The cancer lady. [locked]

Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
The cancer lady. [locked]

Was it just me or was that lady in the audience who kept pushing Kirk to answer her question a complete moron? He was trying to answer her, and she kept interrupting him and accusing him of avoiding the question which he wasn't doing. What a retard. Why did God allow cancer? The answer to that question is the same answer to why God allows any and all suffering to befall us. And Kirk was trying to answer that broader question, when he kept being very rudely interrupted. God didn't create suffering. He didn't create cancer. He created people with free will, and those people's decisions have caused all the evil in the world, including cancer.

The bible says that the world itself was condemned because of man's sin.

Granted that was a Christian-biblical answer to the question, but that is what was being asked. That question was being asked assuming God was real and Christianity was real. If that is true, then the bible must be the source of the answer to that question.

One angel originally created evil. Then one man recreated it. Evil is nothing more than disobedience to God. For disobedience to God to exist there must be some created thing with the ability to choose whether or not to obey God. That is why sin did not exist prior to the creation of angels. God did not make the angel sin, nor did he make the man sin. He only told them what to do and gave them the free will to obey or not. They chose to not obey. They have suffered the consequences.

 

That just irked me a little. And then I think I saw somewhere on this website bragging about the fact that Kirk couldn't even answer an audience member's question. Please.....Maybe if she would've shut up long enough for him to answer he could have.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Vessel wrote: Musicdude

Vessel wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
I've already explained that several times. If you don't pay attention that is your problem. Blaming God for your inadequacies is a futile effort. Having the ability to be evil does not mean you must be evil. You have a choice. You could just as easily choose good. God created sentient beings with free will. They chose to use that will for evil. God created choice. Man created evil (or re-created it, because technically Satan created it first.)

Let's say I have freewill. I have the freewill to choose to kill someone if I desire to do so. I have never killed anyone. Does this mean I do not have the freewill to choose to do so? Of course not. It simply means I do not act on my ability. This does not turn me into a robot. My freewill remains intact even if I do not utilize it to choose to do evil.

There is no reason I need to act on my ability in order to retain my freewill to be able to choose to act on my ability. Thus, it should be possible for a god who is responsible for every parameter of existence, as an omni-max god must necessarily be, to create those who possess freewill but freely choose to never act on their ability to do evil. If this god does not do this then he is solely responsible for the fact that his creations do evil.

How can evil be blamed on freewill when freewill does not require the choice to do evil?  

If we choose to not do evil, then yes, that retains free will but no one goes to Hell. But we won't choose that. History has proven it. It's not a single choice. It is a lifetime of choices between good and evil. We may choose correctly on some, but no one has ever chosen correctly on all of them, save Christ. The only way we could do that as pure humans is if God made us do it, and that would prove nothing to Satan. When we choose righteousness, that convicts Satan. If we were forced, it would prove nothing. And that is the purpose why we are here, as witnesses for the prosecution in the appeal trial of Satan.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
JWMaher wrote: Musicdude

JWMaher wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
I've already explained that several times. If you don't pay attention that is your problem. Blaming God for your inadequacies is a futile effort. Having the ability to be evil does not mean you must be evil. You have a choice. You could just as easily choose good. God created sentient beings with free will. They chose to use that will for evil. God created choice. Man created evil (or re-created it, because technically Satan created it first.)

This is absurd logic.

If I have a bunch of kids, and I explain to them the rules to play "Rock, Paper, Scissors," the first kid to throw rock did not introduce the concept of rock to the game. 

I don't follow your analogy.

No one said that Adam and Eve introduced the concept of sin. They may have introduced it to humanity, since they were the first humans. But not the world. Satan had sinned way before they were ever created.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


Andyy
Andyy's picture
Posts: 182
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
JWMaher wrote:   This is

JWMaher wrote:

 

This is absurd logic.

Musicdude has already denied logic, so I doubt your point will mean anything to him. 


jcgadfly
Superfan
Posts: 6791
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
You didn't have to. Paul did

You didn't have to say anything about Adam and Eve, musicdude.  Paul did (Romans 5:12)


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: If we

Musicdude wrote:
If we choose to not do evil, then yes, that retains free will but no one goes to Hell. But we won't choose that. History has proven it. It's not a single choice. It is a lifetime of choices between good and evil. We may choose correctly on some, but no one has ever chosen correctly on all of them, save Christ.

This is very much an ad hoc rationalization that does not even go to the problem. The problem as presented has nothing to do with what we do choose but that it is possible for us to retain freewill and not choose evil. That we do choose evil does not remove the responsibility from a creator, if there is one, when it is possible for us to retain freewill without choosing to do evil.

Quote:
The only way we could do that as pure humans is if God made us do it, and that would prove nothing to Satan. When we choose righteousness, that convicts Satan.

This is about human freewill and the Christian's god being responsible, if he were to exist, for the existence of evil. Satan has nothing to do with it unless you are proposing that the only reason evil exists is as a means to convict Satan in which case human beings are nothing but pawns in some godly chess game and the god could not be said to be loving in any way that we might understand the term. 

 

Quote:
If we were forced, it would prove nothing. And that is the purpose why we are here, as witnesses for the prosecution in the appeal trial of Satan.

No one is saying anything about being forced. I am not forced to not commit murder. I do not because I freely choose not to. In the same way every being in your created existence could be created with the ability to choose evil but not the desire to do so. That they are not leaves the creator solely responsible for the fact that evil is done.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Andyy wrote: JWMaher

Andyy wrote:
JWMaher wrote:

 

This is absurd logic.

Musicdude has already denied logic, so I doubt your point will mean anything to him. 

Do you think that is contributing anything at all to this discussion by making little snide comments like that? If so, what?

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Vessel wrote: Musicdude

Vessel wrote:

Musicdude wrote:
If we choose to not do evil, then yes, that retains free will but no one goes to Hell. But we won't choose that. History has proven it. It's not a single choice. It is a lifetime of choices between good and evil. We may choose correctly on some, but no one has ever chosen correctly on all of them, save Christ.

This is very much an ad hoc rationalization that does not even go to the problem. The problem as presented has nothing to do with what we do choose but that it is possible for us to retain freewill and not choose evil. That we do choose evil does not remove the responsibility from a creator, if there is one, when it is possible for us to retain freewill without choosing to do evil.

Quote:
The only way we could do that as pure humans is if God made us do it, and that would prove nothing to Satan. When we choose righteousness, that convicts Satan.

This is about human freewill and the Christian's god being responsible, if he were to exist, for the existence of evil. Satan has nothing to do with it unless you are proposing that the only reason evil exists is as a means to convict Satan in which case human beings are nothing but pawns in some godly chess game and the god could not be said to be loving in any way that we might understand the term. 

 

Quote:
If we were forced, it would prove nothing. And that is the purpose why we are here, as witnesses for the prosecution in the appeal trial of Satan.

