"I'll pray for this group.." (YOU RESPOND)

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"I'll pray for this group.." (YOU RESPOND)

YOU RESPOND:

Julianna wrote:
I'll pray for this group.. I didn't know that there were people that really, truly hate God with such a passion that they want others to hate him as well. That's like turning around and stabbing your best friend after he jumped in front of a bullet for you. True Christianity embodies love and understanding- and yes, you might call some Christians "hypocrites" because they don't demonstrate those characteristics, but they are people afterall- people who struggle everyday with the same things you struggle with, but have decided that they can't do it alone and have asked God to help them. I just wanted to let you know that Christianity is not "pyschological torture," and believe me, if it's anybody that should know, it's me. My father is a pastor and the only thing that was torture to him was the desire to succeed and gain worldy desires. The only thing that was ever pyschological torture to me was the desire to feel wanted, do my best in school, have a better body, etc. I was born into a Christian family. I had to go to church every Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday nights (when all my friends would be partying). I never escaped Church because it was in my home, at the dinner table, everywhere. None of my school friends believed in Christianity and I am still always pulled in two different directions- all this and I just turned 16! But I have always known what's really the truth- not because of my parents' belifs, but because overtime, after I explored different religions and believing in nothing at all except having fun, I realized that there really is a God. Of course God isn't just going to come down in human form just to prove himself to you.. why should he do that? I guess that is our job, to show Christian love and I'm so sorry if we have not been doing that well. I guess it's like a teacher who isn't teaching her students well, and the students flunk. I guess you can blame it on us, but don't blame it on God. You will see him one day, and I hope when that day comes he'll welcome you, not turn you away. You might then say, "Well you can't prove him, so he doesn't exist." I can't prove him for you, but you can prove him for yourself. I was always told that if you pray, put down your guard and really pray that he reveals himself to you, then he will. And he really does. I bet your going to read this and go duh this is stupid crap, thousands of people send me this.. but I just wanted to let you know that I'm not a Jesus freak that reads the bible everyday and prays before lunch. I'm the girl that can't get the nerve to pray before lunch in front of my friends, to speak up for my beliefs when somebody says we are descendants of monkeys, to say no to peer pressure.. I'm the girl who people say have everything- great family relationships, a million friends, "looks", talents, good grades, wealth, etc.. but I have never, ever felt fufilled. I only feel fufilled when I'm in the presense of God. God is in my mind all day- telling me what is right and what is wrong. But why is that torture? Why is guidance suddenly evil? The times when I shut him out of my mind is when I do stupid things- like ruin my future by drinking, getting in cars with drunk ppl, falling into the bad habits of the friends around me, etc. I just really, really hope that you realize God is real, heaven and hell is real, it's not a joke. You might say that you cursed God and now you're damned for good, so why should you try to get saved.. But if you truly repent, he will forgive you. You stab him in the back and if you just say sorry, he will turn around and embrace you. If God does that, how can he be so evil? Would your best friend ever do that for you? I know none of mine would never do that for me. Well that's all I have to say. With love, Julianna


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First off, we can hardly

First off, we can hardly hate something that doesn't exist! Second, don't you realise most of us were Christians at one time? 3rd - we'll think for you!

