I'm just very curious...
Offline I am a Catholic...please don't hang me yet. I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind because I know I could never do that. I'm not here to try to judge anyone because it's not my place. I just kinda wanna know everyone's thoughts on this. BTW, I've used this with theists and atheists alike. If it makes me feel better to make the sign of the cross across my forehead, chest, and shoulders why should anyone have a problem with that? I have no issue with atheists at all. I just feel like at the end of the day, if it works for you to not believe, or to believe in a Christian god, or Hindu gods why can't everyone just live with that? Also, I know that some people will come back and say "Christians judge us and try to change us, so we have every right to do the same back." I certainly think that's true. I think you do have that right, however I just wanna know on the Atheist and Theist side, what people's thoughts are on this. Once again, I don't want people to think I'm attacking anyone or trying to get a rise...I'm not...I just want some rational, logical, respectful answers. Thank you.
Welcome to the forums, Richhanley. I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
I personally don't care what anyone believes. If you want to believe in god, or various gods, that's fine with me. You have absolutely every right to.
However, I do care when one person's beliefs affect the life of another person. I care very much when people's belief systems make their way into our government, and our schools. That is where the issue lies.
As an example, I see no reason why a homosexual couple should not be afforded the same rights as a heterosexual couple. The reason they are denied this is because of religious dogma. I have a problem with that.
Is that what you were looking for? Hope that helps!
Again, welcome aboard!
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Hi Rich. Welcome.
We don't hang people here unless they start preaching instead of listening and debating. Seems like you'll do fine!
In theory, it ought to be fine for anyone to believe anything they want, but the simple fact is that any belief that you hold that affects me personally goes beyond that theory.
Let me give you a short list of things that religion is working towards in America:
*Teaching that the world is 6000 years old. In schools.
*Ending research into stem cells, possibly the most exciting and promising area of medicine for 50 years.
*Discriminating against gays
*Actively encouraging "the end times" by invading Iran. (I'm not kidding about this. Former Attorney General John Ashcroft is, and has always been, an active member of a group who openly advocates this ludicrous idea!)
* Abstinence only sex-ed, which has been repeatedly demonstrated to be the worst possible sex-ed for preventing pregnancy, HIV, and other STDs.
*Ending a woman's right to an abortion
In Georgia, where I live, it is illegal to buy alcohol on Sundays. Any idea what was behind the original laws regarding prohibition? Yep. Religion. It's still around, and keeps me from opening my bar on Sundays.
That's just a short list. Trust me. I know it's hard for a lot of Christians to understand that their morality is not, in fact, unquestionably the best morality in the world. It's not, though. Not only is it not the best, it's one of the worst in a lot of ways. There have been very clear, peer reviewed, verified studies demonstrating that the most religious countries are in fact the most immoral, based on things like sexual crime, violent crime, murder, teen pregnancy, and STD rates.
Here's the next reason that religion affects me.
In a recent survey, 63% of respondents said they wouldn't vote for an atheist for president simply because he was an atheist. You think that doesn't sting for us?
In another study, atheists turned up as the most distrusted and hated group in America, beneath lawyers.
So, if god really is a fantasy, (which, of course, I believe) then your acceptance of the religion, and therefore, your tacit approval of all the things I mentioned above, contributes to me being part of the most reviled group of people in the country.
Yeah, it affects me.
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
Beyond the excellent points Hamby made above, there is the fact that theism promotes a worldview from which any action, no matter how contrary to ones natural moral sensibilities, can be justified. The only difference between the average Sunday or Wednesday church going American Christian and those who blow themselves up in Middle Eastern markets and fly planes into buildings is that the American Christian doesn't believe his god has given him the go ahead, or required him, to do such a thing... yet.
I'm not saying that the average Christian would ever believe that their god wanted them to do such a thing, but the mindset that it could be not only justified but moraly required is there. They believe that there is a being whom has every right to require them to do such a thing and holds their eternal pleasure/suffering in its hands as leverage. For me to simply accept, and thereby condone, that a vast majority of the population walks around with this highly dangerous concept in their heads, considering themselves special as compared to those of different beliefs, would be irresponsible.
