What is your point? [You Respond]

Gizmo
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What is your point? [You Respond]

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Tasha (Tashaazor@yahoo.com) sent a message using the contact form at http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

For the life of me, i can't see why you bother to try and destroy religion.
you never can. its not a place or a practice. its something in ones heart.
how can you destroy that.  for a group of people that don't believe in god, you spend all day and all night thinking about him. your lives are dedicated to disproving him so much. for something you feel is not true, you spend a lot of time on. i dont try and disprove the existence of santa or the tooth fairy cause i simply know its a lie. honestly, if i ever had a doubt about god being real, your whole "movement" assures me he is. he must be to get all this attention. in fact, you are proving him to be true just by proving his word true. the bible says people like you would say just what you say and do just what you do. this was all predicted. your actually fulfilling prophecy that you are trying to prove false. if you want to convince me god isn't real, live as such. dont post up a whole website and debate nationally with believers. what are you so upset about if its all a myth. i saw your debate on abc and you guys looked annoyed and sarcastic. i cant help but to think, why get so heated about it then.
go home, eat sleep and wake up without god for all we care. religion does not cause conflict, ethics do. people will always disagree about things.
if religion never existed, we would still fight about anything. its the human condition, that we must disagree. honestly, you guys come off more like satanists. it seems more like the devil set you up to do and say all you do. whether or not you accept that, everyone out there knows that this is true. how is evolution rational to you rational response team? how can anything come from nothing. you CANNOT prove that the earth was just simply made by gases. who made the gases? who made the "thing" that made the gases? it will never make sense. why just stop at saying that the gases were just there. lets figure out who made them. without that, how can we ever satisfy the question of "where did creation come from". you guys are stupid and i would love to talk to you some day. you dont make sense period! god is real! if he wasn't, you wouldn't spend all this time on him

Thank you,

and God Bless

We haven't done this in a while, so I figured some might want to hop on this one.   


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Quote: For the life of me,

Quote:
For the life of me, i can't see why you bother to try and destroy religion.
you never can. its not a place or a practice. its something in ones heart. [...]

*Screeeeeeeeeeeeeech*

Say what? That may be your version of it, but that ain't the popular view. Many Christians in America want to legislate their views, and convert the entire world. The same goes for Muslims. So, yeah, your premise doesn't reflect reality.


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A community college instructor in Red Oak claims he was fired after he told his students that the biblical story of Adam and Eve should not be literally interpreted.

Steve Bitterman, 60, said officials at Southwestern Community College sided with a handful of students who threatened legal action over his remarks in a western civilization class Tuesday. He said he was fired Thursday.

*******

Conservative Christians' assault on all things sexual knows no boundaries. Every aspect of sexual pleasure or entertainment that isn't directed at the specific purpose of procreation, and within the context of marriage, will inevitably become a target. Even masturbation done in privacy can become a target, if the state already has an excuse to exercise authority over one's life. Recently, prison officials in Florida charged a number of prisoners with "indecent exposure" for masturbating while alone in their cells.

Terry Lee Alexander, 20, of Lauderdale Lakes, Florida, was sentenced to a further 60 days in jail on top of the 10-year term he is currently serving for armed robbery, the Miami Herald reported yesterday. ...In reaching their verdict on Tuesday, jurors decided that an inmate's cell was "a limited access public place" where exposing oneself was against the law. ...
The prisoner's lawyer, Kathleen McHugh, failed to get him cleared on the grounds that a cell was a private place and what Alexander was doing was perfectly normal. "Did other inmates start masturbating because of Mr Alexander?" Ms McHugh asked Ms [Coryus] Veal. "Did you call a Swat team?"

"I wish I had," the deputy replied.

Source: BBC

*********

Council of Europe to vote on creationism next week


By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor Tue Sep 25, 12:48 PM ET

PARIS (Reuters) - Europe's main human rights body will vote next week on a resolution opposing the teaching of creationist and intelligent design views in school science classes.

The Council of Europe's Parliamentary Assembly will debate a resolution saying attacks on the theory of evolution were rooted "in forms of religious extremism" and amounted to a dangerous assault on science and human rights.

The resolution, on the agenda for October 4, says European schools should "resist presentation of creationist ideas in any discipline other than religion." It describes the "intelligent design" argument as an updated version of creationism.

**************

Tory said if he's elected premier Oct. 10, private religious schools could opt into the public system and still teach their core beliefs.

"It's still called the theory of evolution," Tory said. "They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs."

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THE ULTIMATE OUTSIDERS? NEW REPORT CASTS ATHEISTS AS "OTHERS" BEYOND MORALITY AND COMMUNITY IN AMERICA

 

Atheists have become the ultimate scapegoats in our culture ... but the news isn't all bad!

 

Web Posted: March 25, 2006

A new study by the University of Minnesota Department of Sociology has found that Americans perceive Atheists as the group least likely to embrace common values and a shared vision of society.

Worse yet, Atheists are identified as the cohort other Americans do not want to see their offspring marrying!

These are just some of the result from a forthcoming article slated for publication in the American Sociological Review by Penny Edgell, Joseph Gerties and Douglas Hartmann. The research is part of the American Mosaic Project which monitors attitudes of the population in respect to minority groups. AANEWS obtained an advanced copy of the study that was based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households.

Researchers concluded: "Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry."

*******************

Video God in the Military - The Pentagon and its Christian Embassy

Lou Dobbs

Thanks to CruciFiction for the link.

August 6, 2007. Lou Dobbs, CNN. Top generals in the Pentagon formed a Christian proselytizing organization called, "The Christian Embassy", to work within the ranks of the US military.

"God in the Military - The Pentagon and its Christian
Embassy"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1F-vWVhBOw

 

 

********************

 

BILL TO PUNISH FIRST AMENDMENT LITIGATION CLEARS COMMITTEE, READY FOR HOUSE VOTE!

The House Judiciary Committee has passed the so-called “Public Expression of Religion Act.” The measure is ready for a vote by the U.S. House of Representatives. Congress needs to hear from you now!

The bill, H.R. 2679, introduced by Rep. John Hostettler (R-IN) would amend a section of the United States Code and eliminate attorney fees in legal cases where government violated the constitutional separation of church and state. PERA is part of a battery of proposed legislative items dubbed “The American Values Agenda.” This includes measure to protect “unborn children,” ban cloning and penalize legal challenges to violations of the First Amendment’s establishment clause

Hostettler and supporters of H.R. 2679 claim that attorneys working for organizations that defend the First Amendment and challenge unconstitutional governmental practices in respect to religion are enriching themselves and even violating the rights of believers. The American Legion has launched a national campaign to support PERA, and is calling for “a ground swell of public demand on lawmakers” to pass the bill immediately. A “guide” to PERA issued by this group states: “There simply is no reasonable basis to support the profiteering in attorney fee awards ordered by judges in these (Establishment Clause) cases. The very threat of such fees has made elected bodies, large and small, surrender to … demands to secularly cleanse the public square.”

 

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We really have dinosaurs today, without any question. You just need the right weather conditions, as I see it, to get huge creatures. And in the ocean, of course, we have huge creatures....this is where the plesiosauruses seem to be today, and perhaps also this fire breathing dragon is still down there -- very rare, but occasionally there.

--Rev. Walter Lang
Founder,
Bible-Science Association

******************

From the 2006 Republican Party of Texas Platform:

2. We believe that human life is sacred, created in the image of God. Life begins at the moment of fertilization and ends at the point of natural death. All innocent human life must be protected.

5. We believe that traditional marriage is a legal and moral commitment between a natural man and a natural woman. We recognize that the family is the foundational unit of a healthy society and consists of those related by blood, marriage, or adoption. The family is responsible for its own welfare, education, moral training, conduct, and property,

p.8, Christian Nation: "The Republican Party of Texas affirms the United States of America is a Christian Nation ..."

p. 8: Faith-Based opportunites should be increased. Until that time, "Faith-based Initiatives as proposed by President George W. Bush and currently implemented, should continue to be funded by federal monies. (In other words, the Church should assume responsibility for welfare and education. These programs would be funded through tithing -- collecting 10% of church members' income -- and through community, and business contributions. Until the churches have taken over welfare, the government would fund these programs.)

Until such time as such unconstitutional spending programs are repealed, we believe that the faith-based initiative as proposed by President George W. Bush, and currently implemented, should continue to receive federal monies.

***********

From: http://www.theocracywatch.org/clarkson_inside.html

To further please Robertson, Bush greeted over 100 major Christian Coalition donors and invited guests at a private reception in the rose garden of Pat Robertson's walled estate. With black swans gliding by on a pond and a harpist playing Pachelbel's "Canon in D Minor," the televangelist personally introduced members of his "inner circle" to the presidential candidate, mentioning their "help" or their "contributions."

 

**********************

Man dies after Phoenix 'exorcism'

July 29, 2007

PHOENIX -- Officers responding to a report of an exorcism on a young girl found her grandfather choking her and used stun guns to subdue the man, who later died, authorities said Sunday.

The 3-year-old girl and her mother, who was also in the room during the struggle between 49-year-old Ronald Marquez and officers, were hospitalized, police said. Their condition was unavailable.

The relative who called police said an exorcism had also been attempted Thursday.

''The purpose was to release demons from this very young child,'' said Sgt. Joel Tranter.

Officers arrived at the house Saturday and entered when they heard screaming coming from a bedroom, Tranter said.