No one is saying anything about being forced. I am not forced to not commit murder. I do not because I freely choose not to. In the same way every being in your created existence could be created with the ability to choose evil but not the desire to do so. That they are not leaves the creator solely responsible for the fact that evil is done.

I really am enjoying this conversation, but it's time to leave work now, and I have a four day weekend this week, so I gotta run. I'll pick it back up on Monday.

Later people.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:
zarathustra wrote:
It would be better to ask wtf was god thinking.
If by "better" you mean "insanely arrogant" then I agree.

No. By "better" I did not mean "insanely arrogant". Do you think I'm speaking with an accent or something?

Musicdude wrote:
If this is true (which granted you don't believe it is) who are we to question God's motives?

What do you mean IF it is true? If god you speak of exists, it must be true -- until you argue otherwise. The only alternative is that the god you speak of does not exist.

Musicdude wrote:
Quote:
Being able to create in whatever way desired (omnipotence), and being able to determine the effects of said creation (omniscience), god nonetheless chose to create us this way, then condemn us for the imperfect situtation that he/she/it/they authored, and knew would occur.
No, He didn't condemn us for being imperfect. He condemned us for disobeying Him.

I think you're simply quibbling now on my choice of words, although you know very well what I'm saying. I only used "imperfect" since you previously said that god created us "perfect". To adopt your new terminology: god could have created us in whatever way desired (omnipotence), knew we would disobey when created such a way (omnisciene), decided that disobedience should warrant condemnation -- and went ahead and created us anyway; thus god is the primary cause of said disobedience.

Musicdude wrote:
Angels aren't perfect either (see Satan) but some of them never disobeyed God to this day. It's not a matter of imperfect. It's a matter of free will. The ability to choose your thoughts and actions. The ability to choose to obey or disobey. Imperfection only implies the possibility of disobedience, not the inevitability of it.

but...once again...god knew we would choose to disobey. god could have created us differently, or not created us altogether.

OR... and this is the simple, elegant explanation - god just doesn't exist.

Musicdude wrote:
Again, this is not all about mankind. There is a bigger picture here. When God created mankind He had a purpose in mind, and that purpose was not to have a planet with tons of happy smiling people holding hands around the world.

Of course not. The purpose was to have a heaven with 144,000 happy, smiling people holding hands, and tons of tormented wailing people suffering for all eternity in hell. A much nobler purpose by all accounts.

Musicdude wrote:
I'm curious. Do you even know what those "rules" are?

Does anybody?

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
In essence, god created eternal suffering out of nothing. It would have been better not to have created anything at all. WTF was god thinking.
I'm not convinced.

You're not convinced, or you don't want to be convinced? If there's a flaw in my statement, point it out please. Otherwise, be convinced.

Musicdude wrote:
Let's say you are correct, and what God did was neither fair nor just. What does that change?

It means: Flawed, imperfect being that I am, I have a better sense of fairness and justice than god does.

Musicdude wrote:
You might say you don't want to serve a God who is unfair or unjust. But would you rather go to Hell than serve Him?

Serve a tyrant who creates people just to torture them? I'd choose hell on general principle.

Musicdude wrote:

What does serving Him mean? Respecting your fellow man. Studying the bible. Are those things so horrible? Are they worth going to Hell over?

Nothing horrible about respecting your fellow man. The foregoing discussion should indicate that I respect people more than god does. I don't wish eternal suffering on anyone -- I certainly wouldn't create someone if I knew in advance they would end up suffering eternally.

As far as the bible: Yes, it really is that horrible.

Musicdude wrote:
But that is irrelevant. You don't believe God is unfair. You believe He doesn't exist.

Correct. A non-existent god beats an unfair, unjust god any day of the week (including the sabbath).

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Andyy
Andyy's picture
Posts: 182
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: Do you

Musicdude wrote:
Do you think that is contributing anything at all to this discussion by making little snide comments like that? If so, what?

But you HAVE denied logic.

You have admitted:

God knows everything (future included)

God CHOSE to create man, knowing man would do evil

And then you absolve God of all responsibility of evil.

 That my friend, is a text book case of a logical contradiction, yt you hold to it.  Either you are denying logic, or you lack the capacity to understand logic.  Can't think of a third option here...

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: No, we

Musicdude wrote:
No, we aren't condemned because of sin anymore. That ended at the cross. Now we are condemned because of unbelief in Christ. John 3:36 states this precisely.

It is way, way, way more than fair. If God did what was fair, we would have no second chance. We would all be condemned and there would be no hope.
But in His grace, He gave us an easy way out of condemnation, and at a great cost to Himself.

You call that woman crazy when you spout delusional stupidity like this? What a moron. How the hell can an omniscient and omnipotent being have a cost to himself? You belong in grade school.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Slimm
Superfan
Slimm's picture
Posts: 167
Joined: 2007-03-15
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: Slimm

Musicdude wrote:
Slimm wrote:

Musicdude just try THINKING LOGICALLY about everything you just said, lol.

This is a Mad World...

I stand by what I said. I don't need a bunch of unbelievers to tell me what the book I live my life by says. The word of God is a pretty deep book, and it can't just be skimmed through and taken out of context. And it also can't be understood by unbelievers. 1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. If God created evil it would contradict about 60 differents verses in the bible. You quote a single verse and you've got it all figured out. I will not argue about the word of God with unbelievers. It is an utter waste of time. Whether you agree with my explanation, or Kirk's, or neither, my point was that lady didn't have a clue. She kept accusing him of avoiding the question and he wasn't. As far as thinking logically goes...I don't think the same way you do, nor do I want to. I think logically, but my viewpoint is entirely different. I somewhat compare my spiritual life to the movie the Matrix. I feel like I see exactly what is going on "I've been unplugged from the unreal world" and everyone else around me is going about their daily lives, oblivious. I don't want to be plugged back into slavery.

Again, this is a Mad World...

Quote:
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called Insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called Religion." - Robert M. Pirsig,


Giant Moth
Giant Moth's picture
Posts: 16
Joined: 2007-05-17
User is offlineOffline
This is what happens when a

This is what happens when a religion tries to hold too many balls up at the same time. Since Christianity and all the other mainstream religions chose to include everything in their dogma, this is what they get.

Residential Swedish Moth


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
I have reconsidering my

I have reconsidered my decision to post here.

For your sakes I hope you are all right, and this whole God thing is just a man-made psychological crutch and not reality. Because if I am wrong, I've lived a great life and have no regrets. If you're wrong, woe be unto you. So, like I said, I hope you're right for your sake. You'd better be damn sure.

See you rational thinkers later. Keep on being open-minded (those of you who actually have been open-minded.)

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: I have

Musicdude wrote:
I have reconsidered my decision to post here.

