A fan of Ray Comfort doesn't believe we exist
YOU RESPOND:
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Howie
Date: Aug 10, 2006 1:20 PM
Well I see you've decided you want to be added to my friends list. Well I'd like to have contact with you through MySpace, but because of your Space I couldn't allow that to be something anyone would view from My MySpace. Sorry, so what made you ask anyway? How did you find me? And I take it, you don't believe in a God? ok, I don't believe in Athiest! First to be an Athiest you'd have to prove or have absolute knowledge of the Universe and more to say there is no God. The fact is you don't know for sure, so really your an Agnostic? Its like me saying there is no gold in China as a fact without first having absolute knowledge of every square inch of China! Ok, lets have a civilized conversation, what do you say?
Howie
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To KSMB - you assume a lot.
todangst- quoting it has been refuted doesn't mean it has. You can argue till your blue in the face with me that there is no God but you can't disprove it to me. Why is that? Am I a intelectually challenged person whom was told this by my parents that God was real and then as a result of that I was forced to believe something because it was the only knowledge I knew? If you burnt you hand on a stove would you know you were burnt? If i told you stoves don't exist or aren't real or you were told by your parents to believe that then does that negate the fact of reality? Many of your parents told you gravity was true so then you guys are only believing that because your parents told you and you don't know anything else or is it cus you have proof? What it comes down to is proof. If you actually studied (your gonna claim you did cus you read like a few chapters, went to seminary, etc...) you would find evidence but you reject it because you love your sin. No matter how hard I argue with you to tell you that your hand wasn't burnt you still wouldn't believe me. In the same way why did I love my sin and looking at porn, thinking lustful thought, disboeying my parents, etc... and now don't? You can't explain that other than your usual arguments "that have been refuted in the past and are older than peanut butter". Yes, you still are a liar. Rationalize it or come up with some way to describe yourself as not a liar but at the end of the day your still a liar. What are your professions by the way?
-Jonathan
How utterly dishonest of you. I didn't just quote that it has been refuted, I pointed out how it was refuted, AND I provided a suggestion for further reading:
Fact: this argument was refuted several centuries before you were born. Go and look up the 'begging the question fallacy". Once you do, look and see how your argument begs the question that the universe is an artifact.
For more, read up on David Hume, who defeated Paley's version of this argument in the 18th century....
Please do me the favor of replying to what I actually say, and please do not respond to strawman versions of my posts.
If you have empirical evidence of this kind for your god, present it.
No, on the contrary, the contradictions, both internal and external, as well as the hatreds expressed in the bible, demonstrated to me that no such 'god' exists to me.
Here's the irony about my atheism: I can't believe that something as wonderful as a loving, caring, superintelligent being could be as petty and immoral and disgusting as you imagine that he is.....I can't imagine that there is a being so wonderful, yet so petty.
As the philosopher Galen Strawson said, if there is a god, he respects atheists most of all, because it the atheist who takes the concept of god most seriously...
I am willing to stand by my convictions, based on reason, that there can't be a 'god' who is so pettty, immature and hateful as your bible holds him to be... In short, I'm an atheist because I have more respect for the concept of god than most theists have.... you seem more than happy to imagine that there can be a loving creator who tortures his own creation for being precisely as he created them.... you seem happy to imagine a 'god' who destroys and tortures people of his own creation for their rationally held beliefs.....
I look at this and see illogic, and am able to quell any biased need to soothe death fears by propping up such a belief through dogma....
Meanwhile, you're the guy saying he won't change his mind.
If you have an argument present it, I'm all 'eyes'.... to you, it's so easy, so go ahead.
heheheheheh... ok, sure buddy...
When I claim an argument has been refuted, I demonstrate it.
Is this really how you actually act in the real world? Do you assume everyone is untrustworthy and actually act accordingly?
Or do you refute your own claim by trusting some people?
I bet you do the latter, dontcha?
It's not a rationalization to argue that it's a false dichotomy error to hold that telling one lie makes a person a liar, and you yourself prove this argument by the fact that you don't treat everyone as if they are liars... you trust some people, you distrust others... because what makes a person a liar isn't one lie, it's a preponderence of behaviors...
