Well I suppose that's subjective. You could ask the original poster to clarify. He may say it wasn't hate, he might say it was artistic ranting, or he may even say that in his own twisted way he was trying to shake you up (because he cares). He might just come out and say it was hate, I dont know.

By the way when I offered $5 if you found promoted hatred against a Christian from an RRS member, I was talking about the list of people here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/our_team

It can get confusing because one might say anyone on this message board is an RRS member, but then that'd make you an RRS member, wouldn't it?

You're absolutley right, I was being far to general. To elaborate; you are demonizing us with baseless assumptions and you are demonizing yourself...well, by making baseless assumptions. I hope that clears it up for you.

Whatever gave you the idea that this about christianity and christianity only? This is about all religion, not just yours. Also, these people do not simply use "any" reason "they so choose" in debate. These ideas come from logic and reason; they're well thought out and prescise. Perhaps you should take time to actually read them, as well as go over this site.

Well, I'm sorry to say, but you haven't done a very good job of defending your beliefs or understanding our perspective. Nevermind the fact that we are all individuals here and our perspective shifts slightly on diffrent things. But hey, that's "free will" for you, huh?

I've gone over this thread and I haven't found in instance of someone here being hypocritical. Can you point that out to me?

You haven't come here to debate? So you are here to demonize us?

Sorry if we happen to be secure in what we believe in and what we don't. You shouldn't lash out at us simply because your resolve is paper-thin. Try countering with something substantial.

Yes I have. Thanks, by the way.

What concepts are these? Can you prove they did not exist before Jesus' birth? If we already embrace these concepts, then how are we not saved? You truly believe this? Prove it, then.

I believe that you do want to grow. I also believe that's why you came here. If you agree that questioning is a part of growth, then you'd have to admit that religion discourages growth. You are commanded to not question god. You are commanded to simply except his existance and apparent perfection. It seems to me you're stuck in the middle. How can you question your faith when doing so is a hell worthy?

I don't need to tell you this, but I don't believe in god. I was talking about your elitism. Are you implying your sovereign?

A perfect example of manipulating and twisting my words.

By the way, if I don't respond to your questions, accusations, or even your irrational logic it's because I deem it pointless.

You misunderstood me. You thought I was talking about god when I was actually talking about you. Nevermind that you have neither denied or defended your apparent elitism.

A perfect example of your elitist attitude. If you ignore what we have to say to you, then we will assume you are not intellectually equiped to defend yourself.

AAB, can you name ****ONE**** positive thing from the Old or New Testament that was new to it? Keep in mind we probably know a whole lot more about earlier religions and philosophies that said the same thing (and we may know more about the Bible than you do.)

Actually, It was you that took my words out of context and applied and twisted my words to your philosophy. Such a silly game you play. I notice how my words twisted by someone here and then I rewrite to better explain myself because I think I didn't clearly communicate and then I get accused of not defending what I said. What a lame mind game. I've been trying to ignore that game which is why I don't necessarily think I ought to reply to every comment or question, hence deeming something pointless (your mind games).
I didn't need to defend or deny my elitism. I said God is sovereign which makes Him an elitist, and it naturally follows that since I follow God, then that means I follow and elitist and elitist Ideas. Just because I follow an Elitist who is Sovereign doesn't make me soverign.

Amen! I was born an atheist but was born-again spiritually about 8 years ago. So now I am praising God.

I'm not pulling false sympathy because I have no sympathy. I have no sympathy because it is not up to me to change your minds or open your eyes. It is up to God. So since it is up to God, what good can my having sympathy do for you? As for appeals to fear, I had said "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" in which I was quoting Hebrews. I wasn't saying it to try and scare anyone into being a Christian because it is the goodness of God that leads one to repentance (not logic or fear). Atheists are blind in noticing that the good things they have in life are from God and not of themselves. So for the last time, I'm not here to try and convert anyone. I'm here because athiests have attacked my Christianity, and I'm still trying to figure out why they have attacked. I guess somehow athiests think that Christianity is harming them somehow? I disagree. I see that the nature we all are born with that makes us not believe in God or makes us come out of the womb not praising God is the cause of the harm. So we both think in cause/effect relationships, but we just can't agree on the cause. But the bible says that God's ways are higher than our ways, so what makes you think that you can logically and rationally find God through our lower human ways of understanding?
1Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Cor 1:19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1Cor 1:22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
1Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
1Cor 1:24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Cor 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Cor 1:26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
1Cor 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Cor 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
1Cor 1:29 so that no man may boast before God.
1Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
1Cor 1:31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

And I pride myself in the wisdom of God that confounds (contradicts) your earthly wisdom.

So you weren't happy with the way God made you and indoctrinated yourself into the writings of Paul for "self improvement"? And you say you praise the God whose original work you thought you had to fix?

In other words, you can't come up with an example....

Because there aren't any.... there's no moral, humanistic concept original to the bible, or to religion itself. Religion steals its moral concepts from secular sources, because that's where they originate - in human empathy.