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Voiderest wrote: YOU

Voiderest wrote:
YOU RESPOND:
Julianna wrote:
I'll pray for this group.. I didn't know that there were people that really, truly hate God with such a passion that they want others to hate him as well. That's like turning around and stabbing your best friend after he jumped in front of a bullet for you. True Christianity embodies love and understanding- and yes, you might call some Christians "hypocrites" because they don't demonstrate those characteristics, but they are people afterall- people who struggle everyday with the same things you struggle with, but have decided that they can't do it alone and have asked God to help them. I just wanted to let you know that Christianity is not "pyschological torture," and believe me, if it's anybody that should know, it's me. My father is a pastor and the only thing that was torture to him was the desire to succeed and gain worldy desires. The only thing that was ever pyschological torture to me was the desire to feel wanted, do my best in school, have a better body, etc. I was born into a Christian family. I had to go to church every Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday nights (when all my friends would be partying). I never escaped Church because it was in my home, at the dinner table, everywhere. None of my school friends believed in Christianity and I am still always pulled in two different directions- all this and I just turned 16! But I have always known what's really the truth- not because of my parents' belifs, but because overtime, after I explored different religions and believing in nothing at all except having fun, I realized that there really is a God. Of course God isn't just going to come down in human form just to prove himself to you.. why should he do that? I guess that is our job, to show Christian love and I'm so sorry if we have not been doing that well. I guess it's like a teacher who isn't teaching her students well, and the students flunk. I guess you can blame it on us, but don't blame it on God. You will see him one day, and I hope when that day comes he'll welcome you, not turn you away. You might then say, "Well you can't prove him, so he doesn't exist." I can't prove him for you, but you can prove him for yourself. I was always told that if you pray, put down your guard and really pray that he reveals himself to you, then he will. And he really does. I bet your going to read this and go duh this is stupid crap, thousands of people send me this.. but I just wanted to let you know that I'm not a Jesus freak that reads the bible everyday and prays before lunch. I'm the girl that can't get the nerve to pray before lunch in front of my friends, to speak up for my beliefs when somebody says we are descendants of monkeys, to say no to peer pressure.. I'm the girl who people say have everything- great family relationships, a million friends, "looks", talents, good grades, wealth, etc.. but I have never, ever felt fufilled. I only feel fufilled when I'm in the presense of God. God is in my mind all day- telling me what is right and what is wrong. But why is that torture? Why is guidance suddenly evil? The times when I shut him out of my mind is when I do stupid things- like ruin my future by drinking, getting in cars with drunk ppl, falling into the bad habits of the friends around me, etc. I just really, really hope that you realize God is real, heaven and hell is real, it's not a joke. You might say that you cursed God and now you're damned for good, so why should you try to get saved.. But if you truly repent, he will forgive you. You stab him in the back and if you just say sorry, he will turn around and embrace you. If God does that, how can he be so evil? Would your best friend ever do that for you? I know none of mine would never do that for me. Well that's all I have to say. With love, Julianna

What shows more guts and strength? Someone who is coddled by a crutch? Or someone who overcomes adversity on their own?

If you cant do it alone which one are you?

How can god be so evil?

Your kidding right?

Look, god is no more evil than Harry Potter or The Cat In The Hat. However as a literary character he is a tyrant and reall people follow and defend this fictional tyrant as their hero.

Here is the plot of the bible in 3 parts.

1. Be a good hebrew and no one gets hurt. Oh crap, better killem all and start over with a select few.

2. I'll sacrafice myself, to myself and threaten anybody who doesnt suck up to me with eternal damnation.  But I'll be polite in this section.

3. OH CRAP, being nice about my threats of not sucking up to Jesus(me) isnt working, I'll show thime with a big glorious battle where everyone who didnt suck up to me gets slaughtered and burned forever because they didnt make the choice I wanted them to make.

From a claim of this deity being real, not only is it absurd, it is sick to expect in this day and age to buy a story about a being who has the power of compassion, but over a mere dissagreement will wo out of his way to not just punish you, but torture you forever because you didnt kiss his ass.

It is logically and moraly reprehensable as a claim to expect me to bow to a tyrant. But it is a fictional character, that is why I am unafraid. I am afraid of the followers who buy this claim as fact because they vote and conduct wars in defense of this fiction.

Do not think however that our scrutany of your fiction is limited to your label. If you claimed that you had a invisable lamberginni you went to war for, we'd challenge that absurd claim too.

If you overcome a shortfall in life, and everyone has them. I think it shows more strength to do such without fear of punishment or promise of reward. You do what is right, because it is, not because some person sold you magical fairy tale.

We do not need myth to live our lives. But if you feel that buying myth as fact will prevent you from raping or murdering your neighbor, by all means, please keep your delusion, we dont need more crime in the world. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Julianna wrote: I'll pray

Julianna wrote:
I'll pray for this group.. I didn't know that there were people that really, truly hate God with such a passion that they want others to hate him as well. That's like turning around and stabbing your best friend after he jumped in front of a bullet for you.

We don't hate God, we just don't believe he exists.

Julianna wrote:
True Christianity embodies love and understanding- and yes, you might call some Christians "hypocrites" because they don't demonstrate those characteristics, but they are people afterall- people who struggle everyday with the same things you struggle with, but have decided that they can't do it alone and have asked God to help them.

Some of the bible talks about love. But understanding? I think you need to read the bible a little more.

Julianna wrote:
I just wanted to let you know that Christianity is not "pyschological torture," and believe me, if it's anybody that should know, it's me. My father is a pastor and the only thing that was torture to him was the desire to succeed and gain worldy desires. The only thing that was ever pyschological torture to me was the desire to feel wanted, do my best in school, have a better body, etc.

