You are right

Anbesol
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You are right

If you want help, assess what I am trying to tell you with honesty - if you truly have a caring bone in your body for your own cause, you will greatly benefit from reading this.  I only wish to help you - I do not think I am better then any of you, but I do believe that I see more clearly in the regards to religion.  Some may call it awful pretentious that I come in here and spout my own perceptions, but I came here not to spout, but out of compassion towards a common cause that we both have, the dissolution of Evangelical america.  I came here because I see a group of dedicated people that are intelligent and determined, and I want to offer my own personal advice.  Yes, I am under the full understanding that what I am about to say came from me, and is no ones opinion but my own - but look honestly into what I am going to tell you, without getting offended or without just immediately dismissing my conjectures. 

Is this about the longest thread ever posted?  lol.  I spent like 30 minutes on this thing.  Please, take the 5 minutes it takes to read.  Also  - some tool claimed I was "copping out" of a debate, so here we go.  Please, lets not make this a competing debate, lets make this an honest discussion....

"God" doesn’t exist.  I absolutely agree with you on that, for all the concepts you have of god, are certainly absurd ones.  To find a modern American Christian with a good sound concept of "god" is looking for the needle in the haystack.  So indeed, all thoughts and presentations of "god" you have been exposed to, DO have their paradoxes and their loopholes and their supernatural expressions, for one example Jesus Christ being a uniquely divine son of god is supernatural to God's capability, this is an absurd and paradoxical expression of god.  But to look deeper into it, seeing Jesus Christ as a mortal man and a son of god, you can see that he has never been better then any of us, he has only seen more clearly then most of us have.  He realizes he is the son of god, only in the same way we all are, this is why he says "When you can see me as the son of man and the son of god, then you will enter into the Kingdom", not to be achieved in an after life, but to be seen during life.  He never proclaimed himself to be better then anybody else, he only expressed what came out of pure conscious clarity, and in the contexts of his teachings, you can see that pure conscious clarity.  Though much of what was pure conscious clarity at that time, had to have been expressed in parables, as per the limitations of human language, he created riddles to dive deeper into consciousness, further then words can get you.   This is the same of all the great leaders, who taught of "god" or consciousness, realizing the conscious host that exists amongst us, but not independent of us.

To see god, to believe in god does not take a leap of blind faith, but an honest inquiry into ones own sense of self, sense of being, and ones own personal conceptualizations towards achieving this understanding.  But, you do not need to call it "god", you can call it whatever the fuck you want.  You can call it your flying spaghetti monster, words cannot contain the truth, they can only express the truth.  To see god is to see the pure conscious clarity that exists within you, when you come to this realization, you will believe, because you will see, and all things that have been hidden from you will now become manifest, and all things that have been misunderstood will now be understood.  but only, with pure conscious clarity.  There is a deep truth into the Garden of Eden parable; the fruit of knowledge is what casts us from the Garden.  However, this forbidden fruit is nothing more then a hallucinogenic of mind - it is your own mental thought coverings that shelter you from reality and experiencing the truth depths of consciousness.  To dissolute ones self form ones mind, one must first dissolute ones self FROM ones self.

If I were to draw a small curved line on a piece of paper, have I drawn a concave one or a convex line?  Indeed, to say that something exists as fact, is to take position of it being EITHER concave line, or the convex, when in reality, they are only concepts and exist dependent of each other, what I drew is not factually one thing or another in reality, its factually one thing or another only within the confines of the relative concept used to express it.  Conscious expression can not contain truth, in any shape or form, unless it dismisses itself as well, for example, a factual statement can be "I am typing on the computer, and I am not typing on the computer."  Now, if this were a "reality" assessment, first of all, I would have to find out who this I is, what the concept of "am" is, the concept of "typing", and how one can do it on a computer and so on.  To be rational, is to explore each and every little word and see to it the depths of its meanings, not to see a single phrase and to dismiss all its authority based on your blind refusal to embrace any other thought outside of your own.  This is not self-authority, this is blind authority to the ego of ones self, which usually is dependent upon an indoctrinating higher truth such as what you guys do with science.

Another thing that Science is short of doing as addressing the deeper side of the universe, it is not a space-time continuum, it is a space-time-consciousness continuum, and they can do their hypothesis to assess this conjecture, all actions must arise from conscious control, or a conscious host, and all that is is manifest of consciousness, is the perpetuant to even their own theories of flux, and their own laws of thermodynamics, and aerodynamics.  Many of you simply cannot see past these laws of science and into the grandness of things.  Thinking that "consciousness" is existent dependent on the brain is an intensely absurd notion, consciousness isn’t the thoughts in ones brain, its what gives rise to the thoughts in ones brain, as it gives a flower the ability to react to music, or to lean towards the sun, these too are examples of a conscious host, reacting consciously to its conditionings.

To become aware of these realities is to see the Garden of Eden, to see the reality of no reality, is to become "one with god", but becoming "one with god" is not any more then becoming one with reality, and all of its conditionings, and all of its environments.  Right now, most Christians are under the toxic effects of the Fruit of Knowledge, because "knowledge" is tangible, knowledge is bondage, knowledge exists in no plane of reality, knowledge exists in the conceptions of reality, nothing more - and to believe that a concept can hold high truth over reality is disgustingly short-sighted, and is exemplary of a person who is deeply afflicted by the toxins of the Fruit of Knowledge.  Once your, as some masters have said "intellect commits suicide" you remove the toxicity of the fruit.  This is not to forget and leave behind the "knowledge" you have thus attained, this is to see the cause and effect to all the knowledge one has attained, and to see deeper beyond the concepts.  This is the transformation of turning knowledge into wisdom.

Knowledge is not power

Knowledge is bondage

Wisdom is freedom,

Wisdom is power, because its power over ones self, through ones self.

This is the practice of the perfection of wisdom, the wisdom of nothingness, or the parallel to Christianity, Christ’s expressions of "the eyes of a child".   

Seeing into this, however, one must transcend their own fear of death, many of you may boldly say that "pshhh, I don’t fear death", but with deeper introspection, you just may find that you do.  How many have even thought of it?  For once in your life, you may truly be completely alone, or you simply cease to be.  How many have tried to wrap their heads around it?  How many of you really looked that deeply into the phenomenology of life and death?  If you look deep into yourself, you will find all that you are, and all that you have been, and all that you can be, when you see through your self to death, you have conquered your self, through conquering death.  Once you have mastered death, all things hidden from your understanding will now become manifest, all that has been foreign to you will then become understood by you.  But if you cannot see into your selves what it is that so drives you to do something like this, which is in honest and good intentions I have seen, then how can you help others when you cannot help your selves? 

Religion is not a cool club that you take a part in, it is not a place where people do what they are told to run a business, its about honesty, integrity, and the pursuit of wisdom, the only true knowing, is in dismissing knowledge, and embracing wisdom.  How can religion do this when they demand their own authority?  It cant, an organized religion that imposes authoritative doctrine over its followers, only dismisses itself as a religion, and instead becomes a cult-like following with figureheads manipulating their people like puppets - their dogma isn’t religious practice, their dogma is political practice, a broad scope of selfish practice.

every time you say "all religions are hocus pocus" or "mythological" or "absurd" or whatever other degrading labels you give it, you do not do anything but to make yourselves look foolish, narrow minded, and short sighted.  I am telling you this not out of condescent, but I am telling you this so you can perhaps see the errors in your ways, and realize that you cannot fight fire with fire, but you must fight it with water.  Do not attack a person for believing in god, if they believe in god, ask them "why?" and seek first to understand them, before you are quick to jump down them with your own self proclaimed "better" understanding.  There are very many sound reasons to believe in "god", by all the definitions expressed world wide, but you know that divisiveness that Dawkins was bitching about?  What do you think you’re doing when you divide the entire world into two groups, people who do and don’t believe in god?  If you ask many Buddhists, you may get the response that they both do, and they don’t, or they will ask you back "I don’t know, do I?", this is not their absurd mysticism, this is them looking into deeper truths then the typical superficial Kingdom of Americana.

Instead, I submit to you that change the word "god" to "hell", and first attack the book of revelations, this is addressing the very source of the problems, and not dabbling its head in the superficial differences.

I do believe in god, and I don’t believe in god.  If an atheist asked me if I believed in god, I would not, but if a theist asked me if I believed in god, I would, because that is the essential importance to find common ground, not to be dabbled in the superficialities of the concept, but to embrace all for their own beliefs and concepts.

So long as you maintain this kind of behavior, and by that I mean your militant refusal of all concepts of "god" - you are not a part of the solution, you are part of the problem; you have gained a decent following, if it can so be called, but you are leading them on a path of self destruction with "Does God Exist" being your staple argument.  If you change this whole movement to focusing on simply the book of revelations and its own incongruence with the message of Christ, you will be successful beyond your imagination.

To me, practicing religion, is practicing mind, a Buddhist monk was once asked "If you could define Buddhism into two words, what would they be?" and the monk responded with "Practice mindfulness".  Where, truly, is the absurdity in this?  To become mindful and practice ones own mind is "supernatural" and pixie dust in the sky?

I tell you this because many of you had been up to know falsely lead by an idiot.  Richard Dawkins may see and know a lot of the universe, but he doesn’t have the balls to see past himself, and he is a being of darkness that casts more darkness.  I commend him for giving the community atheists a feeling of empowerment, but his reverse condemnation is his own undoing, and he is what I would call a hypocrite.  Does this mean I disagree with everything he says?  No, of course not, I agree with a lot of, if not most of what he says, but some of his most empowering words to you guys are words of reverse condemnation, hes leading a cult-like following by creating his divisive reality and implanting it into our culture.  He says “Religion is divisive”, but he categorizes all of the world into those who do believe in god and those who don’t, so who the flying fuck is he to talk about divisiveness, a great teacher once said that “A person must take the timber out of their own eye before they can see clearly enough to remove the sliver in others”, Dawkins has a very deep intellect but it still cannot see past his own ego – and thus his ego grows and is spread in the contexts of his divisive books.  He is not the authority over you, he does not know better then anybody else, take authority over your self, and look into everything with self-honesty, and serious inquiry, and stop taking sides and picking superficial battles that only increase the problem in America.  With the way things are headed a civil war is likely to be the result, quite literally, these superficial differences seem calm and relaxed now, but give it 20 years of continued hatred, and conditions will have made themselves significantly worse.  Right now youre just shouting across the room "No!  You guys are wrong!  Were the right ones!" and they say "Fuck you assholes, weve got christ bitches, he'll dominate your ass, gods on our side", and then you say "fuck you truth is on our side bitches!  We'll fucking kill you!".  do you see the absurdity in this?

I have said really all that can be said to you guys, if you continue to refuse to see your own undoings, then I cannot help you save your selves.  You so boldly go by the name "free thinker", so use your free thinking.

and congratulations to anybody whom actually read any and especially all of that. 


magilum
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Again, you bring up some

Again, you bring up some interesting points. Do you justify your take on Christianity through scripture? Just wondering.
I understand your distaste for some of the hard line skepticism that doesn't simply demand proof, but dismisses many things rather glibly and with more certainty than is justified. That is, however, only one view; and not necessarily the view of everyone who's ever read Dawkins. There is no leader, and no dogma to atheism. I come here with my own eccentric views, or perhaps just an openness that I don't claim to scientifically justify. But, while I'm willing to entertain what many would call fringe ideas, I do take a practical approach: that they are interesting propositions, but not a foundation of my philosophical outlook. I might be able to intuit something successfully (a "gut feeling&quotEye-wink, but it not being understood by me while still being employed by me, doesn't, unfortunately, provide the basis to relate or confirm an idea objectively.

I'm not certain that consciousness isn't something that exists in its own right outside the body, but I've seen no compelling reason to assume this is so. I am comfortable with the proposition that we are animals with the rare distinction of having become self-aware. It doesn't bother me to suppose that the human experience isn't relevant to the entire universe. I can understand how some would see it as pessimistic if the prior notion was having a well-defined purpose. But I don't see it that way. If you look at the development of life on this planet, to be human; to be an animal that can think in abstract ways, and express itself, is an extraordinary thing. Humanity, whatever its flaws, has acheived tremendous accomplishments, and will continue to do so.

