to reality.  How, after all, can a random formation of atoms possibly prove that they are not random?  Of course, by this theory, you could not believe that you COULD look at it critically, b/c your brain was created randomly; and so the problem continues on & on & on.  

I know that I speak the truth, and apologize that I have failed in many areas to fully convince you of your folly.  There are many others much more qualified than I. 

 


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To_the_Glory_of_God

To_the_Glory_of_God wrote:

The Second Law of Thermodynamics:

Any isolated system free to do so will always pass from a more ordered state to a less ordered state until it eventually reaches and remains in the state of maximum possible disorder, which is the state of thermal equilibrium. 

So your own scientific arguments argue against evolution. 

The earth isn't an isolated system. Entropy cannot be the overriding force. So your own argument destroys itself. I'll skip past anything else regarding this as your argument.

newmodeltheist wrote:
The moon is currently 384,000km from the earth, and moving away at a rate of 3.8cm per year.   If the moon started at ground 0 (on the earth) then it could not be more than 101 million years old.  Odd, given that the earth is supposedly several billion years old, and the moon is supposed to be roughly the same age.

This shows a lack of understanding of the gravitational forces involved as well as cumulative effects. The moon has not always moved away at a rate of 3.8cm per year, and will not always move away at that rate. The rate varies as the forces shift.

newmodeltheist wrote:
And, to take you down an interesting rabbit whole.  Let's say that evolution were true.  Then, if you were to look at it critically, you couldn't believe it anyway!  Why?  Simple...if our brains were formed by chance, then "reason" as we understand it might be totally wrong!  It could very well be, if evolution were true, that all human reason & understanding is in contradiction to reality.  How, after all, can a random formation of atoms possibly prove that they are not random?  Of course, by this theory, you could not believe that you COULD look at it critically, b/c your brain was created randomly; and so the problem continues on & on & on.  I know that I speak the truth, and apologize that I have failed in many areas to fully convince you of your folly.  There are many others much more qualified than I. 

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'd tear this section apart myself, but I'm running low on time and I'm sure todangst will fly past in not too long. If not, maybe tomorrow.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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To the glory of god

To the glory of god

I noticed you conveniently ignored my post about radiometric dating, as well as numerous others presenting you with contradictory evidence. typical. Cherry picking your science.

And as I am telling you for the third time. Read the whole essay and discussion on my evolution thread, which contains the answer, and refutes the ridiculous argument from thermodynamics.

you also ignored my statements which refuted your ridiculous association of atheism and nihlism 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Quote: All humans believe

Quote:
All humans believe that to kill, lie, steal, cheat on one's spouse, and other sins, are wrong. Where does this come from? Where does the guilt come from? To believe that "society" created it is just silly. Every society holds these same truths; every human has a heart that resists these things. Where would this come from?

 

Where else? It comes from us. A natural sense of empathy and compassion are extremly beneficial for the survival of a species. We know that these things were developed by our own minds because they are not static; what we held as a system of ethics 200 hundred years ago is not nessecarily what we hold today. If our natural sense of empathy was something given to us by an intelligent third party, then our system of ethics would be static and we would not have a system of ethical evolution.

Quote:
Second, if you extend atheism (no God, and t/f no controlling force) to its logical ends, then you must be anarchists as well. Do you believe that no laws are good for society? Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

 

How exactly does no god equal no laws? You may consider a world without theism one of anarchy, but that doesn't make it so.

Quote:
Third, if God does not exist, can you explain why history always turns out right? Why was Napolean, one of the greatest military minds ever, convinced that he could enter Russia & win...in the middle of winter!?
Why was the invading force of the English, SOOO much more powerful
than the colonists, defeated? Why did the North defeat the South, with the knowledge that defending a territory is easier than invading it? Why did Hitler, who was a military genius (insane, DEFINITELY, but knew how to conduct a war & incite people by using the carnal nature) suddenly decide to stop bombing Britain, even though the British were just DAYS away from surrendering?

History always turns out right, huh? All of these historical events you've mentioned; Napolean's campaign across Europe, The American Revolution, The American civil war and especially World War II came to their conclusions after massive casaulties. If history had turned out right, than these events wouldn't be in our history books because they never would have happened. If god's intervention ended the second world war, then why did he wait until six million jews were executed before he made a move? Does he have a habit of procrastination?

 

 

 

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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Dear Web Site producers, I

Dear Web Site producers,

I will most certainly pray for you. I am sorry that you have undertaken this endeavor, and wish that you would not lead others to a path of destruction.

Let me ask you a few questions.

All humans believe that to kill, lie, steal, cheat on one's spouse, and other sins, are wrong. Where does this come from? Where does the guilt come from? To believe that “society“ created it is just silly. Every society holds these same truths; every human has a heart that resists these things. Where would this come from?