Why?

Musicdude wrote:
For your sakes I hope you are all right, and this whole God thing is just a man-made psychological crutch and not reality.

Did you just say you hope god doesn't exist?

Musicdude wrote:

Because if I am wrong, I've lived a great life and have no regrets. If you're wrong, woe be unto you. So, like I said, I hope you're right for your sake. You'd better be damn sure.

Don't let Pascal's Wager hit you on the way out.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
zarathustra

zarathustra wrote:

Why?

Because you are not a bunch of rational free-thinkers. You are believing what you are told to believe.

 

Quote:
Did you just say you hope god doesn't exist?

I was being sarcastic.

Don't let Pascal's Wager hit you on the way out.

Pascal's wager does not work. Claiming to believe in God doesn't work. You must actually beleive in God, and more specifically in Christ. You can't fake faith. You may fool some people, but you won't fool God. So there is not a chance of "playing it safe" just in case this whole God thing turns out to be right. You either believe it 100% or not at all. There is no middle-ground.

 

I said I was done, and I'm done. I leave you with these parting words.

 

Quote:
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

You will either take on God's righteousness by faith (Rom 3:22) or you will be judged according to your own righteousness (Rev 20:12). The later will not bode well for you. Not believing in reality does not make it any less real. And when you get there, you won't be able to say no one told you. I just told you, and I'm sure you've heard it before.

 

But if at any point you decide to give the gospel a hearing, it will still be there. Hopefully it will not be too late. But if so, you don't believe in Hell anyway, so what have you got to worry about? Hell is real, whether you believe in it or not. God is real whether you believe in Him or not.

Quote:
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 10:11

For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Someone said earlier that they would not wish anyone to perish eternally. Neither does God. That is why He gave His Son.
Quote:

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

But He did not force you to sin, therefore He cannot force you to repent. It's your choice. God didn't condemn anyone. They condemned themselves. And they have the option to have that condemnation removed, and all it takes is to humble yourself. Sadly, that is something many people just won't do. Their arrogance will cost them dearly.

 

Mods, please do not modify or edit this post. Delete it entirely if you must, but please don't edit it. I could care less if I get labeled a troll and banned, I'm done here anyway. This is my last post.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


marcusfish
Superfan
marcusfish's picture
Posts: 676
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote:   Mods,

Musicdude wrote:

 

Mods, please do not modify or edit this post. Delete it entirely if you must, but please don't edit it. I could care less if I get labeled a troll and banned, I'm done here anyway. This is my last post.

*sniffle*

Here's what I don't get. The basic understanding about this forum is that it is infested with atheists. Keeping that in mind, how does it seem logical to come into this den of sin and quote the bible? I mean, quoting the bible is only relevant if you go under the assumption that it is self-evident. What are the odds that a bunch of atheists hold the bible to be true, simply on it's own insistance that it is?

I don't get it. I must be an idiot. Smiling 


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: ...you

Musicdude wrote:

...you are not a bunch of rational free-thinkers. You are believing what you are told to believe.

How do you figure that?  That would describe my ubringing as a theist, but never my current disposition. 

Are you claiming that you are not believing what you are told to believe?  Are you claiming you arrived at a belief in jesus through rational thought?  Please demonstrate, bearing in mind that quoting passage after passage from the bible does not consitute rational thought.

I was waiting for you to find the flaw in my previous statement: 

Quote:
In essence, god created eternal suffering out of nothing. It would have been better not to have created anything at all. WTF was god thinking.

 

Musicdude wrote:

 

Quote:
Did you just say you hope god doesn't exist?

I was being sarcastic.

Oh.  Ha ha.

Musicdude wrote:

Pascal's wager does not work.

Correct.  So why are you using it?

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
zarathustra

zarathustra wrote:

Correct.  So why are you using it?

I'm not. I said if I'm right, you are screwed. I didn't say, you should take that as reason to fake belief in Christ. But maybe to consider it a little more seriously than you may have considered it before.

If I'm right, you're screwed but there's something you can do about it.

If you're right, we're both screwed and there's nothing either of us can do about it.

I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness.

What a depressing cause to take up. Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


marcusfish
Superfan
marcusfish's picture
Posts: 676
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: What a

Musicdude wrote:
What a depressing cause to take up. Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

Fabricating a reality is indeed one way to go about living ones life.

I assert that this is the absense of life. That this is a make believe existance in which the promise of cookies and milk for all time once you're dead is the "reality".  I do not believe that creating imaginary beings to avoid living life is the way to go.


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

Correct.  So why are you using it?

I'm not.

And then... 

 

Quote:
I said if I'm right, you are screwed. I didn't say, you should take that as reason to fake belief in Christ. But maybe to consider it a little more seriously than you may have considered it before.

If I'm right, you're screwed but there's something you can do about it.

If you're right, we're both screwed and there's nothing either of us can do about it.

Of course, I guess if your whole worldview is inherently self contradictory to say such a thing probably doesn't seem absurd at all. 

Quote:
I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness.

What a depressing cause to take up. Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

Becuse these people aren't capable of keeping their hope out of everyone else's business as is made evident by the fact that you are here quoting scripture and hoping to 'save' people. Beliefs don't exist in a vacuum and religious people's beliefs are unnecessary, dogmatic and dangerous and they try and infect the entirity of society with them.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


ShaunPhilly
High Level ModeratorSilver Member
ShaunPhilly's picture
Posts: 473
Joined: 2006-03-15
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

Correct. So why are you using it?

I'm not. I said if I'm right, you are screwed. I didn't say, you should take that as reason to fake belief in Christ. But maybe to consider it a little more seriously than you may have considered it before.

I do take it seriously. I'll not speak for anyone else, but I assume that most people do here as well. In fact, the lengthy, often painful, process of leaing one's faith requires serious thought. Many people have mad ethat journey, so I assume they have taken it seriously.

Quote:
If I'm right, you're screwed but there's something you can do about it.

If you're right, we're both screwed and there's nothing either of us can do about it.

How are we screwed if there is no God?

And there may be plenty we can do about "it" (whatever that is).

Quote:
I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness.

You are talking about a hoe for a problem that i don't believe exists. I'm offering hope that the world can be improved, we can enjoy our lives, and we can make it a better world by our own (imperfect) efforts.

I don't feel hopelessness. In the face of indoctrination, ignorance, and fear I often feel frustration, but only rarely any hopelessness. My hope increases every time I see what humanity is capable of that is constructive, beautiful, and creative.

Right now, from you, I'm seeing fear that is expressed through defensiveness.

Quote:
What a depressing cause to take up. Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

There is hope. God is not the source of hope. Human empathy, love, and a desire to make things better is.

Milton wrote:
Long is the way and hard that out of hell leads up to light

I take this in a secular sense. If we intend to climb our way out of the ills that plague humanity, we need to start working for this life, for these bodies, and we must all start doing it ten years ago.