If you still feel there is dimension lacking to the atheist proposition, I wonder whether you've read Sam Harris's The End of Faith. Contrary to some atheist writers, he doesn't reject the value of the subjective experience, but talks about the potential of developing it systematically (as the Buddhists had) in a modern context. 


Brian37
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The following is the the

The following is the the opinion of Brian37 and does not nessarly reflect any other member or the owners of the site:

Anbesol wrote:
God" doesn’t exist. I absolutely agree with you on that, for all the concepts you have of god, are certainly absurd ones. To find a modern American Christian with a good sound concept of "god" is looking for the needle in the haystack. So indeed, all thoughts and presentations of "god" you have been exposed to, DO have their paradoxes and their loopholes and their supernatural expressions, for one example Jesus Christ being a uniquely divine son of god is supernatural to God's capability, this is an absurd and paradoxical expression of god.

Atheists do find these claims absurd. But that is not an insult as you'd like to make it out to be, and never bother to ponder why we call it absurd.

Then you go onto to commit this fallacy:

Quote:
To find a modern American Christian with a good sound concept of "god" is looking for the needle in the haystack.

But lucky us, you came in to save the day. You are the only one with a sound grasp on it. Please tell me you didnt come here thinking we'd never herd that claim from other Christians, or other religions. "I got it right".

You said it yourself what your real intent was and it was not debate, " I only wish to help you "

With what? Are you a marketing firm? In that case Brian would love help with someone who can help this site grow. But that really isnt your intent at all. You want to save the poor poor kittens stuck out in the 20 bellow winter night before they freez to death.

What makes you think we want your "help". You came here, we didnt call you up and say, "Hey could you help us".

The fact is you set yourself up for dissapointment when you fanticised in your head how things were going to go. When that didnt happen, you got upset.

We are atheists and we are going to challenge you and dealing with uncomfortable questions by being introspective. That is how one grows. You came here on a mission when no one here asked you to save us. You expected passive "isnt that nice" responses.

Welcome to reality. Maybe if you'd face it insted of dreaming you might find that it is you that could lern something from us. You never consider that. Your deep indoctrination wont allow you the wonderfull tool of considering better alteritives than ancient myths.Then you accuse us of picking on you which is not what we are doing. We dont want your advice. If you want to make a case for your deity, do so. I think the owners of this site are extreemly competent people and are handling things quite well. This site is not here for theists to "advise us".

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I came here because I see a group of dedicated people that are intelligent and determined, and I want to offer my own personal advice.

The posters here are dedicated and intellegent. Thank you. I am sure the site owners will appreciate that complement. All other issues in this post asside. Now back to your post.

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an organized religion that imposes authoritative doctrine over its followers, only dismisses itself as a religion, and instead becomes a cult-like following with figureheads manipulating their people like puppets - their dogma isn’t religious practice, their dogma is political practice, a broad scope of selfish practice.

No it doesnt dissmiss itself as religion. It becomes a country like Iran in which the religion makes the goverment it's puppet. By your own admission religion is a weapon, and that is something I do agree with. Which is all the more reason to fight absurdity.

The Abrahamic gods are not advise and consent characters. They are autocrats based on "authoritarian" rule. I think it is absurd to bow to one man, one or one party or one religion, so why would I worship one diety who is an authoritarian?

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Right now youre just shouting across the room "No! You guys are wrong! Were the right ones!" and they say "Fuck you assholes, weve got christ bitches, he'll dominate your ass, gods on our side", and then you say "fuck you truth is on our side bitches! We'll fucking kill you!". do you see the absurdity in this?

There is a section of this board called "Kill Em With Kindness".

But there are pleanty of atheists and Christians who dont mind getting down and dirty who dont take offense to it. Now, you are more than welcome to appeal to the board owners to suggest an all "G" rated board, but I doubt that will happen because of the diversity of both the atheists and theists who come here.

So if you are uncomfortable with the "R" rated posts no one hear will force you to read them. But if you know a certain member outside the Library uses certain language and YOU still follow them in, who's fault is that? You are in control of you. You are responsible for you and you only.

Quote:
if you continue to refuse to see your own undoings, then I cannot help you save your selves.

This is not the first post where you make a claim like this. Exactly what are the undoings of the posters or owners of this site? That is a broad statement.

If you have a specific complaint give details and thread quotes and pm a mod. General quotes like that dont help the mods figure anything out.

I think you wrote this long post because you are flustered. I agree. But the problem in dealing with it is in you not us. You cant change us the way you think you can. There is only one way to get us to adapt your position. Make your case. You havent done that.

"If you give him a chance, I just know" is an appeal to emotion. We have herd that from just about every label and sect weither they call it Islam or jew, weither it is organized, or a "Personal God"

"If you just follow my god" was not an original argument first made by you and was around long before the internet and I am quite sure "If you just follow my diety" was done by the volcano worshipers and Isis worshipors and Thor worshipors. But somehow mundain human "wishfull thinking" excaped you.

Now no one here is trying to chase you away, we love a challenge. I dont think you do. I think you set yourself up for dissapointment when you came here and you thought it was going to be easyer than it turned out to be.

So, maybe if you toughen up a bit, get your hands dirty and be brave and aim some of the logic you use to reject all other gods, aim that same logic at your own claims, maybe you'd learn something liberating, like we did when we were brave enough to do the same.

Can you be brave, or are you going to project yourselves on us and continue to bang your head against the wall. We dont want to see you torture yourself, but we are not going to simply change becaue you want us to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Anbesol
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Look, I see both sides of

Look, I see both sides of this, and I agree with a lot of the messages on both sides of this. I see their response to your arguments behind the closed doors that you have not seen. I see how they assess you, and I see how your logic is so easily debunked. I dont "have it right", I came in here to say that nobody, truly, has it right, because the very concept of "right" is to not have anything right at all. There is the present moment. However you have turned all of world religion without a shred of knowledge of them, into mythical unicorns. This is your greatest fallout, and this will be your own undoing. Ignorance is a plague in America, and you are one of its victims. You found A path, but you have not found your OWN path, as youve lived in blind service. This can be obviously seen, by how you assess all paths to "god" as being mythical unicorns, they clearly are not, and just by your saying this is to take such a loud mouthed vow of complete idiocy.

"Does god exist?" is your staple question, and its pedestrian, unsophisticated, irrelavent, superficial, and divisive. Its a bunch of oppressed atheist kids who just got empowered by reading the book "The God Delusion" and suddenly thinking that they are better then all the rest of the world, because damnet! We have SCIENCE! And aaaaalllll haaaailll the SCIENCE! We have superior means of knowing things, because wEEEEE HAAAAAVE SCIIIIEEENCE! Alll hail the SCIENCE! For the same blind commitment you fucking tools have to science, they have to jesus christ as god. But when you can have the intellectual fortitude, and most importantly CAPACITY to see past the conceptual and semantic differences of the whole debate, you find the fucking meat of it, and that is right down to each persons response to having been condemned by a community, and who is in constant political and social conflict with another community of people. This isnt right vs wrong or good vs evil, this is idiot vs polar-idiot, this is all of you whom take such a proud claim of "HIGH TRUTH! SCIENCE PREVAIL" so you hopefully can know that youre just as idiotic as they. I have tried to show you this in so many ways and each time you rejected me, not because you heard what i had to say, but you couldnt swallow your own self-centered fucking pride and even pay attention to a fucking thing i said. Jesus was a brilliant man and I see noone in this entire group yet capable of such a calibur of pure consciousness and pure awareness. You would be well serviced to learn a thing or two from him, it doesnt even fucking require you join his cult, it simply requires that you not be blinded by your hatred for his cult that you cannot even see through your own hatred to see his teachings. If you actually opened your minds, you would see the wonderful teachings of christ, and you would see well enough to make a SUCCESFUL debate.

but you guys keep wasting your time with this "Does god exist" thing, this is a question of elementary minds, and the only people that think that it holds such a weight in the world of "truth" have got to open their eyes. Jesus spoke of people like you - drunkend by their own illusions, so they rejected him because he spoke of what he saw, rather then what they all wanted to see. People want others to complement their opinions and ideologies because their fucking insecurities seek outside authority. But when you can be the authority your self then you can do a lot more. Not a single thing I have said here any of you took note on, but when I rejected some of their ideas, you quickly saw truth. But its funny, how truth works like that, when I am against them, I am in truth, but when I am against you, I am in false. Convenient how that door works one way - your mind is not a unique mind, so long as "Does God Exist?" remains your staple argument.

You have militaristically rejected all outside thought coming in - I put it initially in softer words but you still kept rejecting it, not even with REASONABLE conjectures but with slander and ranting about "unicorns" and you simply look at each other with blind pride and unite under the common cause that SCIENCE IS RIIIIIGGHT!!!

You can not know a man by their labor, you can know them by the fruits of their labor. You keep looking at cause, without looking at effect. Why, in many of the debates you guys have been in, there have been some excellent counter-points, but you havent seen them because you dont see past the differences of semantics.


Anbesol
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all animals are self-aware,

all animals are self-aware, how can a being be anything but self aware? If you are talking about the cognitive capability to recognize ones own existence and know of death - I disagree with you on this. No less - the phenomena of concsciousness goes much deeper then just carbon based life forms, it can be observed beyond that, indeed, many have pursued the possibility that the earth is in and of itself a conscious entity, some others believe it is the Sun in the solar system, but their is no conceivable way we can observe this, and there is no yet conceivable way we can empirically have any sort of capacity to measure such a thing. What we can do is assess the hypothesis with a sense of determinable reason, and conclude what seems to be the most sound conclusion. If we are to look in the world around us, all things rise and fall with the distribution of life, in all of its forms, in the grass and trees and in carbon based life, but - how does anybody know that the very phenomena of consciousness and life exists uniquely amongst carbon based life?

Yes I have read Sam Harrises end of faith, much better then the "God Delusion". though they both very openly encourage each other.
Systematic development lends us right back where we started, it even sounds like it was inspired from Mein Kampf. Systematically is not a good word, there is no need to create a global high-religion, but rather, to coexist with world religion, keep on our cultures, but we can be more aware of other cultures.

The Buddhist communities are now pretty much anything but systematic - they have such a multi-cultural look at all of life, they do not create any arrangement or system.

 

"tinier than a nucleus, it contains galaxies"

We can not know anything about the universe, until we know what exists beyond it, to presume that the universe is finite and its limitations are based on a lack of matter?  Let me ask you, how can anything just "not exist"?  No scientist has been able to explain that, they paint it all with relative concepts. 


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Anbesol wrote:

Anbesol wrote:

I see how they assess you, and I see how your logic is so easily debunked.

I missed that thread.

Quote:
This can be obviously seen, by how you assess all paths to "god" as being mythical unicorns, they clearly are not, and just by your saying this is to take such a loud mouthed vow of complete idiocy.

[edited: missed one of the ego-free attacks on atheists] 

Quote:
For the same blind commitment you fucking tools have to science, they have to jesus christ as god.

How's that self-taught freedom from ego workin' out for you?

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I have tried to show you this in so many ways and each time you rejected me, not because you heard what i had to say, but you couldnt swallow your own self-centered fucking pride and even pay attention to a fucking thing i said.

I love it when the old wise ones insult us poor little peons. Tell us more o' wise one.

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You would be well serviced to learn a thing or two from him, it doesnt even fucking require you join his cult

Tuck your skirt in there hon, the teachings of your favorite tree decoration are firmly planted into modern morality.

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but you guys keep wasting your time with this "Does god exist" thing

We are ATHEISTS, we don't believe in the existance of gods. It is central to our philosophy! In fact, it is our philosophy in it's ENTIRETY.

Quote:
You have militaristically rejected all outside thought coming in - I put it initially in softer words but you still kept rejecting it, not even with REASONABLE conjectures but with slander and ranting about "unicorns" and you simply look at each other with blind pride and unite under the common cause that SCIENCE IS RIIIIIGGHT!!!

Because your arguments lack any provable substance of any kind? Yeh, my bad. I'll join you in your good fight. I surrender.

Did you have a point? Or was this yet another thread who's sole purpose was to tell us you know the one true path?

Couldn't one of your other threads do this just fine? Why do we need a new thread every time you feel like getting some more coverage?