Hey, think about it... if one act makes you liar, or a theif, then aren't you an atheist? It would follow from this logic that if you've ever had any disblief in god, you're an atheist...
but you realize that's not true... what matters is what you do now.. so why wouldn't this apply to other behaviors?
Well, according to you, I'm a professional liar, theif, etc.... but according to what you really think deep down, I'm not such a bad guy... my professsion involves working with developmentally disabled children.....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Becuase having a brain is not a big deal, believeing in your brain is not the difference between ETERNAL TOURTURE, and ignorant heaven.
The brain also doesn't make claims of resurection, creating the universe... etc.
The only thing the brain has going for is that you, yourself are it.
Now what about you? Have you seen your brain? I sure haven't. How do you know you have a brain? Books told you? X-ray picture showed you? Doctor told you? How do you know that they were telling you the truth?
For me, Because it's you "Wackos" that are making America a shit hole (And the luaghing stock education wise), it's you guys that think we are evil and should be sent to prison for not sucking your god's love pump.
It's you guys that are demonizing science, and requireing schools to teach the frivolus "Science" of "Intelligent" Design". It's you "Wackos" that are ignoring everyone else, and deciding to vote on whether or not they suck Jeesdik, Instead of other, MORE IMPOTENT FACTORS.
It's you guys that made it impossible for an atheist to not hold public office IN THREE STATES. JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD!
I love how you guys are comparing your ALMIGHTY GOD, to simple burns, the brain, a factory/store.
Maybe you should be deists and worship a pencil.
If only people like this froogy character could use the same skepticism for their religious beliefs as they do for our brains....
Ever seen your God? How do you know it exists, Bible told you< preacher? mom?
Don't assume that because you have warm fuzzy feelings while thinking about Jesus that it's Jesus. Hell, I get warm fuzzy feelings when thinking about Aphrodite, but that's only because she's supposed to be really hot and sexy.
And yes, I like porn, sex with women to whom I am not married, masturbation, and the occasional lie. Here, I'll throw one at you right now; I thought your challenge to us was inspiring, original, and I am seriously shaken at the implications of it. I honestly can say that I have been burying my fear of God and realize I just want to live a life of immoral and selfish sin, and that I have seen the light.
There, you got two for the price of one.
Dude, seriously. Sin is a made up concept. If you really think the all-powerful creator of the vast universe, of which this galaxy (let alone the planet) is an extremely small part, cares if I watch porn or wack-off, then I think you have a problem with perspective.
It's not that we can prove any concept of God does not exist (any more than you can prove your does), it's that the evidence--I should say "would-be-evidence"--is insufficient for me to accept the hypothesis of God.
Keep reading this site, and perhaps you'll understand why I say that.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
You misunderstand the nature of God. If I killed all your family and then I went before the judge isn't the judge a nasty mean judge for giving me the death penalty? By your logic he is.
You said, "you seem more than happy to imagine that there can be a loving creator who tortures his own creation for being precisely as he created them"
He created us but does that give me an excuse? If I made the excuse my parents created me then I killed mine and yours then does that get me out of what I've done? If I went before you, assuming your a judge, you would throw me in jail. The same way God should punish us based on the actions YOU and I both did. Not beccause he is just some sick God that tortures people for fun. Atheist always put the problem on God and get mad at him for how he is acting. Why don't you guys ever get mad at yourselves for your actions? I bet you got mad at your parents when they spanked you like you didn't do anything wrong. You blaim tons of killing on religion. You know more were killed in atheistic humanism (Mao, Stalin, Lenin , Che Guevera, Etc-) then religion. Funny how you never mention anything about those people but only God.
Do I trust liars? Yes, but the difference is that were talking punishment not if I'm friends with a liar.
How is it a false dichotomy error when you have lied? It would be one if you HAD NOT but you have.
I did present some of my evidence to you that there is a God. Why did I change and hate sin? I don't think your arrogant enough to answer that because you know nothing more about me than the man in the moon.