To start with, your premise is false. We know of sociopaths who feel no moral obligations to their society, and the lesser moral questions are debatable from person to person. I can think of scientific reasons why a person would lack empathy, and I can well imagine the rococo religious explanations. One side can be supported by evidence, the other not. I can see without reading further yet that you're begging the question, so I'll counter by asking why all professed Christians aren't perfectly moral by even their own standards. You could suggest that they're not “true” Christians, but then if there's no moral guide for humans without the deity, then what's meant to guide all the disparate Christian factions to worship their deity correctly, assuming there is such an interpretation available? If it's so easy to profess to be a true Christian while living in contradiction of its edicts, how is this anything but semantically different from a person living morally but not under threat of unearthly reprisal?

Second, if you extend atheism (no God, and t/f no controlling force) to its logical ends, then you must be anarchists as well.

Wow, that's a disturbing view of government. If you're suggesting the DMV issues vehicle registration notices as an extension of heavenly authority you must be disappointed in the lack of stonings in our daily lives. Not that it ought to need reiteration, but atheism connotes a lack of belief in the traditionally imposed deity, not anarchism. They're two different things, and if you look closely, they're actually spelled differently.

Do you believe that no laws are good for society? Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

Ah, the hefty assumption. Try you argument without it.

Third, if God does not exist, can you explain why history always turns out right?

I know six million people who'd disagree if they could. Not to mention the Native Americans, the Palestinians, the Filipinos. If you mean to say that society eventually tires of its complicity in atrocity and seeks a more peaceful equilibrium because people want to live their lives, I'd call that a motivation. If you want to try to make a religious argument out of it, good luck with that, considering so much of history's worst moments found their justification in holy books.

Why was Napolean, one of the greatest military minds ever, convinced that he could enter Russia & win...in the middle of winter!?
Why was the invading force of the English, SOOO much more powerful
than the colonists, defeated? Why did the North defeat the South, with the knowledge that defending a territory is easier than invading it? Why did Hitler, who was a military genius (insane, DEFINITELY, but knew how to conduct a war & incite people by using the carnal nature) suddenly decide to stop bombing Britain, even though the British were just DAYS away from surrendering?

What argument is this, “Intelligent History?” Why did the atrocities have to happen in the first place? Why would religion be a rationalization for so much bloodshed? Any explanation will undoubtedly resort to a “no true Scotsman” argument, but given your level of rambling I'd love to hear it anyway.

Finally, I love you all, just as Jesus loves me.

That's just super.

I will pray for you and that your message will not reach any other people.

I'd like all our messages to reach people. All the religious messages of the world should reach all the people, for their self-evident derivativeness and vacuity would better inoculate people against faith than I ever could.


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Personal note, reading this

Personal note, reading this guy trying to talk science with Ol’Yeller and deludedgod is like watching mohammed ali having a comeback fight. He must be sharing a cell with Kent Hovind.

 

Yes, this added nothing to an already empty topic, I apologise. Smiling

-----------------------
I'll get back to you when I think of something worthwhile to say.


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Just going to hit a couple

Just going to hit a couple of the ionitial points. 

Quote:

Let me ask you a few questions.

All humans believe that to kill, lie, steal, cheat on one's spouse, and other sins, are wrong. Where does this come from? Where does the guilt come from? To believe that "society" created it is just silly. Every society holds these same truths; every human has a heart that resists these things. Where would this come from?

We don't all think that. Some societies believed in human sacrifice, the death penalty, the glory of battle and the killing of one's enemies, others were more pacifistic in nature. Lying has always been a mixed bag, just about every culture is against it in some cases and for it in others, some going so far as to advocate lies being told to outsiders. Stealing is not something that is universally reviled, either. Some places are more sympathetic to it than others, especially if you're poor. Not all people are fully against adultery, either. Polygamy and polyamoury are found in many places. Remember that French Prime Minister who had his wife and his mistress both attend his funeral?

 

Quote:

Second, if you extend atheism (no God, and t/f no controlling force) to its logical ends, then you must be anarchists as well. Do you believe that no laws are good for society? Could you not possibly make the connection that humans, since we are made in the image of God, have created laws & government b/c God did the same thing through the Bible?

If we extend theism to its logical end, you must be a fascist. See how useless this is? 

 

Quote:
Third, if God does not exist, can you explain why history always turns out right? Why was Napolean, one of the greatest military minds ever, convinced that he could enter Russia & win...in the middle of winter!?
Why was the invading force of the English, SOOO much more powerful
than the colonists, defeated? Why did the North defeat the South, with the knowledge that defending a territory is easier than invading it? Why did Hitler, who was a military genius (insane, DEFINITELY, but knew how to conduct a war & incite people by using the carnal nature) suddenly decide to stop bombing Britain, even though the British were just DAYS away from surrendering?

Why are these things considered right? Because "our side" won, and because empires fall. If our side wins, all is right with the world. If it loses, then things are shitty...until the empire falls. If the empire itself isn't the enemy, but the person in charge, you have less time to wait until things are "right" again. Sometimes, though, it's never "right" again. My people were almost wholly wiped out by white settlers in the americas. I don't think that history will ever be "right" in the eyes of the native americans.

 

Quote:

Finally, I love you all, just as Jesus loves me. I will pray for you and that your message will not reach any other people.

Jesus hates me, or would if he existed, because I don't wish to submit.