If, somehow, you were convinced that a god did not exist, would you stop desiring good for the people around you? I have never believed in god, and I desire to see good for you, for the people on this forum (both theist and atheist), and for the world in general. It's one aspect of most humans to wish this.

Shaun

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Vessel wrote:Musicdude

Vessel wrote:
Musicdude wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

Correct.  So why are you using it?

I'm not.

And then... 

 

Quote:
I said if I'm right, you are screwed. I didn't say, you should take that as reason to fake belief in Christ. But maybe to consider it a little more seriously than you may have considered it before.

If I'm right, you're screwed but there's something you can do about it.

If you're right, we're both screwed and there's nothing either of us can do about it.

Of course, I guess if your whole worldview is inherently self contradictory to say such a thing probably doesn't seem absurd at all. 

Quote:
I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness.

What a depressing cause to take up. Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

Becuse these people aren't capable of keeping their hope out of everyone else's business as is made evident by the fact that you are here quoting scripture and hoping to 'save' people. Beliefs don't exist in a vacuum and religious people's beliefs are unnecessary, dogmatic and dangerous and they try and infect the entirity of society with them.

If you believed you had some knowledge that could save someone's life, would you keep quiet about it? If you knew that speaking it would cause you to be ridiculed, would you be quiet then? If it only cost you a little ridicule to save someone's life, would you do it? That is the situation I'm in. If one single person on this board stops and thinks to himself "maybe this Christian stuff is worth checking into, and just because these people think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is" then it was worth the effort to me.

My motivation for spreading my beliefs is not only to save lives, but to save people's eternal futures. I think that is a just cause. All the evil things you accuse religion of, you cannot rightly accuse me of. I speak for the bible, not religion.

If the bible really is God's word, I may save a few souls with me. If it's wrong, then I have given a few people false hope, and motivation for loving and respecting others. What does that hurt? Nothing.

 

So though your hatred for religion may be well-founded, your hatred of Christianity is nothing but ignorance.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude

Musicdude wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

Correct. So why are you using it?

I'm not.

You are.

zarathustra wrote:
I said if I'm right, you are screwed. I didn't say, you should take that as reason to fake belief in Christ. But maybe to consider it a little more seriously than you may have considered it before.

Maybe you should consider it a little more seriously, mr. perfect. Observe how:

Musicdude wrote:
If I'm right, you're screwed but there's something you can do about it.

And if the muslim or the hindu or any other non-christian theist is right, YOU'RE SCREWED.  This is old news, and if you had considered it seriously, you would realize this.

You still dodge the problem outlined in our previous exchanges: If I don't believe, it is because god created me that way, knowing full well I wouldn't believe. So if I'm screwed, it means god created me to be screwed. And if that's how god operates, god can go screw itself for all I care.

Musicdude wrote:
I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

Hope of what? The hope that you're one of the very few who god created not to be screwed, when the majority of humanity was created to be screwed?

Musicdude wrote:
You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness. What a depressing cause to take up.

Not so. It is not a message of hope that this god that you speak of doesn't exist. A sadistic god who has complete control of how to create us, and complete knowledge of the result, and then punishes us anyway. Nothing could be more depressing than such a god as yours existing.

Musicdude wrote:
Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

Yes, you sound very happy to me. As far as this god goes, yes there truly is no hope -- and you will find it out one of these days. And then you will actually be happy.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
zarathustra

zarathustra wrote:
Musicdude wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

Correct. So why are you using it?

I'm not.

You are.

zarathustra wrote:
I said if I'm right, you are screwed. I didn't say, you should take that as reason to fake belief in Christ. But maybe to consider it a little more seriously than you may have considered it before.

Maybe you should consider it a little more seriously, mr. perfect. Observe how:

Musicdude wrote:
If I'm right, you're screwed but there's something you can do about it.

And if the muslim or the hindu or any other non-christian theist is right, YOU'RE SCREWED.  This is old news, and if you had considered it seriously, you would realize this.

You still dodge the problem outlined in our previous exchanges: If I don't believe, it is because god created me that way, knowing full well I wouldn't believe. So if I'm screwed, it means god created me to be screwed. And if that's how god operates, god can go screw itself for all I care.

Musicdude wrote:
I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

Hope of what? The hope that you're one of the very few who god created not to be screwed, when the majority of humanity was created to be screwed?

Musicdude wrote:
You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness. What a depressing cause to take up.

Not so. It is not a message of hope that this god that you speak of doesn't exist. A sadistic god who has complete control of how to create us, and complete knowledge of the result, and then punishes us anyway. Nothing could be more depressing than such a god as yours existing.

Musicdude wrote:
Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

Yes, you sound very happy to me. As far as this god goes, yes there truly is no hope -- and you will find it out one of these days. And then you will actually be happy.

 

As I said about 5 posts ago, this is useless. Later people.

 

There are other forms of human perception besides rationality, ya know.

 

For those of you honestly looking for the truth, I hope you find it, whatever it may be.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


marcusfish
Superfan
marcusfish's picture
Posts: 676
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: If one

Musicdude wrote:

If one single person on this board stops and thinks to himself "maybe this Christian stuff is worth checking into, and just because these people think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is" then it was worth the effort to me.

No matter how many times I see this, it still aggitates me. This is the assumption that atheists are atheists because we have not really thought about religion / faith. This is absurd.  

Quote:
My motivation for spreading my beliefs is not only to save lives, but to save people's eternal futures.

Save them from what? Eternal torture given to us by your kind and loving god? Thanks. 

Quote:
If the bible really is God's word

Therein lies our disagreement. You assume that it is, we realize that there is no support for such a wild claim.

Quote:
If it's wrong, then I have given a few people false hope, and motivation for loving and respecting others. What does that hurt? Nothing.

As has been said many times before, I am quite capable of loving and respecting others without delusion. Believing that I will be tortured for all time if I do not get on my knees and suck whatever god gives me is not motivation for me to be loving and respectful.  

 

Quote:
So though your hatred for religion may be well-founded, your hatred of Christianity is nothing but ignorance.

You do not consider Christianity to be a religion? It is by far the most powerful religion on this planet.  


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote:Vessel

Musicdude wrote:
Vessel wrote:
Musicdude wrote:
I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness.

What a depressing cause to take up. Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

Becuse these people aren't capable of keeping their hope out of everyone else's business as is made evident by the fact that you are here quoting scripture and hoping to 'save' people. Beliefs don't exist in a vacuum and religious people's beliefs are unnecessary, dogmatic and dangerous and they try and infect the entirity of society with them.

