What is your point? [You Respond]

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What is your point? [You Respond]

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Tasha (Tashaazor@yahoo.com) sent a message using the contact form at http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

For the life of me, i can't see why you bother to try and destroy religion.
you never can. its not a place or a practice. its something in ones heart.
how can you destroy that.  for a group of people that don't believe in god, you spend all day and all night thinking about him. your lives are dedicated to disproving him so much. for something you feel is not true, you spend a lot of time on. i dont try and disprove the existence of santa or the tooth fairy cause i simply know its a lie. honestly, if i ever had a doubt about god being real, your whole "movement" assures me he is. he must be to get all this attention. in fact, you are proving him to be true just by proving his word true. the bible says people like you would say just what you say and do just what you do. this was all predicted. your actually fulfilling prophecy that you are trying to prove false. if you want to convince me god isn't real, live as such. dont post up a whole website and debate nationally with believers. what are you so upset about if its all a myth. i saw your debate on abc and you guys looked annoyed and sarcastic. i cant help but to think, why get so heated about it then.
go home, eat sleep and wake up without god for all we care. religion does not cause conflict, ethics do. people will always disagree about things.
if religion never existed, we would still fight about anything. its the human condition, that we must disagree. honestly, you guys come off more like satanists. it seems more like the devil set you up to do and say all you do. whether or not you accept that, everyone out there knows that this is true. how is evolution rational to you rational response team? how can anything come from nothing. you CANNOT prove that the earth was just simply made by gases. who made the gases? who made the "thing" that made the gases? it will never make sense. why just stop at saying that the gases were just there. lets figure out who made them. without that, how can we ever satisfy the question of "where did creation come from". you guys are stupid and i would love to talk to you some day. you dont make sense period! god is real! if he wasn't, you wouldn't spend all this time on him

Thank you,

and God Bless

We haven't done this in a while, so I figured some might want to hop on this one.   


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Hambydammit

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Focusedoc
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i admire your efforts but

i admire your efforts but you really aint answer my question. i disagree with your ASSUMPTIONS  about an all powerful being. it shows nothing. and as for "not knowing", there leaves huge hole for the possibility of a god. you will never know. you can never answer where anything started from. you can't. it will never make sense. nice try tho.

 

now i gotta go to work

 

bye 


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Focusedoc wrote: i admire

Focusedoc wrote:

i admire your efforts but you really aint answer my question. i disagree with your ASSUMPTIONS  about an all powerful being. it shows nothing. and as for "not knowing", there leaves huge hole for the possibility of a god. you will never know. you can never answer where anything started from. you can't. it will never make sense. nice try tho.

 

now i gotta go to work

 

bye 

Do you not see that "god" and "I don't know" have the same value informationally? Where do I send my tax return? "God." No, what address? "God." Ok, what's the weather like in Seattle right now? "God." Where did energy come from? "God."

It answers absolutely nothing. 


Hambydammit
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Quote: hey, i'm back, i was

Quote:
hey, i'm back, i was just curious, i bet you guys answered this before but i was curious for a REAL answer, what would you guys do if you got hit by a car and woke up one day on the other side, sitting right in front of this "fake" god. just for the sake of argument, try to entertain this thought...

Pardon my vulgarity, but this is the real answer.

I would say, "You arrogant, self centered fuckwad! You fucking sadistic son of a bitch! How the fuck could you possibly expect me to feel guilty for not believing in the most fucked up, illogical piece of shit anybody had ever written and claimed to be true? You are the most awful creature in the universe, and I would rather experience your fucked up, psycopathic version of retribution than give you even the slightest bit of pleasure. Fuck you you fucking prick."

Quote:
IF god is real, the christian god, then that means he IS all knowing, sovereign, ominscient, omnipresent and so forth. that would mean (for the sake of argument), he can do what he wants when he wants without answering to anyone at all.

Yes. This is true. And if he exists as described, than he is the most awful and evil creature imaginable.

Quote:
that kind of a god is impossible to rationalize, rational responders.

That's also true. But, if that god exists, then it is literally impossible to know anything because logic and reason cannot be trusted for anything. It would even destroy the axiom of existence. If god can do anything, he could also make us think we exist when we don't! Philosophy, science, and everything that we believe tells us about the universe would be utterly useless.

Quote:
i am not trying to be difficult but i dont see how you guys turn other people into atheists.

There are a lot of people, who you have called weak, who are actually open-minded, and accept the possibility that they might be wrong. They're able to notice that everyone who follows Islam is just as convinced that they're right. It occurs to them that there's a possibility neither side is right!

These people examine things rationally, and sometimes they are able to get past the fear of losing their religion. Sometimes, the brainwashing of their childhood didn't stick.

Quote:
IF he is real, no one would be able to disprove it.

I've already explained this to you. If an illogical god exists, then it is literally impossible to know anything about anything -- including whether god exists! If logic doesn't work, then even knowing that the illogical god exists wouldn't be certain, because it would take logic to realize that illogic sometimes works!

Quote:
i dont know if you all know descartes theory on existance.

Um.. yes. Pretty much all of us have had that in our first philosophy class.

Quote:
he questions the belief of god. what do you think of that.

Descartes' argument falls apart upon further examination. His method of starting with the axiom of existence was sound, but the ontological argument has been refuted since about ten minutes after the next competent philosopher read it.

Furthermore, dualism has been completely refuted by modern science. Consciousness is a product of natural phenomena, and though we cannot explain all aspects of consciousness yet, we can demonstrate that dualism is false.

Quote:
no one answered this question i asked earlier about where the gases came from. where did creation come from. science is pretty cool but you have to realize that it cannot explain everything.

I'm not a cosmologist, so I'm not going to attempt to answer this. Deludedgod, one of the mods here, has written several essays explaining in detail the current theories. You can find his essays HERE. It's heavy science. That's what you're asking for. Now, are you going to read the essays?

Here's an interesting thought for you. Let's do a side by side comparison of everything that we've learned using the scientific method, and everything that we've learned using divine revelation.

Science: Well, just look around you. Computers, medicine, clothes, candles, cat food, prisms, space shuttles, telescopes, x-ray machines, skin cream, fishing hooks, vibrating dildos, books, televisions, 409 spray cleaner, the banana, immersion blenders, nuts and bolts, wankle rotary engines, windmills, THX Surround Sound, plastic, aspirin, Velvet Elvis, passports, lava lamps, compact discs, IPods, beer, spears, Colt 45 revolvers, boots, cataract surgery, agrigulture, domestication of animals...