A bed had been pushed up against the door; the officers pushed it open a few inches and saw Marquez choking his bloodied granddaughter, who was crying in pain and gasping, Tranter said.

A bloody, naked 19-year-old woman who police later determined to be Marquez's daughter and the girl's mother was in the room, chanting ''something that was religious in nature,'' Tranter said.

The officers forced open the door enough for one to enter, leading to a struggle in which an officer used a stun gun on Marquez, Tranter said.

After the initial stun had no visible effect, another officer squeezed into the room and stunned him. The girl was freed and passed through the door to the relative, Tranter said.

Marquez was placed in handcuffs after a struggle with officers and initially appeared normal, but then stopped breathing, Tranter said. He could not be revived and was pronounced dead at a hospital.

The cause of death was not immediately known, and autopsy results probably will not be available for several weeks, Tranter said.

Tranter declined to identify Marquez's daughter and granddaughter but said they lived in the house with Marquez.

The mother was not arrested, but police will consider criminal charges, Tranter said.

There was no phone listing at Ronald Marquez's address.

 

**************

San Jose Mercury News, 1992, Two articles -- one before the election, one after:

A group dedicated to making the Bible the law of the land has quietly positioned itself to take over the Republican Party's power structure in Santa Clara County.

The 17 Christian right candidates for the Republican Central Committee appear on a mailer put out by a Tehama County group called Citizens for Liberty. The flier says the candidates advocate "traditional family values, more jobs, lower taxes, welfare reform and choice in education."

But at least some have a more sweeping agenda ... Some see takeover plans. More liberal Republicans say the Central Committee campaign is part of a widespread "stealth" effort to take over America by starting with little-noticed local races. They cite elections in San Diego County two years ago, when 60 of 90 Christian right candidates for low-level offices won election, largely by campaigning through conservative churches.

"Clearly the strategy is to control the central committees and then use the central committees to give credibility to their candidates," said Luis Buhler...

A fundraising letter ... includes "a call for the death penalty for abortion, adultery and unrepentant homosexuality."

***********************

 

Paul Weyrich, speaking in Dallas in 1980, captured the spirit of this new movement. He said,

"We are talking about Christianizing America. We are talking about simply spreading the gospel in a political context."

********************

Jerry Falwell, who became the leader of the Moral Majority said: "get them saved, get them Baptized, and get them registered." (These two quotes can be heard on the video produced by People for the American Way called Life And Liberty for All Who Believe.)

***********************

 

In 1988 Pat Robertson ran for President in the Republican Primaries and lost to George Bush Sr. In 1989 the Moral Majority disbanded. A lot of people concerned about the Religious Right breathed a deep sigh of relief. But there was one strange event that should have been a warning sign.

Pat Robertson beat Vice President George Bush Sr. in the Iowa Republican caucuses. How did Pat Robertson beat the Vice President in that state? Members of his campaign worked precinct by precinct to take over the party leadership at the local level until, eventually, they controlled the state party apparatus.

In March, 1986, I (Joan Bokaer) was on a speaking tour in Iowa and received a copy of the following memo Robertson had distributed to the Iowa Republican County Caucus:

"How to Participate in a Political Party

Rule the world for God.

Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an ideology.

Hide your strength.

Don't flaunt your Christianity.

Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have a majority of leadership positions whenever possible, God willing."

******************

Sex As A Weapon, Jeff Sharlet, Nerve.com, April 25, 2005:

The problem, as [James Dobson] outlines it in Straight Talk to Men , a Dobson "classic" originally published as Straight Talk to Men and Their Wives , is that men, in a righteous attempt to resolve the problems of sexism, have ceded too much power to women. As a result, he insists, women are engaging in a parody of male headship and most men lack the guts - and the sensitivity - to stand up to them.

And, later in the article:

Every Christian man-guide emphasizes the claim that women play just as important a role in the maintenance of what evangelicals view as society's all-important unit, the family, and it's more than dishwashing, suckling, and sex (though what else they are to do is not often discussed). Women must submit to their husbands, but their husbands in turn must commit to "serving" their wives. The phrase that comes to mind is "separate but equal."

*****************

The Christian Taliban
March 28, 2004, By Stephen Pizzo, AlterNet

During the Taliban rule of Afghanistan the world got a good look at what happens when religious zealots gain control of a government. Television images of women being beaten forced to wear burkas and banned from schools and the workplace helped build strong public support for the President's decision to invade Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11.

But even as President George W. Bush denounced the brutal Islamic fundamentalist regime in Kabul, he was quietly laying the foundations for his own fundamentalist regime at home. For the first time far right Christian fundamentalists had one of their own in the White House and the opportunity to begin rolling back decades of health and family planning programs they saw as un-Christian, if not downright sinful.

Since 2001 dozens of far-right Christian fundamentalists have been quietly installed in key positions within the Department of Health and Human Services, the Food and Drug Administration and on commissions and advisory committees where they have made serious progress. Three years later this administration has established one of the most rigid sexual health agendas in the Western world.

**************************

 

Unwed mothers are not eligible for federal money. From the Ithaca Journal, August 20, 2004:

According to a state Department of Labor document issued to program coordinators on Jan. 24, centers will now only be allowed to use federal funds for women who can produce a divorce certificate or death certificate proving they have previously been in a legally recognized marriage.

Left out of the federal definition for displaced homemakers are those who do not meet the criteria for the word "family," including unwed single mothers, mothers and children from broken homes where a marriage certificate was never issued, mothers and children who can't afford the costs associated with obtaining a divorce certificate, and mothers from same-sex relationships.

A report in April, 2004, revealed that the Bush administration quietly removed 25 reports from its Women's Bureau Web site deleting or distorting crucial information on issues from pay equity to reproductive healthcare.

 

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Abstinence-Only Sex

Abstinence-Only Sex Education:

President Bush's FY 2003 budget called for a $33 million increase in funding-and maintains that level in the FY 2004 budget request-for abstinence-until-marriage sex education programs. This request would bring total federal funding to $135 million. Such "abstinence-only" programs refrain from any discussion about the health benefits of contraception, including condoms, in preventing unintended pregnancy, sexually transmitted infections (STIs), and HIV/AIDS. Given the diversity of these programs, combined with few rigorous studies of their impact, there is as yet no compelling evidence that "abstinence-only" programs delay the initiation of sex or reduce teen pregnancy.

Further, the "abstinence-only" approach has no value for adolescents who are already sexually active (two thirds of teenagers have sex before their 18th birthday). In contrast, strong evidence exists that young people who receive comprehensive sexuality education become sexually active later than other teens, have fewer partners, and are more likely to use contraceptives when they do have sex. Perhaps this is why 8 in 10 Americans favor comprehensive programs for adolescents over the abstinence-only approach. more

 

Christian Coalition: Speakers at the Road To Victory rally sponsored by Christian Coalition just before the 2002 elections,

"seemed to compete with each other to say the worst things they could about this concept." Coalition founder Pat Robertson who described church-state separation as "a lie" and "a distortion foisted on us over the past few years by left- wingers." Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore termed separation "a fable" and insisted that the phrase "has so warped our society it's unbelievable." Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.) upped the ante, calling concerns about church and state "the phoniest argument there is."

But the award for the most vicious attack goes to Joyce Meyer, the TV preacher who cosponsored the Coalition's national meeting. Meyer lambasted the constitutional concept as "really a deception from "Satan."

 

David Barton

"Who Is David Barton , And Why Is He Saying Such Awful Things About Separation Of Church And State?"

David Barton and the "Myth" of Church-State Separation, Beliefnet (a web site of faith and spirituality)

As a "Christian" nation activist, David Barton, Vice Chair of the Republican Party, was once considered so extreme he was not taken seriously. Now he is listed by Time magazine as one of the nation's 25 most influential evangelicals.

He was also featured on the front page of The New York Times Week in Review, February 27, 2005: Putting God Back Into American History.

 

Supreme Court Justice Scalia

On January 12, 2003, Supreme Court Justice Scalia speaking at an event called Religious Freedom Day, publicly attacked the separation of church and state signaling the problems this important principle would have under a Supreme Court with a Scalia majority.

 

 

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

 

"The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple," says Pat Robertson. It is "to mobilize Christians -- one precinct at a time, one community at a time -- until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system." Robertson predicts that "the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade." And, "We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say, 'We've had enough,' we're going to take over!"--Pat Robertson

 "Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."--Pat Robertson, 1993 interview with Molly Ivins

 (talking about apartheid South Africa) "I think 'one man, one vote,' just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 3/18/92

 "The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians." -- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, in a Feb. 19 speech at a Christian broadcasters' convention:
"Civilized people — Muslims, Christians and Jews — all understand that the source of freedom and human dignity is the Creator. Civilized people of all religious faiths are called to the defense of His creation. We are a nation called to defend freedom — a freedom that is not the grant of any government or document, but is our endowment from God."
The Washington Post, Feb. 20, 2002

 

Gary Bauer, former president of the Family Research Council, crediting George W. Bush with Pat Robertson's decision to resign as president of the Christian Coalition:
"I think Robertson stepped down because the position has already been filled ... [Bush] is that leader right now."
The Washington Post, December 23, 2001

 

Ralph Reed, former leader of the Christian Coalition and now chairman of the Georgia GOP, discussing the religious right's satisfaction with Bush in the White House:
"You're no longer throwing rocks at the building; you're in the building."
The Washington Post, December 23, 2001

Elliott Abrams, Senior Director at the National Security Council, and a former Iran-Contra player pardoned by George Bush Sr.:
"Religion is now one of the organizing principles behind American policy."
In an introduction to the book "The Influence of Faith: Religious Groups and Foreign Policy," Rowman and Littlefield, 2001

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Focusedoc
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In all honestly, i still

In all honestly, i still can't grasp why the mistakes of few represent the idea of all.  i see that not all christians ( like Hitler) represent the christianity God in a biblical way.  those people aren't real christians.  Does that mean that all christians are just the same.  I can easily hate white people for killing and lynching my black ancestors years ago but wouldn't you agree that those whites didn't represent the views of all, including the one's today. so don't tell me a story about a christian you knew that did something like go to church but mistreat kids or something. thats the individual persons mental illness, not to blame god for. you will find people like that in every religion or anti-religious group. if you suggest that the actions of hitler or the so called christians you run into represent all, i might as well start hating all whites for segregating and spitting on my people in the past. It's a stupid generalization.