If you believed you had some knowledge that could save someone's life, would you keep quiet about it? If you knew that speaking it would cause you to be ridiculed, would you be quiet then? If it only cost you a little ridicule to save someone's life, would you do it? That is the situation I'm in. If one single person on this board stops and thinks to himself "maybe this Christian stuff is worth checking into, and just because these people think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is" then it was worth the effort to me.

My motivation for spreading my beliefs is not only to save lives, but to save people's eternal futures. I think that is a just cause. All the evil things you accuse religion of, you cannot rightly accuse me of. I speak for the bible, not religion.

If the bible really is God's word, I may save a few souls with me. If it's wrong, then I have given a few people false hope, and motivation for loving and respecting others. What does that hurt? Nothing.

So though your hatred for religion may be well-founded, your hatred of Christianity is nothing but ignorance.

I agree that, given your belief in an all mighty god, you are doing what you should do. Thanks for this as it is a perfect illustration of the reason I oppose theistic belief systems.

Now, in order to be perfectly honest you must admit that if someone managed to convince you that this god, who in your bs (abb. for belief system) holds the eternal fate of all in his 'supernatural' hands, wanted you to torture and kill people in an attempt to save as many souls as possible it would not be wrong. I mean, in the big picture, what would it hurt?

Your belief system dictates that you follow the commands of this entity no matter what the might be. Your illustration, that you truly think you are saving people's eternal souls, makes it obvious that no matter what is asked of you there is nothing that is not acceptable in the name of your god. What finite deed could you possibly consider to be too heinous to commit in the goal of an offering of eternal bliss?

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


marcusfish
Superfan
marcusfish's picture
Posts: 676
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
Vessel wrote: Your belief

Vessel wrote:

Your belief system dictates that you follow the commands of this entity no matter what the might be. Your illustration that you truly think you are saving people's eternal souls makes it obvious that no matter what is asked of you, there is nothing tht is not acceptable in the name of you god. What finite deed could you possibly consider to be too heinous to commit in the goal of an offering of eternal bliss?

Nice Vessel, very well put. I am storing that response ... best I've seen yet.  


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Vessel wrote:Musicdude

Vessel wrote:
Musicdude wrote:
Vessel wrote:
Musicdude wrote:
I'm trying to bring the world a message of hope.

You are trying to bring the world a message of hopelessness.

What a depressing cause to take up. Even if it's true, what is to be accomplished by destroying people's hope? If there truly is no hope, they will find it out one of these days. At least they can be happy until then.

Becuse these people aren't capable of keeping their hope out of everyone else's business as is made evident by the fact that you are here quoting scripture and hoping to 'save' people. Beliefs don't exist in a vacuum and religious people's beliefs are unnecessary, dogmatic and dangerous and they try and infect the entirity of society with them.

If you believed you had some knowledge that could save someone's life, would you keep quiet about it? If you knew that speaking it would cause you to be ridiculed, would you be quiet then? If it only cost you a little ridicule to save someone's life, would you do it? That is the situation I'm in. If one single person on this board stops and thinks to himself "maybe this Christian stuff is worth checking into, and just because these people think it's wrong doesn't necessarily mean it is" then it was worth the effort to me.

My motivation for spreading my beliefs is not only to save lives, but to save people's eternal futures. I think that is a just cause. All the evil things you accuse religion of, you cannot rightly accuse me of. I speak for the bible, not religion.

If the bible really is God's word, I may save a few souls with me. If it's wrong, then I have given a few people false hope, and motivation for loving and respecting others. What does that hurt? Nothing.

So though your hatred for religion may be well-founded, your hatred of Christianity is nothing but ignorance.

I agree that, given your belief in an all mighty god, you are doing what you should do. Thanks for this as it is a perfect illustration of the reason I oppose theistic belief systems.

Now, in order to be perfectly honest you must admit that if someone managed to convince you that this god, who in your bs (abb. for belief system) holds the eternal fate of all in his 'supernatural' hands, wanted you to torture and kill people in an attempt to save as many souls as possible it would not be wrong. I mean, in the big picture, what would it hurt?

Your belief system dictates that you follow the commands of this entity no matter what the might be. Your illustration, that you truly think you are saving people's eternal souls, makes it obvious that no matter what is asked of you there is nothing that is not acceptable in the name of your god. What finite deed could you possibly consider to be too heinous to commit in the goal of an offering of eternal bliss?

Nice try. You show me one "heinous" deed I've ever done in the name of God, and I'll eat my words. You have me confused with a Muslim.

My bible does not command me to kill anyone, nor infringe on their rights, nor harm them in any way.

Before you start citing the old testament, I would remind that was a different time, a different people, and a different dispensation.

If you pose the question, if God asked me to kill someone, would I obey? The answer is I don't know. I think I probably would. But is He going to ask me to do that? No. You can't assume every word in the bible is directly applicable to you. It must be taken in the original languages and in context, and in dispensations. The equivalent would be for me to have a slave, and be taken to court over it. Then for me to cite early American slavery laws to justify my actions. I would say "but weren't these laws written by the American government?" To which the judge would say "but that was a long time ago, and those laws have since been done away with."

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: There are

Musicdude wrote:

There are other forms of human perception besides rationality, ya know.

Faith isn't one of them.

 

Musicdude wrote:
or those of you honestly looking for the truth, I hope you find it, whatever it may be. 

Whatever it is, it isn't god.

Musicdude wrote:
The equivalent would be for me to have a slave, and be taken to court over it. Then for me to cite early American slavery laws to justify my actions. I would say "but weren't these laws written by the American government?" To which the judge would say "but that was a long time ago, and those laws have since been done away with."

Likewise, god and religion was invented a long time ago, and it should have long since been done away with.  Otherwise, slavery should still be in full force (and that's from the new testament, not the old). 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: Nice try.

Musicdude wrote:

Nice try. You show me one "heinous" deed I've ever done in the name of God, and I'll eat my words. You have me confused with a Muslim.

Whether you have or haven't is irrelevant. And no, I don't have you confused with a Muslim. I see no difference in the potential of the two belief systems (Christianity and Islam) to cause harm as they are both theistic. That is they both have the same major flaw, the ability to justify removing responsibility for human acts to a higher authority than humanity.

Quote:
My bible does not command me to kill anyone, nor infringe on their rights, nor harm them in any way.

At least not until someone interprets it to. 

Quote:
Before you start citing the old testament, I would remind that was a different time, a different people, and a different dispensation.

There is no more reason for me to cite the Bible than there is for me to cite The Sound and The Fury.  

Quote:
If you pose the question, if God asked me to kill someone, would I obey? The answer is I don't know. I think I probably would.

Ding, ding, ding!! Give that man an honesty medal.  

 

Quote:
But is He going to ask me to do that? No.

Is he freewilled? Are you omniscient? Did Sylvia Brown tell you so? If such an entity were to exist you would have no basis on which to make this statement. If your god is freewilled then he can ask you to do anything. Even if he isn't, unless you are privvy to his programming you have no ability to say with any confidence whatsoever what he will and will not ask you to do.