Divine Revelation:

 

 

 

...

 

You see, religion has "claimed" many things through divine revelation. For instance:

The earth is flat.

The earth rests on a tortoise.

The earth stands on pillars (You've read that in your very own bible!)

The sky is solid, and the stars are hanging from it like Christmas tree lights.

The earth is 6000 years old.

Man was created out of dirt.

Rabbits chew cud.

A great dragon was killed by a rival god, and from her dead body, the ocean was formed.

The thing is, everything that religion has claimed about cosmology has been proven wrong. How did we do that? We used science.

I recommend that you expand your philosophical horizons a bit. Descartes is what they give you in your first class to show you how modern philosophy began. We've made a lot of progress since then.

Quote:
i know many scientists hate the idea of intelligent design and dont even acknowledge it as being science, but i think it kinda makes sense.

And you're qualified to say that it's a science how?

Are you a scientist? How arrogant of you to suggest that with your little poly-sci half education that you're more qualified than 99% of the scientists in the world, who dismiss intelligent design as having no science!

Quote:
where did everything come from.

We aren't sure. Neither are you.

Quote:
no one ever answers that.

That's because we don't know for sure. One of the theories we have now might turn out to be true, but we're not going to claim that we have the answer when we are not certain. That's the territory of preachers.

Quote:
how can science ever satisfy the question of where everything came from.

Through observation, experiment, and mathematics, just like it has answered every other question it's answered.

Quote:
they will always shred it down to the smallest substance, an atom, a nuetron, a cell, gases... but who made all those. where did nothing come from?

You really need to read the essay refuting the ontological argument. You're speaking from ignorance. Why don't you read all those essays I linked for you, and if you still don't understand it, come back and ask us, and we'll try to explain it more. I'm not going to type out the explanation here because it's already been done, and I don't feel like giving you your own personal explanation. I've shown you exactly where the answers are. Go read.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit
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Quote: i disagree with your

Quote:
i disagree with your ASSUMPTIONS about an all powerful being.

They aren't assumptions. They're deductions that are 100% certain. You know about induction and deduction, right? You know that if you have a valid syllogism, and your facts are true, then the deductive conclusion is certain, right?

If you're not up on your beginning logic, here's a series of essays explaining it. You're probably going to be most interested in parts 6 and 7, but your arguments display a basic lack of critical thinking skills, so I'd suggest you start at the beginning.

Quote:
it shows nothing. and as for "not knowing", there leaves huge hole for the possibility of a god.

This is called the God of the Gaps Fallacy. It is essentially an argument from ignorance. It works like this:

We don't know the answer to question X.

Therefore, the answer to X is Y.

You can see how absurd it is when it's just letters, right? We just said we don't know, then we claim to know! It's self-contradicting.

We don't know the answer to "Where did the universe come from."

Therefore, the answer is "God did it."

Equally absurd.

Quote:
you will never know.

So, you're joining the ranks of those who have said things like, "Man will never be able to go to the moon," or "Machines made of metal will never be able to fly."

Let me know how that works out for you.

Quote:
you can never answer where anything started from. you can't. it will never make sense. nice try tho.

Why are you in school? I'm not asking that rhetorically. If you have so little belief in the ability of the human mind, why are you trying to learn?

You should quit school and spend all of your time in church, praying to god to give you the knowledge you need.

Quote:

now i gotta go to work

 

bye

I'd really love it if, when you come back, you actually answer some of the points I've made. I've taken a couple of hours out of my life trying to answer your questions, and I'd appreciate it if you demonstrated that you're trying to understand and form answers for yourself.

Are you just dismissing what I say without thinking about it? If you are, what possible justification can you have? Do you already know you're right, so it's pointless to listen to anything anyone else has to say?

I'm interested in answering as many of your questions as I can, but I'm only going to keep investing time (out of the only life I get!) with you if you're not going to engage in a meaningful discussion.

I'm kind of tired of giving you well reasoned answers and then having you simply go back and assert that I'm wrong without even bothering to explain to me how I'm wrong. If there's a good reason to believe in your god, tell me what it is. Help me understand where you're coming from. Stop preaching. Give me some thinking instead, ok?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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All of the Abrahamic Religions are against gay people

Christians, jews and muslims can't be tollerent twords gays and lesbians because their holy book condemns it. The can never learn tollerance to something that is considered a sin by divine right.

Mike Clarke


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michaelclarke

michaelclarke wrote:
Christians, jews and muslims can't be tollerent twords gays and lesbians because their holy book condemns it. The can never learn tollerance to something that is considered a sin by divine right.

 

to the guy that wrote all those posts for me, i really appreciate it a lot actually and if i find out how to break up what you say by quotes, i will respond, i assure you.

 

to this gentleman here....

 

thats not even something you should blame on christianity.

 

first off, its not that we should not tolerate them. i have gay friends that i love so much and they like me too. we hang out and they talk to me about doing it with their partners and stuff. i dont tell them to go away you evil sinner. in fact, the bible does not tell us to do that either. a lot of atheists like to talk about the God of wrath from the old testament but the new testaments jesus was loving. he was even found eating with gentiles and sinners. we are "supposed" to as christians, to love everyone. it is hard for many as you can see and they are rude to these people and they tend not to tolerate them as fellow humans or even citizens. i totally disagree, and so does my bible that you all so hate. my friends know how i feel about the sin. i believe it is wrong to be gay. they know that, but i don't think god hates them, or that he expects me to either. we are not supposed to hate them, but the sin.

 

also, i wanted to point out the fact that an atheist on this forum pointed out earlier that even some atheists think that homosexuality is wrong.  in fact, before i was a believer i didn't think it was right. i bet a lot of atheists thought the same thing as well. people made fun of it on tv and everyone thought it was strange, religious or not.   moreover, the matter of homosexuality being wrong is scientifically a bad mutation dont ya think. a bad mutation can be understood in many cases to be a genetic error that disables an organism to reproduce. isn't that the point of evolution. the good traits are past on and many times the bad ones die off from survival of the fittest, or simply not physically being able to carry on the race.  in fact, biologically, our bodies, when sexual arroused are doing so in hopes of reproduction. notice gentleman, when your penis erects, it does so to enter the vagina. kinda hard to do if your limp. when you climax, your body releases sperm cells. not by accident but for purposes of reproduction. everything a womans body does is for the same thing. every month, we menstrate for...reproduction. now, our bodies are specifically made for the opposite sex. we are fooling our bodies when we sleep with someone of the same sex. it thinks we are trying to reproduce but we aren't. its a bad mutation. think if everyone was gay, was that kants moral theory? if we were all gay, the human race would just die. 