It is the fact that theism is a completely unnecessary, easily abused and highly dangerous worldview that prompts me to do what I can to discourage its continued existence.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
thank you guys...I was just curious...In my own opinion it seems to me that alot of Christians have perverted what in my opinion began as a very good thing. Christianity, in its purest form, is the same as any other religion or morality system...The basis of it is essentially just be nice to people...you know? Don't steal, don't kill, don't cheat...basic principles of morality. It seems that many Christians feel the need to judge others, whether their Muslims, Jews, Non believers, and I just feel like that is completely against the message they should be preaching which is judge that ye shall not be judged. I feel like their Christianity is a major perversion of what it should be.
What makes you believe this?
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
Spreading the ideals of "be nice to people" is great and I think more people should do it. These happy go lucky, mind their own business, respect the First Amendment, don't bomb abortion clinic, don't boycott poly businesses and ruin their lives...sort of Christians are always welcome. Granted, I still think they're worshiping their imaginary friends but who cares if they just keep it to themselves.
As hamby so painfully pointed out, it's the activist anti-civil liberty psychos that are the problem.
What do you mean what makes me believe that?
Why would I not believe that there is good at the heart of most religion?
I mean, how do you go through the history of Christianity and determine what pure Christianity is?
Can you point me to a historical period when pure Christianity was practiced?
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
One would guess never. Had Jesus existed, wouldn't the Gospel of Mark cause some serious issues? In this gospel, Jesus gets pissed at a fig tree for not bearing fruit for him, even though figs were not in season. You don't see a lot of turning the other cheek there.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
ok, in which case, I have another question...which is .. what does an atheist believe is the point of religion? If there really isn't any good at the heart of religion, and if my god doesn't exist, there must be a logical reason religion exists...so what is that reason?
I think religion was invented to explainable the unexplainable. It was also used as an early guide to living. People would die from trychonosis, for example, so making it a sin to eat pork makes sense. Damning a woman to hell (or stoning her alive) because she had premarital or extramarital sex assures her husband that the children she bears are indeed his. After all, his lands and assets would be passed down to his heirs.
Why does religion still exist? Because it is so interwoven with society and culture. Think about how different the Western culture is compared to the Middle East. Now think how differently those religions really are. The same goes for Eastern religions.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
am i right to assume then, that atheists truly believe there is absolutely no good at the heart of religion?
I wouldn't say that, but we'd say it does more harm than good - I'd explain it is taking OxyContin for a mild headache.
Well thank you all very much for this...I got the answers to the questions I had...I'll probably check back on here every so often to see what else people think...but otherwise thanks for your insights and take care.
If no one's said it yet I feel I should. No atheist makes claims for all atheists. Many are live and let live about religion, but there probably are not going to be many here that feel that way.
I think the heart of religion is myth and ritual, doesn't add too much good and the good that is added can be done in other ways. The problem is when it does bad even worse is when the followers think they are doing good or it doesn't matter. There is also the aspect of “you can't question this because I believe this.”
I do appreciate that as well...i understand that no one atheist, christian, buddhist, whatever can speak for the entire group so thank you for that. Also, I forget I did have one more question...I know that as a Christian, I have questioned my faith...do Atheists do the same? Do Atheists ever think..."Hey what if...? What if I'm wrong?" Once again, for anyone reading this...I'm not trying to attack anyone or change anyone's mind...I'm just rather curious and I just want some respectful and rational answers. Thank you.
I don't care if you make the sign of the cross, pray, cast spells, do a rain dance or anything else, just as long as you don't try to make everyone else do it. You're free to follow your religion, just like everyone else who has a different one is free to follow theirs and people who have none at all are free to not adopt one. Treat your religion as if it were a private matter between you and the god you believe in, not a public spectacle.
When I was younger I tried to believe in god but it just... didn't work. I read a lot about various religions to try to see if I could find the right one and eventually came to the realization that there wasn't a right one. There was simply no god, which is what I thought all along. There are times when I wish I was wrong (like when a loved one dies) but I simply cannot see any supernatural force existing.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
We have a different definition of how one would go about questioning ones faith. To question faith one would need to step outside it and apply reason to the question. "Is there any reason to believe in God?" one my ask ... but how they try to attain the answer is where the real questioning comes in.