 

Quote:
You can't assume every word in the bible is directly applicable to you. It must be taken in the original languages and in context, and in dispensations.

Or taken as the obvious fiction that it is. 

Quote:
 The equivalent would be for me to have a slave, and be taken to court over it. Then for me to cite early American slavery laws to justify my actions. I would say "but weren't these laws written by the American government?" To which the judge would say "but that was a long time ago, and those laws have since been done away with."

This is irrelevant to the fact that within a theistic belief system any act can be justified and responsibility placed in a higher authority to which obedience is not only mandatory but unquestionably so. I have not envoked, nor do I have any intention of envoking your scripture to support my position. This sidetrack into your holy book does not go to the issue at hand.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Vessel wrote:Whether you

Vessel wrote:

Whether you have or haven't is irrelevant. And no, I don't have you confused with a Muslim. I see no difference in the potential of the two belief systems (Christianity and Islam) to cause harm as they are both theistic. That is they both have the same major flaw, the ability to justify removing responsibility for human acts to a higher authority than humanity.

That higher authority commands me to behave much more morally than I would if I were acting on my own ethics and not His.

Quote:
At least not until someone interprets it to.

If they did, they would be a heretic. Scripture must support scripture.    

   

Quote:
Is he freewilled? Are you omniscient? Did Sylvia Brown tell you so? If such an entity were to exist you would have no basis on which to make this statement. If your god is freewilled then he can ask you to do anything. Even if he isn't, unless you are privvy to his programming you have no ability to say with any confidence whatsoever what he will and will not ask you to do.

Because He speaks to me through His written word, and that is the only way He speaks to me (or anyone else for that matter). And His written word does not command me to kill anyone, and it isn't about to change.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


ObnoxiousBitch
Superfan
ObnoxiousBitch's picture
Posts: 115
Joined: 2006-02-22
User is offlineOffline
Ruminating on Pascal's

Ruminating on Pascal's wager... even if one were to make the proper "choice" to be a Christian, it begs the question, "What KIND of Christian?" What if the true "right" answer is to be a Jehovah's Witness, and I've spent my life in Christ as a Lutheran? Again, screwed. When every sect claims theirs to be the One True Path, no matter what, it's a crap shoot with far more probability of losing than winning.

I'll stick with what I know to be true, and real.

Invisible friends are for children and psychopaths.


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
ObnoxiousBroad

ObnoxiousBroad wrote:

Ruminating on Pascal's wager... even if one were to make the proper "choice" to be a Christian, it begs the question, "What KIND of Christian?" What if the true "right" answer is to be a Jehovah's Witness, and I've spent my life in Christ as a Lutheran? Again, screwed. When every sect claims theirs to be the One True Path, no matter what, it's a crap shoot with far more probability of losing than winning.

I'll stick with what I know to be true, and real.

 

Or they could decide for themselves what the bible teaches, and not take some religion's word for it. That's hard work though. It requires intensive studying. Most people (even Christians) don't care enough for that. They'd rather have their doctrine served on a silver platter, even if they are false.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: That

Musicdude wrote:
That higher authority commands me to behave much more morally than I would if I were acting on my own ethics and not His.

Then perhaps you should have better ethics, no? My ethics seem fine without without being commanded by anything to act any way other than the way a human being acts within a society if he wishes for that society to be a safe and enjoyable one. 

Quote:
If they did, they would be a heretic. Scripture must support scripture.

Unless they convinced you otherwise and then you would believe that they were interpreting scripture correctly and those who said torturing people to turn them to god, or ushering in your savior with a few little atomic booms, or beating heretics (those who intepreted the scripture as peaceful) or heathens to death is what your god desires according to the correct interpretation of scripture. 

When one holds a belief in an ultimate and unquestionable authority that is the only acceptable  justification for all acts this is always a possibility no matter how much they may protest that it is not. There is no reason for one to assume that at any given moment the will of any given god will not be revealed to actually explicitly command the destruction any given thing. At that point the true believer will have no good reason to not follow the command and, in all honesty, within the confines of his belief system, would be being completely unreasonable if he did not.

   

Quote:

Because He speaks to me through His written word, and that is the only way He speaks to me (or anyone else for that matter). And His written word does not command me to kill anyone, and it isn't about to change.

Your god doesn't have the ability or the freewill to change its written word if it desires?

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


Andyy
Andyy's picture
Posts: 182
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

Because you are not a bunch of rational free-thinkers. You are believing what you are told to believe.

 

Well.... lets look at a few things here.... is it possible that a person could logically come to your view without having others "tell you what to believe?" I would say its a hair shy of absolutely impossible. There is no way anyone could independently come up with your doctrines. Doctrines evolve believe it or not. Your theology is not first century AD Christianity. Your views have a modern evangelical sound to them... but before that, the roots of modern evangelicalism were based on revolutionary (at the time) new thoughts of Luther, Calvin, etc... before that, there were many doctrines that popes and councils came up with that eventually got mainstreamed into christianity. (trinity, books that made it into the bible are still held by evangelicals) Christianity will continue to evolve.

Now look at your accusation that we just believe what we are told... I can't speak for anyone else... But I have no atheist family members. (or at least people who will actually admit it) I had no close friends growing up who were atheists. I have never read a book trying to 'convert me' to atheism. No one ever threatened me with eternal hellfire if I didn't believe as an atheist. Being an atheist goes against everything I was "told to believe" in my life. I had never read books from any of the main public porponents of atheism like Dawkins, Harris etc... until after my deconversion.

Where do you get this idea that I'm just believing what I'm told?

Probably not a good way to leave the Rational Responders website... by firing off one last flury of irrational accusations. Laughing

And I almost forgot... you think what you're doing, even if wrong, can have no harm? Please don't convert the person who's going to grow up to cure cancer... only to instead to change his or her occupation choice to a be missionary.


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
I can't keep reading this

I can't keep reading this and not responding. Too hard-headed, I guess. So I'm going to quit reading it.

 

None of you are saying anything that has not already been said and refuted by me or someone else. Get a new argument, and then I'll get a new answer.

The futility of arguing about the nature of God with someone who doesn't believe there is a God is slapping me in the face, and I keep turning the other cheek (pun intended.) I've run out of cheeks, and patience.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


BGH
BGH's picture
Posts: 2772
Joined: 2006-09-28
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote:   None of

Musicdude wrote:
 

None of you are saying anything that has not already been said and refuted by me or someone else. Get a new argument, and then I'll get a new answer.

Best way to save face when you've lost an argument.

Project your inadequacies, then run away, fingers in your ears screaming, "I WON, I WON".

All the while not realizing you have actually lost..... 