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Focusedoc wrote: In all

Focusedoc wrote:
In all honestly, i still can't grasp why the mistakes of few represent the idea of all.  i see that not all christians ( like Hitler) represent the christianity God in a biblical way.  those people aren't real christians.  Does that mean that all christians are just the same.  I can easily hate white people for killing and lynching my black ancestors years ago but wouldn't you agree that those whites didn't represent the views of all, including the one's today. so don't tell me a story about a christian you knew that did something like go to church but mistreat kids or something. thats the individual persons mental illness, not to blame god for. you will find people like that in every religion or anti-religious group. if you suggest that the actions of hitler or the so called christians you run into represent all, i might as well start hating all whites for segregating and spitting on my people in the past. It's a stupid generalization.

Well, there is more to it than that.  There remain certain effects from these individuals that persist today.

I will use your example of race.  My family shipped slaves for over a century.  We still have their ledgers.  They made an obscene amount of money enslaving your race.  Then, they moved north and avoided losing their gains during the Civil War.  They have been wealthy ever since.  So, some of the coins that I spend today could be traced as booty from selling your ancestors into slavery.

How do you feel about me now?  Not only did my ancestors kill, rape and sell your ancestors, I still gain benefit in the form of investment from those actions to this very day.  Still indifferent?  I doubt it.  Atheists view the actions of theists very similarly.

"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer


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lol, I'm sorry but i simply

lol, I'm sorry but i simply dont see your point. what i was saying is that even though you may still invest or gain from those cruel acts, you don't represent everyone. if i meet a racist on the street or an individual online that tells me something like that, naturally, i would feel anger or resentment towards them. that however, would not justify me going to class in the morning and hating my white professor because of an ignorant red neck i spoke to over the week end.

 

get my drift 


Focusedoc
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it seems to be a common

it seems to be a common fear amongst the atheist groups that christianity will take over america.  that is unfortunate for you i guess but my point still remains. i read an article in RADAR magazine where the rational response team was asked what their goal was. they replied that is was to bring an end to theism. What? will you try and burn down churches, destroy bibles, kill preachers, tear down crosses...

 

but i can still wake up in the morning and pray in my heart.

 

not to sound too religious for you but honestly, how is that even attainble. realistically speaking, its like trying to get rid of music. you get burn down opera houses, destroy instruments and sheet music. get rid of mtv if you feel led to and take away all radio stations, but i can still wake up in the morning and sing! 


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Focusedoc wrote: In all

Focusedoc wrote:
In all honestly, i still can't grasp why the mistakes of few represent the idea of all.  i see that not all christians ( like Hitler) represent the christianity God in a biblical way.  those people aren't real christians.  Does that mean that all christians are just the same.  I can easily hate white people for killing and lynching my black ancestors years ago but wouldn't you agree that those whites didn't represent the views of all, including the one's today. so don't tell me a story about a christian you knew that did something like go to church but mistreat kids or something. thats the individual persons mental illness, not to blame god for. you will find people like that in every religion or anti-religious group. if you suggest that the actions of hitler or the so called christians you run into represent all, i might as well start hating all whites for segregating and spitting on my people in the past. It's a stupid generalization.

Race and philosophy/religion aren't equivalent. Not every white or black person has to hold certain views; but every adherent has to hold certain views by definition. Holding those views makes them an adherent. If there's a correct way to interpret Christian doctrine, please get the word out, because they're clearly all confused.


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Quote: In all honestly, i

Quote:
In all honestly, i still can't grasp why the mistakes of few represent the idea of all.

I'm not aware of a single respected atheist who makes this argument. This is the argument that theists say we make.

Quote:
i see that not all christians ( like Hitler) represent the christianity God in a biblical way.

Right. That's what most non-Nazi Christians would say. It's what each and every religion in the world says about the "true" version of their religion.

Quote:
those people aren't real christians.

From Wiki:

No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking – or do I sincerely want to be right?[1]:

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Press and Journal again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."

Flew's original example may be softened into the following [1]:

Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus, who is a Scotsman, likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Aye, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

This form of argument is an informal fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge" or "doing such a thing [as committing a sex crime]&quotEye-wink is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman&quotEye-wink, or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.[2]

Quote:
Does that mean that all christians are just the same.

Would you think that anyone would be stupid enough to say this?

Quote:
I can easily hate white people for killing and lynching my black ancestors years ago but wouldn't you agree that those whites didn't represent the views of all, including the one's today.

The view that lynching black people was ok was much more widely held a hundred years ago. So widely held, in fact, that it was generally not punished by the law, and in fact, law enforcement agents would often participate actively, or help manufacture "evidence" to justify a lynching.

The idea that lynching black people was ok derived largely from the belief that blacks were "less human" than whites, and as such, were not deserving of the same human rights as whites. This view is erroneous, as modern science has proved. Luckily, logic and rational thought prevailed, and we no longer lynch black people in the U.S.

Logic and rational thought disprove Christianity. Period. End of story. It is illogical and irrational to believe in a deity that defies the laws of logic. Christians who believe in this god, (but not all of them) and Muslims who believe in Allah (but not all of them) do heinous things because they believe something that is objectively false.

But, according to your rationale, we should tolerate racism because not all whites lynch blacks, in the same way that not all Christians do bad things. After all, both beliefs are false. Blacks are not less human, and Christianity and Islam are false.

Quote:
so don't tell me a story about a christian you knew that did something like go to church but mistreat kids or something.

Focusedoc, you asked why we fight against religion. The answer is that we fight it because a significant number of people who believe in it do heinous things, and are trying to force their illogical views into law. Just like whites made slavery into law.

The stories of what Christians do are the evidence. They are the answer to your question. I'm sorry you don't like the answer.

Quote:
thats the individual persons mental illness, not to blame god for.

There is no god to blame. I blame the false belief, not the people. Most theists were taught from a very young age that god is real. They were taught to fear hell before they could figure out that it's a lie. They are taught that leaving religion is the worst possible thing they can do. It's not their fault that they don't leave. That's why we fight against religion. It's the cause of the mental illness.

Just like every schizophrenic doesn't commit murder, every theist doesn't do bad things. But... without the schizophrenia, you'd have no schizophrenics committing murder. In the same way, if you have no religion, you have no religiously motivated murders. You'd still have some murder left over, of course! But overall, you'd have eliminated the single biggest cause of persecution in history.

Quote:
you will find people like that in every religion or anti-religious group.

Precisely. You can't even see that you're making my point for me.

Quote:
if you suggest that the actions of hitler or the so called christians you run into represent all,

I never have, so you can get off of this.

Quote:
i might as well start hating all whites for segregating and spitting on my people in the past.

I've already shown you that it was rational thought that ended the legalized hatred that led to segregation. But you don't want it to apply to religion. Why is that?

Quote:
It's a stupid generalization.

Hating whites over the segregation of blacks in the past is stupid, and generalizing that white people are all bad because of segregation is also stupid. That's because rational people ended segregation based on logic and reason and science. We'd like it if you stop bitching at us while we're trying to end the religious hatred by using logic and reason and science.

Your double standard is offensive.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Focusedoc wrote: lol, I'm

Focusedoc wrote:

lol, I'm sorry but i simply dont see your point. what i was saying is that even though you may still invest or gain from those cruel acts, you don't represent everyone. if i meet a racist on the street or an individual online that tells me something like that, naturally, i would feel anger or resentment towards them. that however, would not justify me going to class in the morning and hating my white professor because of an ignorant red neck i spoke to over the week end.

 

get my drift 

Large segments of Christian America are directly responsible for holding back social, scientific, medical, and educational progress. It's not equivalent to say you don't hate one white person because another is racist; you'd have to be talking about the racism itself (or some directly associated idea, like racial purity). Not every Christian supports teaching Creationism or is against embryonic stem cell research, but those that are, are so because, in their views, of their Christianity.


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Focusedoc wrote: it seems

Focusedoc wrote:

it seems to be a common fear amongst the atheist groups that christianity will take over america.  that is unfortunate for you i guess but my point still remains. i read an article in RADAR magazine where the rational response team was asked what their goal was. they replied that is was to bring an end to theism. What? will you try and burn down churches, destroy bibles, kill preachers, tear down crosses...

 

but i can still wake up in the morning and pray in my heart.