Anbesol
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By the way Jesus Christ was

By the way Jesus Christ was not the authoritarian rule of likes of abraham or moses.  John tries to twist him into one, corinthians, phillipians, romans, acts, titus, timothy, and peter, all do a good job making him authoritarian, but the real thing that makes him the ultimate of authorities is the book of revelation.  none of these authority demanding books had any relevance to christs teachings.  and seeing into this reality is to see through their own, and have the intellectual wherewithall to actually make the difference in this community that you guys so desperately want to make.


marcusfish
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Anbesol wrote: By the way

Anbesol wrote:
By the way Jesus Christ was not the authoritarian rule of likes of abraham or moses. John tries to twist him into one, corinthians, phillipians, romans, acts, titus, timothy, and peter, all do a good job making him authoritarian, but the real thing that makes him the ultimate of authorities is the book of revelation. none of these authority demanding books had any relevance to christs teachings. and seeing into this reality is to see through their own, and have the intellectual wherewithall to actually make the difference in this community that you guys so desperately want to make.

Where do you get this info? That he wasn't like he was depicted in the bible? Isn't the bible the only information available on the Jesus character? 


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I'm no formal student of

I'm no formal student of philosophy, so it's possible I used the wrong term. But I don't think I did. I don't think all animals are self-aware, especially considering how simple an organism can be called "animal." Your version of consciousness as applied to things like the earth sounds wildly speculative, and by your own admission is unsubstantiated. As I'd said, I have an open mind for the subjective experience, but I won't simply accept a proposition merely because it can be described.
I have absolutely no idea why you invoked Mein Kampf, as if to suggest "systematically" implied a cold brutality on its own. I value systematic, methodical thinking because it helps us navigate a world of ideas, not to repeatedly make the same mistakes, and to share our knowledge in a reliable way. I've dealt with enough people who reject ordered ways of thinking, anguished at their repeated errors and bizarre conceits, enough to know it has no appeal for me.
My reference to Sam Harris's proposed model of contemplation has nothing to do with establishing a religion, global or otherwise. Rather, it addresses perceived gaps in the subjective experience that some atheists experience. Some people miss their mantras and prayers, so Harris talks about a model that is not set in dogma or superstition, and is open to continued systematic improvement. He merely sketched the idea out. There's no mention of establishing a religion, or even a secular authority.
I agree with your point on multi-culturalism, to an extent. As a Filipino, I sympathize with cultures denied their futures by oppressive imperial regimes. I don't advocate any kind of monoculture, or the erasure of traditions. My ideal is only a recontextualization of dogma as mythology, but I know this is a tall order.


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If you don't back this up

If you don't back this up with scripture or other references, I'm going to assume you're making it all up or have gathered the info from a disreputable source. 


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Mathew Mark Luke Thomas and

Mathew Mark Luke Thomas and Mary.  They were the most immediate accountings, all the rest came secondary, including john, and the one that came furthest from his teachings was the book of revelations, which conveniently closed the canon.  Read Thomas, Mathew Mark and Luke with an open mind.  It matters not wether he did or he didnt ressurect, and I dont think that any of the synoptic gospels even make it into being of importance.  Jesus' teachings were very deep, and it takes a deep and conscious mind to process and understand them.

When you are faced with death, all things hidden will then become manifest.  When faced with death, you are forced to see beyond your self, and when you see beyond your self, you can then begin to see into others.  For example - you are not you right now, sitting in front of the computer, when you are going on the freeway and you swerve to avoid a 6 car pile-up and you navigate your way through the pile of cars at 60 miles per hour, for that moment, you were you, not the "You" that demands science, not the you that knows identity or segregation, the you that fought for its life.  Face death, and you will see....  But these christians spend so much time running away from their fear of death that they cannot see into themselves and past themselves.

Lets reference pop culture here for a second, perhaps you could better relate, in V for vendetta - when V kept (the hot girl) in and tortured her, and the minute she gave up her life is when he set her free.  He free'd her from her self, the minute she knew what it was to give into death, she knew what it was to give into life.  She knew what it was to fight for her life, so she knew what it was like to run from her life.

Your militaristic precepts, and your "does god exist", i promise to you, is your own undoing.  It is not creating peace and harmony, its causing further division in an already divided social system, and it begs just about the stupidest question on earth.  Before wondering if "god" "exists", why dont you sit outside on your front yard, look at the grass, and wonder if it exists, and if it exists, how does it exist, and explore the deeper meanings of what it is to exist.  Does an ant look up at the sky and see the end of the universe?  Why does the human ego think so highly of itself, that it believes it reached such an apex of knowledge in such a wonderful mystery of life?  exploring life isnt knowing life, its living in awe to its wonder...    


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Anbesol wrote: When you are

Anbesol wrote:
When you are faced with death, all things hidden will then become manifest. When faced with death, you are forced to see beyond your self, and when you see beyond your self, you can then begin to see into others.

Uh huh, and your evidence for this is where? 

Quote:
Lets reference pop culture here for a second, perhaps you could better relate, in V for vendetta - when V kept (the hot girl) in and tortured her, and the minute she gave up her life is when he set her free. He free'd her from her self, the minute she knew what it was to give into death, she knew what it was to give into life. She knew what it was to fight for her life, so she knew what it was like to run from her life.

She had what she believed was a near death experience that affected her view on her own mortality.

I'm sorry, what was this proving? 

Quote:
Your militaristic precepts, and your "does god exist", i promise to you, is your own undoing.

Do you promise? Do you really? Then it must be true, right?

Quote:
Why does the human ego think so highly of itself, that it believes it reached such an apex of knowledge in such a wonderful mystery of life? exploring life isnt knowing life, its living in awe to its wonder...

Neat.

We all done here then? 


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Jesus Christ probably

Jesus Christ probably didn't even exist, so observations about what he said or didn't, ie what has been attributed to hi, are really of no great interest to me, personally. I'll happily leave it to Rook and Rich to sort those things out.

Trying to extract wisdom from the Bible is an utter waste of time, except in the sense you can extract messages that appeal to you from many, many works of both fiction and non-fiction, so all you are really doing is mostly finding stuff to support your own philosphy, which virtually any sufficiently extended and non-trivial text can supply if you look hard enough.

As to "To find a modern American Christian with a good sound concept of "god" is looking for the needle in the haystack.", I find that very funny/sad. "sound concept of Go"???? By what standard? That word has long ago been over-used to the point of meaninglessness.

The whole class of ideas which use the word, either to refer to some actal supernatural entity or a vague principle of some sort, or whatever, are just so juvenile to me.

Purge yourself of all that ancient un-wisdom, whether Abrahamic, Buddhist, whatever, and come to grips with the growing understanding of Life, the Universe, and Everything we are gaining by rational enquiry, driven by a passion for pursuing truth unfiltered by ancient misconceptions and modern new-agey crap.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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magillum - ask any

magillum - ask any philosopher, the greatest answers men has found have not done anything but asked bigger questions.  DesCartes was such an example.  So when you say "humans are self aware and other animals are not", it only opens up pandoras box as to the multitude of greater questions that creates.  Look at the 78 billion light year across universe - does it end?  Whats on the other side of the time warp?  How can something "not exist"?  The big bang theory is just equally as improbable as the creationists theory.

Every assertion only begs a bigger question.

So, tell me then - marcus.  what is god?  If you so adamently disbelieve him, you must certainly have something to disbelieve.  So what is your concept of god that you dont believe in.  Let me guess "oh just any unicorn theory of stupid farey pixie dust doodie booger", you sound like a child when you react like that.  Stephen Hawkins believes in god, and hes one of the most brilliant wonderers of the universe.  Why dont you chock him up to the idiot that you make all other people who believe in god?  

So tell me, if you have made something to disbelieve, then certainly there must be a concept to not believing.  What is your concept of god, oh wise one, tell me...

actually marcus you just sound like an idiot, for your own good swallow your pride and respond like a man. 


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Quote: Jesus was a

Quote:
Jesus was a brilliant man and I see noone in this entire group yet capable of such a calibur of pure consciousness and pure awareness.

"Muhammad was a brilliant man and I see no one in this intire group yet capabple of such a calibur of pure conciousness and pure awareness"

"Buddah was a brilliant man and I see no one in this entire group yet capable of such a calibur of pure conciousness and pure awarness"

Are you seeing the pattern yet. This is the infered pattern that the theist doesnt see. It is all templet stuff with a different name incerted. 

Our point is not to piss you off but to get you to see that your claim of "My deity is special and different" is what they all claim.

You are in the same boat as any other believer of any other label. If you want us to take your position, you have to do better than naked assertions. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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"We are ATHEISTS, we don't

"We are ATHEISTS, we don't believe in the existance of gods. It is central to our philosophy! In fact, it is our philosophy in it's ENTIRETY."

So youve made a central philosophy....  good for you, and you think this is intelligent?

 "Uh huh, and your evidence for this is where? "

well, actually, I was lucky enough to fight death's poison, and I survived.  I saw past myself, when my body had to start fighting for itself, and demanded that I put every ounce of my being into staying alive.  To even ask for "evidence" is stupid.  I promise you, if you dont start opening your eyes, you will on your death bed, come to jesus on your death bed, come crying to your death fearing trembling ass.  You dont have a clue what its like to die - how could you know of any evidence?  in fact, I actually gave it quite a good laugh to hear you ask for evidence.  its mostly a psychological experience, but as you fight for death, with your mind fully involved, all sense of "self" is dissolved, and all that you have done and seen and received had made sense. 

Break on through, to the other side.....  Many people have experienced it, and came back with the wisdom of death, but the blind deaf and dumb are impervious, as you, marcus, so willingly demonstrate.  Every ounce of your conjecture has not been deeply thought, it was superficial attacks, complete ad hominem.  Sure, I have had a few sharp words thrown in here and there, but what I was saying had some deep meaning to it, your small mind just couldnt grapple it.  Swallow your pride, dude.     

 

 


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Anbesol wrote:  The big

Anbesol wrote:

 The big bang theory is just equally as improbable as the creationists theory.

One is based on verifiable data and mathematic extrapolation.

One is based on an omni-powerful superwizard.

Good point. You got me on that one.  

Quote:
Every assertion only begs a bigger question.

The search of knowledge, you're against it? 

Quote:
So, tell me then - marcus. what is god? If you so adamently disbelieve him, you must certainly have something to disbelieve. So what is your concept of god that you dont believe in. Let me guess "oh just any unicorn theory of stupid farey pixie dust doodie booger", you sound like a child when you react like that. Stephen Hawkins believes in god, and hes one of the most brilliant wonderers of the universe. Why dont you chock him up to the idiot that you make all other people who believe in god?

See, you keep listening to your own brain and you should stop quoting things that were never said.

You say that I disbelieve god. The truth is that I have no reason to believe in what is generally referred to as god. What evidence is there? Why should I? You want so desperately to be right and to make me feel like a fool for things that I didn't say. Maybe you should actually use quotes instead of just making up my points for me.

You keep misquoting me (and others) and it's pretty annoying. It just guarantees that we can talk about nothing but your own superiority.  

 

Quote:
actually marcus you just sound like an idiot, for your own good swallow your pride and respond like a man.

Hahaha, or what? You'll insult me? You've done nothing but insult me non-stop.  


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Anbesol wrote:  I promise

Anbesol wrote:

 I promise you, if you dont start opening your eyes, you will on your death bed, come to jesus on your death bed, come crying to your death fearing trembling ass.

You know this how?

See, you just keep making claims with absolutely no rational defense of any kind and you are continually surprised that we don't throw up our hands and claim you are right and we are "lost".

Quote:
You dont have a clue what its like to die - how could you know of any evidence? in fact, I actually gave it quite a good laugh to hear you ask for evidence.

Right, but what you didn't do is consider the fact that a personal opinion is in no way a defensable argument. No? You just laughed and continued spewing rhetoric? That's the other way to go I guess.

Quote:
its mostly a psychological experience, but as you fight for death, with your mind fully involved, all sense of "self" is dissolved, and all that you have done and seen and received had made sense.

See, again you're just talking out of your ass.  

Quote:
but what I was saying had some deep meaning to it, your small mind just couldnt grapple it. Swallow your pride, dude.

