You are right

Anbesol
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You are right

If you want help, assess what I am trying to tell you with honesty - if you truly have a caring bone in your body for your own cause, you will greatly benefit from reading this.  I only wish to help you - I do not think I am better then any of you, but I do believe that I see more clearly in the regards to religion.  Some may call it awful pretentious that I come in here and spout my own perceptions, but I came here not to spout, but out of compassion towards a common cause that we both have, the dissolution of Evangelical america.  I came here because I see a group of dedicated people that are intelligent and determined, and I want to offer my own personal advice.  Yes, I am under the full understanding that what I am about to say came from me, and is no ones opinion but my own - but look honestly into what I am going to tell you, without getting offended or without just immediately dismissing my conjectures. 

Is this about the longest thread ever posted?  lol.  I spent like 30 minutes on this thing.  Please, take the 5 minutes it takes to read.  Also  - some tool claimed I was "copping out" of a debate, so here we go.  Please, lets not make this a competing debate, lets make this an honest discussion....

"God" doesn’t exist.  I absolutely agree with you on that, for all the concepts you have of god, are certainly absurd ones.  To find a modern American Christian with a good sound concept of "god" is looking for the needle in the haystack.  So indeed, all thoughts and presentations of "god" you have been exposed to, DO have their paradoxes and their loopholes and their supernatural expressions, for one example Jesus Christ being a uniquely divine son of god is supernatural to God's capability, this is an absurd and paradoxical expression of god.  But to look deeper into it, seeing Jesus Christ as a mortal man and a son of god, you can see that he has never been better then any of us, he has only seen more clearly then most of us have.  He realizes he is the son of god, only in the same way we all are, this is why he says "When you can see me as the son of man and the son of god, then you will enter into the Kingdom", not to be achieved in an after life, but to be seen during life.  He never proclaimed himself to be better then anybody else, he only expressed what came out of pure conscious clarity, and in the contexts of his teachings, you can see that pure conscious clarity.  Though much of what was pure conscious clarity at that time, had to have been expressed in parables, as per the limitations of human language, he created riddles to dive deeper into consciousness, further then words can get you.   This is the same of all the great leaders, who taught of "god" or consciousness, realizing the conscious host that exists amongst us, but not independent of us.

To see god, to believe in god does not take a leap of blind faith, but an honest inquiry into ones own sense of self, sense of being, and ones own personal conceptualizations towards achieving this understanding.  But, you do not need to call it "god", you can call it whatever the fuck you want.  You can call it your flying spaghetti monster, words cannot contain the truth, they can only express the truth.  To see god is to see the pure conscious clarity that exists within you, when you come to this realization, you will believe, because you will see, and all things that have been hidden from you will now become manifest, and all things that have been misunderstood will now be understood.  but only, with pure conscious clarity.  There is a deep truth into the Garden of Eden parable; the fruit of knowledge is what casts us from the Garden.  However, this forbidden fruit is nothing more then a hallucinogenic of mind - it is your own mental thought coverings that shelter you from reality and experiencing the truth depths of consciousness.  To dissolute ones self form ones mind, one must first dissolute ones self FROM ones self.

If I were to draw a small curved line on a piece of paper, have I drawn a concave one or a convex line?  Indeed, to say that something exists as fact, is to take position of it being EITHER concave line, or the convex, when in reality, they are only concepts and exist dependent of each other, what I drew is not factually one thing or another in reality, its factually one thing or another only within the confines of the relative concept used to express it.  Conscious expression can not contain truth, in any shape or form, unless it dismisses itself as well, for example, a factual statement can be "I am typing on the computer, and I am not typing on the computer."  Now, if this were a "reality" assessment, first of all, I would have to find out who this I is, what the concept of "am" is, the concept of "typing", and how one can do it on a computer and so on.  To be rational, is to explore each and every little word and see to it the depths of its meanings, not to see a single phrase and to dismiss all its authority based on your blind refusal to embrace any other thought outside of your own.  This is not self-authority, this is blind authority to the ego of ones self, which usually is dependent upon an indoctrinating higher truth such as what you guys do with science.