 

so even according to your precious science, homosexuality isn't quite right. so don't call it a religious thing please.

 

and as for fish, i will not respond to your forums so stop trying. not cause your too smart, don't get excited. your sarcasm just pisses me off, and i will not talk to ten people at the same time. i'm only one girl that is very busy.

 

and hammby(i think thats your name), i do appreciate the time spent on trying to educate me on your thoughts and i take them seriously. please give me a chance to respond.

 

and to everyone, though you may think i'm a stupid uneducated theist, talking to your guys i get educated, going through life, and standing up for what i believe. i don't believe in saying stupid things to people i dont know about. i want to hear it from you guys first. tell me so i can learn. i will always be a believer, there is no hope in anyone changing that because of my personal experiences that no conversation with any nonbeliever will make me forget.

 

i get that you guys think its hard to understand through logic and almost impossible to believe, but trust me (thought i bet you wont), i have experienced Him first hand.

 

goodnight,

 

i got class in the morning. 


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Focusedoc wrote: and as

Focusedoc wrote:

and as for fish, i will not respond to your forums so stop trying. not cause your too smart, don't get excited. your sarcasm just pisses me off, and i will not talk to ten people at the same time. i'm only one girl that is very busy.

I'm glad that it's not my being too smart that is putting you off. I'm not sure what sarcasm you're talking about though. Aside from this post all my questions and comments have been quite serious. If you really don't feel like you are capable of responding though I can't force you.

Good luck in your studies. Perhaps when you complete them you will be capable of addressing the problems pointed out in your arguments.


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you know what fish, your

you know what fish, your right. i got you mixed up with one of the other million atheists that were attacking me a few days ago. um... i just looked it over and you weren't rude at all. i apologize for accusing you. it is hard tho for me to reply to everyone. i am tryin had to fit you guys, in my schedule


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Take your time,

Take your time, Focusedoc.  We're not here to rush you.  We want you to take as much time as you need to think about what we say and respond adequately.

I hope you're not considering me among those who you say are "attacking you."  I'm attacking your beliefs, to be sure.  They're silly, and I can prove it.  But I hope you have realized that if you're willing to engage in meaningful dialog, we're going to be respectful.

 My job as a moderator includes making sure that nobody treats you unfairly.  I can assure you that if anybody does that, I will deal with it.  If you're here to learn, you will be treated respectfully.  Of that, you have my assurance.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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you know something, i was

you know something, i was thinking again (yes christians do think). this is along the lines of something i already said but i was realizing that, for entertainment sake, if god is real, no amount of philosophical or even logical reasoning, no scientic research or anything could disprove that. accept for one moment god is a fairy tale (as you all do), whethe or not you think it makes so for an all mighty being to act at all (as magilum said i think), because he is endlessly who he is, without excuse and can move about as he pleases, he can still choose to do things that to us can make no sense.

 

many christians understand that it is not best to question god. not because its this huge sin but because we wont get him all the time.

 

realize this you guys, if god is real, there is no way the creation can out smart the creator. its impossible. our minds cannot possibly grasp who or what he is fully. he can reveal some of these things to us, but realize that in our "fairy tale", he is all powerful and sovereign. the bible says the wisest man in the world is a fool before god. whether you believe he exists, this would be true. its cool that you guys study him so much and our faith. thanks for the interest but your brain is not bigger than gods. no matter what you say, how can you out smart one that created you. in descares theory (i know someone said it was dumb), but realize how he said the being that created him can manipulate him into thinking everytime he adds two plus two it equals four. since this being is above him, the answer could really be five but he is subjected to his creator, limits. god gives us all limits. limited knowledge and wisdom. so even if you think he is a fairy tale, in this fairy tale, how could one out smart their creator. if he did give you a brain, he made it imperfect and not infinatley knowledgable to all things like he is. you would always bump into that wall.  so in our "fairy tale" called christianity, your trying to disprove this beings existance is self defeating, in that you never can. whether or not you believe, realize the character of god. in a hypothetic situation that he is real, who can challenge that.

 

off to work now

later 


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Well, I've done my best,

Well, I've done my best, and it's clear that you have no interest in learning anything.

Maybe some theists with a more open mind have been watching this thread and can recognize how terrified you are of questioning your god.

Perhaps there's a reason for that fear.  Maybe you know deep down that if you question it, you might have to give up your god?

I dunno.  That's the way it was for me when I was a Christian, anyway.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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sorry about all my spelling

sorry about all my spelling errors by the way...i'm i such a rush all the time...

 

 

also, someone said " what if i told you there was an elf living in your eye brow. i can't prove he exists but i swear he is there"..

 

aside from that being funny, its not quite the same thing. god is not a being that we say, "hey, i swear he is up there". he is a father who cares. so if you told me that there was an elf sitting or dancing in my eye brow and said it wanted to have a relationship with me and tries all the time to talk to me, i would laugh. but i would for entertainment purposes ask, "o yeah, how do i get in contact with him then". wouldn't many people on some level think that. if i told you some ghost was trying to contact you, wouldn't you at least want to know, even as a joke, how you can reach him. the thing is many of you have not been curious. maybe i am a curious person. god is not just a unicorn or zues. in fact, many other peoples gods dont care about having a relationship with them. there god is tyrannical. though you think our god is, we call him love. we say that god is love. you see the bible as this rule book but it was not quite intended to be that. its a love letter. page to page you see hoe much god was trying to get in contact with his people. there are stories of his mercy and promises and victories. many of you have heard them i'm sure. our god is a loving one and doesn't require us to where cloth over our faces. more over, other people claim to have the truth about their faith, in one way or the other, the key to some form of salvation for mankind. why aren't they even sharing it. you may see christians as annoying but they are trying to tell you that they care for what is going to happen to your soul. what would you do if a loud noise went off one day as you were walking down the street at night. what would you think if you saw a complete stranger jump right in front of you or push you out of the way. you ask them "dude, what are you doing?" and they say "i was trying save your life, i thought that was a gun shot ". annoying as you may find them, think about what their intentions were.

 

our god is a god of love. being that you dont understand him, and if he did exist, likely wouldn't like him because of all of his ways, realize this... you guys think of him in the way you do because you dont understand him and you dont know him. you curse him if he is up there and wont bother to try to get to know him. i know god, he is my best friend. i read the bible and i see him as a god of love. he is love which is why this perfect being created. he needed an object to love. thats why we are here. but, he is also a just god, and he will send some people to be far away from him for eternity. the damnation in hell is not the fire or lucifer but its eternal seperation from god.