Gosh sweet pea, you know me so well. You looked right into my "soul" and saw the "truth".

You're a used car salesman. Trying to sell used up shit to people that aren't buying it because they're not stupid. You insist that we can't see the true value, but it's because you already believe your own bullshit. We are lucky enough to not share your affliction.  


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BobSpence1 wrote: Jesus

BobSpence1 wrote:

Jesus Christ probably didn't even exist, so observations about what he said or didn't, ie what has been attributed to hi, are really of no great interest to me, personally. I'll happily leave it to Rook and Rich to sort those things out.

Trying to extract wisdom from the Bible is an utter waste of time, except in the sense you can extract messages that appeal to you from many, many works of both fiction and non-fiction, so all you are really doing is mostly finding stuff to support your own philosphy, which virtually any sufficiently extended and non-trivial text can supply if you look hard enough.

As to "To find a modern American Christian with a good sound concept of "god" is looking for the needle in the haystack.", I find that very funny/sad. "sound concept of Go"???? By what standard? That word has long ago been over-used to the point of meaninglessness.

The whole class of ideas which use the word, either to refer to some actal supernatural entity or a vague principle of some sort, or whatever, are just so juvenile to me.

Purge yourself of all that ancient un-wisdom, whether Abrahamic, Buddhist, whatever, and come to grips with the growing understanding of Life, the Universe, and Everything we are gaining by rational enquiry, driven by a passion for pursuing truth unfiltered by ancient misconceptions and modern new-agey crap.

Judge not, and you will not be judged, condemn not, and you will not be condemned, forgive, and you will be forgiven.

The forbidden fruit parables

Eyes of a child

Expressions of heavenly father

Concepts of the holy spirit

all the parables of christ have very deep meanings, and even some in the old testament as well.  But there have been few people who spoke with the conscious clarity that Jesus spoke of.  Rooks an idiot and were all well aware of the books hes reading and the "facts" hes finding, if he wishes to rebuke anything on jesus he would easily be handed down by not only myself but the rest of the sane world that realize a man that has been so widely documented must have existed.  There are so many different accountings including that of hte romans and the jews, and even some that were spread through to the more eastern world.  To deny Jesus' existence is moronic.  I wont even entertain such a claim of idiocy.  most of all because its irrelavent to anything.

But seriously, whats the point of questioning his existence?  Has your hatred for his cult exceeded you so much that you try to convince yourself he has never existed?  Has your minds leaning in examining evidence actually brought you to such a wild conclusion?  these conclusions came not from honest inquiry, but rather - deliberate attempts to justify your self.     


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Anbesol wrote: Rooks an

Anbesol wrote:

Rooks an idiot...

You need to calm down.

You're calling a lot of names. If you can't make a point without insulting people than you should consider shutting up.  

All you are doing is insulting people without bringing any solid arguments to the table.

Just being mean and spouting more rhetoric.

 


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You base your ideas on a

You base your ideas on a deep lack of understanding of science, hark back to God ideas and old holy books, all which demonstrates abundantly you just have no grasp of where people like myself are coming from.

I too had some sublime experiences, 'breaking thru' to an outlook where I had purged the last lingering traces of respect for the worn-out ideas of religions and ancient philosphy.

I also more recently have lost respect for philosophy as a source of true insight into anything.

Having heard several times recently accounts of cutting edge research and related discussion in areas such as the origin of the universe and the human mind and consciouness, then listened to contemporary philosophical discussions in the same or closely related topics, I find that the philosphy was so uninformed, bogged down in worn out concepts and jargon.....

So forget about Jesus, throw away the Bible, and embrace true wisdom Smiling

 EDIT: Its not so much a hatred for the million varities of Jesus cults, just anger and frustration at the amount of wasted emotional and intellectual effort invested in such ultimate futility.

The repetition of those platitudes just reinforces who stuck in the mire of those worn-out texts. I am still trying convey to you just how childish it really sounds to me personally. You feel no doubt I haven't gone into that stuff deeply enough to see the true wisdom it contains, whereas I see that I have gone thru that whole gamut of ideas and come out the other side, while you are still enmeshed in it and dazzled by the feeling of deep wisdoms....

Have fun, but please try and understand that it may be yourself who has a lot further to go along the path seeking wisdom. 

 

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marcusfish wrote: Anbesol

marcusfish wrote:
Anbesol wrote:

I promise you, if you dont start opening your eyes, you will on your death bed, come to jesus on your death bed, come crying to your death fearing trembling ass.

You know this how?

See, you just keep making claims with absolutely no rational defense of any kind and you are continually surprised that we don't throw up our hands and claim you are right and we are "lost".

Quote:
You dont have a clue what its like to die - how could you know of any evidence? in fact, I actually gave it quite a good laugh to hear you ask for evidence.

Right, but what you didn't do is consider the fact that a personal opinion is in no way a defensable argument. No? You just laughed and continued spewing rhetoric? That's the other way to go I guess.

Quote:
its mostly a psychological experience, but as you fight for death, with your mind fully involved, all sense of "self" is dissolved, and all that you have done and seen and received had made sense.

See, again you're just talking out of your ass.

Quote:
but what I was saying had some deep meaning to it, your small mind just couldnt grapple it. Swallow your pride, dude.

Gosh sweet pea, you know me so well. You looked right into my "soul" and saw the "truth".

You're a used car salesman. Trying to sell used up shit to people that aren't buying it because they're not stupid. You insist that we can't see the true value, but it's because you already believe your own bullshit. We are lucky enough to not share your affliction.

I dont believe anything, I have no belief system, I simply see that there is no space between cause and effect.  To believe that all things are relative is hardly a "belief system".

 and actually, youre wrong, you are stupid.  you are incredibly stupid, from all of the things you have said, you have presented a stupid man.  You can know someone by the fruits of their labor, and those words are the fruits of your labor, and those words are moronic.

Rook is also an example of stupidity, yet you guys highlight him as your high-brow intellectual leader second in command to brian sapient?  he takes pictures of himself reading books, and you guys think this is an example of intelligence?  This is the wisdom of the sages?  Can you guys not just face the reality that their are and there have been many people far wiser then you who have lived?  you are so quick to demand you know everything but you dont even know what you claim you know, you need to reference your authority each time you try to debate, you look for journal articles to prove your right, without proving it to your self.

I called you a tool not out of my ego, out of seeing the fruits of your labor, and seeind a deep ego filtering your perceptions. 


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To be honest with you, I

To be honest with you, I don't really care about Jesus lol. I don't look to gospels, and I don't look to the bible.

The big bang, surprisingly, has a lot of evidence supporting it, and has, not so much been proved, but has been hypothesized and has yet to be proved false. Through the scientific method, we've been able to determine that our universe can infact come about naturally, and I think it did come about naturally. The big bang > Creation. 

"Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.


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So tell me then, oh wise

So tell me then, oh wise bob - Zen traditions have Koans. One such koan is the famous "If a tree falls in the woods, but noone is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

there is an answer to that, what do you think that answer is? in your high knowledge.

By the way anybody that dismisses all religion is an idiot, plain and simple, you are where you are because your human conditionings brought you there, not because you have found ultimate reality and ultimate truth, you only think you do through the guise of your own ego.

And marcus - you were throwing names at me about 12 posts before I started anything with you. If you dont want to throw names around, perhaps you should practice as preached.

and bob, i'm plenty familiar with science, thank you. 


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Anbesol wrote: you are

Anbesol wrote:

you are stupid... you are incredibly stupid... and those words are moronic...Rook is also an example of stupidity

I called you a tool not out of my ego, out of seeing the fruits of your labor, and seeind a deep ego filtering your perceptions.

Smooth. 


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Anbesol wrote:magillum -

Anbesol wrote:
magillum - ask any philosopher, the greatest answers men has found have not done anything but asked bigger questions.  DesCartes was such an example.  So when you say "humans are self aware and other animals are not", it only opens up pandoras box as to the multitude of greater questions that creates.

How so? In a model of life where the human brain is more complex than that of a housefly, and humans demonstrate a characteristic of self-awareness that a housefly does not, where is the contradiction? I think it's self-evident that humans possess mental qualities that most animals do not. This is perfectly consistent with the idea that the mind and brain are one and the same.

 

Anbesol wrote:
Look at the 78 billion light year across universe - does it end?  Whats on the other side of the time warp?  How can something "not exist"?  The big bang theory is just equally as improbable as the creationists theory.

The big bang doesn't suggest anything about the way I choose to live in the way that religious propositions presume to. Science doesn't presume to have the answers to life's philosophical dilemmas, but rather to establish reliable models for the way things actually are. The idea that a sense of a definite purpose, or an underlying intelligence, needs to be suggested by something (religious or otherwise) is not a problem that's kept me up at night. 
Anbesol wrote:
"We are ATHEISTS, we don't believe in the existance of gods. It is central to our philosophy! In fact, it is our philosophy in it's ENTIRETY."

Atheism is too simple an idea for anyone to call a philosophy. You seem to be relying on a straw-man rather than the attitudes of actual atheists in practice. As I'd said, I feel the atheist is no more deprived of the subjective experience than he or she is the moral one.
Anbesol wrote:
well, actually, I was lucky enough to fight death's poison, and I survived.  I saw past myself, when my body had to start fighting for itself, and demanded that I put every ounce of my being into staying alive.  To even ask for "evidence" is stupid.

Subjective experiences have value to the experiencer, but they cannot be validated. That impossibility of their validation doesn't validate them. It leaves them unvalidated.
Anbesol wrote:
I promise you, if you dont start opening your eyes, you will on your death bed, come to jesus on your death bed, come crying to your death fearing trembling ass.  You dont have a clue what its like to die - how could you know of any evidence?  in fact, I actually gave it quite a good laugh to hear you ask for evidence.  its mostly a psychological experience, but as you fight for death, with your mind fully involved, all sense of "self" is dissolved, and all that you have done and seen and received had made sense.

An appeal to consequencs? I'm disappointed.


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marcusfish wrote: Anbesol

marcusfish wrote:
Anbesol wrote:

you are stupid... you are incredibly stupid... and those words are moronic...Rook is also an example of stupidity

I called you a tool not out of my ego, out of seeing the fruits of your labor, and seeind a deep ego filtering your perceptions.

Smooth.

I was merely making an empirical observation, I read your words and rooks, I watch rook talk on videos, and take pictures of himself reading books, and I observe that hes an idiot.  its a scientific fact. 


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magilum wrote: Anbesol

magilum wrote:
Anbesol wrote:
"We are ATHEISTS, we don't believe in the existance of gods. It is central to our philosophy! In fact, it is our philosophy in it's ENTIRETY."

Atheism is too simple an idea for anyone to call a philosophy. You seem to be relying on a straw-man rather than the attitudes of actual atheists in practice. As I'd said, I feel the atheist is no more deprived of the subjective experience than he or she is the moral one.

He was actually quoting me. I was actually just pointing out that he was assuming that we all agreed upon his assertion of consciousness etc. I was hoping to expose the fact that he was on an atheist board and that he might have to actually present a defensable point to get us all to rally behind him.

I agree, philosophy is a bit strong :p 


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The fact that you are still

The fact that you are still apparently intrigued by that old tree thing just further confirms how far yoy have yet to go. Cool

 I don't actually claim all wisdom by any means, but I feel I have found an approach to life and the pursuit of wisdom which really seems to work for me, and inasfar as I compare it to other approaches, such as you appear to be describing/recommending, seems to work remarkably well.

Of course, your way may work very well for you, with a different background and life experience. Fine, as long as you are prepared to acknowledge that YOU may not posess the ultimate answer to living life.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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Anbesol wrote: marcusfish

Anbesol wrote:
marcusfish wrote:
Anbesol wrote:

you are stupid... you are incredibly stupid... and those words are moronic...Rook is also an example of stupidity

I called you a tool not out of my ego, out of seeing the fruits of your labor, and seeind a deep ego filtering your perceptions.

Smooth.

I was merely making an empirical observation, I read your words and rooks, I watch rook talk on videos, and take pictures of himself reading books, and I observe that hes an idiot. its a scientific fact.

Yet again you prove that you have absolutely no understanding of science ... whatsoever.

And you're still proving that you are a mean, hateful, judgemental person. You should step away from the computer and take a walk or something.