Another thing that Science is short of doing as addressing the deeper side of the universe, it is not a space-time continuum, it is a space-time-consciousness continuum, and they can do their hypothesis to assess this conjecture, all actions must arise from conscious control, or a conscious host, and all that is is manifest of consciousness, is the perpetuant to even their own theories of flux, and their own laws of thermodynamics, and aerodynamics.  Many of you simply cannot see past these laws of science and into the grandness of things.  Thinking that "consciousness" is existent dependent on the brain is an intensely absurd notion, consciousness isn’t the thoughts in ones brain, its what gives rise to the thoughts in ones brain, as it gives a flower the ability to react to music, or to lean towards the sun, these too are examples of a conscious host, reacting consciously to its conditionings.

To become aware of these realities is to see the Garden of Eden, to see the reality of no reality, is to become "one with god", but becoming "one with god" is not any more then becoming one with reality, and all of its conditionings, and all of its environments.  Right now, most Christians are under the toxic effects of the Fruit of Knowledge, because "knowledge" is tangible, knowledge is bondage, knowledge exists in no plane of reality, knowledge exists in the conceptions of reality, nothing more - and to believe that a concept can hold high truth over reality is disgustingly short-sighted, and is exemplary of a person who is deeply afflicted by the toxins of the Fruit of Knowledge.  Once your, as some masters have said "intellect commits suicide" you remove the toxicity of the fruit.  This is not to forget and leave behind the "knowledge" you have thus attained, this is to see the cause and effect to all the knowledge one has attained, and to see deeper beyond the concepts.  This is the transformation of turning knowledge into wisdom.

Knowledge is not power

Knowledge is bondage

Wisdom is freedom,

Wisdom is power, because its power over ones self, through ones self.

This is the practice of the perfection of wisdom, the wisdom of nothingness, or the parallel to Christianity, Christ’s expressions of "the eyes of a child".   

Seeing into this, however, one must transcend their own fear of death, many of you may boldly say that "pshhh, I don’t fear death", but with deeper introspection, you just may find that you do.  How many have even thought of it?  For once in your life, you may truly be completely alone, or you simply cease to be.  How many have tried to wrap their heads around it?  How many of you really looked that deeply into the phenomenology of life and death?  If you look deep into yourself, you will find all that you are, and all that you have been, and all that you can be, when you see through your self to death, you have conquered your self, through conquering death.  Once you have mastered death, all things hidden from your understanding will now become manifest, all that has been foreign to you will then become understood by you.  But if you cannot see into your selves what it is that so drives you to do something like this, which is in honest and good intentions I have seen, then how can you help others when you cannot help your selves? 

Religion is not a cool club that you take a part in, it is not a place where people do what they are told to run a business, its about honesty, integrity, and the pursuit of wisdom, the only true knowing, is in dismissing knowledge, and embracing wisdom.  How can religion do this when they demand their own authority?  It cant, an organized religion that imposes authoritative doctrine over its followers, only dismisses itself as a religion, and instead becomes a cult-like following with figureheads manipulating their people like puppets - their dogma isn’t religious practice, their dogma is political practice, a broad scope of selfish practice.

every time you say "all religions are hocus pocus" or "mythological" or "absurd" or whatever other degrading labels you give it, you do not do anything but to make yourselves look foolish, narrow minded, and short sighted.  I am telling you this not out of condescent, but I am telling you this so you can perhaps see the errors in your ways, and realize that you cannot fight fire with fire, but you must fight it with water.  Do not attack a person for believing in god, if they believe in god, ask them "why?" and seek first to understand them, before you are quick to jump down them with your own self proclaimed "better" understanding.  There are very many sound reasons to believe in "god", by all the definitions expressed world wide, but you know that divisiveness that Dawkins was bitching about?  What do you think you’re doing when you divide the entire world into two groups, people who do and don’t believe in god?  If you ask many Buddhists, you may get the response that they both do, and they don’t, or they will ask you back "I don’t know, do I?", this is not their absurd mysticism, this is them looking into deeper truths then the typical superficial Kingdom of Americana.

Instead, I submit to you that change the word "god" to "hell", and first attack the book of revelations, this is addressing the very source of the problems, and not dabbling its head in the superficial differences.