Maybe not to you, but to some it is. It wasn't really torture to me either. There are a few people on this board who have some emotional scars over it. But, I tell you what emotionally effects me, it's the rejection I get from Christians. I basically have to keep quiet around almost everyone I care about in this life, because they're all Christians.

Julianna wrote:
I was born into a Christian family. I had to go to church every Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday nights (when all my friends would be partying). I never escaped Church because it was in my home, at the dinner table, everywhere. None of my school friends believed in Christianity and I am still always pulled in two different directions- all this and I just turned 16!But I have always known what's really the truth- not because of my parents' belifs, but because overtime, after I explored different religions and believing in nothing at all except having fun, I realized that there really is a God. Of course God isn't just going to come down in human form just to prove himself to you.. why should he do that?

Other religions are just as bogus as Christianity, so that's not convincing. I'd like to know how you came to reallize there's really a God, because it's not at all obvious to most of us.

Julianna wrote:
I guess that is our job, to show Christian love and I'm so sorry if we have not been doing that well. I guess it's like a teacher who isn't teaching her students well, and the students flunk. I guess you can blame it on us, but don't blame it on God.

We're not blaming it on God. We don't believe in him, remember. True, people make mistakes, but there are Christians that behave badly towards those who don't believe because they think the Bible says to do so. And they think that this is "love."

Julianna wrote:
You will see him one day, and I hope when that day comes he'll welcome you, not turn you away.

I doubt we'll see him, or that he's coming. But if the bible is true, he's not going to welcome us. Have you read the bible?

Julianna wrote:
You might then say, "Well you can't prove him, so he doesn't exist."

We'd never say that. That's a logical fallicy. Maybe you should find out what we actually say?

Julianna wrote:
I can't prove him for you, but you can prove him for yourself. I was always told that if you pray, put down your guard and really pray that he reveals himself to you, then he will. And he really does.

He does? Why didn't he do it for me, then?

Julianna wrote:
I bet your going to read this and go duh this is stupid crap, thousands of people send me this.. but I just wanted to let you know that I'm not a Jesus freak that reads the bible everyday and prays before lunch. I'm the girl that can't get the nerve to pray before lunch in front of my friends, to speak up for my beliefs when somebody says we are descendants of monkeys, to say no to peer pressure..

Hmm...ok.

Julianna wrote:
I'm the girl who people say have everything- great family relationships, a million friends, "looks", talents, good grades, wealth, etc.. but I have never, ever felt fufilled. I only feel fufilled when I'm in the presense of God. God is in my mind all day- telling me what is right and what is wrong.

Most people don't feel fulfilled with these things. That doesn't mean that Gods the only other alternative. You don't know how to tell what's right and what's wrong without God telling you?

Julianna wrote:
But why is that torture? Why is guidance suddenly evil? The times when I shut him out of my mind is when I do stupid things- like ruin my future by drinking, getting in cars with drunk ppl, falling into the bad habits of the friends around me, etc.

You're saying you can't make good decisions without some old-man-in-the-sky watching over you?

Julianna wrote:
I just really, really hope that you realize God is real, heaven and hell is real, it's not a joke.

Can you give us reasons for why God exists? I sure hope it's not a joke, because it isn't funny.

Julianna wrote:
You might say that you cursed God and now you're damned for good, so why should you try to get saved.. But if you truly repent, he will forgive you. You stab him in the back and if you just say sorry, he will turn around and embrace you. If God does that, how can he be so evil? Would your best friend ever do that for you? I know none of mine would never do that for me. Well that's all I have to say. With love, Julianna

This is not a matter of repentance, it's a matter of evidence.


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Voiderest wrote: YOU

Voiderest wrote:
YOU RESPOND:
Julianna wrote:
I'll pray for this group..

Do you expect us to say thank you? Save your breath. 

ASK A PRIEST!!!!

I am collecting questions for the next couple of weeks. Do you have a question you'd like to ask a priest? Post it here:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/5959


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We don't hate gawd...

"I didn't know that there were people that really, truly hate God with such a passion that they want others to hate him as well"

If you are implying that atheists hate god, you couldn't be more wrong. We have no emotions for gods because we don't believe in any.

"True Christianity embodies love and understanding- and yes, you might call some Christians "hypocrites" because they don't demonstrate those characteristics, but they are people afterall- people who struggle everyday with the same things you struggle with, but have decided that they can't do it alone and have asked God to help them. "

And remember, no true scotsman put sugar in their porridge. Christianity embodies many other values and beliefs, aside from the advertised 'love' and 'understanding'. Those values and beliefs are sometimes very hateful and almost faschist.