 

amen...

 

now i'm really late 


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i dont know if you were ever

i dont know if you were ever a christian. you were a christian by practice but what a real christian is, is a person who is in love with god. not cause of what they hear about him but because they know him personally. you spend time with him and he speaks with you. you experienced him in a real way in your life. many people say they are christians becuase they go to church, pray before they eat, and read the bible. many do it out of fear of going to hell cause they dont actually understand what it REALLY means to be a christian. we take on christs name and call ourselves christians. we share in him as a family. so how can you say you were a christian, by that definition and then say you questioned god. the most real things about god are in your intimate relationship with him, that so called christians have never had. if you were like me, and had this, no matter what people tell you, you cannot doubt god. simply because you knew him personally. you never got personal with god. you never experienced him. you never knew him dude. you were never a christian. you were nominally but not actually.


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Focusedoc wrote: i dont

Focusedoc wrote:
i dont know if you were ever a christian. you were a christian by practice but what a real christian is, is a person who is in love with god. not cause of what they hear about him but because they know him personally. you spend time with him and he speaks with you. you experienced him in a real way in your life. many people say they are christians becuase they go to church, pray before they eat, and read the bible. many do it out of fear of going to hell cause they dont actually understand what it REALLY means to be a christian. we take on christs name and call ourselves christians. we share in him as a family. so how can you say you were a christian, by that definition and then say you questioned god. the most real things about god are in your intimate relationship with him, that so called christians have never had. if you were like me, and had this, no matter what people tell you, you cannot doubt god. simply because you knew him personally. you never got personal with god. you never experienced him. you never knew him dude. you were never a christian. you were nominally but not actually.

There you have it, Hamby.  You never let Jesus into your heart and his ministers into your colon.  That is why you are the way you are. 

This is perfect.  So, because you chose rationality over lunacy, you must not have been sufficiently a lunatic to begin with.  What Focusedoc is saying is that you have to be really psychotic if you are to be called ill at all. 

I know that this is the No True Scotsman argument, but it is just so absurd.  This must be his reaction to anyone who left a church. 

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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That's very convenient for

That's very convenient for you, isn't it.  No matter what I say, you've got a set answer that removes your responsibility to answer the real question.

You're right.  I spent two decades of my life just thinking that I was a Christian.  God didn't bother to let me know that this or that little bit of dogma was keeping me out of the "true faith."  Or, maybe he didn't feel like mentioning to me that my particular rationale for believing in him wasn't the right one.

You don't have to question god because you've decided that he's illogical, so you can't question him.

You don't have to believe I was a Christian because you've decided that all true Christians stay Christians -- because otherwise you'd have to question something.

You don't have to question whether there are natural explanations for things that seemed miraculous to you -- because you've decided they were miracles.

You are one of the most closed minded people that has come to this site, and I don't say that lightly.  I pity you.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Focusedoc wrote: since this

Focusedoc wrote:
since this being is above him, the answer could really be five but he is subjected to his creator, limits. god gives us all limits. limited knowledge and wisdom. so even if you think he is a fairy tale, in this fairy tale, how could one out smart their creator. if he did give you a brain, he made it imperfect and not infinatley knowledgable to all things like he is.

So god purposely made us incapable of understanding him, and is now intentionally tricking so that we have no chance of knowing him?

Would you lie to a child? What about a child you love? Why does god torment people by not allowing them to understand or know him?

 

Focusedoc wrote:
the thing is many of you have not been curious.

really?

Focusedoc wrote:
its cool that you guys study him so much and our faith

isn't that what curious means?

Focusedoc wrote:
god is not just a unicorn or zues.

How do you know? I thought it was impossible to know god fully. How can you know for a fact that god is not a unicorn or zeus? Perhaps god is doing something you don't understand.

Focusedoc wrote:
there god is tyrannical. though you think our god is, we call him love. we say that god is love. you see the bible as this rule book but it was not quite intended to be that. its a love letter. page to page you see hoe much god was trying to get in contact with his people. there are stories of his mercy and promises and victories. many of you have heard them i'm sure.

I have also heard stories about god killing people, demanding sacrifices, sending plagues on people, ordering them to kill each other and so forth. How do these stories fit into god's love?

Focusedoc wrote:
what would you think if you saw a complete stranger jump right in front of you or push you out of the way. you ask them "dude, what are you doing?" and they say "i was trying save your life, i thought that was a gun shot ". annoying as you may find them, think about what their intentions were.

What would you do if the same thing happened to you, but you heard no noise at all?

What would you do if some guy came up and took your purse, telling you that there's a bomb inside. You may have not seen it or heard it, but you should just trust him because he knows. Would you give him your bag?

Focusedoc wrote:
you guys think of him in the way you do because you dont understand him and you dont know him.

But you don't understand him or know him either, right? Didn't you say that you can't understand or know him?

Focusedoc wrote:
you curse him if he is up there and wont bother to try to get to know him.

No athiest curses god. Why don't you bother to try to know zeus or osiris or zoroaster?

Focusedoc wrote:
he needed an object to love. thats why we are here. but, he is also a just god, and he will send some people to be far away from him for eternity. the damnation in hell is not the fire or lucifer but its eternal seperation from god.

So you're saying that god loves me less than my parents do? They love me unconditionally and wouldn't send me away for eternity. In fact, they couldn't if they wanted to because of the fact that they love me.


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Focusedoc wrote: aside

Focusedoc wrote:

aside from that being funny, its not quite the same thing. god is not a being that we say, "hey, i swear he is up there". he is a father who cares.

Saying "God cares" is not an explanation. The elf probably cares too. You're just dancing around the question instead of approaching it honestly. This offers no more reason to take God seriously than it does the elf.

Quote:
 

so if you told me that there was an elf sitting or dancing in my eye brow and said it wanted to have a relationship with me and tries all the time to talk to me, i would laugh.

which is funny because you haven't given a good reason why God makes more sense than the elf.

Quote:
 

but i would for entertainment purposes ask, "o yeah, how do i get in contact with him then". wouldn't many people on some level think that. if i told you some ghost was trying to contact you, wouldn't you at least want to know, even as a joke, how you can reach him. the thing is many of you have not been curious. maybe i am a curious person. god is not just a unicorn or zues. in fact, many other peoples gods dont care about having a relationship with them.

Still going on about how god cares and wants a relationship?