I do believe in god, and I don’t believe in god.  If an atheist asked me if I believed in god, I would not, but if a theist asked me if I believed in god, I would, because that is the essential importance to find common ground, not to be dabbled in the superficialities of the concept, but to embrace all for their own beliefs and concepts.

So long as you maintain this kind of behavior, and by that I mean your militant refusal of all concepts of "god" - you are not a part of the solution, you are part of the problem; you have gained a decent following, if it can so be called, but you are leading them on a path of self destruction with "Does God Exist" being your staple argument.  If you change this whole movement to focusing on simply the book of revelations and its own incongruence with the message of Christ, you will be successful beyond your imagination.

To me, practicing religion, is practicing mind, a Buddhist monk was once asked "If you could define Buddhism into two words, what would they be?" and the monk responded with "Practice mindfulness".  Where, truly, is the absurdity in this?  To become mindful and practice ones own mind is "supernatural" and pixie dust in the sky?

I tell you this because many of you had been up to know falsely lead by an idiot.  Richard Dawkins may see and know a lot of the universe, but he doesn’t have the balls to see past himself, and he is a being of darkness that casts more darkness.  I commend him for giving the community atheists a feeling of empowerment, but his reverse condemnation is his own undoing, and he is what I would call a hypocrite.  Does this mean I disagree with everything he says?  No, of course not, I agree with a lot of, if not most of what he says, but some of his most empowering words to you guys are words of reverse condemnation, hes leading a cult-like following by creating his divisive reality and implanting it into our culture.  He says “Religion is divisive”, but he categorizes all of the world into those who do believe in god and those who don’t, so who the flying fuck is he to talk about divisiveness, a great teacher once said that “A person must take the timber out of their own eye before they can see clearly enough to remove the sliver in others”, Dawkins has a very deep intellect but it still cannot see past his own ego – and thus his ego grows and is spread in the contexts of his divisive books.  He is not the authority over you, he does not know better then anybody else, take authority over your self, and look into everything with self-honesty, and serious inquiry, and stop taking sides and picking superficial battles that only increase the problem in America.  With the way things are headed a civil war is likely to be the result, quite literally, these superficial differences seem calm and relaxed now, but give it 20 years of continued hatred, and conditions will have made themselves significantly worse.  Right now youre just shouting across the room "No!  You guys are wrong!  Were the right ones!" and they say "Fuck you assholes, weve got christ bitches, he'll dominate your ass, gods on our side", and then you say "fuck you truth is on our side bitches!  We'll fucking kill you!".  do you see the absurdity in this?

I have said really all that can be said to you guys, if you continue to refuse to see your own undoings, then I cannot help you save your selves.  You so boldly go by the name "free thinker", so use your free thinking.

and congratulations to anybody whom actually read any and especially all of that. 


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Someone has anger

Someone has anger issues..... Surprised


Brian37
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Rigor mortis thing still

Rigor mortis thing still getting to you isnt it?

You didnt have to say anything. 

Chess moves. Your error was never considering that the people hear had herd these arguments before. Now you deny it. Of course you have to deny it. That is the only way you can hold on to fiction, to deny that hocus pocus is fiction.

You dont think I've heard the "witness" argument before? You were going to quote the bible about all the witnessing to the hocus pocus miricle jiberish, then quote the verse about the empty tomb. "Pay no attention to the mythology behind the curtian."

You are lying and you know it.

And since I took that "pay no attention" tactic away from you, all you have done is complain and whine and yet you still come back for more.

You are in denial, otherwise this wouldnt bother you so much.

You did take the first step, or so you say.  If you truely now dont buy the hocus pocus of the bible, THAT IS A HUGE STEP! You have taken the first step toward reason.

Now, connect the dots, that is all you have to do. I know you can do it, you just have to want to do it.

BTW, if anything, I do give you credit for hanging in this long. Most run scared. Now where did I put that kitten, I've fired up the grill and the kitten ran away.......DAMN, lost dinner again|!| 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Anbesol
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Brian37 wrote: Rigor

Brian37 wrote:

Rigor mortis thing still getting to you isnt it?

You didnt have to say anything.