 

not to sound too religious for you but honestly, how is that even attainble. realistically speaking, its like trying to get rid of music. you get burn down opera houses, destroy instruments and sheet music. get rid of mtv if you feel led to and take away all radio stations, but i can still wake up in the morning and sing! 

Fundamentalist Christians do hope to take over America, to go against the constitution and call this a Christian nation. Will we succeed in stopping them? It's hard to know, but theism is ebbing away as we speak. Whenever a new discovery sheds light on something once considered the domain of a god, there is one less place for a god to hide. People thought their god was in the sky, and when they found nothing up there, their god had to be moved to another dimension. It's getting to where god is only argued in grammar. Morally, we've progressed specifically because of mainstream people's abandonment of a scriptural basis for their morality. Society has evolved beyond it; something that should be evident to anyone cracking a bible these days. 


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but try reading the book

but try reading the book yourselves. it amuses that many atheists claim to have read the bible themselves but i have yet to hear one interpret it correctly.  what my point is, is that, if the bible you say you have read clearly states that adultery is wrong, and you hear of a good christian man practicing this sin, why call it a christian thing.  clearly, according to his own beliefs, he is sinning. why use the man that is obviously living a life contrary to the one he claims be a representative for you. i think atheists like to pick and choose. you guys freakin use, hitler, and stalin and all the people you heard of in the news to depicts the picture you feel comfortably recognizing as the christian.  you don't give credit to the dr. martin luther kings, or princess diana's or charity givers. in fact, you discredit their goodness by saying they only do it for the sake of christianity. wrong again! this is my favorite atheist misconception.  the bible says that your works and good deads do not buy your salvation. meaning, if i give food to the poor(which i happen to, what you gotta say now?) i do it out of goodness in my heart. not because if i don't i will go to hell.

unfortunately there are many nut jobs that profess to be christians. in fact, a large percentage of americans claim to be believers but they aren't. don't blame the religion or the people. look at the jesus that they claim to be following, the one that they should have been following. that is the heart of the faith.  jesus said to everyone "follow me". he never said, "follow hitler, your aunt and uncle, or pastor".

 

he said FOLLOW ME! 


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Focused, I presented you

Focused, I presented you with lots of evidence that theists are trying to take over the government.  Did you even read my post all the way through, or did you just continue ranting?

Would you please take the time to actually read what we write before you keep saying what you believe?

Quote:
What? will you try and burn down churches, destroy bibles, kill preachers, tear down crosses...

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?  You even posted it yourself:  "they replied that is was to bring an end to theism."

The- ISM.

not The - ISTS.

The religion.  Not the religious.

We want to end the kind of hatred that causes things like burning churches and killing um... wait a second... I don't remember preachers getting killed by atheists.... I do recall some abortion doctors being killed by Christians, though...

We want to end that by taking away the stupid, irrational justification that people use for carrying out their stupid, irrational hatred.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Focusedoc wrote: if i give

Focusedoc wrote:

if i give food to the poor(which i happen to, what you gotta say now?) i do it out of goodness in my heart. not because if i don't i will go to hell.

So are you admitting that your morality does not stem from god or the bible?

If you do these things out of the goodness in your heart, why do you need god, jesus, or the bible?


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no, i do not having a

no, i do not having a reading problem. thank you for being mean and insulting ( and many time vulgar as many atheists find are).

 

moving on...

 

whether or not you are tryin to bring an end to theists or theism, it ain't possible.  sorry to bring you the news about that one but thats the truth for ya.

 

i agree that the ideas that people use to kill and destroy are wrong but you CANNOT stop the belief. its just stupid to even attempt. what is the point of this whole website. lol. you guys hate god! okay, i get it. you will never be able to do anything about removing religion from anything. i agree that some people do stupid things in the name of God. i hate that so much because it seems to (obviously) give people like you fuel to say "this is why God sucks!".

 

i get your point but not all christians kill abortion doctors. i would never. i know many that wouldn't.  all your problem is, is with people that are crazy and infatuated with a false idea of who they think god really is. they are strange and seriously, i live in a community where no one is even like that and its such an extreme. you use it as foundation for your "movement". move on. wake up in the morning, shower and play with the kids.  practice premarital for all i care with a man just like yourself. but your goal is sooooo unattainable. your efforts, i'm sad to say (i'm really not), are pointless.

 

 


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Quote: but try reading the

Quote:
but try reading the book yourselves.

I absolutely guarantee that I have read it more times than you, in more versions, with the greek and hebrew concordance on my desk.

I guarantee that many of the atheists here know the bible better than you do.

Quote:
it amuses that many atheists claim to have read the bible themselves but i have yet to hear one interpret it correctly.

I'm going to try to explain this to you one more time.  After you ignore me again, I'm going to give up because you're not here to exchange ideas.  You're here to preach.

Everyone claims to have the correct interpretation.  Do you think there are Christians who wake up one day and think to themselves, "Today, I'll misinterpret the scripture.  I'm sure Jesus would love me for that."

Use your brain, man!  Everyone thinks they have the correct interpretation, and nobody can prove theirs correct.  Since there's no proof that any is correct, nobody gets to say that theirs is unless they offer new proof.   None has ever been presented.  Ever.

 

Quote:
what my point is, is that, if the bible you say you have read clearly states that adultery is wrong, and you hear of a good christian man practicing this sin, why call it a christian thing.

Only Christians would claim that we would say this.  As a matter of fact, humans, as well as their ancestors have all been slightly polygynous.  Put another way, ever since there have been humans, there has been "adultery" -- even before there was marriage.  We're not the only polygynous species, nor are we the most polygynous.  In fact, as primates go, we're right about the middle of the pack in terms of long term partners and "fidelity."

    I have never heard an atheist say that Christianity is wrong because Christians commit adultery.  That's ludicrous.

 

Quote:
clearly, according to his own beliefs, he is sinning.

And atheists, quite apart from the bible, have come to their own conclusion that cheating on his mate is wrong.  So what?  Both atheists and Christians cheat occasionally.  This doesn't have anything to do with anything.

 

Quote:
why use the man that is obviously living a life contrary to the one he claims be a representative for you. i think atheists like to pick and choose.

And the kettle calls the pot black.  Would you like to go through the bible with me and pick out all the times that god orders murder?  How about when god himself kills at least a hundred thousand babies who, by any Christian standard, aren't old enough to sin?  How about when Jesus curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season?

Or, would you like to tell me why women are allowed to speak in church?  Paul says it's strictly not allowed.

Or, what about cutting their hair?

Would you like to explain to me why you keep saying that atheists use Christian's morality as an argument against them?  We don't.  You are the only one here making that argument.

We disprove Christianity without ever mentioning a single Christian.

Let me put that in big print for you.

 We disprove Christianity without ever mentioning a single Christian.

We do not make the claim you say we make.  Get off of it.

 

Quote:
you guys freakin use, hitler, and stalin and all the people you heard of in the news to depicts the picture you feel comfortably recognizing as the christian.

Stalin was an atheist, dude.  Get off of it.

 

Quote:
you don't give credit to the dr. martin luther kings, or princess diana's or charity givers.

You aren't aware that there are more non-Christian charities in the world than Christian ones, are you?

You're just ranting, and you're not even ranting factually.  

 

Quote:
in fact, you discredit their goodness by saying they only do it for the sake of christianity. wrong again! this is my favorite atheist misconception.  the bible says that your works and good deads do not buy your salvation. meaning, if i give food to the poor(which i happen to, what you gotta say now?) i do it out of goodness in my heart. not because if i don't i will go to hell.

I don't discredit their goodness.  You say that I do.

Please.  Get off of this.  I recognize that lots of Christians have done good things.  So have lots of atheists.  It's built into our genes to do good things.  We never could have formed a social contract in the first place if we weren't predisposed to do good things.

You do know about the social contract, right?

 ******************

Here's the thing, focusedoc.  We are all about facts here.  You don't have your facts straight, and I'm showing you where you're wrong.  If you can prove that you're right and I'm wrong, have at it.  Please.  I like to know when I'm mistaken.

But, we have forum rules here, and one of them is that you can't spam the threads with preaching and not respond to the people who are trying to have a constructive debate.  

Please address the material that I've posted.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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well, i'm glad you asked.

well, i'm glad you asked. my morality (i believe) comes from God. i know  i know i know. i'm just telling you about MY morality. let me eduacte you: 1)many christians like myself believe that the holy spirit (that you all cursed out online) gives us love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. he enables us to act in these ways. as we are God's children, he share in that with him. not all the time, i never said we accepted jesus as our savior and became perfect. its a constant struggle.

2) many of us believers do things just because we love God. yes! we love him. we participate in an ACTIVE relationship with God and do things just cause we know it will make him happy.  i know that many times i can see someone begging for change on the subway and i'm in a rush to get to class and i really don't feel like stopping. i will however cause i know that it would make god happy. he didn't threaten me with a lightening bolt. no! just cause i know it will make him away...

 

 

now...feel free to chew away my head three at a time. gosh, you hardly give me a chance to respond. 


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Honestly, people. Pick an

Honestly, people. Pick an idea out of a hat, either political or religious, and I will show you some fucktard who subscribed to it and did extremely evil things.

 

The whole human race of any religion (or lack there of.) has commited astrocities. 

 

So cherry picking through history won't help.

 


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Quote:

Quote:
no, i do not having a reading problem. thank you for being mean and insulting ( and many time vulgar as many atheists find are).

Vulgar?  Where?

Insulting? 

let's see about this, shall we?