Andyy
Andyy's picture
Posts: 182
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: I can't

Musicdude wrote:

I can't keep reading this and not responding. Too hard-headed, I guess. So I'm going to quit reading it.

Hard-Headed = Not agreeing with you?

Maybe won't even see this, but my parting words for you are "Musicdude!  In all you do in life, in all you learn, in all advice you receive... seek EVIDENCE."  If those telling you something are not able to give you evidence, or if they are offended that evidence is being demanded, then seek more evidence.  Our 5 senses are the ONLY tools our mind has that have proven historically to have any reliablilty in detemining truth... but since sometime we see things that aren't there, or think we are hearing thing, they aren't 100% reliable.  So test reality.  Always keep testing.  Challenge your presuppositions.  If you find yourself somewhere (a church perhaps) where everyone agrees on something, still challenge it.  Look for evidence.  Ask questions, and don't decide what the answer is before you find it.

It may seem like "we all think the same way" on this website."  But I can assure you, that if we discussed an issue besides the logic of theism, you would see a wide variety of opinions and different views.

 Good luck.


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
BGH wrote:Musicdude

BGH wrote:
Musicdude wrote:
 

None of you are saying anything that has not already been said and refuted by me or someone else. Get a new argument, and then I'll get a new answer.

Best way to save face when you've lost an argument.

Project your inadequacies, then run away, fingers in your ears screaming, "I WON, I WON".

All the while not realizing you have actually lost..... 

Whatever you say. I never said I won, nor did I think it to myself. The way I see it this argument can't be won or lost or ever end, except for two ways. A: Science advances to the point that it can actually PROVE that God doesn't exist.

B: You'll find out that there is a God, when you're kneeling before Him prior to your judgement.

Neither of those scenarios will happen during this argument. So we are spinning are wheels, rehashing arguments that have been made countless times before to no avail.

 I never said I could prove God. I don't believe it is possible to prove God, at least not possible for men. He has proven Himself to me, but not before I accepted Him first by faith alone. I had to take that first step, and then He proved to me that I made the right choice. I don't expect you to believe that, and I'm not asking you to. But there are many more reasons why I believe in God other than just what the bible says. I have lived the life He offers for about 21 years now. In that 21 years, I have seen Him accomplish the supernatural specifically for me on countless occaisions. Each time, proving that this is real. But proving it only to me, and no one else. But again, I don't have to give an account for you. I only have to give an account for myself, and I'm convinced that I will be blameless in the last day, because Christ gladly took my blame.

I know there are some who have had some bad experiences with religion. I have had a lifetime of good experiences with Christianity. It would be very difficult for me to ignore all of that in favor of being "rational" (as you call it.) And why would I want to? So I can switch my faith in God to faith in mankind? From what I've seen of mankind, that would be misplaced faith. Humanity will let you down. God will not.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


JWMaher
JWMaher's picture
Posts: 29
Joined: 2007-05-21
User is offlineOffline
Fine, here's a shiny new

Fine, here's a shiny new situation for you to explain your position in the face of...

Let's say...

a) I am a regular world citizen who is within earshot of people preaching the good word to me, but then I'm involved in some accident that isolates me from society and affects my memory so that I have no recollection of ever being preached to.  Does my isolation from the word condemn me to Hell if I actively haven't made a choice to reject it?  After all, I wouldn't know about it as a viable option.

b) A similar situation.  What if I were a member of some remote tribe of people who will never be reached by Christian missionaries in my lifetime.  Am I condemned to Hell?  How could I come to Christian conclusions and save myself without a Bible or a teacher? 

I know your rhetoric about all of mankind being born into the same deal with God.  Now, explain to me how the deal retains its just nature if you'll never even know about the deal.  Isn't that taxation without representation?

David Cross: So I was watching this one show where - there's a guy on stage and he pretends he has contact with the dead and people are watching.
Audience Member: Crossing Over.
David Cross: No, not Crossing Over. It was uh, church.


ShaunPhilly
High Level ModeratorSilver Member
ShaunPhilly's picture
Posts: 473
Joined: 2006-03-15
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude, I'm sorry to see

Musicdude, I'm sorry to see you go in this fashion.

 You didn't even respond to my latest reply to you, which I thought posed some fair questions to you.

I hope that you'll see what is making you so frustrated and afraid about this, and come back and see us again.  I hope you won't deem it arrogant that I hope taht by then you'll have seen the light and can understand where we were coming from.

All the best,

Shaun

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


ShaunPhilly
High Level ModeratorSilver Member
ShaunPhilly's picture
Posts: 473
Joined: 2006-03-15
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

I know there are some who have had some bad experiences with religion. I have had a lifetime of good experiences with Christianity. It would be very difficult for me to ignore all of that in favor of being "rational" (as you call it.) And why would I want to? So I can switch my faith in God to faith in mankind? From what I've seen of mankind, that would be misplaced faith. Humanity will let you down. God will not.

Irrelevant.

Nobody is asking you to switch faiths (not that I remember seeing, anyway), but rather to ditch faith altogether.

Why believe things you don't have evidence for?

The argument isn't necessarily about whether god can be proven of disproven, but whether the evidence we see in the universe, through the lens of our limited epistemological perspective, is sufficient to rationally accept the proposition that a god exists. That is, is belief in god rational?

I say no. Further, I don't hold such a belief in any god, whether rationally or irrationally. 

Shaun

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
JWMaher wrote: Fine,

JWMaher wrote:

Fine, here's a shiny new situation for you to explain your position in the face of...

Let's say...

a) I am a regular world citizen who is within earshot of people preaching the good word to me, but then I'm involved in some accident that isolates me from society and affects my memory so that I have no recollection of ever being preached to.  Does my isolation from the word condemn me to Hell if I actively haven't made a choice to reject it?  After all, I wouldn't know about it as a viable option.

b) A similar situation.  What if I were a member of some remote tribe of people who will never be reached by Christian missionaries in my lifetime.  Am I condemned to Hell?  How could I come to Christian conclusions and save myself without a Bible or a teacher? 

I know your rhetoric about all of mankind being born into the same deal with God.  Now, explain to me how the deal retains its just nature if you'll never even know about the deal.  Isn't that taxation without representation?

 

I don't have an answer to that. But let me ask you again. What difference does that make to you? You have heard the gospel and rejected it of your own free will. You're eternal future should be your main concern, not that of some guy with amnesia or an elder of the bura bura tribe in zimbabwe.

If I answered yes, and you said, "well that means God isn't fair." And let's say that we have established the fact that according how we define fairness, God's condmnation of those people is not fair. Are you gonna go to Hell to make a point to God about his lack of fairness? How is your suffering for eternity gonna help the situation?