I hate to break it to you, but there hasn't been any reason for me to twist your words with the purpose of making you look bad. You're doing a good enough job doing it yourself. Look; let me clarify once and for all. I was asking you if you were elitist. When I asked you if you thought you were sovereign, I wasn't twisting your words. I was mocking you. You've come here with the idea that you're better than all of us because you are "saved". I was reminding you that you are not. Sorry you didn't get it.

Even though you took the liberty of stating this repeatedly throughout this post, I am not trying to play mind games with you. I see fallacies in what you have to say, so I point them out to you. Don't like it? Defend them. It would certainly work better than having you inceassently bitch about not playing by your rules.

Now, the reason why I've harping on about your elitism is because it destroys your entire case. You've indulged us with alot of sugary anecdotes about loving thy neighbor, being saved, being forgiving and growing as a person. If you're an elitist, how are these things possible? Can you love thy neighbor if he does not belong to you elite sect? Can you truly forgive someone if you perceive them as inferior and therefore prone to error? Can any of us be saved, if we are not superior, like you? Do you have the capacity to question yourself with the intent to grow if you already perceive yourself as superior? To me, religion degrades compassion and as far as I am concerned, you've proven me right.

Oh, and berfore you go on about me twisting your words (because I know you will) here is the definition of elitism:

Elitism;

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Remember; you just let us all know that you are elitist. Therefore, the above definition applies to you. No one is twisting your words.

Let me try to take this back to the subjects of discussion...

This is extremely poor logic on your part.

1) People want the Bible to make perfect sense
2) the Bible does not make sense
3) Therefore, man didn't write the Bible

What people? Us? Yes, I think many peple today would like the Bible to make sense. What I think you are missing is the context from which the Bible came. The people writing the books were not trying to have their document match up with the other documents because they didn't know they would all be gathered together into a single book a couple of hundred years later. That is, the meticulous editing would not have been possible. Had those officials done so in the 4th century, it would have been obvious taht they had done so and nobody would have accepted the changes.

The editors had simply to choose which books to include, and not to out-right edit them to make the whole Bible internally consistent.

You would have to demonstrate that the authors of the Bible were conscious of a concept like "Bible" rather than simply writing a solitary document to tell a story.

The only conclusion you could get from above is
3) Therefore, people don't get what they want.

Sorry, your book does not make sense, you don't get what you want. In response, you add on your unsupported conclusion that God must have written it and made if a jumble of obfuscation. This conclusion does not follow from the premises you have made.

What is more likely; 1) The Bible does not make sense because it is a collection of diverse and loosely related religious texts by people with different cultures, motives, and languages and subsequently discussed and gathered together into the Bible in the 4th century?

or..

2) God inspired many people to write pieces of a book (to be put together later by other men, who might have been inspired to pick the correct ones from the multitude of similar books) that would confuse us.

The fact that you choose 2 over 1 is an example of special pleading; of choosing one answer over the other without good reason. You are biased, based on your desired conclusion, to pick God over man because you refuse to accept that people are capable of creating wonderful things as well as not-so-wonderful things.

---

As for your treatment of free will, I just say this.

So long as the choice--between admittedly limited options--I make is not constrained, and that i have options to consider, my will is free. Nothing about free will implies that it is absolutely free, only that it is able to decide between some options.

Hard determinism, which argues that material and causal factors have determined what actions will occur, is one thing. But to say that we don't have free will because we cannot create ex nihilo is to either be intellectually dishonest, ignorant (of what "free will" means), or simply stupid.

Shaun

Oh please. From Leviticus...Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Or in Deuteronomy...And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die:..

Throughout the bible are orders for "good" people to dispose of those that are not.

Talk about irrational thought... Free will has nothing to do with creating something from nothing. It has only to do with decision. Was it not (in the bible) the lack of free will that prompted the creation of Satan? The angels do not have free will, God specifically awarded it to humans.

Furthermore people DO have the ability to create. While we cannot create matter where there is none(neither can God, all of the matter in the universe is accounted for) we can create things such as music or sculpture. That is the ultimate example of free will.

I love statements like this. If you can replace certain words, specifically trading ones between those making the statement with those it is directed to, it proves the statement carries no weight. When such changes make no sense you may have truth.

What are you afraid of? Your attempt to deny that NO Christ loves you is futile. Every knee will bow to themselves in acknowledgement of their own sovereignty and you have complete control over that event happening in your life but not anyone elses. I feel sympathy for you all. May the delusion of God's existence open your blind eyes to see that He is not real, because He isn't, until then you'll just keep deceiving yourselves and keep trying to deceive others. It is a fearful thing to fall out of the hands of an anthropological God.

A truly loving God would ask for worship, not demand it. I like my version better.

If god is perfect and all knowing, why did he not start with the new covenant and skip the old one? Did god change his mind? Was he lying?

Will he change his mind again later? Is the new covenant just another lie?