Quote:
i agree that the ideas that people use to kill and destroy are wrong but you CANNOT stop the belief. its just stupid to even attempt.

Wait a second here. Who just called who stupid?

Let's see what I said...

Hambydammit wrote:
Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

That's not an insult, focusedoc. It's a question. Here's my justification for the question:

Hambydammit wrote:

Focused, I presented you with lots of evidence that theists are trying to take over the government. Did you even read my post all the way through, or did you just continue ranting?

Would you please take the time to actually read what we write before you keep saying what you believe?

Focusedoc, I have given you volumes of text, and you have not responded to it. My question is legitimate. Maybe you have not read the posts, or maybe you don't understand them. You have not demonstrated to me that you understand anything I said. I have every reason to believe that you might have a reading comprehension problem. Would you like to prove me wrong, or would you like to call me stupid again. I asked you so that you could answer for yourself. You just called all atheist activists stupid. Who's in the wrong here?

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your rant because I already refuted it in my first post, which you still haven't responded to.

You're getting close to troll territory here. Respond to my points, or concede that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

 

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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magilum
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Focusedoc wrote: but try

Focusedoc wrote:
but try reading the book yourselves. it amuses that many atheists claim to have read the bible themselves

The idea of reading the bible amuses me, too.
Focusedoc wrote:
but i have yet to hear one interpret it correctly.

"Correctly" meaning what?
Focusedoc wrote:
what my point is, is that, if the bible you say you have read clearly states that adultery is wrong, and you hear of a good christian man practicing this sin, why call it a christian thing.  clearly, according to his own beliefs, he is sinning. why use the man that is obviously living a life contrary to the one he claims be a representative for you.

Huh?
Focusedoc wrote:
i think atheists like to pick and choose.

Sounds like you're projecting. If a person can call themselves a Christian and still do things his/her own religion deems wrong, and even secular society frowns on, then the concept of Christianity fails as an indicator, or even a prescription, for morality. In other words, it tells us what we know already. You would rather approve of anyone calling themselves a Christian until they do something to shame you, then disown them as failed Christians rather than fairly as representatives of it. That might work in a purely academic sense, but Christianity is bandied about as superior to secularism as an objective moral guideline. If its adherents fail to meet its supposed standard, it fails in its supposed benefit to society.
Focusedoc wrote:
you guys freakin use, hitler, and stalin and all the people you heard of in the news to depicts the picture you feel comfortably recognizing as the christian.

You're referring to one thread that not everyone even agreed with.
Focusedoc wrote:
you don't give credit to the dr. martin luther kings, or princess diana's or charity givers. in fact, you discredit their goodness by saying they only do it for the sake of christianity.

What's that got to do with embryonic stem cell research, science education, gay marriage, etc.?
Focusedoc wrote:
wrong again! this is my favorite atheist misconception.  the bible says that your works and good deads do not buy your salvation. meaning, if i give food to the poor(which i happen to, what you gotta say now?) i do it out of goodness in my heart. not because if i don't i will go to hell.

I've heard different interpretations of how "salvation" (LOL, these words) is attained. I'll dig them up later if necessary.
Focusedoc wrote:
unfortunately there are many nut jobs that profess to be christians. in fact, a large percentage of americans claim to be believers but they aren't.

You must be special having the ultimate interpretation of the doctrine.
Focusedoc wrote:
don't blame the religion or the people. look at the jesus that they claim to be following, the one that they should have been following.

Blame Jesus?
Focusedoc wrote:
that is the heart of the faith.  jesus said to everyone "follow me". he never said, "follow hitler, your aunt and uncle, or pastor".

Your knowledge of him comes from one book, so distinguishing between the man (who may not have existed after all) and then the scripture, and then the necessary interpretation from the interpreter (because the scripture is so bad) isn't something to be taken lightly.
Focusedoc wrote:
he said FOLLOW ME!
 I wasn't convinced until I saw the ALLCAPS and exclamation point. 


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Focusedoc wrote: well, i'm

Focusedoc wrote:

well, i'm glad you asked. my morality (i believe) comes from God. i know  i know i know. i'm just telling you about MY morality. let me eduacte you: 1)many christians like myself believe that the holy spirit (that you all cursed out online) gives us love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. he enables us to act in these ways. as we are God's children, he share in that with him. not all the time, i never said we accepted jesus as our savior and became perfect. its a constant struggle.

2) many of us believers do things just because we love God. yes! we love him. we participate in an ACTIVE relationship with God and do things just cause we know it will make him happy.  i know that many times i can see someone begging for change on the subway and i'm in a rush to get to class and i really don't feel like stopping. i will however cause i know that it would make god happy. he didn't threaten me with a lightening bolt. no! just cause i know it will make him away...

 

 

now...feel free to chew away my head three at a time. gosh, you hardly give me a chance to respond. 

 This isn't a chatroom, you can respond whenever you want.

All I have to say is ROFL at the rest of it. 


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Focusedoc wrote: well, i'm

Focusedoc wrote:

well, i'm glad you asked. my morality (i believe) comes from God. i know i know i know. i'm just telling you about MY morality.

So why did god give different people different morality? How do you know that the one god gave you is right?

Focusedoc wrote:
1)many christians like myself believe that the holy spirit (that you all cursed out online) gives us love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. he enables us to act in these ways. as we are God's children, he share in that with him. not all the time, i never said we accepted jesus as our savior and became perfect. its a constant struggle.

So is the bible necessary?

Focusedoc wrote:
2) many of us believers do things just because we love God. yes! we love him. we participate in an ACTIVE relationship with God and do things just cause we know it will make him happy. i know that many times i can see someone begging for change on the subway and i'm in a rush to get to class and i really don't feel like stopping. i will however cause i know that it would make god happy. he didn't threaten me with a lightening bolt. no! just cause i know it will make him away...

So you aren't stopping out of the goodness in your heart?

Doesn't god threaten you with hell, or are you saying that you can do things that make god unhappy and not go to hell?  Are you stopping because you want to, or because god will punish you if you don't?


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Honestly, people. Pick an idea out of a hat, either political or religious, and I will show you some fucktard who subscribed to it and did extremely evil things.

 

The whole human race of any religion (or lack there of.) has commited astrocities. 

 

So cherry picking through history won't help.

 

Dude, you repeat this in every thread. What is your point?

I keep acknowledging that secular and religious ideologies have contributed to bad things throughout history, but that, in a practical and immediate sense, religion is the motive for some bad things. Can you answer my question? What are the secular reasons for monkeywrenching embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage, or a proper science curriculum?


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i dont know where to start.

i dont know where to start. i was not calling anyone stupid. i said it was a stupid attempt to try and destroy religion. i never said you were vulgar by the way. wow-lol. i actually said that many atheists i know are very vulgar. it was a generalization. yes thats what i said. generalization. and why do you think you read the bible more than me. lol that is so weird to just assume that. i'm a random girl your talking to on time online and i happen to be a christian and you make such an assumption. wow!

 

if you read my original message, yes i am tasha (please don't email  me, i have a life), i was asking you guys what your point is. you know, i will admit to this. i am a political science major in college right now trying to type out a paper. this paper with help me get an A in my class, maintain my good average, and hopefully get me a good paying job one day.  going on about this all night will not go anywhere as i already stated that i don't think you guys are going anywhere with this. i will admit gladly thati have not been sitting here, lifeless, reading all of your messages. i am one individual trying to answer multiple people at once. everytime i write out my response, i get another two at the same time. i was never insulting, thought i can be. to be honest, none of what you guys are saying is annoying enough to make me get upset. i'm seriously indifferent. i talk to atheists all the time in my school that think they are too smart for god. i speak to them in my job, on the stree handing out pamphlets (yes, you guys are also handing out pamphlets now-lol). this worries me not! lol. my original thought was so simple i see now how complicated you all made it.  i don't have time to go all night, like i said, i and a paper to write. 

 

truth is, many people don't even know you guys exist, nonetheless, will they care about any of the things you have to say.  the bible said many like you will come and say all that you are saying. this was all expected. they will simply ignore it and move on. to be honest, i am very open minded and i was once an atheist myself. (go ahead make jokes, i can feel them coming on, sarcastic or something right, like ,"its ashame you gave up intelligence for faith&quotEye-wink. predictable. anway i was. i like to listen to what you guys have to say, one thing that can be discouraging is the sarcasm and language. its hard to find an atheist that can have a calm discussion without the emotions.

 

anyway my point is that we will still love honor and cherish our God in which you do not believe. what you said was educational but not persuasive. i will still believe, they will still believe. you can only get the weak ones that doubted in the first place but i'm stronger than that. i watched your movies and read your books just cause i thought it was all interesting. i still go to church on sunday and pray to the God i love. i have a relationship with god that you cannot put in a test tube and measure. sucks for you i guess cause you want that solid physical truth that i cannot give but i guess i am not that evangelical cause i don't care. there are miraculous experiences that i had that could not be explained. there are encounters i had that were real. i know you think i was dreaming them but that is up to you to believe. but for me... I will always believe

 

God Bless,

 

I'm finishing up my paper now,

nice talking to you 


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magilum

magilum wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Honestly, people. Pick an idea out of a hat, either political or religious, and I will show you some fucktard who subscribed to it and did extremely evil things.

 

The whole human race of any religion (or lack there of.) has commited astrocities.

 

So cherry picking through history won't help.

 

Dude, you repeat this in every thread. What is your point?