 So this argument is invalid, and completely irrelevant. If the coach lays down the rules of the game, you must play by those rules, whether you think they are fair or not. You can play by the rules, or you can ignore them and get suspended. That is the only choice you have. You can't re-write the rules, saying "if I were God, I wouldn't do it that way." You're not God, so it makes no difference what you would or wouldn't do. He didn't ask you what you thought about it when He designed the universe. He gave you a choice. Choose to live or choose death. He didn't have to give you that choice. He did so because He is far beyond fair. If you choose death, don't blame Him.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
ShaunPhilly

ShaunPhilly wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

I know there are some who have had some bad experiences with religion. I have had a lifetime of good experiences with Christianity. It would be very difficult for me to ignore all of that in favor of being "rational" (as you call it.) And why would I want to? So I can switch my faith in God to faith in mankind? From what I've seen of mankind, that would be misplaced faith. Humanity will let you down. God will not.

Irrelevant.

Nobody is asking you to switch faiths (not that I remember seeing, anyway), but rather to ditch faith altogether.

Why believe things you don't have evidence for.

The argument isn't necessarily about whether god can be proven of disproven, but whether the evidence we see in the universe, through the lens of our limited epistemological perspective, is sufficient to rationally accept the proposition that a god exists.  Taht is, is belief in god rational?

I say no.  Further, I don't hold such a belief.  

Shaun 

 

To say that there is no evidence of God is a statement of ignorance. I didn't agree with every word that came out of Kirk and Ray's mouthes at the debate, but one thing I will give them credit for is they provided plenty of evidence of God's existence. There is source after source of theistic apologetics online, available if you only look for them. More evidence than you can imagine. Proof? No. Evidence? Plenty.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
That garbage the apologists

That garbage the apologists put out hardly qualifies as "evidence."


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
ShaunPhilly

ShaunPhilly wrote:

Musicdude, I'm sorry to see you go in this fashion.

 You didn't even respond to my latest reply to you, which I thought posed some fair questions to you.

I hope that you'll see what is making you so frustrated and afraid about this, and come back and see us again.  I hope you won't deem it arrogant that I hope taht by then you'll have seen the light and can understand where we were coming from.

All the best,

Shaun

 

Thank you for being respectful and polite.

I am mainly frustrated because it's a little exhausting arguing with about 8 people at once.

 

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


ShaunPhilly
High Level ModeratorSilver Member
ShaunPhilly's picture
Posts: 473
Joined: 2006-03-15
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: To say

Musicdude wrote:

To say that there is no evidence of God is a statement of ignorance. I didn't agree with every word that came out of Kirk and Ray's mouthes at the debate, but one thing I will give them credit for is they provided plenty of evidence of God's existence. There is source after source of theistic apologetics online, available if you only look for them. More evidence than you can imagine. Proof? No. Evidence? Plenty.

There is plenty presented as 'evidence,' but what many here, including myself, have been trying to explain is that these presentations don't support any god--or anything supernatural--at all.   

I'm afrain we've returned back to the beginning of the conversation, and thus the eternal return is, yet again, demonstrated.  

The question is whether I, like Camus, will find happiness in pushing this boulder up this hill again, and again, and again...

If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.  It is in my nature, I suppose. 

Shaun 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


Musicdude
Theist
Musicdude's picture
Posts: 239
Joined: 2007-05-18
User is offlineOffline
MattShizzle wrote: That

MattShizzle wrote:
That garbage the apologists put out hardly qualifies as "evidence."

 

Oh, well that settles it then. Well said.

Again, look online. There are countless websites which offer tons of evidence.

The creation implying a creator was fairly compelling evidence I thought. It was feebly argued by your people, but I think the point held true.

 

The whole chair example was a little lacking, since as your guys said, you can go to the chair factory and see the build record. But let's take Stonehenge as alternative example. There is no stonehenge factory. There are no records of who built it and when. There are no other stonehenges to compare it to. But most of humanity assumes that it was built by someone. Why? Because of organization that is far too unlikely to be coincidence.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


BGH
BGH's picture
Posts: 2772
Joined: 2006-09-28
User is offlineOffline
Musicdude wrote: A: Science

Musicdude wrote:
A: Science advances to the point that it can actually PROVE that God doesn't exist.

The burden of proof lies with the positive claim, you make the POSITIVE claim god exists, you are required to back up the statement in an argument. 

Musicdude wrote:
B: You'll find out that there is a God, when you're kneeling before Him prior to your judgement.

Vague variation of Pascal's wager.

You may be kneeling before a diety you didn't worship and you'll find out you were wrong.

Musicdude wrote:
I never said I could prove God. I don't believe it is possible to prove God, at least not possible for men.

So you will not continue on with anecdotal evidence to support your claim, will you?

Musicdude wrote:
He has proven Himself to me, but not before I accepted Him first by faith alone. I had to take that first step, and then He proved to me that I made the right choice. I don't expect you to believe that, and I'm not asking you to.

Awww, CRAP!! You ARE trying to prove it with anecdotal evidence.

Do you not understand MANY of us here were once believers or tried to have belief? Your anecdote of a god who reveals himself to those who open themselves to him does not work.

Musicdude wrote:
But there are many more reasons why I believe in God other than just what the bible says. I have lived the life He offers for about 21 years now. In that 21 years, I have seen Him accomplish the supernatural specifically for me on countless occaisions. Each time, proving that this is real. But proving it only to me, and no one else.

More anecdotal evidence you felt the need to throw in though you said it was not needed, nor able to prove god.

Musicdude wrote:
But again, I don't have to give an account for you. I only have to give an account for myself, and I'm convinced that I will be blameless in the last day, because Christ gladly took my blame.

Is this the core of your belief? Being able to shrug off your shortcomings in life to supernatural scapegoat is where your faith is founded?

Musicdude wrote:
I know there are some who have had some bad experiences with religion.

I had good experiences with religion and bad experiences, mostly indifferent experiences though. I just realized I was deluding myself with the hope that a magic sky daddy was watching over me.

Musicdude wrote:
So I can switch my faith in God to faith in mankind? From what I've seen of mankind, that would be misplaced faith. Humanity will let you down. God will not.

This is very sad, you have no faith in your fellow humans?

Do you know why your god will never let you down? You feel this way because you can adjust your concept of this diety to fit whatever 'feels' good to you and meshes best with your worldview and morals. 

Good luck.... 


marcusfish
Superfan
marcusfish's picture
Posts: 676
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
ShaunPhilly

ShaunPhilly wrote:
Musicdude wrote:

To say that there is no evidence of God is a statement of ignorance... Evidence? Plenty.

There is plenty presented as 'evidence,' but what many here, including myself, have been trying to explain is that these presentations don't support any god--or anything supernatural--at all.

The 'evidence' presented by Ray and Kirk was purely in the form of absense of information. All the lack of information proves is that there is a lack of information. To make the leap that this MUST be proof of "god" is anything but logical. This is merely a plea to ignorance.