"Of course God isn't just going to come down in human form just to prove himself to you.. why should he do that? I guess that is our job, to show Christian love and I'm so sorry if we have not been doing that well."

So if someone shows you islamic love, that would prove to you that islam is correct? You can show 'christian love' all you want, but the burden of proof does not budge one single inch. By the way, if your only motivation to be nice to others to convert them, your motivation is questionable at best.

"I was always told that if you pray, put down your guard and really pray that he reveals himself to you, then he will. And he really does."

Sneaky tactics. If some people pray and nothing happens, it is because the people praying didn't put their guard down. Meaning that people are told to pray and pray until something happens.

"I only feel fufilled when I'm in the presense of God."

If god is everywhere, then you should be feeling fullfilled all the time. Of course, if you only feel fullfilled in certain locations, could this feeling be triggered by those locations rather than spirits?

"You might say that you cursed God and now you're damned for good, so why should you try to get saved.. But if you truly repent, he will forgive you."

Read the Bible. According to it, anyone who reject/denies the Holy Spirit, has commited an unforgivable sin. Unforgivable, know what that means?

"If God does that, how can he be so evil?"

Any creature that kills and tortures other indigenous beings, is evil. If Hell exists, then Hell is proof that god is evil.


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On one Politically

On one Politically Incorrect show, Arianna Huffington said that she prays for Bill Maher every day.

 Here it is Real Time later and Bill Maher is still Bill Maher. 

 

It's not a matter of hating God, it's a matter of actually having read The Bible (which version?  There are so many different versions that I use a capital letter for the word The when I make reference to a specific set of versions--those based on the King James Authorized).

Those that believe in The Bible haven't really read the thing; those who don't, have. 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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Clara Listensprechen

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

It's not a matter of hating God, it's a matter of actually having read The Bible (which version? There are so many different versions that I use a capital letter for the word The when I make reference to a specific set of versions--those based on the King James Authorized).

I think you should learn a little more about the bible, because a Christian could tear this argument to shreds. What you're talking about is there's lots of different English translations of the bible, and that doesn't prove anything. There is a considerable amount of doubt in certain areas about what the bible originally contained, but this has nothing to do with the large array of translations available. I suggest Bart Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus.


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I don't need somebody

I don't need somebody else's book to tell me how to read The Bible, which in its DISPARATE versions already have employed truckloads of scholars with better credentials than yours to "translate" and STANDARDIZE into English.

 Do you even know what the term "STANDARDIZED" means?  The use of that term alone is proof enough that there's more to the method than simply translating stuff into English.  It means that there are numerous "original manuscripts" that disagree with each other, making the standardization of what's disparate about them necessary.

 There exists NO excuse for the NIV to translate terms related to a storm into "northeaster", as the Mediterranean doesn't even get Nor'easters in the first place, and that's one of numerous examples of English "translation" that isn't really a matter of accuracy.

 Now is your opportunity to tell me what a "superapostle" is.

 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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Actually there are some

Actually there are some dishonest versions that purposely mistranslate in order to get rid some of the more immoral/ridiculous parts of the Buy Bull.

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Only some? I respectfully

Only some? I respectfully submit that ALL versions have an agenda that address specific issues of the times in which they were written, and that there are NO exceptions.

 

For instance, don't you think it the least bit peculiar that the New Testament was written mostly by Saul/Paul and his cronies?  Two of the four Gospels were written by his entourage (Luke and Mark), after all, as were the lion's share of the Epistles.

 And don't you think it the least bit peculiar that John the Gospel writer coudln't name all of The Twelve by name and actually came up with 14 or so apostles?

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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Clara Listensprechen

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

I don't need somebody else's book to tell me how to read The Bible, which in its DISPARATE versions already have employed truckloads of scholars with better credentials than yours to "translate" and STANDARDIZE into English.

Do you even know what the term "STANDARDIZED" means? The use of that term alone is proof enough that there's more to the method than simply translating stuff into English. It means that there are numerous "original manuscripts" that disagree with each other, making the standardization of what's disparate about them necessary.


Ok, ok, calm down. I totally agree with you. It seems that you do know a bit about textual criticism. I thought you were confusing "translations" with "versions." I was trying to help.

Misquoting Jesus is still a good intro to textual criticism of the bible.

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

There exists NO excuse for the NIV to translate terms related to a storm into "northeaster", as the Mediterranean doesn't even get Nor'easters in the first place, and that's one of numerous examples of English "translation" that isn't really a matter of accuracy.