 

 See below.

 

Quote:
 

I keep acknowledging that secular and religious ideologies have contributed to bad things throughout history, but that, in a practical and immediate sense, religion is the motive for some bad things

 

 

 I'm not directing it at any specifically, I'm directing it to the conversation in general. Why is it everytime I make a post, people think I am specifically talking to them? If I was addressing a specific post, I use the quote function. For statements in general, I just post it.

 

  

Quote:

Can you answer my question? What are the secular reasons for monkeywrenching embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage, or a proper science curriculum?

 

First,  I know of atheists that are against embryonic stem cell research/gay marriage. They think that embryonic stem cell research is taking a life much like Christians do. As for gay marriage, they think it disruptes the sanctity of marriage.

 

Now back to the original point.

 

Using your examples of stem cell, gay marriage and science curricilum, my point is that while some people are using religion as the base of their opposition to it, there are religious people that aren't opposing it.

I bring this up because I think it is relevant, in the sense that while getting rid of religion will clear it up, there is no indication that it's the only way to clear it up.

Personally, I think the best way is to increase education of these issues, so we don't get the Kent Hovinds or the Fred Phelps.

 

However, if people seek to end all religion, it will add fuel to the fire and everyone will cry victim that they are being persecuted based on their beliefs. 

 

 Using this method, both sides get their slice of the pie, in the sense the atheists get a secular enviroment, and Theists get their right to worship. 

 

That way, everyone's happy and we can go back to bitching about every little thing that the side that doesn't agree with us does. 

 

 

Capiche?


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Here's the short version of

Here's the short version of what she said:

1. I wanted to make an assertion, and want to get away with not substantiating it.

2. I've got big, important things to do, so I can't read any counter-arguments.

3. Not having read anything, I think my argument stands.

If you don't plan on a conversation about it, then don't say it. You can't just snipe and expect your point to stand regardless of how it looks against reality. 


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yeah, i never asked to make

yeah, i never asked to make my email a whole message board thing. can you like.. take it down. i dont need  my email up there.thanks dude.

 

 

god bless you-lol

 

 

 


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what is your problem dude.

what is your problem dude. i was not saying  that. your proving my point exactly about atheist can't have this discussion without the emotions. spare me. i did not plan on having a stupid discussion board to be honest. i sent an email to the rational response team and without my concent, they turned it into this. i do have better things to do. i did know how to answer your questions but i would rather a one on one. i was not making any assertion. wow, ur just weird. i was not tryin to get away with anything. your miserable without god. look at you. your making so much assumptions and i was not making an argument. i was asking ya'll some questions. i never said ya was wrong. i just wanted you to answer some questions. seriously dude, hop off this forum, shower up for the night and go to bed.

 

gosh!

 

friggin loser 


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Quote: i dont know where to

Quote:
i dont know where to start. i was not calling anyone stupid. i said it was a stupid attempt to try and destroy religion. i never said you were vulgar by the way. wow-lol. i actually said that many atheists i know are very vulgar. it was a generalization. yes thats what i said. generalization.

Oh... you can make them and we can't.  Ok.

Why'd you say the bit about vulgar if you didn't mean it about me or someone in this thread?  Were you using the behavior of other atheists to define me?

 

Quote:
and why do you think you read the bible more than me. lol that is so weird to just assume that. i'm a random girl your talking to on time online and i happen to be a christian and you make such an assumption. wow!

I could be wrong, but the odds are really high.  Just a rough guess, I've probably read six or seven different versions, some multiple times.  That's not counting all the repeats when I was a Christian.  I became an atheist because I read the bible.  Since you don't seem to know what you're talking about with regard to the bible, it's a good assumption that you haven't read it as much as I have.

Or, maybe you have a reading comprehension problem, and can't see how contradictory it is.

 

Quote:
if you read my original message, yes i am tasha (please don't email  me, i have a life), i was asking you guys what your point is. you know, i will admit to this. i am a political science major in college right now trying to type out a paper. this paper with help me get an A in my class, maintain my good average, and hopefully get me a good paying job one day.  going on about this all night will not go anywhere as i already stated that i don't think you guys are going anywhere with this.

Fine.  I don't have a problem with you coming here to ask us questions.  But why'd you go out of your way to say how stupid the idea of ending religion is?

(I'll leave the semantics aside here and go with the assumption that people who hold that idea aren't stupid for doing so.  Is it possible that you've just discovered one of the errors Christians make in describing atheists?  Possible.)

 

Quote:
i will admit gladly thati have not been sitting here, lifeless, reading all of your messages.

Thank you for the admission.  So now you understand why it got me upset that you kept preaching at us after you asked a question and didn't even read the answers?

 

Quote:
i was never insulting, thought i can be.

Some of us have devoted our lives to what you call a stupid idea.  You don't think that's insulting?

 

Quote:
truth is, many people don't even know you guys exist, nonetheless, will they care about any of the things you have to say.

That's why we're doing this.  You answered your own question.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but we won't know unless they know we're here, will we?

 

Quote:
the bible said many like you will come and say all that you are saying. this was all expected.

Um... yeah.  I won't go into all the ways that this is self evident, and not even remotely prophetic, or even very intelligent.

 

Quote:
they will simply ignore it and move on.

Many, like you, will simply ignore it and move on.  Others actually question why they believe what they do.

 

Quote:
i am very open minded and i was once an atheist myself.

Wait.  Let me guess.  You were raised in a more or less Christian family, and when you were a teenager/early 20s, you rebelled against the church, but then you came back.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the case in about 50-60% of the people who claim they were an atheist once.

 

Quote:
i like to listen to what you guys have to say, one thing that can be discouraging is the sarcasm and language. its hard to find an atheist that can have a calm discussion without the emotions.

If you notice, it wasn't until you ignored my first three posts that I got upset.  The most un-pc thing that I said was that your double standard is offensive to me.  It is.

After you ignored me, I told you exactly why I was upset with you and asked you to please respond appropriately.

A little sarcastic, yes.  We get hundreds of people preaching at us every week, and about one in fifty is even willing to respond to actual questions.  It's tough not to get a bit testy.

 

Quote:
anyway my point is that we will still love honor and cherish our God in which you do not believe. what you said was educational but not persuasive.

And it makes me sad that you value education so little, when you're in school, especially.

Quote:
i will still believe, they will still believe. 

Someone helped me get out of religion.  Someone helped most of the core members of this site out of religion.  I have helped maybe a half a dozen people leave.  Very few people can leave it on their own.  It's so prevalent, and as you say, many don't even realize that there are millions of us!

 

Quote:
you can only get the weak ones that doubted in the first place but i'm stronger than that.

Right.  No amount of evidence will convince you.  That's not what I call intellectual strength.

 

Quote:
there are miraculous experiences that i had that could not be explained.

Your lack of ability to explain them does not mean that they don't have an explanation.

If you cared more about evidence, you might see that.

 

Quote:
there are encounters i had that were real. i know you think i was dreaming them but that is up to you to believe. but for me... I will always believe

Then I will stop talking with you because you are a lost cause.  Thank you for your candor.

 

Quote:

God Bless,

 

I'm finishing up my paper now,

nice talking to you

Good luck on your paper.  If you make an A on it, and want to post your success in this thread, I promise I won't try to debate you any more.

If you have some time, I think it would be nice if you really read all the posts that our members have taken time out of their lives to write.  You might find that there is some truth in them... truth that doesn't require you to give up your theism.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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magilum
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Focusedoc wrote: what is

Focusedoc wrote:

what is your problem dude. i was not saying  that. your proving my point exactly about atheist can't have this discussion without the emotions. spare me. i did not plan on having a stupid discussion board to be honest. i sent an email to the rational response team and without my concent, they turned it into this. i do have better things to do. i did know how to answer your questions but i would rather a one on one. i was not making any assertion. wow, ur just weird. i was not tryin to get away with anything. your miserable without god. look at you. your making so much assumptions and i was not making an argument. i was asking ya'll some questions. i never said ya was wrong. i just wanted you to answer some questions. seriously dude, hop off this forum, shower up for the night and go to bed.

 

gosh!

 

friggin loser 

American education, ladies and gents. 


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Focusedoc wrote:

Focusedoc wrote:

i was not making any assertion.

i was not making an argument.

i never said ya was wrong.

Really?

I think that your words show otherwise:

Focusedoc wrote:

you spend all day and all night thinking about him.

your lives are dedicated to disproving him so much.

this was all predicted.

i saw your debate on abc and you guys looked annoyed and sarcastic.

religion does not cause conflict, ethics do.

if religion never existed, we would still fight about anything.

its the human condition, that we must disagree. honestly, you guys come off more like satanists.

it seems more like the devil set you up to do and say all you do.

whether or not you accept that, everyone out there knows that this is true.

you CANNOT prove that the earth was just simply made by gases.

it will never make sense.

you guys are stupid

i would love to talk to you some day.

you dont make sense period!

god is real!

if he wasn't, you wouldn't spend all this time on him


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Pineapple, Sorry I'm not

Pineapple,

Sorry I'm not quoting. Going line by line in a repeatedly quoted thread is time consuming. I'll try to address your points in sequence. 

I didn't think it was directed at me -- I had no idea what it was meant to be directed at, only that I've seen it before. A lot.