It's still not a good reason for believing it.

Continue.

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there god is tyrannical.

All other god concepts aside from yours are tyrannical? Well that just smacks of ignorance left and right.

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though you think our god is, we call him love.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

A tyrant by any other name is still a tyrant.

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we say that god is love. you see the bible as this rule book

I don't see it as a rule book. I see it as a work of fiction---a piece of mythology the same way I see "The Odyssey" or "Oedepus Rex". It might have some cute moral concepts embroidered into it, but so do Aesop's Fables. It's just an obsolete piece of history. Cool to study, stupid to take seriously.

Quote:
 

but it was not quite intended to be that. its a love letter. page to page you see hoe much god was trying to get in contact with his people. there are stories of his mercy and promises and victories.

Turning them into salt, drowning them in worldwide floods, dropping oceans on top of them, commanding them to kill their own children, giving them permission to treat women like cattle, killing babies, and so on and so forth.

Your reaction is probably something like "well you're purposely emphasizing all of that stuff to make him look bad." No, I'm just demonstrating that YOU are purposely emphasizing the OTHER things to make him look good. Atheists like to call it "cherry-picking".

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many of you have heard them i'm sure. our god is a loving one and doesn't require us to where cloth over our faces.

Did you just say that? That's so arrogant and ignorant. Your religion requires you (or allows you) to do things that another religion would think was bizarre or possibly even silly.

Consider the following: In our country it's rude to NOT look someone in the eye when speaking to them or being spoken to by them. In other traditions, it's rude if you DO make eye contact. It's more polite to look away.

Consider the following: In current tradition, man and woman are equal in all respects except gender (or at least are thought about in that way). In older Christian tradition (yes, that includes yours), when women were married, they were literally understood to be owned by the man. Not just his wife. Not just subservient to him in a respectful, pretty kind of way. The man literally owned her in the way that he owned a new couch.

Has it ever occured to you that they don't MIND wearing cloth over their faces? Just like you never think about why you make eye contact instead of NOT making eye contact, they just wear cloth over their faces because that's the world they live in. It's likely that most of them never even think about it.

Stop putting yourself and your religion at the center of the world and the world will look like a much better place. You're probably not inclined to think so, but trust me: It does.

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more over, other people claim to have the truth about their faith, in one way or the other, the key to some form of salvation for mankind.

And the fact that they ALL do this has never seemed suspicious to you?

Oh, but yours is the RIGHT one. Because god cares and the other gods don't. Right. Forgot. Sorry.

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why aren't they even sharing it.

Well, some of them have tried before, and then some Christians got angry and killed them. Not saying you would, but hey. These are things you have to consider.

Go to the middle east and I'm sure someone would be more than happy to tell you about Allah. You just live in a nation where most people are Christian.

Quote:
 

you may see christians as annoying but they are trying to tell you that they care for what is going to happen to your soul. what would you do if a loud noise went off one day as you were walking down the street at night. what would you think if you saw a complete stranger jump right in front of you or push you out of the way. you ask them "dude, what are you doing?" and they say "i was trying save your life, i thought that was a gun shot ". annoying as you may find them, think about what their intentions were.

Yeah, but I know that gunshots actually exist. I've heard them. I've seen them. I've FIRED A GUN. Claiming that you were trying to save me from a gunshot---which I would have heard and could verify for myself---is not the same as claiming that you are saving me from incineration in Hell (Christianity), a flood of fire and magma (Zoroastrianism), or the gaze of Sauron (Lord of the Rings).

This is why I have decided that analogies no longer count as explanations. I refuse to let Christians use them when they debate me because they almost invariably fail to use them correctly. 

 

Quote:

our god is a god of love. being that you dont understand him, and if he did exist, likely wouldn't like him because of all of his ways, realize this... you guys think of him in the way you do because you dont understand him and you dont know him.

I think it's you who fails to understand him. I think you BELIEVE you understand him, but you don't.

Quote:
 

you curse him if he is up there and wont bother to try to get to know him.

I grew up in a Christian household. I deconverted sometime between my Junior/Senior year in high school. I used to be in a praise band! Go figure!

Quote:
 

i know god, he is my best friend.

What does that mean exactly? I hear Christians say this incredibly often, and it occurs to me that these are probably often used as prescriptive answers.

what do you know about him?

what has he done for you that qualifies him as your "best friend"?

Quote:
 

i read the bible and i see him as a god of love.

Only because you want to.

Quote:
 

he is love which is why this perfect being created.

Zoroaster created before he did.

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he needed an object to love.

Curious that you know this with so much certainty. How so?

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thats why we are here.

Nope. 

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but, he is also a just god, and he will send some people to be far away from him for eternity. the damnation in hell is not the fire or lucifer but its eternal seperation from god.

Is this supposed to make him sound less like a tyrant? If God really wanted to separate the sinners from the non-sinners, or just the sinners from himself, why did he have to create Hell for them?

Here's a possibility: the non-sinning god-believers go to heaven and get an eternal reward. The sinful skeptics just die and cease to exist. Separation accomplished!

Here's another possiblity: the non-sinning god-believers go to heaven and get an eternal reward. The sinful skeptics go to another place far away that does not involve fire and torture. Maybe it's just really boring there. Maybe they all just get thrown into a huge, empty warehouse for all eternity. What's the point of all the fire and torture?

Answer: Your god is not love. 

 

Quote:

amen...

Thanks for agreeing.

See you at the next poor defense of your faith. =) 

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Focusedoc wrote: i dont

Focusedoc wrote:
i dont know if you were ever a christian. you were a christian by practice but what a real christian is, is a person who is in love with god. not cause of what they hear about him but because they know him personally. you spend time with him and he speaks with you. you experienced him in a real way in your life. many people say they are christians becuase they go to church, pray before they eat, and read the bible. many do it out of fear of going to hell cause they dont actually understand what it REALLY means to be a christian. we take on christs name and call ourselves christians. we share in him as a family. so how can you say you were a christian, by that definition and then say you questioned god. the most real things about god are in your intimate relationship with him, that so called christians have never had. if you were like me, and had this, no matter what people tell you, you cannot doubt god. simply because you knew him personally. you never got personal with god. you never experienced him. you never knew him dude. you were never a christian. you were nominally but not actually.