Chess moves. Your error was never considering that the people hear had herd these arguments before. Now you deny it. Of course you have to deny it. That is the only way you can hold on to fiction, to deny that hocus pocus is fiction.

You dont think I've heard the "witness" argument before? You were going to quote the bible about all the witnessing to the hocus pocus miricle jiberish, then quote the verse about the empty tomb. "Pay no attention to the mythology behind the curtian."

You are lying and you know it.

And since I took that "pay no attention" tactic away from you, all you have done is complain and whine and yet you still come back for more.

You are in denial, otherwise this wouldnt bother you so much.

You did take the first step, or so you say. If you truely now dont buy the hocus pocus of the bible, THAT IS A HUGE STEP! You have taken the first step toward reason.

Now, connect the dots, that is all you have to do. I know you can do it, you just have to want to do it.

BTW, if anything, I do give you credit for hanging in this long. Most run scared. Now where did I put that kitten, I've fired up the grill and the kitten ran away.......DAMN, lost dinner again|!|

*sigh*

 

look, I dont know how many times it will take to get this through your wormly small little brain.  I did not say that, show to me where you think I said that.  But alas, you cannot, because I never said it.  I thought it would have been understood the first time I pointed this out to you, but it seems that it took 3 times yet, and still, you have not gotten it.  but perhaps, the third time is the charm, so now if i really did say it, why dont you just go right where i said it, and use your wonderful clipboard, and copy and paste it, and demonstrate that.  The trick is, I never said that, you may have heard that, because youre anidiot and things go through your filtered egoic reality, but I never, IN REALITY, said that.  So please, if you want to keep this bullshit going, at least show some substantiation, which I know you dont have, because I never said that.  give it up yet?  Have you seen how youve just held preconceptions like an idiot? 


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AbandonMyPeace

AbandonMyPeace wrote:
Someone has anger issues..... Surprised

It's like a train wreck. I keep waiting to see if this guy runs into a cafe with a bomb strapped to himself. I mean, the guy is obviously coming loose at the edges.

Reasonably I should just put him on my ignore list, but it's morbid curiosity lol.  


Anbesol
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*sigh*   I am simply a

*sigh*

 

I am simply a reflection of your self.   I have not implanted any new anger here, I have simply reversed the anger that comes from here.  You said it your self, you'd like to give all those damn dirty theists a good kick in the face. 

    If you had a brain, you'd quickly realize that you are doing the exact same things that you condemn the christians for doing.  You guys may have brains, but, you are choosing not to use them.

 

HEY EVERYBODY!  SCREW ALL SPIRITUAL PEOPLE!  WE HAVE SCIIIIENCE!!  ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SCIENCE!  WOOOHOOO!

kind of like

 

HEY EVERYBODY!  THEY HAVE SCIENCE, BUT WE HAVE A RESURECTED SAVIOR!  ALL HAAAAIL JESUS CHRIIIIST!

 

You guys are two sides of the same coin. 

 


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Its just funny to me that

Its just funny to me that he claims he can out debate anyone here. Then starts his debate and anyone that offers a counter response that he didnt expect is either an idiot a cocksucker or an asshole.

You see I know my place here on the forums. I realize I havent taken the time to educate myself well enough to hold my own in a debate. So I let the people that have educated themselves do the talking. Makes sense right? He is welcome to come have a seat with me and watch the more educated people debate. Wink


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Anbesol wrote: *sigh*   I

Anbesol wrote:

*sigh*

 

I am simply a reflection of your self. I have not implanted any new anger here, I have simply reversed the anger that comes from here. You said it your self, you'd like to give all those damn dirty theists a good kick in the face.

If you had a brain, you'd quickly realize that you are doing the exact same things that you condemn the christians for doing. You guys may have brains, but, you are choosing not to use them.

 

HEY EVERYBODY! SCREW ALL SPIRITUAL PEOPLE! WE HAVE SCIIIIENCE!! ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SCIENCE! WOOOHOOO!

kind of like

 

HEY EVERYBODY! THEY HAVE SCIENCE, BUT WE HAVE A RESURECTED SAVIOR! ALL HAAAAIL JESUS CHRIIIIST!

 

You guys are two sides of the same coin.

 

All things you've said before ad nausium.