Yunno?

Take a deep breath maybe.  


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Anbesol responded I dont

Anbesol responded

I dont believe anything, I have no belief system, I simply see that there is no space between cause and effect.  To believe that all things are relative is hardly a "belief system".

 and actually, youre wrong, you are stupid.  you are incredibly stupid, from all of the things you have said, you have presented a stupid man.  You can know someone by the fruits of their labor, and those words are the fruits of your labor, and those words are moronic.

 Wow. Still hung up on simplistic "cause/effect", asserting "no belief system" in the teeth of the evidence of your own words, then slipping into intemperate abuse.

Way to impress us, dude Laughing .

Whatever default respect I may have had for this person has completely evaporated. I am sorry I wasted so much thought and typing on my first day back in the forums after some months break.

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magilum wrote: Anbesol

magilum wrote:
Anbesol wrote:
magillum - ask any philosopher, the greatest answers men has found have not done anything but asked bigger questions. DesCartes was such an example. So when you say "humans are self aware and other animals are not", it only opens up pandoras box as to the multitude of greater questions that creates.

Quote:
How so? In a model of life where the human brain is more complex than that of a housefly, and humans demonstrate a characteristic of self-awareness that a housefly does not, where is the contradiction? I think it's self-evident that humans possess mental qualities that most animals do not. This is perfectly consistent with the idea that the mind and brain are one and the same.
Again, you are making us relative to the housefly.  Why dont you measure us against the sun, how do we stand in self-awareness compared to teh sun?  The brain has thoughts that are clearly human and unique in the animal kingdom, but it does not describe what gives rise to those thoughts, the consciousness that allows us to dwell in the present moment.  The mind is not the function of the present moment, consciousness is, call it the consciousness of your consciousness if you will.  It is the very energy that gives rise to your thoughts.

Anbesol wrote:
Look at the 78 billion light year across universe - does it end? Whats on the other side of the time warp? How can something "not exist"? The big bang theory is just equally as improbable as the creationists theory.

Quote:
The big bang doesn't suggest anything about the way I choose to live in the way that religious propositions presume to. Science doesn't presume to have the answers to life's philosophical dilemmas, but rather to establish reliable models for the way things actually are. The idea that a sense of a definite purpose, or an underlying intelligence, needs to be suggested by something (religious or otherwise) is not a problem that's kept me up at night.
I agree, there is no high purpose for man, there is no high truth to aspire to, there is no ultimate reality, there is just here, right now, dwelling in the reality at the present moment.
Anbesol wrote:
"We are ATHEISTS, we don't believe in the existance of gods. It is central to our philosophy! In fact, it is our philosophy in it's ENTIRETY."

Quote:
Atheism is too simple an idea for anyone to call a philosophy. You seem to be relying on a straw-man rather than the attitudes of actual atheists in practice. As I'd said, I feel the atheist is no more deprived of the subjective experience than he or she is the moral one.
and what I am saying is that you guys can open your minds to other religions, you will find you have never been in conflict with them ideologically, and that they are people too, and they are good people, and I am not saying to live a religious life, I am saying that some very wonderful brilliant and inspirational men HAVE been religious, and that religion has a lot of valuable lessons to teach.  it is not about mind control, I dont give a shit if anybody here decides to take up buddhism, I am just saying to oppose something you dont have a clue about is narrow minded.  marcus denies all existence of god, despite the fact hes ignorant to the large variation of conceptions of god.  How can he refuse to believe in something he has not conceived? 
Anbesol wrote:
well, actually, I was lucky enough to fight death's poison, and I survived. I saw past myself, when my body had to start fighting for itself, and demanded that I put every ounce of my being into staying alive. To even ask for "evidence" is stupid.
Quote:
Subjective experiences have value to the experiencer, but they cannot be validated. That impossibility of their validation doesn't validate them. It leaves them unvalidated.
So because we cant put that experience in a lab and "observe it" with superior means of science means its not real?  why dont you observe what i said and think for your self, just because it is outside of science does not make it any less real.  And you can find out - just go do something in which you'll have to fight for your life to survive, and you'll find out, take poison if you have to, so your body can fight for itself.  you will see these things if you let yourself die, but so long as you think you are, as you are, and who you are, you remain deluded by the illusion of self. 
Anbesol wrote:
I promise you, if you dont start opening your eyes, you will on your death bed, come to jesus on your death bed, come crying to your death fearing trembling ass. You dont have a clue what its like to die - how could you know of any evidence? in fact, I actually gave it quite a good laugh to hear you ask for evidence. its mostly a psychological experience, but as you fight for death, with your mind fully involved, all sense of "self" is dissolved, and all that you have done and seen and received had made sense.

An appeal to consequencs? I'm disappointed.

Sorry it seems that way, I do not wish to impose any religion unto you, I am simply saying that people who act gung ho and convict themselves by what they beleive will have their beliefs challenged, inside of themselves, upon facing death, face to face.

I do not convict myself by any beliefs, I came in here not to impost dogmatic high truths, I came in here to give honest observation, and I was largely rejected by "youre an idiot god doesnt exist yo its hardly likely jesus even existed all religions are fairy tales".

I do not stand convicted by any belief. 


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BobSpence1 wrote: Anbesol

BobSpence1 wrote:

Anbesol responded

I dont believe anything, I have no belief system, I simply see that there is no space between cause and effect. To believe that all things are relative is hardly a "belief system".

and actually, youre wrong, you are stupid. you are incredibly stupid, from all of the things you have said, you have presented a stupid man. You can know someone by the fruits of their labor, and those words are the fruits of your labor, and those words are moronic.

Wow. Still hung up on simplistic "cause/effect", asserting "no belief system" in the teeth of the evidence of your own words, then slipping into intemperate abuse.

Way to impress us, dude Laughing .

Whatever default respect I may have had for this person has completely evaporated. I am sorry I wasted so much thought and typing on my first day back in the forums after some months break.

youre clever, in a sort of deeply deluded self-reality sort of way.  You look so hard to find problems in what i say, before you even begin to see anything else i said.  The understanding that ther eis no space between cause and effect is hardly a belief system.  But tell me, what space exists between cause and effect?  Tell me oh obelisk of brilliance, what great truth awaits me in your land of infinite knowledge!

you actually just sound like a bitter man that was spit on by his community, so youre taking the time and dedication to spit back, to show that spitting is wrong.   I dont care to earn your respect,when you cant even show your own self any respect.


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Anbesol wrote: marcus

Anbesol wrote:
marcus denies all existence of god, despite the fact hes ignorant to the large variation of conceptions of god. How can he refuse to believe in something he has not conceived?

Having no reason whatsoever to believe in something is reason enough for me not to believe in it. You presume that by not believing in supernatural beings etc that I am somehow incapable of seeing wisdom that may come from the stories surrounding them. You assert that if I deny the idea of the supernatural that I am somehow ignorant. 

What gives? 

 


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Anbesol wrote: youre

Anbesol wrote:

youre clever, in a sort of deeply deluded self-reality sort of way. You look so hard to find problems in what i say, before you even begin to see anything else i said. The understanding that ther eis no space between cause and effect is hardly a belief system. But tell me, what space exists between cause and effect? Tell me oh obelisk of brilliance, what great truth awaits me in your land of infinite knowledge!

you actually just sound like a bitter man that was spit on by his community, so youre taking the time and dedication to spit back, to show that spitting is wrong. I dont care to earn your respect,when you cant even show your own self any respect.

HOLY COW you're a hateful little fucker.


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Anbesol wrote:

Anbesol wrote:

So tell me then, oh wise bob - Zen traditions have Koans. One such koan is the famous "If a tree falls in the woods, but noone is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

there is an answer to that, what do you think that answer is? in your high knowledge.

By the way anybody that dismisses all religion is an idiot, plain and simple, you are where you are because your human conditionings brought you there, not because you have found ultimate reality and ultimate truth, you only think you do through the guise of your own ego.

And marcus - you were throwing names at me about 12 posts before I started anything with you. If you dont want to throw names around, perhaps you should practice as preached.

and bob, i'm plenty familiar with science, thank you.

Yea, you are SO familure with science that you cant see the absurdity of 3 day old dead flesh surviving rigor mortis.

And I am sure the "science" you precive has a lab somewhere with a petri dish with "spirit sperm" in it.

Yep, your version of science does have a lab. I think they call it "Marvel Comics".

I find it funny that in prior posts you bash science then in this the quote above embrace it. Which is it? Is science good, or is it bad? Or is it only good when it coincides with your disires and emotions?

This isnt about us at all as much as you want it to be. This is about ALL religions, and sects and "personal god(s)" writin by ancient people who had NO CLUE what the earth, solar system, galaxy or universe actually was. Unfortunatly you got caught up in it a sappy sweet story someone sold you. Every religion and every person who claims a deity likes to paint them as rosey.

But you never consider that it is only in your head because someone was successfull in selling you the idea. You never questioned it because the emotional appeal was so strong.

Do you even know how powerfull brain chemicals can be in times of stress or conflict or depression? That can cause you to buy things that might not be good for you. And that is not just about religion.

Look at comercials on TV. Adreniline junkies are targeted by car companies who show the cars speeding around curves on a mountian road.

Look at pro-wrestling. It utilizes the appeal of "good vs evil" and throws in mucle bound guys and chicks with hot bodies.

Look at car companies that sell vans to soccer moms. The adds talk about child safty and air bags.

Do you honestly think that your religion or any religion is immune to marketing? Part of marketing is looking at others products and seeing what they do right and incorperating the older motifs into a new product.

You baught your belief, not because you wanted to kick the tires and look under the hood. You baught it because it offered you frequent flyer miles that dont exist. You wanted to fly so bad(belong to something bigger than you) that you baught it.

If people treated religion with the skeptism the should with a used car salesmen they would be better off. Sure, he smiles and tells you how great the car is, but no one ever checks under the hood.

Quote:
By the way anybody that dismisses all religion is an idiot

Im confused. First you call us intelegent now we are idiots? Do you need some Prozac? 

 

 

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Anbesol wrote: Again, you

Anbesol wrote:

Again, you are making us relative to the housefly.  Why dont you measure us against the sun, how do we stand in self-awareness compared to teh sun?  The brain has thoughts that are clearly human and unique in the animal kingdom, but it does not describe what gives rise to those thoughts, the consciousness that allows us to dwell in the present moment.  The mind is not the function of the present moment, consciousness is, call it the consciousness of your consciousness if you will.  It is the very energy that gives rise to your thoughts.

 

Why can't it just be the brain?

 

Anbesol wrote:

I agree, there is no high purpose for man, there is no high truth to aspire to, there is no ultimate reality, there is just here, right now, dwelling in the reality at the present moment.

 

That would be the simplest answer.

 

Anbesol wrote:

and what I am saying is that you guys can open your minds to other religions, you will find you have never been in conflict with them ideologically, and that they are people too, and they are good people,

 

'Twas never a question for me.

 

Anbesol wrote:

and I am not saying to live a religious life, I am saying that some very wonderful brilliant and inspirational men HAVE been religious, and that religion has a lot of valuable lessons to teach.

 

Well, it has a lot of things, of varying quality, to teach. I'd gladly shed the dogma and mythology in favor of what Harris called a "mature science of the mind" that takes into account the value of the subjective experience. This is why I continue to be interested in things like meditation for its appreciable effects on the state of consciousness.

 

I don't see any value in practicing religion per se, but there are valuable effects collaterally. The trouble is, the explicit practice of religion is used to dignify a lot of backward and useless and oppressive ideas.

 

Anbesol wrote:

it is not about mind control, I dont give a shit if anybody here decides to take up buddhism, I am just saying to oppose something you dont have a clue about is narrow minded.  marcus denies all existence of god, despite the fact hes ignorant to the large variation of conceptions of god.  How can he refuse to believe in something he has not conceived?

 

I don't agree that "god" is a consistent term.

 

Anbesol wrote:

So because we cant put that experience in a lab and "observe it" with superior means of science means its not real?  why dont you observe what i said and think for your self, just because it is outside of science does not make it any less real.