I've never heard a secular argument against embryonic stem cell research, but I'll take your word for it that they exist somewhere. However, in contrast with religious arguments, we can have a secular conversation about whether a blastocyst being used in research, rather than just being discarded, poses a moral dilemma, based on what we know, or will know, of biology and consciousness. There can be, based on parameters like what specific level of development can experience suffering. There can be satisfactory a right or wrong answer, at least based on the parameters we understand to be relevant. Dualism admits no conversation; it crosses its arms and digs in its heels.

The same goes for gay marriage. If the real meter of morality isn't some transcendent thing in itself, but is whether an act causes suffering or harm, there is just no legitimate reason to oppose gay marriage. Perhaps there are psychologists of some sort with theories against homosexuality; but let's be honest here about both these issues. The preponderance of opposition is coming from religion.

 I agree with your goal of improving education, and the net effect it will have. But I think it's myopic to suppose it replaces the different efforts that atheists have been making of late. We won't reap the benefits of that for years, and the obstacle in its path -- religious-political blocs -- can't be taught out of existence. They have to be confronted head on before we can even hope to convince the general public that, say, evolution and creation aren't just "two differing opinions." I didn't consider myself truly an atheist until I saw Dawkins explaining his position on TV, and then read "The End of Faith." It emboldened me to speak out, as I think it does for others. There are different ways of addressing different kinds of theists -- I agree again. It's not good to alienate reasonable people when you can find a middle ground. But that isn't all we're dealing with here.


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Ok listen we don't hate god.

Ok listen we don't hate god. We don't hate things that we don't believe exist. Do you hate Santa? How about Allah? Maybe Zeus?  Please stop with that nonsense.


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magilum wrote: but let's

magilum wrote:

but let's be honest here about both these issues. The preponderance of opposition is coming from religion.

 

True, but my point is America isn't a theocracy.

The people voting against the creationism in schools, or voting for stem cell research funding, etc.. are Christians themselves.

 

So my point in the post stands.

 

I mean would you try to get rid of the Republician party, because some fucktard is a Repuplician and using that to press his/her Republician views on people?

 

 

magilum wrote:

It's not good to alienate reasonable people when you can find a middle ground. But that isn't all we're dealing with here.

 

IIRC, the topic is about why people are speaking out against religion and pushing to end it. 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: True,

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
True, but my point is America isn't a theocracy.

The president purports to make some decisions on a purely religious basis. It may not be one officially, but it's not for lack of trying.
Cpt_pineapple wrote:
The people voting against the creationism in schools, or voting for stem cell research funding, etc.. are Christians themselves.

I think "Many of the people..." would be a fair way to start that sentence. I would also argue that those people aren't doing so because of their religion, where their opponents are. If you can think of any secular creationists, I'd be interested to read about it.
Cpt_pineapple wrote:
So my point in the post stands.

The problem doesn't have to be total for it to be a problem. Every single Christian doesn't have to be an impediment to progress for us to realize that many are actively, and because of the popular straw-men made of things like evolution and embryonic stem cell research (i.e. that it will create a massive abortion industry) passively, getting in the way: and it is specifically because their interpretation of their ideology demands it. It doesn't have to be total for it to be significant.
Cpt_pineapple wrote:
I mean would you try to get rid of the Republician party, because some fucktard is a Repuplician and using that to press his/her Republician views on people?

Is that the assumption you've been under all along? That everyone here thinks we can scorch the earth of all religion? It's not so, and I don't even think it's a realistic goal so much as a tool of rhetoric (I could be wrong). I don't want to deny anyone their religion by force or legislation: but I do want everyone to see what their arguments look like in the cold light of day. And that is in the hope that some of them will realize what bull it is. I keep getting the impression from you that you think religion has no negative effects at all. That even where we can directly identify the thought processes that lead to a bad decision as religious in nature, you would only speculate that it was inevitable anyway: that some other idea would have been to blame because people are flawed (or something). We can cross that bridge when we come to it, but right now religious ideology is the problem we're looking at. Maybe tomorrow it'll be fascists, or eugenics proponents. We'll deal with them, too. What we're not going to do is pretend religion is dandy. Society at large is doing better precisely because of its implicit abandonment of ancient dogma for real data, and I think it's a trend that should continue.
Cpt_pineapple wrote:
IIRC, the topic is about why people are speaking out against religion and pushing to end it.

That wasn't clear from your post which characterized identifying problems as religious in origin as "cherry picking." If there's a massive fundamentalist movement in the US to do the very things we consider problems and impediments to progress, that's not cherry-picking, that's paying attention. Again, the problem doesn't have to be total to be both significant and caused by religious ideology.


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Hi Tasha, If you have read

Hi Tasha,

If you have read all the comments posted I hope you can get a feel for what damage is being done by people with a "personal relationship with god" when they get power over their fellow man.

If you are not outraged by what is being done in the name of your god you are not paying attention.

As atheists we know the power of faith; after all it can move skyscrapers.

 Please keep the voices in your head to yourself. We don't want to be saved from your insanity - we know it's not real.

Come over to the bright side - after all posting on this site means you must be tempted - you would be welcomed with open minds and aplauded for your bravery and humanity.

Be good; have fun! It's later than you think.

ManX 


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magilum wrote:

magilum wrote:

Is that the assumption you've been under all along? That everyone here thinks we can scorch the earth of all religion? It's not so, and I don't even think it's a realistic goal so much as a tool of rhetoric (I could be wrong). I don't want to deny anyone their religion by force or legislation:
  No, I never accused you of wanting to scorching religion. However, from the mood of this topic, I get that impression.    
Quote:
I keep getting the impression from you that you think religion has no negative effects at all. That even where we can directly identify the thought processes that lead to a bad decision as religious in nature, you would only speculate that it was inevitable anyway: that some other idea would have been to blame because people are flawed (or something).
  No, as I said before, Creationists like Kent Hovind/Ray Comfort don't draw on secular reasoning. But this is where my Republician comment comes in. My point with that is any ideology can be taken to the extreme. In the other thread where I said that I'm not arguing that religion isn't a factor, but not a significant factor, I make comments like those because in the subject of the topic, it's not a situation like Ray Comfort where there aren't any secular reasons to commit the act. My point is that people may automatically attribute it to religion when in reality, that is only the tip of the iceberg. I also believe I mentioned that when you have the secular mixed with the religious, then it's difficult to tell, but all likely hood points to the secular as the main influence. Not that religion doesn't play a factor, but the secular is the driving force.          
Quote:

We can cross that bridge when we come to it, but right now religious ideology is the problem we're looking at. Maybe tomorrow it'll be fascists, or eugenics proponents. We'll deal with them, too. What we're not going to do is pretend religion is dandy. Society at large is doing better precisely because of its implicit abandonment of ancient dogma for real data, and I think it's a trend that should continue.      
   I don't much like organized religion either.
        
Quote:


That wasn't clear from your post which characterized identifying problems as religious in origin as "cherry picking." If there's a massive fundamentalist movement in the US to do the very things we consider problems and impediments to progress, that's not cherry-picking, that's paying attention. Again, the problem doesn't have to be total to be both significant and caused by religious ideology.

My point was here:

 

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

The whole human race of any religion (or lack there of.) has commited astrocities.

 

The point was pick anything. Atheist, Catholic, Jewish whatever, and I can point to an evil person that was atheist, Catholic, Jewish whatever, and use that as an argument to end atheism, Catholicism, and Judiasm.

 

That's why I called it cherry picking. Not that you're wrong, but I can also pick a group and also be right.


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Pineapple,  You repeat

Pineapple, 

You repeat that secular ideas are the primary cause of many harmful acts, but that leads to the question of what distinguishes a secular from religious act. Is it enough for a person to believe sincerely that their own actions are religiously inspired, or is it necessary that they have the theological background to support their views? My answer, as an atheist who doesn't distinguish between religious and cult doctrine, is that any substantial agreement on an interpretation of religious doctrine legitimates it in a practical sense; at least sufficiently to call the religious motive sincere. If a text expert can pluck a passage from scripture that contradicts them, the reality stands that this is an academic exercise. Take a person like Ted Haggard, who may have been in it for power and money exclusively; secular -- bad, but secular -- motives. That didn't prevent him wielding influence over sincerely religious people, who believe that Pastor Ted was distilling their religious obligations into modern political agendas. The net result is the same whether he was honest or not.

Religion is being singled out not because it, alone, is the only possible ideological source of irrational and destructive behavior; but that it's a powerful and prominent one that needs to be countered. So does the Republican party, and corporate lobbying -- as Noam Chomsky would say, it's a complicated world. But any of these issues can easily consume entire lifetimes, without anyone seeing a conclusive result. This site, this organization, focuses on one thing. There are other orgs that focus on other things, and people are free to work with them, too.

An effort to disparage religion isn't meant to be absolute, or suggest it only inspires bad behavior. But it has to be pointed out where it does, and it has to be pointed out strongly to get attention in a country that, in large parts, is violently opposed to heresy. I think your point is valid, but I also think there's a bigger picture with more immediate elements in it.


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hey, i'm back, i was just

hey, i'm back, i was just curious, i bet you guys answered this before but i was curious for a REAL answer, what would you guys do if you got hit by a car and woke up one day on the other side, sitting right in front of this "fake" god. just for the sake of argument, try to entertain this thought...

 

IF god is real, the christian god, then that means he IS all knowing, sovereign, ominscient, omnipresent and so forth. that would mean (for the sake of argument), he can do what he wants when he wants without answering to anyone at all. that kind of a god is impossible to rationalize, rational responders. 