"If" there was a heaven or hell where would you go? Why should God send you there? (I bet you won't answer this question)
I bet you also think your a good person. Why is that?
Also, why did you laugh when I gave you proof about me? Whats so funny about that? Whats funny is you laughing at me thinking I'm stupid with your sure buddy remark like that changed anything. Yes, I'm wrong. I'm totally wrong there is no God because you laughed at me and couldn't give me a rebuttal. I'm waiting ----
-Jonathan
So, they're all self-contradictory?
check out http://www.rationalresponders.com/forums/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/a_small_compilation_of_contradictions
if you haven't already
Wouldn't a God (whichever one you want - God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Paul's Christ) that wants everyone to come to him put a book together that would make it easier to do so?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No I didn't, you are an incoherently rambling christian. By your own standards, saying such a lie about me makes you a liar. You violated your own commandment. Good going.
Excellent point you are making here... he's comparing a naturalistic claim to a supernatural claim... that's a pretty basic epistemological error... many theists make it, and trying to get them to grasp the error is often a struggle...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
So you assert... but how can something supernatural have a nature anyway? To exist is to exist as something, to have positive attributes, a nature... to be supernatural is to be beyond limits, and beyond nature...
So how can you discuss the nature of something beyond limits?
Wrong. That's a 'fit punishment' and no one here is arguing against that. What they are arguing over is something quite different, which makes your analogy way off the mark.
You see, your 'god' invents the concept of murder....when he didn't have to.... That's the real problem. So the question before you actually is: why does an all intelligent, all powerful, all loving being create such things in the first place? Why does this 'god' create his creation so that some of it will be tortured eternally?
You see, the problem is that your 'god' isn't just the judge, the problem is that he is also the culprit.
He's perfectly responsible for his entire creation, ergo he is ultimately reponsible for whatever pain or torture that exists.
So now, it's your turn to demonstrate your inability to grasp what perfect responsibility means, by giving us the 'free will defense'. And then I'll have to explain to you how omnipotence obviates free will... and then you'll be completely unable to follow the point....
You're not following the point. The point is that this 'god', as the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe, had to have created the universe with full knowledge of everything that would happen.
That means that this 'god' is perfectly responsible for everything that occurs.
While you won't get this, let me try anyway, for posteriorty.
Your 'god', as an omnipotent, omniscient creator, is responsible for every parameter of existence. Whatever options exist, this god is responsible for creating. This god also is responsible for whatever factors lead to whatever outcome.
Therefore, it follows necessarily that this 'god' is perfectly responsible for whatever happens.
Therefore, this 'god' is not just the judge, to use your flawed analogy, but also the cause of the crime! He invented the concept of the crime, he created the environment that could produce it, and the people who would commit it... this god is responsible for everything.
So it has nothing to do with making an excuse.... it has to do with the logical ramification of omnipotence and omniscience.
'
The old flawed parents analogy. Here's the flaw: Your parents are perfectly responsible omnipotent creators of the universe.
The same god is responsible for creating the concept of sin, of creating the need to punish it. He's responsible for creating the universe, the environment that we live in, our characters... every single aspect of existence that leads to any outcome.
If you want to cry 'free will' then you have to realize that this 'god' also created the free will, and its limits! And the universe which obviates your free will anyway!
So your error, which you will repeat for years to come, is your inability to see that your 'god' must be perfectly responsible for whatever happens in his universe, ergo this 'god' is morally culpable for whatever 'sin' or torture exists.
And yet, you can never concede this, because it would require you to revamp your religious beliefs...
You're not making sense here, but then again, you can't afford to make sense, can you?
If everyone is a liar, how can you trust anyone? Can you answer that for me?
No you did not.
You didn't demonstrate that 'god' is responsible, you just believe that this is so... and, again, if there is a such a god, then he's responsible for the fact that you sinned in the first place!
I find it fascinating that theists can find their god responsible for some things, but not others...
Why wouldn't I answer it? Why should a god torture someone for their beliefs?
Would you torture your own children for their beliefs? I bet YOU won't answer that...