 

I've explained my position on this repeatedly. The subjective experience is something I can observe, but not something I ought to expect others to take my word for. My only deference to science here is that I acknowledge the principles of what can be legitimately called science, and at the present moment it doesn't include my subjective experiences because they can't be repeated and tested. I still respect my senses, obviously, but they're not the basis for definitive scientific claims.

 

Anbesol wrote:

And you can find out - just go do something in which you'll have to fight for your life to survive, and you'll find out, take poison if you have to, so your body can fight for itself.  you will see these things if you let yourself die, but so long as you think you are, as you are, and who you are, you remain deluded by the illusion of self. 

 

At the risk of being glib that sounds like a recipe for hallucination. The "loss of self" is a feeling I've experienced frequently and without prompting, but I am a bit odd.

 

Anbesol wrote:

Sorry it seems that way, I do not wish to impose any religion unto you, I am simply saying that people who act gung ho and convict themselves by what they beleive will have their beliefs challenged, inside of themselves, upon facing death, face to face.

 

Perhaps this is so in some cases, but it's a logical fallacy that doesn't substantiate its premise.


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BobSpence1 wrote: The fact

BobSpence1 wrote:

The fact that you are still apparently intrigued by that old tree thing just further confirms how far yoy have yet to go. Cool

I don't actually claim all wisdom by any means, but I feel I have found an approach to life and the pursuit of wisdom which really seems to work for me, and inasfar as I compare it to other approaches, such as you appear to be describing/recommending, seems to work remarkably well.

Of course, your way may work very well for you, with a different background and life experience. Fine, as long as you are prepared to acknowledge that YOU may not posess the ultimate answer to living life.

Are you still pissed off about daddy whipping you, that you take it so much upon yourself, that you are now such a big man, that you can whoop up on others just as daddy whooped up on you?  You sound like an eager child looking to break free from this tragic shell you call your body, and youre disguising it all under the shallow but deeply rooted ego that you keep yourself so closely attached too.   Youve said nothing intelligent, just very self absorbed.  Your actions of condescendingness towards others tells a lot about what kind of a person YOU are.  You have put your self on such a plane high above me, but that plane is your imagination there kiddo, that plane of reality only exists in your own head.  Ive never made any infringements on your perception, I only had my own beleifs and opinions and trying to express them was not easy, in a community that cannot open their ears to hear anybody but the cheers of their own egos.  Just based on the few posts I have read of yours, I am convinced that you are the most egotistical RRS member I have yet heard of - and fucking Rook takes pictures of himself reading books.


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Preconceptions - An

Preconceptions - An opinion or conception formed in advance of adequate knowledge or experience, especially a prejudice or bias.

Quote:
Yea, you are SO familure with science that you cant see the absurdity of 3 day old dead flesh surviving rigor mortis.

funny, because I believe in god, I must believe in Jesus Christ being the son of god, and a ressurected savior. I never said sucha thing, I never wished or said anything about believing that 3 day old dead corpse can ressurect itself. I believe the mythology was more of an expression of symbology then it is anything else. When you understand the depths of Jesus teachings of the holy spirit - there is a profound sumbol present in the mythological value of his ressurection. I actually do not believe Jesus could have survived 3 days of rigor mortis, from the research Ive done, its hard for a brain to survive 5-10 minutes of rigor mortise, much less 3 days. I am quite inclined to believe that there was no 3 day old dead body that was ressurected. But, I do also believe that Jesus spoke of god, with an almost perfect clarity.

At the same time, I believe anything is possible, perhaps he never died on the cross, perhaps he fought death with such strength that he survived through the physical torment. But to be really honest - I dont really give a flying fuck wether he did or did not ressurect, his teachings only lasted 3-4 years, so I am inclined to believe he did not. His teachings are the meat of his life, so why do we give a fuck about the death?

More specifically, I do not regard him as any better then anybody else, including all of you here, I think that he spoke of conscious clarity that we can all achieve, or find it in us to maintain. I certainly do not believe in the fairy tale of the holy spirit causing immaculate conception, this is an example of something I do not believe, combined with his 3 day old dead body ressurecting himself.

Now, you acting out of the preconception that beCAUSE I believed in god, I must have the same concept of god as these christians do...... Do not lump me with them, I am not them, I am me, and I have my own thoughts and beliefs. To cling ot a label is the practice of idiots. A great teacher once told me "A religious man cannot be a christian, or a hindu, or a buddhist, a religious man must be everything, and take from all what he can" As soon as I am a buddhist, I am not a Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Jew, etc etc - but these labels should not divide us, and right now, you are helping these labels divide america. Do not look at the superficial differences, look at the real differences, for example, the shitty writings of the new testament, being everything past luke, and particularly revelations, on the canon being closed. The scriptures of the new testament are like a novelty compared to the scriptures, sutras, mantras, and dharmas of the east. Like a cheap toy next to them. The one thing that does stand out about the bible is Jesus, an obviously brilliant man.

 

You are so quick to point the finger at me, might i suggest you have been screaming at your reflection of your self?

 

also, when I say youre intelligent, and idiots - its that you have the brains, but you arent using them. 


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Quote: So because we cant

Quote:
So because we cant put that experience in a lab and "observe it" with superior means of science means its not real?  why dont you observe what i said and think for your self, just because it is outside of science does not make it any less real.

Now to double Jeopordy,

"I'll take fallacy for 2,000 Alex"

Your problem is that when you "experiance" something is that you jump to a conclusion as to what the cause was, insted of saying, "I dont know"

That is what caused people to pray to volcanos. They jumped to the conclusion that the big bad mountain was angrey at them.

No one is doubting that you have "experiances", but what is atributed to the super natural is merely natural and is caused by entense feelings. 

I used to have entense feelings at night of fear of the "boogieman" getting me. I used to cover myself in stuffed animals to protect myself from the "evil" things lurking in my closet. That went on for years untill I got tired of being scared and stared into the closet.

I now know they were merely shaddows. And when I stared long enough my puples would open up enough to let enough light in to expose the illusion that was never real.

Your brain activity can cause you to think or see or feel things that are not real but you think are real. Deities and religion are an artifical coping mechinism people create to give themselves a sense of comfort or protection from fear. 

If you dont know what something is you are more fearfull and aprehensive. But if you give it a name you have a sense of control.

 


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Ah for fucks sake man quit

Ah for fucks sake man quit assuming what im doing, I never said I KNOW any cause, I am in constant inquisition to cause, I never can contain KNOWING because as a subject it is completely impossible to find objective knowledge. I do not KNOW of any experience. You are still acting with preconceptions towards me.

I do not believe I have a "sense of control" over god, I do not think there is a "Sense of control", god is just hte manifestation of life. Why do you keep demanding you think you know so much about what i think of god? You obviously were quick to make the assumption that just because I believe in god means that I believe in the fundamentalistic concepts of him. In that regards I am very atheistic, but "god" is just the continuum of consciousness.

You are very quick to put ideas into me, ideas that I gave you no evidence for, you just prejudicially decided WHAT it was that I believed.


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Anbesol

Anbesol wrote:

Preconceptions - An opinion or conception formed in advance of adequate knowledge or experience, especially a prejudice or bias.

Quote:
Yea, you are SO familure with science that you cant see the absurdity of 3 day old dead flesh surviving rigor mortis.

funny, because I believe in god, I must believe in Jesus Christ being the son of god, and a ressurected savior. I never said sucha thing, I never wished or said anything about believing that 3 day old dead corpse can ressurect itself. I believe the mythology was more of an expression of symbology then it is anything else. When you understand the depths of Jesus teachings of the holy spirit - there is a profound sumbol present in the mythological value of his ressurection. I actually do not believe Jesus could have survived 3 days of rigor mortis, from the research Ive done, its hard for a brain to survive 5-10 minutes of rigor mortise, much less 3 days. I am quite inclined to believe that there was no 3 day old dead body that was ressurected. But, I do also believe that Jesus spoke of god, with an almost perfect clarity.

At the same time, I believe anything is possible, perhaps he never died on the cross, perhaps he fought death with such strength that he survived through the physical torment. But to be really honest - I dont really give a flying fuck wether he did or did not ressurect, his teachings only lasted 3-4 years, so I am inclined to believe he did not. His teachings are the meat of his life, so why do we give a fuck about the death?

More specifically, I do not regard him as any better then anybody else, including all of you here, I think that he spoke of conscious clarity that we can all achieve, or find it in us to maintain. I certainly do not believe in the fairy tale of the holy spirit causing immaculate conception, this is an example of something I do not believe, combined with his 3 day old dead body ressurecting himself.

Now, you acting out of the preconception that beCAUSE I believed in god, I must have the same concept of god as these christians do...... Do not lump me with them, I am not them, I am me, and I have my own thoughts and beliefs. To cling ot a label is the practice of idiots. A great teacher once told me "A religious man cannot be a christian, or a hindu, or a buddhist, a religious man must be everything, and take from all what he can" As soon as I am a buddhist, I am not a Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Jew, etc etc - but these labels should not divide us, and right now, you are helping these labels divide america. Do not look at the superficial differences, look at the real differences, for example, the shitty writings of the new testament, being everything past luke, and particularly revelations, on the canon being closed. The scriptures of the new testament are like a novelty compared to the scriptures, sutras, mantras, and dharmas of the east. Like a cheap toy next to them. The one thing that does stand out about the bible is Jesus, an obviously brilliant man.

 

Humn, so you dont believe he was ressurected? Just a man. WOW, Tomas Jefferson might have agreed with you, but he was also accused of being an atheist. And guess what, most people would call you an atheist because you doubt his death now.

Look, here is the point. I called you on an absurtity and now you are backpeddling. When you first came here you mentioned nothing about this.

In fact when I first brought up the rigor mortis issue, you said, "That is the beuty of it, it only happened to him which makes it so special",

Now you are saying it might not have happened at all? Now you are not clinging to the magic, but still want to cling to the words.

You cant say that you didnt passionatly believe at one time that he survived three days of death. You did, you talked about all the witnesses. Now you are saying "OK, MAYBE THAT DIDNT HAPPEN, BUT he did say some nice things"

You are getting there. I see it comming, now take the next step.

"Jesus said some nice things" So? Even if I believed he was a real man, many people throughout human history said "nice things"

I am fond of Plato's Apollogy because in it Socrates illistrates that it is wise to question authority. But Plato never claimed that Socrates could make a purple snarfwidget or pink unicorn. But that was only a play no matter now "nice" the illistration was.

I can find nice motifs in Harry Potter and Star Wars. It doesnt mean that little boys fly around on broomsticks or that Luke hangs out with a Wookie.

 

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"In fact when I first

"In fact when I first brought up the rigor mortis issue, you said, "That is the beuty of it, it only happened to him which makes it so special","

I absolutely never said such a thing. I promise, you completely misunderstood what I said if thats what you took of it. I have maintained the adement position that nobody is less then or greater thena nybody else, and this includes jesus.

bottom line: I think Jesus was way ahead of his time, peopel were not ready to hear what he had to say, and peopel did not know how to see what it was he was saying, he was a master teaching only 3 years to a fallen city.  He is still, to this day, misunderstood by his own cult-like followers, and i can prove this not by making my own observations outside of his, but using his observations and seeing them manifest in today.  Jesus very ademently taught that no one is to be condemned as less then anybody else, and yet the foundation of the christian principle is on condemnation.  this is the hypocrisy, 


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Anbesol wrote: If you want

Anbesol wrote:

If you want help, assess what I am trying to tell you with honesty - if you truly have a caring bone in your body for your own cause, you will greatly benefit from reading this. I only wish to help you - I do not think I am better then any of you, but I do believe that I see more clearly in the regards to religion.

OK. However, the rest of your posts have not illustrated your 'caring'.

Quote:
Some may call it awful pretentious that I come in here and spout my own perceptions, but I came here not to spout, but out of compassion towards a common cause that we both have, the dissolution of Evangelical america.

OHHHH! See? We want to debunk ALL religions not just evangelical America. By all religions, I also mean the kind of stuff that you espouse which in your posts and threads has been rather hard to pin down and label. Any belief wearing a tag of theism is what I'm after.

Quote:
I came here because I see a group of dedicated people that are intelligent and determined, and I want to offer my own personal advice. Yes, I am under the full understanding that what I am about to say came from me, and is no ones opinion but my own - but look honestly into what I am going to tell you, without getting offended or without just immediately dismissing my conjectures.