 

i am not trying to be difficult but i dont see how you guys turn other people into atheists. bottom line is, IF he is real, no one would be able to disprove it. i dont know if you all know descartes theory on existance. he questions the belief of god. what do you think of that. no one answered this question i asked earlier about where the gases came from. where did creation come from. science is pretty cool but you have to realize that it cannot explain everything. i know many scientists hate the idea of intelligent design and dont even acknowledge it as being science, but i think it kinda makes sense. where did everything come from. no one ever answers that. science uses facts and tangeable things to prove the physical. how can science ever satisfy the question of where everything came from. they will always shred it down to the smallest substance, an atom, a nuetron, a cell, gases... but who made all those. where did nothing come from? 


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also, someone said i was

also, someone said i was curious about joining you guys in atheism. been there done that. i was and someone assumed i was raised religious, then had a crisis and accepted jesus.

 

wrong, it didnt go down like that. i couldnt see how he was real and then i went to a church with my friends ( and like what happened to paul), i heard an interpreter tell me some pretty weird stuff that no one else knew. it was pretty specific and undeniable real. i had a million encounters like that. some one on the train one day stopped me and told me all about myself and said god told them to tell me this. creepy!

 

also, when i was younger, i was curious about if he was real, i lost a ring and cried about it. my mom was crazy and she was going to kill me. i remember til this day where i left that ring. i was screwed cause i knew if i went back there it would be gone. i left in that same day in a public bathroom at mc donalds-lol. i prayed for the first time that day, i must have been seven. i did not want my mom to hit me or choke me or something. i opened my eyes and it was right there

 

you can well believe its a lie but people like me that DID  experience some wicked crazy unexplainable stuff like that... there is no other answer but that he is real.


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Quote: also, when i was

Quote:
also, when i was younger, i was curious about if he was real, i lost a ring and cried about it. my mom was crazy and she was going to kill me. i remember til this day where i left that ring. i was screwed cause i knew if i went back there it would be gone. i left in that same day in a public bathroom at mc donalds-lol. i prayed for the first time that day, i must have been seven. i did not want my mom to hit me or choke me or something. i opened my eyes and it was right there

And this proves that there's a super-hero who created the world, and made the Jews his favorite people until he got tired of having them kill goats so that he could forgive them for being the way he made them, and then came down to earth so that the Jews could kill him, and then didn't really die, but went back up to heaven so that everybody who believes that the bible, which wasn't written until nearly a century after he lived, is true, could go to happy land when they die?

I'd call that being really gullible, but that's just me.

 

Quote:
you can well believe its a lie but people like me that DID  experience some wicked crazy unexplainable stuff like that... there is no other answer but that he is real.

Or, perhaps the only people who came into that bathroom were either:

A) Good people who recognized that someone might come back for the ring -- remember, they weren't sure that you  weren't right outside of the bathroom coming back to get it!  They had no idea how long it had been there....

or

B) Just weren't interested in having your ring.

 

There.  I've just given you a perfectly good explanation.  It's not unexplainable.  You just want to believe that god is watching out for you.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Focusedoc wrote: no one

Focusedoc wrote:

no one answered this question i asked earlier about where the gases came from. where did creation come from. science is pretty cool but you have to realize that it cannot explain everything. i know many scientists hate the idea of intelligent design and dont even acknowledge it as being science, but i think it kinda makes sense. where did everything come from. no one ever answers that. science uses facts and tangeable things to prove the physical. how can science ever satisfy the question of where everything came from. they will always shred it down to the smallest substance, an atom, a nuetron, a cell, gases... but who made all those. where did nothing come from?

You haven't really addressed any of the other responses to your post.

However, there are several possible theories regarding the origins of the universe, and none of them require god. You can find an article about one such example here. As our understanding of mathematics and quantum physics increases we are able to develop better models of what actually happened.


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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
also, when i was younger, i was curious about if he was real, i lost a ring and cried about it. my mom was crazy and she was going to kill me. i remember til this day where i left that ring. i was screwed cause i knew if i went back there it would be gone. i left in that same day in a public bathroom at mc donalds-lol. i prayed for the first time that day, i must have been seven. i did not want my mom to hit me or choke me or something. i opened my eyes and it was right there

And this proves that there's a super-hero who created the world, and made the Jews his favorite people until he got tired of having them kill goats so that he could forgive them for being the way he made them, and then came down to earth so that the Jews could kill him, and then didn't really die, but went back up to heaven so that everybody who believes that the bible, which wasn't written until nearly a century after he lived, is true, could go to happy land when they die?

I'd call that being really gullible, but that's just me.

Quote:
you can well believe its a lie but people like me that DID experience some wicked crazy unexplainable stuff like that... there is no other answer but that he is real.

Or, perhaps the only people who came into that bathroom were either:

A) Good people who recognized that someone might come back for the ring -- remember, they weren't sure that you weren't right outside of the bathroom coming back to get it! They had no idea how long it had been there....

or

B) Just weren't interested in having your ring.

 

There. I've just given you a perfectly good explanation. It's not unexplainable. You just want to believe that god is watching out for you.

 

 

no loser, i had gone home, i was home and i left the ring long behind in that restaurant. no one picked it up in that bathroom and got to my house right before i did and placed it on the dresser that i would happen to kneel near and pray. you look for everything. i'm not saying it was proving all those facts you said. its still an unexplainable super natural encounter that i had. later on like ten years later i became a christian. i was saying it was a supernautaral experience. 


magilum
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  Focusedoc wrote: hey,

 

Focusedoc wrote:
hey, i'm back, i was just curious, i bet you guys answered this before but i was curious for a REAL answer, what would you guys do if you got hit by a car and woke up one day on the other side, sitting right in front of this "fake" god. just for the sake of argument, try to entertain this thought...

I'd be scared of the trident. We're talking about Poseidon right? I'm making a serious point here. Believing in one deity doesn't let you out of this question either; and when you consider the number of deities that have been worshipped over the history of mankind -- from sun gods, animism and nature worship to elaborate pantheons and various monotheistic deities -- you realize the question is based on special pleading. That is, you're making the assumption that there is one god in particular to believe or deny, when there are thousands.
Focusedoc wrote:
IF god is real, the christian god, then that means he IS all knowing, sovereign, ominscient, omnipresent and so forth.

Yikes, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent -- omnimax. If you think about these terms, the idea that such a being created this world/cosmos makes even less sense. Think about it: why would an omniscient god need to do anything? It would know everything simultaneously, so nothing could be accomplish by acting. And acting wouldn't alter its knowledge. It would be the ultimate nihilism. An omnipotent deity would make absolutely no sense as a designer. It implies a god would have found a great way to work around physical principles to achieve an end. But it would have to create those principles first; being all-knowing, it would already know what limitations would arise, and could choose not to create limitations. And again, there'd be nothing to accomplish.
Focusedoc wrote:
that would mean (for the sake of argument), he can do what he wants when he wants without answering to anyone at all. that kind of a god is impossible to rationalize, rational responders.

Special pleading, again. Most modern concepts of deities are defined as invisible. Ever wonder why?
Focusedoc wrote:
i am not trying to be difficult but i dont see how you guys turn other people into atheists.

Here's a preview of a show featuring a Fijian dude who de-converted because of this site.
http://www.freethoughtmedia.com/public/store/preview/Show20Preview.mp3
Focusedoc wrote:
bottom line is, IF he is real, no one would be able to disprove it.

I can define something right now that you can't disprove. There's an invisible, undetectable man living in your eyebrow that is nonetheless real. You don't believe he exists, which is exactly what he wants. Is that a good argument for it? All your religion has going for it, to make it sound more credible than the man in your eyebrow, is tradition.
Focusedoc wrote:
i dont know if you all know descartes theory on existance. he questions the belief of god. what do you think of that.

You got me there. I haven't read any Decartes.
Focusedoc wrote:
no one answered this question i asked earlier about where the gases came from.

Gasses?
Focusedoc wrote:
where did creation come from.

No good: You've got your conclusion in the question. There's the question where energy came from, or why there's something rather than nothing. There are theories. My answer is "I don't know." I do know that sticking a "god" in there doesn't answer anything. "God" was as useful in Catholic astronomy as it is to "Creation Science" today. People were content believing the earth was the center of the universe, orbited by planets embedded in crystal spheres, pushed by cherubs. That has as much use to the space program as "Intelligent Design" has to the biological sciences.
Focusedoc wrote:
science is pretty cool but you have to realize that it cannot explain everything.

And for the most part, the alternative is not knowing.
Focusedoc wrote:
i know many scientists hate the idea of intelligent design and dont even acknowledge it as being science, but i think it kinda makes sense.

Not by a long shot.
Focusedoc wrote:
where did everything come from. no one ever answers that. science uses facts and tangeable things to prove the physical. how can science ever satisfy the question of where everything came from.

Do you not see the difference between a body of knowledge built on centuries of careful testing and observation? Methods that go to extreme efforts to minimize the role of subjectivity and personal bias? Models of reality that have been supported by, well, the entire body of technological progress? The difference between that, and something that is believed because it's comforting?
Focusedoc wrote:
they will always shred it down to the smallest substance, an atom, a nuetron, a cell, gases... but who made all those. where did nothing come from?

What's your incredulity about gasses? Your question is... all wrong. Sorry.

 


Focusedoc
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