If my answer to the question comes from what I am told by my priest and by society at large then it is possible that I never actually tested my faith.
I believe that to question what one believes they must apply impartial logic to the question.
Absolutely. And if we are using our brains instead of responding to emotion we will think about the question rationally. We will come to the conclusion that there is and never has been any evidence that superpowers and zombies have ever existed. If we apply the same question to other mythological creatures like unicorns we come up with a reasonable answer ... "what if I'm wrong about unicorns? what if?"
What is the logical answer to that question?
I'm not sure where I'd place this 'heart' which you refer too.
If we are talking about the spirit of religion or the true meaning of religion...that is the fault of religion for being so vague and the fault of it's people for using scripture to dominate all with different belief systems. There are more than enough examples of how the kind and loving 'heart' of religion has been used to marginalize and oppress innocent peoples. There may indeed be something good at this mystical 'heart' of religion...but you are swimming up hill if you want to convince reasonable people that it has ever been displayed as such.
I'm sure that Hitler was a decent enough guy if you get all the way down to who he 'really' was. Judging by his actions though, he was a fascist fuckwad with nothing but violence and domination in mind. Good heart or no, his actions were quite descriptive.
I know it is generally a bad idea to compare things/ideas/people to Hitler just because of the emotional response it brings on, but it is relevant for this particular question.
For me the answer is no for the simple reason that there is nothing for me to wonder "Might I be wrong?" about. Most theists I have conversed with seem to have no understanding of the fact that I see absolutely no reason to question whether or not there is a god. There is no reason to ever think that such a 'whatever' is a possibility and therefor no reason to ever question such an existence. Personally, I amazed by the fact that people seem to believe in this thing when I can't even understand what it is they are talking about beyond calling anything which they don't understand 'god'. It is beyond my abilities to even begin to question whether or not I'm wrong when I can't even understand what I might be wrong about.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
wow...lol that last response confused me for a moment...but i got it now...now i know this point has been made but i can't recall the answer...I have no real factual proof of any kind of higher deity...that is true....all of you in particular know this as it is what you spend a good amount of time saying...all I have is my own faith, however, you have no proof that there isn't a god. what is the text book atheist response to that?
It confuses me when I go back and read it as well. Its this damned stream of consciousness thought process borderline insanity thing I do that often doesn't translate well, especially in text, but good to know you figured it out. You should be in there where that gets created. Its dark and crowded and, most often, really scarey. Anyway...
The standard atheist response is that you can't prove a negative. There is no burden of proof on the atheist.
My response is similar, but very possibly unnecessarily wordy. Proving that things don't exist is not the way one normally goes about determining what is reality and what is not. It is in fact impossible to prove that something does not exist and therefor not an effective method of determing what is and what is not. The only method that actually works is not believing in things for which there is no evidence, such as space beavers. Without evidence of existence to attempt to find evidence of non-existence is nothing short of non-sensical.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Rich,
I noticed you didn't answer my question about how you know about pure Christianity.
Do you have an answer, or is it just something you kind of believe?
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
Sorry Hamby, I didn't purposely overlook it...i just thought that it was sort of rhetorical...anyway as far as that goes...I guess yes it's just sort of an assumption I have...however I've been brought up in the church and I am a firm believer in my faith...so yes your argument holds up...I don't have any real rational reason by your standards...but it's enough for me. That's probably the answer that will get me hanged lol. Sorry guys.
We won't hang you, but it will be difficult to take your opinions as seriously. No offense, but it's hard for us atheist types to understand why you theist types demand evidence for everything but religion.
I mean, damn... for something that has so much control over people personally, and wields so much political power! I'd think you'd want to think it through more.
But then, that's probably why i'm an atheist.
If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins
Not possible. If you read the Genesis creation account carefully, no measure of time existed before Day Four. This puts the possibility of a 24-hour day in the crapper. I don't believe that the Earth is young, and honest theists shouldn't either.
The agreement/disagreement is whe