I find this whole "you were never a Christian" thing pretty judgemental and derogatory. I also saw this same idea expressed by the guy on the "righteous responders" youtube site. As someone who has been a Christian for many years, but currently going through a process of evaluating everything I believe (see this thread if you are interested) -  http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/10043 - I am quite offended by the suggestion that someone who deconverts was never a Christian in the first place. My faith was absolutely genuine, I believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and I repented of my sins. However I am now at a point in my life where I am asking some hard questions of myself and others, and at this point it is very hard to justify a continuance in my Christian faith for many reasons which have been gone into at length on the other thread. I am not prepared to live with a blind faith where  I refuse to accept that I may be wrong, which seems to be a common trait amongst Christians both here and in the real world.  I am still trying to process a whole lot of things about my beliefs and where my life goes from here, however my Christianity (and I'm sure that of others on here) was 100% genuine.


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focusedoc wrote: i dont

focusedoc wrote:
i dont know if you were ever a christian. you were a christian by practice but what a real christian is, is a person who is in love with god. not cause of what they hear about him but because they know him personally. you spend time with him and he speaks with you. you experienced him in a real way in your life.

Dude, the voices in your head aren't God. They have pills for that.

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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simmo wrote: Focusedoc

simmo wrote:
Focusedoc wrote:
i dont know if you were ever a christian. you were a christian by practice but what a real christian is, is a person who is in love with god. not cause of what they hear about him but because they know him personally. you spend time with him and he speaks with you. you experienced him in a real way in your life. many people say they are christians becuase they go to church, pray before they eat, and read the bible. many do it out of fear of going to hell cause they dont actually understand what it REALLY means to be a christian. we take on christs name and call ourselves christians. we share in him as a family. so how can you say you were a christian, by that definition and then say you questioned god. the most real things about god are in your intimate relationship with him, that so called christians have never had. if you were like me, and had this, no matter what people tell you, you cannot doubt god. simply because you knew him personally. you never got personal with god. you never experienced him. you never knew him dude. you were never a christian. you were nominally but not actually.

I find this whole "you were never a Christian" thing pretty judgemental and derogatory. I also saw this same idea expressed by the guy on the "righteous responders" youtube site. As someone who has been a Christian for many years, but currently going through a process of evaluating everything I believe (see this thread if you are interested) - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/10043 - I am quite offended by the suggestion that someone who deconverts was never a Christian in the first place. My faith was absolutely genuine, I believed in Jesus Christ as Lord and I repented of my sins. However I am now at a point in my life where I am asking some hard questions of myself and others, and at this point it is very hard to justify a continuance in my Christian faith for many reasons which have been gone into at length on the other thread. I am not prepared to live with a blind faith where I refuse to accept that I may be wrong, which seems to be a common trait amongst Christians both here and in the real world. I am still trying to process a whole lot of things about my beliefs and where my life goes from here, however my Christianity (and I'm sure that of others on here) was 100% genuine.

 

Thank you for chipping in on this, Simmo, and you're absolutely correct. I was very happy to see you of all people offering the rebuttal here. It's just as valid when an atheist brings it up, but since you are still in a sort of state of limbo (if I'm not mistaken), the rebuttal is much stronger.

It's typically called the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, identifiable by the following characteristics:

1) A claim is made about the subject "A".

2) The presented claim about A is refuted.

3) The definition of A is slightly adjusted after the fact.

Observe:

Quote:

Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus, who is a Scotsman, likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Aye, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

 

 

Happens all the time. I somewhat begrudgingly admit that some atheists have been known to do this as well.

"No TRUE atheist would reconvert."

"Unless you deconverted, you're not a TRUE atheist."

etc, etc.

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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Yeah, but a lot of converts

Yeah, but a lot of converts say self-invalidating shit, like, "I used to be an evolutionist...," meaning they don't really get the idea that science and religion aren't just two tribal identifiers in competition on similar grounds.


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magilum wrote: Yeah, but a

magilum wrote:
Yeah, but a lot of converts say self-invalidating shit, like, "I used to be an evolutionist...," meaning they don't really get the idea that science and religion aren't just two tribal identifiers in competition on similar grounds.

 

Acknowledged. =) 

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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Fish wrote:

Fish wrote:


Focusedoc wrote:
the thing is many of you have not been curious.


really?

Focusedoc wrote:
its cool that you guys study him so much and our faith


isn't that what curious means?




no you have been curious about the knowledge of. but not knowing him personally. very different. if i study beyonces life and i think i know her, i dont know her personally.

Quote:
Focusedoc wrote:
god is not just a unicorn or zues.


How do you know? I thought it was impossible to know god fully. How can you know for a fact that god is not a unicorn or zeus? Perhaps god is doing something you don't understand.




he does give us some of himself clearly. he suggests to be somebody to us. he doesn't suggest to be some remarkable being. he has given us his form. thats jesus is. our connection to god.

Quote:
Focusedoc wrote:
there god is tyrannical. though you think our god is, we call him love. we say that god is love. you see the bible as this rule book but it was not quite intended to be that. its a love letter. page to page you see hoe much god was trying to get in contact with his people. there are stories of his mercy and promises and victories. many of you have heard them i'm sure.


I have also heard stories about god killing people, demanding sacrifices, sending plagues on people, ordering them to kill each other and so forth. How do these stories fit into god's love?




i answered this already, that was in the old the testament. when jesus came, he came to reconcile us with god the father. he stopped doing that after jesus came. he was wrathful and after jesus came, he was peace. the prince of peace.

Quote:
Focusedoc wrote:
what would you think if you saw a complete stranger jump right in front of you or push you out of the way. you ask them "dude, what are you doing?" and they say "i was trying save your life, i thought that was a gun shot ". annoying as you may find them, think about what their intentions were.


What would you do if the same thing happened to you, but you heard no noise at all?

What would you do if some guy came up and took your purse, telling you that there's a bomb inside. You may have not seen it or heard it, but you should just trust him because he knows. Would you give him your bag?




no one is trying to take your purse promising there is a bomb inside tho. your example doesn't have real meaning. i dont get it, sorry. christians dont try to take your bag to save you from a bomb. even if you said a gay persons right to marriage or womens right to choose, it still wouldn't fit that model. no one is saying that at all. its not the same.

Quote:
Focusedoc wrote:
you guys think of him in the way you do because you dont understand him and you dont know him.


But you don't understand him or know him either, right? Didn't you say that you can't understand or know him?




i said we dont get him fully clearly because he is our creator. not that we dont know a thing about him. if we admitted we didn't, we wouldnt have a religion.

Quote:
Focusedoc wrote:
you curse him if he is up there and wont bother to try to get to know him.