You haven't given any proof of any god... all you are doing is attributing some supposed change in your life to a god... there's a difference.... and if I laughed, it's because I find it strikingly unlikely that you don't have sexual longings for women any more... in fact, I find that a rather pathological declaration to make...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
You might assume someone was there before you and created all this stuff, but then you would look into the matter further to see if your assumptions met the tests of evidence and logic. Or rather, you would if you weren't a fundamentalist wacko.
Hey Guys,
I sure do enjoy how you guys resorted to name calling. You know if your point was so easy to make and we are so wrong and dumb fundamentalist wackos who are morons then why do you have to call us that?
It's amusing that you took offence to that, since I wasn't directly calling you a fundamentatlist wacko. The "you" was in the conditional sense of a hypothetical person. Since you identified with the term, I guess it's safe to say that you don't test your assumptions with evidence and logic.
There are millions of pictures of brains, historical and recent, coming from millions of different sources. Millions of people have seen human brains firsthand. All medical sources agree, with great specificity, about the presence of brains and what brains are and what they do. Medical treatments based on our knowledge of the brain work, reliably. If I wanted to see a human brain firsthand, I could do so and it would be there.
All of the above constitutes evidence. It is true that I have never directly seen a human brain, but I believe they exist based on the overwhelming evidence.
Now let's contrast the "evidence" for god. There are no photographs of god. No one has ever seen god. Thousands of different religions have wildly differing ideas of what god is and what he wants. Prayer does not work. There are no actions that I can take to directly find out if god exists.
Do you now understand the difference between rational belief and faith?
No, we don't want to be called agnostics because the term, as it's commonly used, is inaccurate. Most people who identify themselves as agnostic are expressing their unwillingness to state their belief or lack of belief in a god. They wish to only focus on the fact that that don't know one way or the other. Atheists DO wish to make a statement about their belief status, which is to say that they do NOT believe there is a god. Big difference.
You have tons of tangible proof that we all have brains.
You speak as though we have no answer to these questions about where biological organisms come from. The fact is, we do! We don't have to assume - we've done the research, dug into the facts and discovered the truth through science. If you saw a car you might assume that it was made by a person. When you investigated further, you'd find that you were right. If you saw a tree you might assume that it was made by some intelligence. But when you investigate that further, as biologists have done for centuries, you find that this is NOT the case. Evolution is a fact, and it explains where every living thing came from.
We don't have to talk about assumptions and suppositions. WE KNOW HOW LIFE EVOLVED.
The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of a closed system will increase over time. Since living things evolve through nonrandom adaptations to external influences, they are not in a closed system and the 2nd law doesn't apply.
Because the morons and wackos will not let us be. They are bringing their religious agendas out of the church and into the streets, the town hall and the schools and demanding respect and deference for their views. I'm sorry, but those views are not worthy of anyone's respect, and it's time that everyone be aware of that before any more public policy is made based on those views.
Because they are antisocial, destructive activities that endanger the community. As social animals, we are evolved to have powerful negative feelings about such activities. As thinking people, we can easily see the bad consequences of these actions and decide not to tolerate them. No god is necessary, and all religion ever does is make up justifications for why some people should get away with these things.
You got that right!
Oh, and BTW, you can take your santimonious, arrogant presumption that you have ANY right to judge ANYONE else's morals and cram it right up your ass. At least we atheists actually own our morals instead of abrogating all responsibility to an invisible sky daddy and his book of fairy tales.
I see, so we're supposed to feel so guilty now about all the bad stuff we did in the past that we're going to go screaming into god's arms for his pretend solace.
I have news for you. There is no forgiveness. There is no way out. The past is the past and it can't be changed. You have to live right, right now, so that you don't have to look back on your past with regret. You are deluding yourself if you think your trips to church are saving you from anything or making you less responsible for anything. It's all still there, it's all on you, and the more you try to deny it, the more fucked up you'll get.
Damn! So if I had just kept believing in Santa, that would mean he really exists? Man, my parents are in trouble. Just think of all the free stuff they've cost me by telling me the truth!
I recommend that everyone email this clown their very favourite and long-winded arguments against theism to pay him back for prosletyzing on this site.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown