"If God can be infinite, then why can't the universe be infinite?"

Ghost of Amityville
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"If God can be infinite, then why can't the universe be infinite?"

This is a quote from Kelly at the "Nightline" debate. Granted, I have not seen the debate in its entirety because I can't find it anywhere in its entirety. There are always some suspicious and distrustful edits. But from what I've seen, I've loved. I enjoyed it immensely.

Anyway, I think I can answer Kelly's question rationally. The theistic concept of a great chasm between Creator and Creation seems to do the trick. There are two very different standards applied each to the theistic idea of "God" and Creation (a.k.a. the universe). To suggest that Creator and Creation each have the equal amount of the quality of infinity is to assume a resemblance between the two that isn't there.

So, if the point is to reassert that the universe is infinite, one can do a better job of it than to compare it to theism's God. And if the point is to debunk the claims made by Cameron and Comfort, then one can't do that by redefining their idea of God for them.

I take pride in being a newb. I'm not all experienced and boring like the normies.


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e303 wrote: LOL a few

e303 wrote:

LOL a few hours of poker and things become unglued around here.

Atheism is irrational as we are all pretty sure we exist and there IS a cause and a process that brought us into being. There must have been a FIRST CAUSE.

LOL..believing something exist without proof of it is the "rational position" LOL!  one question..who caused the first cause?   Woops...does not compute...does not compute.

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Why?

Because if there isn't, then the whole universe is unexplained, and we have violated our Principle of Sufficient Reason for everything.

Far from it!!  We know lots about the universe and we are learning more wild guesses like "god dunnit" isn't knowledge it's the opposite of knowledge, it's faith and it doesn't answer anything...we might as well all sit in a room with our hands over our ears, rocking back and forth yelling... "Praise jesus..praise jesusl!"  Closing our eyes to the possiblities of knowledge by conceding to that which we have no evidence for is... wel... NOT rational (to put it nicely). 

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Side thought... Does everyone understand a thing can exist whether we know it or not? If so what is wrong with the agnostic view?

Yes we do.  Actually not much is wrong with the Agnostic view.  It at least acknowledges to "not know" if god exists exists.  It is a rational position that is only slightly different then Atheism in that they have the same opinion but don't dismiss the idea entirely...I think it's more they hope there is some kind of eternal life and holding out hope makes them feel better...not a bad thing - at least they can understand the possibility of auniverse without a god. 

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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xamination

xamination wrote:
marcusfish wrote:

If I said that there is, as yet, no proof to reasonably suggest that there is extraterrestrial life therefor I do not subscribe to your claim...I would be perfectly reasonable and would be making no claims other than the absense of evidence.

Yes, if you had fully explored the universe and found that no life exists besides our own or that some weird law of physics prevented life from existing elsewhere, then you could assert that we are alone in the universe. But as we are sitting here without putting one foot onto another planet, it would be unwise at this time to make a judgement like that.

NO NO NO NO NO! He is not saying there is no aliens, he is saying he doesn't believe there are based on the evidence..NONE. Its' the same as saying he doesn't know if there is or isnt' because there is not enough information to determine it...> WHY IS THIS HARD TO UNDERSTANT?? <

Sorry, getting a bit baffled here...this is basic loic and english comprehension... I'm not upset at just you, there are thousands of christians that seem unable to understand this same logic.


Quote:
Heres another example:

Imagine I was a police officer and I was called in after a report of the death of someone. I enter the persons house, and find the body of the person lying on the floor, covered in blood. After making sure the person was actually dead, I start to inspect the room. After looking over about 1/20th of the room I find no evidence of anyone else being in the room at the time of the person's death and conclude it was suicide. Was that a fair conclusion?

NO it wasn't - it is fari to say "I don't know - I didn't see enough evidence to make a conclusion" and that's all Atheists are doing!!!!!!!!!!!

 

EDIT: Sorry about the typos...typing fast and playing a video game on my other monitor and getting my butt kicked! Smiling 

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


e303
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xamination wrote:e303 -

xamination wrote:

e303 - Cmon now, you were doing so well, don't try and use the ol' prime mover arguement.

The principle of sufficient reason will breath life into the first cause argument. While some bots will be bots and not compute others will learn parallel is more natural than serial, unless proved otherwise.

For some of us who hold to the idea a god is plausible part of that thought process is to understand we can't understand it as a full concept but we can point to some things that help us take a leap of faith and choose to believe.

In the end God has no need to have been created, since a god prob. exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of a plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist only ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

"I felt in my bones that this universe does not explain itself." ~ C. S. Lewis


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Vorax wrote: NO NO NO NO

Vorax wrote:
NO NO NO NO NO! He is not saying there is no aliens, he is saying he doesn't believe there are based on the evidence..NONE. Its' the same as saying he doesn't know if there is or isnt' because there is not enough information to determine it...> WHY IS THIS HARD TO UNDERSTANT?? <

Thats fine.  But then we are talking about beliefs, not about what is true.  It's fine if he doesn't believe in aliens, as you said, but the key word is believe.  It is based on the faith in that the status quo i.e. there are no aliens we have discovered will stay the same.  

Vorax wrote:
NO it wasn't - it is fari to say "I don't know - I didn't see enough evidence to make a conclusion" and that's all Atheists are doing!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Then would you accept the statement that God is unable to be proven or disproven at this point? 

If so, then the belief that there is no God is just as logical, or illogical, as the belief in one.

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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e303 wrote: xamination

e303 wrote:
xamination wrote:

e303 - Cmon now, you were doing so well, don't try and use the ol' prime mover arguement.

The principle of sufficient reason will breath life into the first cause argument. While some bots will be bots and not compute others will learn parallel is more natural than serial, unless proved otherwise.

The prime mover is a flawed argument because it doesnt' epxlain where the prime mover came from, and that means it explains nothing but the second movement.  It explains only that you have no better argument.

 

Quote:
 

In the end God has no need to have been created, since a god prob. exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of a plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created.

Granted -- some of that makes no sense based on physics, but I'll concede that god if it exists could be eternal. 

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Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist only ~13.7 billion years ago.

You were doing ok but this is incorrect.  The form of the universe we see today came into being around 14 billion years ago.  But the matter  itself may have always existed and been contained within a singularity.  OR time within our universe may have started at that moment, but a higher level multiverse may have been and is eternal.  The big bang does not show either of these possibilities to be any less likely.

 

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The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

Ummm...this is so differnt then the theists expecting us to belive an ultra powerful and knowledgeable being exists out side our universe but didnt' need a creator....im afraid given a simple higher order eternal universe and an all powerful and knowledgable unoriginated god....the universe is the simpler explanation and thus the more likley one.

You will never be able to show that an invisible uncreated complex and powerful entity (god) is more likely then a simple higher order universe or eternal matter...your god makes to many assumptions and begs to many questions that are unanswerable (where did he get his knowledge, how did he get his power?)

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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e303 wrote: xamination

e303 wrote:
xamination wrote:

e303 - Cmon now, you were doing so well, don't try and use the ol' prime mover arguement.

The principle of sufficient reason will breath life into the first cause argument. While some bots will be bots and not compute others will learn parallel is more natural than serial, unless proved otherwise.

For some of us who hold to the idea a god is plausible part of that thought process is to understand we can't understand it as a full concept but we can point to some things that help us take a leap of faith and choose to believe.

In the end God has no need to have been created, since a god prob. exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of a plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist only ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

1. Did you ignore both of the links I put up? They both show how the universe could be eternal.

2. Why is it so hard to concieve an eternal universe? I know its more of an Eastern way of thinking than what normally comes through these boards, but still... The universe could be this - the universe. Everything. Anything that exists exists here. There is no outside, this is all that there is. As I said before, IT IS. Period. So while things may be happening inside of it, it still is. The Big Bang may be the end result of something else that occured in the universe, which prevents us from seeing before "time zero"(notice the quotes). Not testable, to be sure, but valid all the same.

3. If you have the time, read this. It'll take about ten minutes, and its pretty enlightening for a sci-fi short story.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3407/The-Last-Question

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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xamination wrote: Then

xamination wrote:

Then would you accept the statement that God is unable to be proven or disproven at this point?

Yes.

Quote:

If so, then the belief that there is no God is just as logical, or illogical, as the belief in one.

Yes the belief there is no god is illogical and is entirely as irrational as theism. That is called "Strong Atheism" and it makes an unprovable assertion. The default position for most Ahteists (the ones who don't claim to be strong atheists) is called "Weak Atheism" - the position that we have no proof of god and therefore do not beleive in it. I have never known a Strong Atheist.

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


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Then I apologize to you,

Then I apologize to you, Vorax, for wasting your time on this thread.  I actually do know some Strong Atheists and this was directed subconciously towards them.  Thanks for being such a good sport. 

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


e303
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xamination wrote:e303

xamination wrote:
e303 wrote:
xamination wrote:

e303 - Cmon now, you were doing so well, don't try and use the ol' prime mover arguement.

The principle of sufficient reason will breath life into the first cause argument. While some bots will be bots and not compute others will learn parallel is more natural than serial, unless proved otherwise.

For some of us who hold to the idea a god is plausible part of that thought process is to understand we can't understand it as a full concept but we can point to some things that help us take a leap of faith and choose to believe.

In the end God has no need to have been created, since a god prob. exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of a plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist only ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

1. Did you ignore both of the links I put up? They both show how the universe could be eternal.

2. Why is it so hard to concieve an eternal universe? I know its more of an Eastern way of thinking than what normally comes through these boards, but still... The universe could be this - the universe. Everything. Anything that exists exists here. There is no outside, this is all that there is. As I said before, IT IS. Period. So while things may be happening inside of it, it still is. The Big Bang may be the end result of something else that occured in the universe, which prevents us from seeing before "time zero"(notice the quotes). Not testable, to be sure, but valid all the same.

3. If you have the time, read this. It'll take about ten minutes, and its pretty enlightening for a sci-fi short story.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3407/The-Last-Question

I read it and it is interesting.  Still science seems to be pointing pointing to a finite observable universe with finite normal matter that is observationally unbounded.  So I guess infinate due to no ability to see beyond.  It seems everything is moving away from everything else and these things toward the edge will exceed the speed of light and thus our ability to view it.

For a person on faith this is pretty easy to accept. If one accepts the possibility of an infinite God than logically, an infinite god could create a finite universe or God would not be infinite.

This still begs the question of the reson for faith or having a belief in a creator in the firstplace I guess.

Here are a few:
  • Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.
  • Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.
  • Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?
  • The universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?
  • Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard. So, ask yourself if you believe in right and wrong and then ask yourself why. Who gave you your conscience? Why does it exist?
  • People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?

While this does not give us absolute proof of a god one certainly can see why an intelligent person might  lean in that direction. 

"I felt in my bones that this universe does not explain itself." ~ C. S. Lewis


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e303 wrote:

e303 wrote:


* Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.

THey have shown the universe as we know it had a begining (galaxies, stars, etc formed from this begiing) it doesn't show where matter originated.

Quote:

* Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.

Woahh..deep into fiction now. NOTHING has showing "exquisitely deisgned machines" only complex biological structure. "Information requires intelligence" is wrong..ask your computer or a book, or a DNA strand to use their intelligence to explain how they contain information. "design requires a desinger" - no "design" has been shown. Evolution has never been proven wrong with any experiment or fact.

Quote:

* Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?

The fact that we are here is not proof of anything - there could have been a billion billion billion (times infinity...) universes (multiverse theory or recyled universes of bang->crunch->bang-crunch...)... a hundred billion billion trillion years ago there may have been a fully formed unpopulate universe just as there had been for infinity before that. We have no idea how many times the physics of the unvierse have been changed through an infinite number of universes in the past or concurrent universes. Our existence only shows its possible to exist it says nothing about the impossiblity of our existence or the unlikley hood of it. Infact it may be that our univese can't exist any other way. Without an understanding of how we came to be, saying god did it is just god of the gaps ...again.

Quote:

* The universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?

They are likely eternal constructs or some part of them is. Why does the universe need a purpose? Nothing has shown us it does.

Quote:

* Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard. So, ask yourself if you believe in right and wrong and then ask yourself why. Who gave you your conscience? Why does it exist?

Complete bull shit - infact we can see that other social animals have a sense of moral law - working togther helps our survival. Please read my blog post on this subject - http://cerebralthinking.blogspot.com

Quote:
* People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?


Of all those accounts, not a single verifiable peice of evidence has ever resulted. There are millions of people that believe in alien abduction, there are millions of people who have touched god by using mescalin, there are millions of people who feel the government is out to get them, there are millions of people who think walking under ladders is bad luck... Did you know that religious experiences can be created in the lab with electrodes? Did you know that lack of sleep can lead to delusional states? Meditation can cause chemical cahnges in the brain? Minor forms of Epilepsy can cause "god experiences" (research Temporal Lobe Epilepsy TLE)- sheer will to believe something can convince people something is true and real without any actual evidence.

Quote:

While this does not give us absolute proof of a god one certainly can see why an intelligent person might lean in that direction.


No actually I can't.

"All it would take to kill God is one meteorite a half mile across - think about why." - Vorax

Visit my blog on Atheism: Cerebral Thinking for some more food for intelligent thought.


e303
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Vorax wrote: e303

Vorax wrote:

e303 wrote:


* Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.

THey have shown the universe as we know it had a begining (galaxies, stars, etc formed from this begiing) it doesn't show where matter originated.

Quote:

* Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.

Woahh..deep into fiction now. NOTHING has showing "exquisitely deisgned machines" only complex biological structure. "Information requires intelligence" is wrong..ask your computer or a book, or a DNA strand to use their intelligence to explain how they contain information. "design requires a desinger" - no "design" has been shown. Evolution has never been proven wrong with any experiment or fact.

Quote:

* Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?

The fact that we are here is not proof of antyhing - there could have been a billion billion billion (times infinity...) universes (multiverse theory or recyled universes of bang->crunch->bang-crunch...)... a hundred billion billion trillion years ago there may have been a fully formed unpopulate universe just as there had been for infinity before that.  We have no idea how many times the physics of the unvierse have been tuned through an infinite number of universes in the past. Our existence only shows its possible to exist it says nothing about the impossiblity of our existence or the unlikley hood of it.  Infact it may be that our univese can't exist any other way. Without an understanding of how we came to be, saying god did it is just god of the gaps ...again.

Quote:

* The universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?

They are likely eternal constructs or some part of them is. Why does the universe need a purpose? Nothing has shown us it does.

Quote:

* Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard. So, ask yourself if you believe in right and wrong and then ask yourself why. Who gave you your conscience? Why does it exist?

Complete bull shit - infact we can see that other social animals have a sense of moral law - working togther helps our survival. Please read my blog post on this subject - http://cerebralthinking.blogspot.com

Quote:
* People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?


Of all those accounts, not a single verifiable peice of evidence has ever resulted. There are millions of people that believe in alien abduction, there are millions of people who have touched god by using mescalin, there are millions of people who feel the government is out to get them, there are millions of people who think walking under ladders is bad luck... Did you know that religious experiences can be created in the lab with electrodes? Did you know that lack of sleep can lead to delusional states? Meditation can cause chemical cahnges in the brain? Minor forms of Epilepsy can cause "god experiences" (research Temporal Lobe Epilepsy TLE)- sheer will to believe something can convince people something is true and real without any actual evidence.

Quote:

While this does not give us absolute proof of a god one certainly can see why an intelligent person might lean in that direction.


No actually I can't.

LOL - I knew the use of bio-machines would tune you in. Language is a great thing just ask any animal. The description was more or less a tag word like "god gaps" both sound great but are in fact of no real consequence to an argument unless you want to suggest dogmatic reasons in support of the gaps being filled by something you don't have proof of.

Discoveries in astronomy have shown universe as we know it had a beginning (galaxies, stars, etc formed from this beginning) it doesn't show where matter originated. GREAT! A metaphysical something before the big bang perhaps?

Oh I agree natural laws are likely to contain eternal constructs and most of what is constructed of is unknown.

Did you know (Temporal Lobe Epilepsy TLE)- sheer will to believe something can convince people something is true and real or not true and unreal without any actual evidence might also be the reason people claim to be atheist and not simply agnostic?

Animals do cooperate but to claim that any living thing other than a human has a sense of justice is simply wrong.

You have no basis outside of your own unverified opinion about any person's eyewitness accounts. Do you have to believe them? No. But you must admit you are just skeptical.

"I felt in my bones that this universe does not explain itself." ~ C. S. Lewis


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e303 wrote: Discoveries in

e303 wrote:
Discoveries in astronomy have shown universe as we know it had a beginning (galaxies, stars, etc formed from this beginning) it doesn't show where matter originated. GREAT! A metaphysical something before the big bang perhaps?

Perhaps.  But it would be easier to say that matter has always existed.  You are having trouble with the concept of an eternal universe, I know, but understand that the Big Bang may not have been the beginning of the universe, but the beginning of the universe as we know it. Imagine, what will happen when our universe "ends"?  There are several different theories out there showing how the universe could basically "restart" and begin anew.  So why couldnt that have ahppened before us?  Now, I know you will say something about there only being a finite ammount of past universes.  Why?  If we look at the universe as a whole, we see something that is eternal, that never ends or begins, something that always is.  Sure, things happen inside it, but the whole is still the same.  Why make up a creating God when in fact, the universe is God?

I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.


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xamination wrote: e303

xamination wrote:

e303 wrote:
Discoveries in astronomy have shown universe as we know it had a beginning (galaxies, stars, etc formed from this beginning) it doesn't show where matter originated. GREAT! A metaphysical something before the big bang perhaps?

Perhaps.  But it would be easier to say that matter has always existed.  You are having trouble with the concept of an eternal universe, I know, but understand that the Big Bang may not have been the beginning of the universe, but the beginning of the universe as we know it. Imagine, what will happen when our universe "ends"?  There are several different theories out there showing how the universe could basically "restart" and begin anew.  So why couldnt that have ahppened before us?  Now, I know you will say something about there only being a finite ammount of past universes.  Why?  If we look at the universe as a whole, we see something that is eternal, that never ends or begins, something that always is.  Sure, things happen inside it, but the whole is still the same.  Why make up a creating God when in fact, the universe is God?

I actually subscribe to the theories that suggest dark matter and and dark energy were around before the big bang. The we will in the end have a big rip and the only thing left is dark matter and energy. I will post supporting links about this later.

"I felt in my bones that this universe does not explain itself." ~ C. S. Lewis


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humm... i dunno if i can

humm... i dunno if i can add anything rational to this but i can throw in an idea.

what if time is an illusion only perceived by matter?

May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.