No athiest curses god. Why don't you bother to try to know zeus or osiris or zoroaster?




they do. maybe not you but i see F^ god t shirts all the time. i know many atheists that think if he did exist he would suck. blasphemers on your challege cursed god. i work in manhattan where new york atheists are so liberal and atheist yet curse god. someone on this forum did saying if he met god , he would curse him out. i said if you believed he exists, you would curse him.

Quote:
Focusedoc wrote:
he needed an object to love. thats why we are here. but, he is also a just god, and he will send some people to be far away from him for eternity. the damnation in hell is not the fire or lucifer but its eternal seperation from god.


So you're saying that god loves me less than my parents do? They love me unconditionally and wouldn't send me away for eternity. In fact, they couldn't if they wanted to because of the fact that they love me.




your parents love for you but if you did wrong, i'm sure they would send you off to jail or a nut house. parents do that all the time. if your not behaving, they punish you. some parents are strange and when their child does something wrong, they don't react. parents like that raise rotten kids.



besides, god is also our friend. he OFFERs you the chance to love him. if you are deliberately choosing not to be with him, why should he force you too for eternity. he is a gentleman and does not force himself.
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thats all for now folks,

thats all for now folks, ill get the rest for you later. and i'm not close minded or else i wouldnt be here. i am not trying to convert you clearly i hope you see that. its impossible anyway as many of you have already said what you did against the spirit.

 

but i'm not here to be converted either. lets exchange knowledge.... 


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Focusedoc wrote: no one is

Focusedoc wrote:
no one is trying to take your purse promising there is a bomb inside tho. your example doesn't have real meaning. i dont get it, sorry. christians dont try to take your bag to save you from a bomb. even if you said a gay persons right to marriage or womens right to choose, it still wouldn't fit that model. no one is saying that at all. its not the same.

Let's use the example you give, since you keep coming back to gays.

You say to a gay person "being gay is wrong, you need to stop"

He says "why?"

You say "because you'll go to hell"

He says "what? why would you say that"

You say "just trust me"

You see, being gay is the bag, you want to take that away (saying it's wrong) becuase they will suffer forever if they don't (the bomb). The person has never seen or heard the bomb and has no reason to believe that it's there, you just want that person to take it on your word. The analogy seems quite apt.


Focusedoc wrote:
i said we dont get him fully clearly because he is our creator. not that we dont know a thing about him. if we admitted we didn't, we wouldnt have a religion.

How can you be sure that you know anything about him if he is capable of doing anything to trick you?


Focusedoc wrote:
no matter what you say, how can you out smart one that created you. in descares theory (i know someone said it was dumb), but realize how he said the being that created him can manipulate him into thinking everytime he adds two plus two it equals four. since this being is above him, the answer could really be five but he is subjected to his creator, limits. god gives us all limits. limited knowledge and wisdom. so even if you think he is a fairy tale, in this fairy tale, how could one out smart their creator. if he did give you a brain, he made it imperfect and not infinatley knowledgable to all things like he is. you would always bump into that wall. so in our "fairy tale" called christianity, your trying to disprove this beings existance is self defeating, in that you never can.

Focusedoc wrote:
he does give us some of himself clearly. he suggests to be somebody to us. he doesn't suggest to be some remarkable being. he has given us his form. thats jesus is. our connection to god.

This is very confusing. First you're saying that god is tricking everyone into thinking he is not there (i.e. 2+2=5), but you're also saying that you know god. So how do you know that he isn't tricking you? Don't you admit that he could? So how do you know that god isn't a unicorn that is tricking you into thinking he's jesus? Surely this is something that god could do, right?

Why does god torment people by not allowing them to understand or know him?

Focusedoc wrote:
they do. maybe not you but i see F^ god t shirts all the time. i know many atheists that think if he did exist he would suck. blasphemers on your challege cursed god. i work in manhattan where new york atheists are so liberal and atheist yet curse god. someone on this forum did saying if he met god , he would curse him out. i said if you believed he exists, you would curse him.

To say that an atheist curses god would be a contradiction. Atheists do not believe in god, so how can you curse something that doesn't exist. If someone says "i'm an atheist, but i really do curse god" then that person must believe in god, and so isn't atheist. It's still possible to say "i curse god" without beliving in god, but then the statement doesn't really have any meaning.

The person on this forum you are referring to said that if god were real he would curse at him, yes, but that's not quite the same thing. I don't know if you read his entire post, but he would be angry because god punishes people for doing things that they have no reason to believe are wrong. He doesn't believe god exists though, and so he doesn't curse him now.

I certainly do not curse god. Since there is no god to curse, why would I waste my time? If I believed he existed I probably wouldn't either, since that would be a silly thing to do.

Focusedoc wrote:
your parents love for you but if you did wrong, i'm sure they would send you off to jail or a nut house. parents do that all the time. if your not behaving, they punish you. some parents are strange and when their child does something wrong, they don't react. parents like that raise rotten kids.

If I did something wrong, and my parents sent me away, they would still visit me. They would still want to make sure that I was as comfortable and happy as I could be. They would still want me to come home as soon as I possibly could. God does none of those things, and therefore he must love me less.

Focusedoc wrote:
besides, god is also our friend. he OFFERs you the chance to love him. if you are deliberately choosing not to be with him, why should he force you too for eternity. he is a gentleman and does not force himself.

I see. So a gentleman is someone who offers you candy at gunpoint and shoots you when you refuse? Maybe I would curse your god if he were real, since he just gets worse and worse.


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Quote: thats all for now

Quote:

thats all for now folks, ill get the rest for you later. and i'm not close minded or else i wouldnt be here. i am not trying to convert you clearly i hope you see that. its impossible anyway as many of you have already said what you did against the spirit.

 

but i'm not here to be converted either. lets exchange knowledge....

That's just why you're closedminded.  You're not here to exchange any meaningful knowledge.  You want to know what us "wrong" atheists believe.  You're convinced that you're right, and have a system worked out where you never have to question your beliefs.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't impress me that you want to understand how the deluded minds of atheists work.  That's not being openminded.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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No True Scotsman Real Deconversion

It is pretty obvious that the typical attempt at claiming a person was never really Christian is a desperation move by quite a few Christians to be able to discount anything that the skeptic says. So confusing are statements like "I believed and then through studying stopped believing" to these Christians that they would rather nip the concept at the source than to deal with the possibility that something so “shallow” as purposeful studying could be the cause of one to walk away from their god. The same goes for citations of authors who were once Christians and are now atheists. They could never have really been theists if they are saying these things now, so goes the implications in their weary minds.