We certainly don't do that unless it is something which you should have already read with regard to your point.

I've asked several theists if they have looked honestly at the material. I can also accept the fact that some of them are prevented from doing this because they are programmed by their religion not to.

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Is this about the longest thread ever posted? lol. I spent like 30 minutes on this thing. Please, take the 5 minutes it takes to read. Also - some tool claimed I was "copping out" of a debate, so here we go. Please, lets not make this a competing debate, lets make this an honest discussion....

I'll do better. I'll take at least 30 minutes to respond. I read the thread you are referencing and in my opinion, you are 'copping out'. Debates are supposed to be honest discussions with factual information to support opposing sides of an issue. right?

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"God" doesn’t exist. I absolutely agree with you on that, for all the concepts you have of god, are certainly absurd ones.

Why not yours too? Is this a 'no true scotsman' or a plea for Pascal's wager?

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To find a modern American Christian with a good sound concept of "god" is looking for the needle in the haystack.

Oh. No true scotsman.

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So indeed, all thoughts and presentations of "god" you have been exposed to, DO have their paradoxes and their loopholes and their supernatural expressions, for one example Jesus Christ being a uniquely divine son of god is supernatural to God's capability, this is an absurd and paradoxical expression of god. But to look deeper into it, seeing Jesus Christ as a mortal man and a son of god, you can see that he has never been better then any of us, he has only seen more clearly then most of us have.

Ummm. You know this how?

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He realizes he is the son of god, only in the same way we all are, this is why he says "When you can see me as the son of man and the son of god, then you will enter into the Kingdom", not to be achieved in an after life, but to be seen during life. He never proclaimed himself to be better then anybody else, he only expressed what came out of pure conscious clarity, and in the contexts of his teachings, you can see that pure conscious clarity. Though much of what was pure conscious clarity at that time, had to have been expressed in parables, as per the limitations of human language, he created riddles to dive deeper into consciousness, further then words can get you. This is the same of all the great leaders, who taught of "god" or consciousness, realizing the conscious host that exists amongst us, but not independent of us.

You make an awful lot of presuppositions here. This is preaching, not an honest discussion.

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To see god, to believe in god does not take a leap of blind faith, but an honest inquiry into ones own sense of self, sense of being, and ones own personal conceptualizations towards achieving this understanding. But, you do not need to call it "god", you can call it whatever the fuck you want.

OK. I call it delusional. Sorry. You said I could call it what I wanted to.

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You can call it your flying spaghetti monster, words cannot contain the truth, they can only express the truth.

Words can also be used to suppress the truth. 'Spin' doctors can make a lot of money. Or they can create religions.

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To see god is to see the pure conscious clarity that exists within you, when you come to this realization, you will believe, because you will see, and all things that have been hidden from you will now become manifest, and all things that have been misunderstood will now be understood. but only, with pure conscious clarity.

Oh I do see it. I am god then. right?

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There is a deep truth into the Garden of Eden parable; the fruit of knowledge is what casts us from the Garden. However, this forbidden fruit is nothing more then a hallucinogenic of mind - it is your own mental thought coverings that shelter you from reality and experiencing the truth depths of consciousness. To dissolute ones self form ones mind, one must first dissolute ones self FROM ones self.

Wait a minute. You just said that words are supposed to express the truth and then you use this story about snakes talking,

OH. Reality shelters me from reality? My mental thought coverings??? Neuron mittens? I've given this a chance really, but you've really hurt your personal ideology with these last two paragraphs setting yourself up as a prophet. This 'embrace your pneuma' stuff has really gotten out of hand.

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If I were to draw a small curved line on a piece of paper, have I drawn a concave one or a convex line?

Neither. It is an arc.

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Indeed, to say that something exists as fact, is to take position of it being EITHER concave line, or the convex, when in reality, they are only concepts and exist dependent of each other, what I drew is not factually one thing or another in reality, its factually one thing or another only within the confines of the relative concept used to express it.

No. You are twisting the words that you said were supposed to express the truth. You gave two incorrect words for choices. I chose neither thus I am an a-'curved-linist'.

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Conscious expression can not contain truth, in any shape or form, unless it dismisses itself as well, for example, a factual statement can be "I am typing on the computer, and I am not typing on the computer." Now, if this were a "reality" assessment, first of all, I would have to find out who this I is, what the concept of "am" is, the concept of "typing", and how one can do it on a computer and so on. To be rational, is to explore each and every little word and see to it the depths of its meanings, not to see a single phrase and to dismiss all its authority based on your blind refusal to embrace any other thought outside of your own.

Or reality for that matter right? To be rational is not to be loose-minded and buy into one person's concept of their personal god that they claim you just can't see.

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This is not self-authority, this is blind authority to the ego of ones self, which usually is dependent upon an indoctrinating higher truth such as what you guys do with science.

Or what you do with your own flakey bull excrement? You're denigrating science while at the same time using it to spread your garbage of being your own personal jesus. Has anyone indoctrinated you into using your computer? Has anyone indoctrinated you into better health?

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Another thing that Science is short of doing as addressing the deeper side of the universe, it is not a space-time continuum, it is a space-time-consciousness continuum, and they can do their hypothesis to assess this conjecture, all actions must arise from conscious control, or a conscious host, and all that is is manifest of consciousness, is the perpetuant to even their own theories of flux, and their own laws of thermodynamics, and aerodynamics. Many of you simply cannot see past these laws of science and into the grandness of things.

Do you really mean that we just don't see it your way? I think someone already said this to you.

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Thinking that "consciousness" is existent dependent on the brain is an intensely absurd notion, consciousness isn’t the thoughts in ones brain, its what gives rise to the thoughts in ones brain, as it gives a flower the ability to react to music, or to lean towards the sun, these too are examples of a conscious host, reacting consciously to its conditionings.

phototropism denotes consciousness??? Well great. Nobel Prize here we come.

Oh wait. Too bad that phototropism also causes some plants to die because they don't sense when the heat burns the leaves and they still grow toward the light.

Sorry. My kids and I performed this experiment last year with our terrarium for the anoles. Poor plant never saw it coming. Who would have thought that a 60 Watt incandescent bulb could dry out leaves in the matter of a few hours and the plant would still grow toward the light.

Almost an analogy for religious belief. Go toward the light of truth and GET YOURSELF BURNT!

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To become aware of these realities is to see the Garden of Eden, to see the reality of no reality, is to become "one with god", but becoming "one with god" is not any more then becoming one with reality, and all of its conditionings, and all of its environments.

Wow. lol. The 'reality of no reality'. I think I saw that once, but I was under the influence of some really good dust. It was like coming out of a haze to see myself sitting in the mall in South Bend. I walked out to the car and saw that I had a brand new tire on the left front and a full tank of gas. Being tired, I realized that my reality was that I needed to go home and sleep. Of course, the friends that I left at the mall were decidedly upset. I didn't care because my truth was irrespective of theirs.

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Right now, most Christians are under the toxic effects of the Fruit of Knowledge, because "knowledge" is tangible, knowledge is bondage, knowledge exists in no plane of reality, knowledge exists in the conceptions of reality, nothing more - and to believe that a concept can hold high truth over reality is disgustingly short-sighted, and is exemplary of a person who is deeply afflicted by the toxins of the Fruit of Knowledge.

Including this concept of yours?

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Once your, as some masters have said "intellect commits suicide" you remove the toxicity of the fruit. This is not to forget and leave behind the "knowledge" you have thus attained, this is to see the cause and effect to all the knowledge one has attained, and to see deeper beyond the concepts. This is the transformation of turning knowledge into wisdom.

Ahh yes. I just remembered why I didn't like Buddhism.

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Knowledge is not power

Knowledge is bondage

Wisdom is freedom,

Wisdom is power, because its power over ones self, through ones self.

Liquor before beer, you're in the clear

Beer before liquor, you're way more sicker.

OH. And she isn't really 29 years old.

There's some wisdom. Or knowledge. Hmm.

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This is the practice of the perfection of wisdom, the wisdom of nothingness, or the parallel to Christianity, Christ’s expressions of "the eyes of a child".

This is the effect of drugs, kids. Doing drugs hurts your immunity to the mind virus known as theism.

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Seeing into this, however, one must transcend their own fear of death, many of you may boldly say that "pshhh, I don’t fear death", but with deeper introspection, you just may find that you do. How many have even thought of it? For once in your life, you may truly be completely alone, or you simply cease to be. How many have tried to wrap their heads around it? How many of you really looked that deeply into the phenomenology of life and death? If you look deep into yourself, you will find all that you are, and all that you have been, and all that you can be, when you see through your self to death, you have conquered your self, through conquering death. Once you have mastered death, all things hidden from your understanding will now become manifest, all that has been foreign to you will then become understood by you. But if you cannot see into your selves what it is that so drives you to do something like this, which is in honest and good intentions I have seen, then how can you help others when you cannot help your selves?

This is just plain harmful. Telling people not to fear death. Darn it. Why do we let medical bills pile up on the old theists then? Why do they spend money on those handy dandy life-alert things that they wear right next to their crosses on their necks? Why do they put their medical bracelets on right next to their WWJD bracelets that their grandkids gave them?

No rational individual wants to die or is comfortable with death in my opinion. I will grant that there are people who have a 'quality of life' that if they can't meet then they would rather die, but that is their own choice, not some 'transcendent' consciousness bull.

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Religion is not a cool club that you take a part in, it is not a place where people do what they are told to run a business, its about honesty, integrity, and the pursuit of wisdom, the only true knowing, is in dismissing knowledge, and embracing wisdom.

Try being the kid that doesn't want to join the club and see how many people treat you badly.

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How can religion do this when they demand their own authority? It cant, an organized religion that imposes authoritative doctrine over its followers, only dismisses itself as a religion, and instead becomes a cult-like following with figureheads manipulating their people like puppets - their dogma isn’t religious practice, their dogma is political practice, a broad scope of selfish practice.

And pray tell who is the authority that grants you this wonderful human wisdom? Are you not demanding your own authority?

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every time you say "all religions are hocus pocus" or "mythological" or "absurd" or whatever other degrading labels you give it, you do not do anything but to make yourselves look foolish, narrow minded, and short sighted.

So says you.

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I am telling you this not out of condescent, but I am telling you this so you can perhaps see the errors in your ways, and realize that you cannot fight fire with fire, but you must fight it with water.

Unless it is a grease fire or electrical fire and then using water is the worst thing for you. That's science, baby.

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Do not attack a person for believing in god, if they believe in god, ask them "why?" and seek first to understand them, before you are quick to jump down them with your own self proclaimed "better" understanding.

You need to read more than write. BTW, I will attack the beliefs if they are deluded.

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There are very many sound reasons to believe in "god", by all the definitions expressed world wide, but you know that divisiveness that Dawkins was bitching about?

Umm. Do you know what Dawkins was talking about? is my question.

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What do you think you’re doing when you divide the entire world into two groups, people who do and don’t believe in god?

Ummm. They are still people. Why can't that be enough? OHHHH YEAH. Because their beliefs tell them not to like us. I forgot for a second.

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If you ask many Buddhists, you may get the response that they both do, and they don’t, or they will ask you back "I don’t know, do I?", this is not their absurd mysticism, this is them looking into deeper truths then the typical superficial Kingdom of Americana.

Where's that? Oh Sorry. You'd have to use a map made by science in order to tell me.

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Instead, I submit to you that change the word "god" to "hell", and first attack the book of revelations, this is addressing the very source of the problems, and not dabbling its head in the superficial differences.

Change words? One book? Why? Those alleged superficial differences are clung to by people which is why there are over 33,830 denominations in the christian church alone. That is the most asinine thing you have posted here.

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I do believe in god, and I don’t believe in god.

Then you are obviously too confused to offer me any sort of insight.

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If an atheist asked me if I believed in god, I would not, but if a theist asked me if I believed in god, I would, because that is the essential importance to find common ground, not to be dabbled in the superficialities of the concept, but to embrace all for their own beliefs and concepts.

Actually, it makes you a liar in both instances. right?

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So long as you maintain this kind of behavior, and by that I mean your militant refusal of all concepts of "god" - you are not a part of the solution, you are part of the problem;

MILITANT???? You have no idea of what the word means and you aren't expressing truth with it at all.