Now is your opportunity to tell me what a "superapostle" is.

 

The NIV doesn't claim to be a literal translation. They, on purpose, try to make it read better to modern English speakers, and this involves changing things. This of course makes the NIV more of an interpretation than just a translation. If one is going to do a serious study of the bible, one would avoid the NIV because it de-contextualizes, but for casual reading its OK.

I don't know what the hell a superapostle is.


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I don't think the NIV

I don't think the NIV people have any idea either, but it's what they've substituted for the KJAV's "chiefest of apostles", which is just as awkward.  Somewhere in the "original texts" Paul seems to have ascribed some sort of pecking order among The Twelve, and my take on that is a tacit jab at Peter, specifically, as Acts has an account of Paul kicking Peter to the curb.

Actually, the NIV does serve a useful purpose despite its libertine ways with language--it has rather revealing footnotes that would be of use to the person arguing against The Bible's general authenticity in any Standardized form. 

I shall continue to be an impossible person as long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}


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Clara Listensprechen

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

I don't think the NIV people have any idea either, but it's what they've substituted for the KJAV's "chiefest of apostles", which is just as awkward. Somewhere in the "original texts" Paul seems to have ascribed some sort of pecking order among The Twelve, and my take on that is a tacit jab at Peter, specifically, as Acts has an account of Paul kicking Peter to the curb.

Hah! I never noticed the "super-apostles" in the NIV, and that's the main translation I used for years. There were a few other botched parts too. I don't remember where it is, but there's a passage that talks about Jesus' first visit to earth, but the way the NIV reads it sounds like the passage talks about the second coming.

Clara Listensprechen wrote:

Actually, the NIV does serve a useful purpose despite its libertine ways with language--it has rather revealing footnotes that would be of use to the person arguing against The Bible's general authenticity in any Standardized form.

Yes, but I wonder if many Christians every really read the footnotes. I've only know of one person ever mentioning them to me.


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Reply to Julianna

Hi Julianna,

 I don't know if you're even still reading these replies, I hope you are.  

Your message was really beautiful, I'm an atheist and I can still say that comfortably.  Here is what I feel I need to say in response: you said that "Christianity is not 'pyschological torture,'" I can only agree that not all Christianity is psychological torture.  You may not know it, you may not see it, but there are monsters among those who practice your faith.  These are terrible, terrible monsters, committing not only psychological torture but physical torture as well.   These monsters dominate the weak, take money for their own ends (not God's), and, worst of all, advocate the end of all who do not share their "viewpoint."  We as atheists are called to fight these monsters, and we call upon those who truly advocate God's love and compassion to fight alongside us.  Pat Robertson disguises himself by professing belief in the Christian God, but in truth he is no man of God whatsoever.  He seeks power in God's name.  As we, the world, responded to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi's, so we must respond to people like Pat Robertson and his fundamentalist supporters.

I won't revile you for your beliefs, Julianna.  I will advise you, however, to do some homework, understand why freethinkers are so angry with religion today, and then join the common cause to stamp out extremism.  We gotta work together on this.   


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I'm watching Mario Batali

I'm watching Mario Batali cook food.  It looks delicious.


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Voiderest wrote: YOU

Voiderest wrote:
YOU RESPOND:
Julianna wrote:
I'll pray for this group..
others will think for you

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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AiiA wrote:

AiiA wrote:
Voiderest wrote:
YOU RESPOND:
Julianna wrote:
I'll pray for this group..
others will think for you

(Everybody beat me to it, damn). I was going to say "Ready everybody, on a count of three...1-2-3......WE'LL THINK FOR YOU!!!


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you openly admit that you

you openly admit that you are easaly swayed by other peoples point of view, you are very simply a follower
you feel good in church because you have been told your supost to feel good in church.
I would like to point out the contradictions and misscongruent timelines in the bible. And befor you say misstranslation, or it was written by men, I want you to think long and hard about weather or not an all powerfull being could find some one who was capable of takeing proper dictation with out mussing it up.
It is my oppinion that if god cannot accuratly record "historical" events then god desurves the respect and pay of a very poorly trained pathetic exuse of a secritary or the kid at burger king that always screws up my order.

--
Know god, No Peace
No god, Know Peace


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Well most of the points I

Well most of the points I could make against this letter have been already made. My solution for the time being is, you go pray, I'll go make a sandwich.

 

    P.S. pray for some dijon mustard, mmm