For so many believers, the crux of belief is always based on feeling one’s way through whatever a conflict is emotionally, philosophically, and (for an alarming number of stupid people) scientifically charged. "I feel that God wants me to study biology at university" is a completely valid claim in a theist's mind, just as “I knelt down and prayed that god would reveal himself to me” works when “witnessing” first person episodes about how one came to god. The process is so utterly self gratifying that anything else seems too much effort in the end, which is certainly the case for Focusedoc.

The feelings are the crux, not any discovery based on knowledge or circumspection about the real world or why we humans have this base level need to feel protected by a higher source, a paternal figure who can make things better or at least protect us from the big bad unknown danger. In fact, further investigation after a witnessing episode by a Christian or any other theist is typically not required. After someone makes a proclamation of god belief based on feelings the flock froths at the mouth, speaks in tongues, or otherwise engages in group hugs while passing a box of tissues around. Then it’s the next guy’s turn ad infinitum every bloody week for the rest of your life.

That anyone could ever walk away from this cultish behavior would have to be because this person never really felt the truth to begin with, a monstrously presumptuous position to hold by any reasonable standards. That people change their minds about Santa Claus or the tooth fairy in the same way is lost on them, in fact so much so that they will refuse to accept the comparison of something so obviously childish with their god who is clearly adult so they say. What was it Focusedoc said of these examples, that they were humorous? Yet she knows all too well that she stopped believing in the former myths for the same reasons atheists don’t believe, or more importantly in this case, stopped believing in her god using the same cognitive process that has led her to this conclusion. This acceptance is too close to home I think, and for that reason she will more than likely hang on to this notion for as long as she can, maybe forever.

There is no repeatability requirement to witnessing or references to the perennial “Jesus take the wheel” kind of thinking. For that reason, all forms of theism are just as intellectually bankrupt as the others. An atheist can say this with no special pleading required, any monotheist holding to their own god concept over others cannot do the same. This fact is painfully obvious to anyone giving a modicum of honest effort to see the implications. As a defense strategy perhaps, or a stick in the mud act of denial, these stalwart theists use the tool they can gerrymander as a reasonable out; their god has personally told them that he is real and all the others are fake. All one needs as a theist it seems is the belief justification to be qualified on feelings and then connected to whichever god is convenient to make the entire process valid in their eyes. And then they can hide behind this idea, or better, bury their heads in it, when faced with the lack of any kind of measured intelligence in coming to that conclusion. It would be funny if it were not for the fact that it is still so prevalent. This is why many theists simply ignore contradictory evidence about gods in general. "They feel him this way and I feel him that way" is all that is needed to make reconciliations in these theists’ minds. That feelings is what binds their justifications and not facts will forever be lost on the most gullibly inflicted, like they are on Focusedoc and her ostrich-like approach to these questions.

I wonder how valid her political science professors would rate her justifications of say the way in which the Iraq war will eventually end. Is it enough for her premise to be that “I feel” the US will win and pull out in two years? I doubt even she would give this answer much credence given all the unknown elements in this conflict. Yet, when it comes to her god construct (one no doubt shoveled down her throat when she was younger), she spouts equally nonsensical crap post after post.

I liken this brainwashing to the type of trickery done in a Saturday evening stage performance of Peter Pan. At the end when Tinkerbell is dying, the cast members beg all the children to simply believe in fairies, less Tinkerbell die of her imagined injuries. Then with some lights and a well rehearsed magic show, Tinkerbell tinkles her way back to life and all is good. The greatest of ironies in this example in my mind is the one we see when we scan the audience of adults smiling at the process that has taken hold of their children. They know all too well that it is lights and sound and a neatly crafted display of smoke and mirrors. They also know that as neat as the show is for their children now, they will eventually get that it was all for fun, a bit of play on the imagination of a child. Knowing this and understanding these implications, these same parents, in party with what has to be the biggest scam ever created by humanity, will get up the next morning, dress themselves and their kids in their Sunday best, and then go and watch another stage performance just as reminiscent of smoke and mirrors as the night before. And the parents buy it hook, line, and sinker!

I pity these people, I really do. To willingly tie your future intelligence and worldview and the future of your children’s intelligence and worldview to a belief in a celestial Tinkerbell is sad indeed. That the process is so endemic and pervasive that it annually sacrifices people like Focusedoc to recalled witnessing episodes, disjointed and mind numbing displays of poor thinking skills, and ineffectually abusive behavior, is all the more reason why we have to keep up this fight.

For Tinkerbell’s, sake, I implore us all to keep up the fight!

Cheers!


magilum
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I don't think we can get

I don't think we can get far with this debate on appeals to logic, when it's obvious from the start this whole thing is rooted in emotion. She was bothered enough to write the e-mail, but didn't have an argument; then she was surprised to get any flack for it. The whole thing was about lashing out against a threat to her world view; there aren't any ideas to explore, or that can be introduced, because the position was never a rational one to begin with. As non-judgmentally as possible, I point out that traumatic experiences had driven her to seek alternatives to an indifferent universe, if only imagined ones.

I was listening to an RRS show that features a young woman who had overcome drug addiction. She flatly rejected the notion that it was she who had done it herself, that she was strong enough to change her life, no god necessary. I think we all reach these states of emotional exhaustion, and some people see this weakness, and knowingly or not, see the opportunity to convert a person. This is how cults work, and all religions are cults. With a supportive community, or maybe because the subconscious has worked the problem out, or after having gotten a good rest, people tend to bounce back. Only for some people, there is that opportunist who robs the person of their victory, and spits on the very idea of cause and effect: the person who tells them that god did it.


Dadvocate
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On the art of logical application

[b]Magilum[b],

 

       I appreciate that you hold to the credo that non-judgemental approcahes to those caught in the sticky web of theism are the way to go. I do respect that stance in those who have the wherewithal to keep to that line.

 

       I used to myself but have come to expect the same in return before I will give a person that level of respect. If they are unwilling to demonstrate that they have a desire to honor this process themselves, then frankly speaking the heavy hand is what they shall get inasmuch as I am able to disseminate it.

 

       When I go too far (this happens enough for sure) I get called on my language by both atheists and theists. When I have crossed the line, I like to think that I am honest enough to admit it.

 

       If only Focusedoc were willing to do the same.

 

       I agree that emotions are the driving force to much of what happens in these exchanges, and that would certainly include mine as well at specific times. I've enjoyed your leveled posts for what it is worth. You are certainly more patient than I am.

 

       Cheers!