So what is your plan here dude? Are you hoping that if you call us ignorant idiots enough that we will finally all decide you are right and follow you into glorious victory against the evangelists? 


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AbandonMyPeace wrote: Its

AbandonMyPeace wrote:

Its just funny to me that he claims he can out debate anyone here. Then starts his debate and anyone that offers a counter response that he didnt expect is either an idiot a cocksucker or an asshole.

You see I know my place here on the forums. I realize I havent taken the time to educate myself well enough to hold my own in a debate. So I let the people that have educated themselves do the talking. Makes sense right? He is welcome to come have a seat with me and watch the more educated people debate. Wink

please, show me where these "educated people" are speaking?  I already outted all of them.  they just use their hocus pocus nonsense to delude themselves into believing otherwise.

 

marcus -

 

HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY IT

 

YOUR

 

 

 

 

STAPLE

 

 

 

 

 

ARGUMENT

 

 

 

 

IS

 

 

 

 

DOES

 

 

GOD

 

 

EXIST.

 

 

have you comprehended this?  You do know, that the whole debate is

 

 

 

DOES GOD EXIST.

 

 

 

now, have we established step one.  okay, we realize that step one is recognizing that the staple argument is

 

"DOES GOD EXIST?"

 

 

 

now, step 2 is realizing that youre a tool and an idiot for begging the question.  the question is absurd just like any stupid answer that came from it.  Learn from your own high priest socrates and realize that youre an idiot.

 

CHANGE the staple argument to a more reasonable conjecture, such as

 

"DOES HELL EXIST".

 

now, right now, you guys are idiots because the whole question "Does god exist" is not only your staple argument, but the foundation of all your beliefs revolve around this "god" not existing, but its stupidly dependent upon a dumb question, and limited to the conceptual understandings of it, and when most religion does not even impose a limited concept of god, its hard to adamently oppose what is inadequetly defined.

 

so ask better questions, and quit being idiots who segregate everybody by dividing them into believers and non believers.

 

you are just like the christians when you do this

 

and I still submit to you that you are idiots, not because you have no brain power, not because you have no intellectual capacity or explenation, but because you are a slave to society and you cannot even see it in your self. 


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So your upset because people

So your upset because people chose to question the existance of god? If we had the answer it wouldnt be a question anymore would it?


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to believe you can have an

to believe you can have an answer is the problem.  You guys demand there is no god, they demand there is, i think you are both right, and I am troubled to see two comunities who work for the same tree so willingly combat each other.

 

Quote:
"Any belief wearing a tag of theism is what I'm after."

 

THIS, RIGHT HERE is a perfect example of a root.  You have made yourself an answer, so now everybody who doesnt share your high and mighty answer you are "going after".  

 

This is just an issue of casting pearls before swine i guess.  You guys have not heard me, seen me, or talked to me for who I really am, you have only done so as how you wanted me to be.  You guys are deaf, blind and dumb.  I'll steal a quote from lux right now and say, the proof is in the pudding.  You guys have good hearts, we all have good hearts, but some of you are so determined to deprive everybody else of their heart that you cant even see it in your self.  You guys are part of a terribly destructive movement and its not because you dont believe in god, but because you convict yourself by your beliefs with a militant, violent attitude, and you condemn all those outside of your little box of elite atheists. 


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I dont have an answer to

I dont have an answer to the question. I didnt demand anything. Thats not even me you quoted. How is is that you see me as a violent person? Im quite the opposite.

 

Just because someone dont have an answer to a question doenst mean the question cant be asked.  


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Anbesol wrote: "DOES HELL

Anbesol wrote:

"DOES HELL EXIST".

*shrug* so start a topic on "Does Hell Exist" if that's the entirity of your desires, ya' big baby. 

You tellin' me that you went through all of this trouble just to suggest another topic of discussion? You do realize this is a forum right? I mean, you've already started three different topics on the exact same premise. If you're in such a hurry to address other ideas WHY DON'T YOU START THAT CONVERSATION INSTEAD OF JUST CALLING US ALL STUPID IDIOTS.