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you have gained a decent following, if it can so be called,

OR they are affiliated with the RRS by choice and not because someone said they had to. DUH!!!!

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but you are leading them on a path of self destruction with "Does God Exist" being your staple argument. If you change this whole movement to focusing on simply the book of revelations and its own incongruence with the message of Christ, you will be successful beyond your imagination.

No. It becomes cafeteria christians against other christians against muslims against jews against .....

Do you understand the divisive nature of religion yet?

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To me, practicing religion, is practicing mind, a Buddhist monk was once asked "If you could define Buddhism into two words, what would they be?" and the monk responded with "Practice mindfulness". Where, truly, is the absurdity in this? To become mindful and practice ones own mind is "supernatural" and pixie dust in the sky?

HMMMM. Two words = Funny clothes

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I tell you this because many of you had been up to know falsely lead by an idiot. Richard Dawkins may see and know a lot of the universe, but he doesn’t have the balls to see past himself, and he is a being of darkness that casts more darkness.

LMAO. You're not the only one to call Prof. Dawkins the anti-christ. Sorry, Buddha, but you really need to sober up.

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I commend him for giving the community atheists a feeling of empowerment, but his reverse condemnation is his own undoing, and he is what I would call a hypocrite. Does this mean I disagree with everything he says? No, of course not, I agree with a lot of, if not most of what he says, but some of his most empowering words to you guys are words of reverse condemnation, hes leading a cult-like following by creating his divisive reality and implanting it into our culture. He says “Religion is divisive”, but he categorizes all of the world into those who do believe in god and those who don’t, so who the flying fuck is he to talk about divisiveness,

He also says those people are people, dumbass. The stupid fucking beliefs are the motherfucking problem. Dammit. READ more of the site and you'll see that the vast majority of atheists on here LOVE HUMANITY and DESPISE THEISM. I know. That was just a feeble attempt at helping you gain great wisdom because you cannot transcend your belief to see reality that is reality.

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a great teacher once said that “A person must take the timber out of their own eye before they can see clearly enough to remove the sliver in others”,

OH and another great teacher said, "Go slower or you'll cum too quickly!" Actually, she was a better teacher than the guy you're misquoting.

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Dawkins has a very deep intellect but it still cannot see past his own ego – and thus his ego grows and is spread in the contexts of his divisive books.

Didn't you just talk about timbers and slivers?

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He is not the authority over you, he does not know better then anybody else, take authority over your self, and look into everything with self-honesty, and serious inquiry, and stop taking sides and picking superficial battles that only increase the problem in America.

Like you are? Gimme a break. Timbers and slivers remember?

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With the way things are headed a civil war is likely to be the result, quite literally, these superficial differences seem calm and relaxed now, but give it 20 years of continued hatred, and conditions will have made themselves significantly worse. Right now youre just shouting across the room "No! You guys are wrong! Were the right ones!" and they say "Fuck you assholes, weve got christ bitches, he'll dominate your ass, gods on our side", and then you say "fuck you truth is on our side bitches! We'll fucking kill you!". do you see the absurdity in this?

Yes. It is absurd. You're right about that. There are LAWS to prevent this from happening. Here's a question: Have laws gotten more strict or more lenient with regard to violent crime in America? How many atheist moms have killed their children in the past few years? How many non-religious wives have killed their non-religious husbands in the past few years?

Timbers and slivers.

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I have said really all that can be said to you guys, if you continue to refuse to see your own undoings, then I cannot help you save your selves. You so boldly go by the name "free thinker", so use your free thinking.

I have.

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and congratulations to anybody whom actually read any and especially all of that.

I promised myself that I would respond. Sometimes, I need to remember that I can break that promise to myself.

Yeah. That's right. I don't have an obligation to the site. The site doesn't have an obligation to me. Shucks. There goes that little piece of the whole thing right there.

My personal obligation is to my fellow human beings. If I see someone that has these same type of delusions about consciousness and jesus and science then I am obligated to myself to do whatever I am able to do in order to help the person and destroy the stupid ass beliefs that have done exactly what you have preached here in this post...

hidden reality.

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Giant Moth
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Anbesol wrote: I do not

Anbesol wrote:

I do not think I am better then any of you, but I do believe that I see more clearly in the regards to religion.   

I'm sorry, this is where I stoped reading seriously. I deem your entire point false on the basis that any muslim, buddhist or hindu will disagree on your supposed "better view"

Residential Swedish Moth


Brian37
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Anbesol wrote: "In fact

Anbesol wrote:

"In fact when I first brought up the rigor mortis issue, you said, "That is the beuty of it, it only happened to him which makes it so special","

No you didnt bring rigor mortis up, I did. You responded to it with jibberish.

And if it was ony about his "words" and you never believed in the hocus pocus of his alleged death, why did you post at lenght about the "witnesses"?

I think the reason that you wont admit that you truely believed that he survived rigor mortis, and are now denying it, is because you are embarrassed that you once baught that. We do understand, many here can attest to being embarrased that we too once believed absurd things.

And once again, "Jesus was way ahead of his time"

Is the same to us as, "Muhammad was way ahead of his time"

Is the same as "Socrates was way ahead of his time"

Weither or not any of these people could be have proven to have existed, no matter how "impressive" their illistrations might be to some, none of these people no matter how much people like or dislike them, justifies belief in hocus pocus.

You say you like his stories. Again, so what? There are tons of people throughout human history where humans like their examples.

I myself love Thomas Jefferson, but I also dont see him as a god. He had alot of great ideas and helped create this nation, but he also owned slaves and had sex outside marriage.

Dont idolize people, or books or political parties  or deities. You set yourself up to be a lemming and once you do that you set yourself up to harm yourself and the society around you.


 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37
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Ambisol, Here is

Ambisol,

Here is phycologically why you are behaiving the way are here weither you realize it or not.

Religion has been the majority in human history. You have been bombarded throughout life so much that "some sort of belief good, atheism, bad. All religions sell this idea. The fact that you claim a "personal" relationship is merely your own sect of prior claims of religious stories. If you never heard in your life the word "Jesus" how likely would it be that you could buy something you never heard of.

You are resisting examining your beliefs because of fear.

You see us as Darth Vader saying, "Join the dark side" because that is what you have been sold. That is why you precieve yourself as Luke Skywalker, "You are family Darth, I know you dont mean to be evil, please let me help you"

Your problem is assuming we are doing something bad.

I dont think education, or discarding old mytholgy is a bad thing. What people once thought was good for them, might not be.

It is not good, in any case, wheither or not you ever change your mind, for you to continually torture yourself trying to "save" us when we didnt ask you to.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Anbesol
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Brian37 wrote:

Brian37 wrote:
Anbesol wrote:

"In fact when I first brought up the rigor mortis issue, you said, "That is the beuty of it, it only happened to him which makes it so special","

No you didnt bring rigor mortis up, I did. You responded to it with jibberish.

And if it was ony about his "words" and you never believed in the hocus pocus of his alleged death, why did you post at lenght about the "witnesses"?

I think the reason that you wont admit that you truely believed that he survived rigor mortis, and are now denying it, is because you are embarrassed that you once baught that. We do understand, many here can attest to being embarrased that we too once believed absurd things.

And once again, "Jesus was way ahead of his time"

Is the same to us as, "Muhammad was way ahead of his time"

Is the same as "Socrates was way ahead of his time"

Weither or not any of these people could be have proven to have existed, no matter how "impressive" their illistrations might be to some, none of these people no matter how much people like or dislike them, justifies belief in hocus pocus.

You say you like his stories. Again, so what? There are tons of people throughout human history where humans like their examples.

I myself love Thomas Jefferson, but I also dont see him as a god. He had alot of great ideas and helped create this nation, but he also owned slaves and had sex outside marriage.

Dont idolize people, or books or political parties or deities. You set yourself up to be a lemming and once you do that you set yourself up to harm yourself and the society around you.


 

look - idiot, I never ever once, in my entire life, believed that Jesus, the 3 day corpse, survived rigor mortis. Point to me exactly where i said that. But oh, I didnt.

You guys are all idiots - it makes no fucking difference wether one believes in god or one doesnt - you dont even see that - you just segregate people based on wether they do or dont, and everybody has a different definition. I came in here going against the grain of your sheepish conformity and I was called a heretic. Most of you guys may have the capacity for intelligence, but you have the ambition of a spoilt child, you dont even want to learn. It is worthless wasting my time here... How can I help you when you cannot help yourselves.

 

and brian - point to exactly where it was I said that, and I will give you $100. because i didnt, just admit you were an asshole and you acted out of your own prejudicial preconceptions, just admit it - just admit that youre a cocksucker that equates all god-believers into jesus fairy tale believers. Brian, I sure hope you arent really 37 in age, because youre awful dumb for someone that old.

 

By the way I do not fear anything, you make all these assumptions about me, you dont have a clue what I believe, you think I just made up a "god" to believe in to save me from death - but you havent heard a single thing i said. Brian37 - you are quite possibly the best example I have seen of a narrow minded, moronic, ego-filtered militant atheist I have ever seen, grow up, quit throwing ideas and preconceptions in me, they werent in me you only put them there you deluded jackass.

 

What about thomas jefferson?  You dont see him as a god?  Well thats fucking swell!  I didnt say jesus was god, did i?  In fact, didnt I say specifically that he was no more or less then anybody else?  That he just had conscious clarity.

 

holy hell you guys are idiots - you work so hard justifying your selves in your own mind, that when outside thought comes in, you do not listen, you just reject it without giving it thought.

 

I do not FOLLOW religion, I LEARNED about and from religion, Mostly from the primary manuscripts OF religion.  But you guys are too fucking ignorant to know anything about what thats about or what its like, to you its all pink unicorns and magic pixie dust, just because you live in a community that treats it like such.  You guys are idiots. and I officially give up on this bag of idiots.  I come to a den of idiots in hopes of showing them how stupid what theyre doing is (staple argument = "does god exist" = dumber then a 2 week old pile of baby shit).


marcusfish
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Anbesol wrote: It is

Anbesol wrote:
It is worthless wasting my time here... How can I help you when you cannot help yourselves.

No one asked for your help or guidance. You are clearly an unstable person, maybe you would be better off trying a task that is less challenging. So you won't go crazy ... like now ... for example. 

 

Quote:
look - idiot...You guys are all idiots......just admit you were an asshole ...just admit that youre a cocksucker ... youre awful dumb for someone that old.

 ... a narrow minded, moronic, ego-filtered militant atheist...you deluded jackass...holy hell you guys are idiots...you guys are too fucking ignorant ...You guys are idiots... bag of idiots... a den of idiots

 


Free Thinking
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projection:  why are

projection:  why are theists so damn obvious about it?


Anbesol
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a free thinker does not

a free thinker does not think in preconceptions, because preconceptions are bondage, just as you have labeled me as being one of an entire community of people - you have only predetermined that not out of the freeness of your own mind, but in bondage to your mind, to your ego.

 

Marcus - if the glove fits - those who suffer are suffering because of their selves.  You guys are suffering, and you are doing it because you do it to your selves.  I can hardly find it in me to have any ounce of respect for a community that doesnt even show their selves respect.  So i stand by my statement that the majority of the morons in this den are indeed idiots.  So long as "does god exist" is the staple argument, you guys will remain idiots.  "Does god exist?" seriously, the questions been fought over for how many millenia now?  Dont you think its time you dumbasses stopped?  You guys realize that throughout history, there has never been a good guys vs bad guys in war, there has been 2 conflicting groups that both simply wanted to hold dominion over truth.  "no MY truth is better then yours!"  I didnt come here to tell you your truths are wrong, I cam here to tell you your preconceptions are wrong, and they are moronic.

 

And I will stop insulting you when the glove stops fitting.  To be honest, a kind word obviously cannot reach a bag of kids, because it has not and it doesnt seem like it ever can.

 

And freethinker - you have no clue what projection is, you have never even understood the concept of it, because it seems that you are doing it right now, dont believe me?  You just called me a theist, and you projected that I am this idea of a theist in your own mind.  You have not judged me for what I said to you, you have judged me for the side you think i was taking.  I did nto take any side, I took all sides, no side is right, no side is wrong.....