 

 


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BobSpence1 wrote: Anbesol

BobSpence1 wrote:

Anbesol responded

I dont believe anything, I have no belief system, I simply see that there is no space between cause and effect. To believe that all things are relative is hardly a "belief system".

and actually, youre wrong, you are stupid. you are incredibly stupid, from all of the things you have said, you have presented a stupid man. You can know someone by the fruits of their labor, and those words are the fruits of your labor, and those words are moronic.

Wow. Still hung up on simplistic "cause/effect", asserting "no belief system" in the teeth of the evidence of your own words, then slipping into intemperate abuse.

Way to impress us, dude Laughing .

Whatever default respect I may have had for this person has completely evaporated. I am sorry I wasted so much thought and typing on my first day back in the forums after some months break.

And all this time I thought Jesus was DA MAN according to Ambesol. But allas, we too have been deluded into fantacy. I guess Jesus is just metapore....or real....oh crap....damn Bob...that crack you e-mailed me was way too strong. 

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AbandonMyPeace wrote: I

AbandonMyPeace wrote:

I dont have an answer to the question. I didnt demand anything. Thats not even me you quoted. How is is that you see me as a violent person? Im quite the opposite.

 

Just because someone dont have an answer to a question doenst mean the question cant be asked.

I wasnt even talking to you einstein, good persecution complex there, we should probably look into that too.

 

Brian, you really are just lacking any coherent cognitive faculties, I dont even see any relavence to what youre saying about jesus.  I said he is a man just like you and i, what does that mean?  What fucking difference does that make?  Why does that "weaken" or change my argument?  hes just a good man, with good teachings, and if you KNEW those teachings, and incorporated them in your life, next time some pretentious christian comes at you and says "Are you a Christian, have YOU been saved?"  you can respond with "You can know me by my fruits, not by my labors.", and their own saviors words will shut them up....

 But alas, I am casting pearls before swine, you have not heard me, youve heard what your leaning minds have wanted to hear.


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Hmm. 3 days. I am

Hmm. 3 days.

I am continually impressed with the amount of patience that we afford to this type of behavior. 

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I was just playing along

I was just playing along with him earlier. Then he responded to me. Then when I responded he told me he wasnt even talking to me. Im pretty sure my patience for this guy is gone.


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and so is he. So, shake it

and so is he. So, shake it off and fill up your patience. lol. There are more.

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lol. Thanks for the

lol. Thanks for the encouraging words. Im fairly new here but I think thats the worst I have seen so far. Wink


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Anbesol wrote:

Anbesol wrote:

Brian, you really are just lacking any coherent cognitive faculties, I dont even see any relavence to what youre saying about jesus. I said he is a man just like you and i, what does that mean? What fucking difference does that make? Why does that "weaken" or change my argument? hes just a good man, with good teachings, and if you KNEW those teachings, and incorporated them in your life, next time some pretentious christian comes at you and says "Are you a Christian, have YOU been saved?" you can respond with "You can know me by my fruits, not by my labors.", and their own saviors words will shut them up....

"He's just a good man"

That's debateable too. But again, and for the billionth time for the ADD aflicted.....I will repeat myself in hopes something penitrates that thick scull of yours.

"Jesus was a good man"

Is the same as

"Muhammad was a good man"

So what? Even if I agreed, that is irrelevent.

You are arbitrarly picking morals from this guy, when other literary and litteral people can find the same moral motifs in both fiction and non-fiction outside the bible.

(Please, dear Loki I pray that Ambesol gets it. PUTTY PWEASE LOKI. I'll make you a promis Loki, If Ambesol gets it, I'll stop eating kittens, THIS TIME LOKI, I MEAN IT.....THIS I PRAY,

Amun Ra)

Just as you passionatly believe that Jesus is the greatest thing since sliced bread, others feel the same way about Muhammad and Buddah.

The ideas such as forgiveness and sacrifice have been around since the first oral language. You merely like the WAY the story was told.

But you think all of the ideas in the bible are good? Do you think distroying other's personal property that doesnt belong to you is moral? Seems to me that Jesus did that when Jews sold their goods where he didnt want them too. It didnt belong to him, so if he is just a man, what right does he have to distroy something that doesnt belong to him?

That doesnt seem moral at all, that seems like he is behaiving like a tyrant when others do something he dissagrees with. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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