A hopeful letter...

HowietheChristian
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A hopeful letter...

I’ve decided to write this letter as a way to share with you something I truly trust in.

If you were to trust in something, like a parachute for example, you would be sure to do a few things carefully. When getting onto an airplane imagine the flight attendant greeted you and told you that once the plane reaches 30,000 feet everyone on board would be required to jump out, so find your parachute and put it on. The first thing you would do is go to your seat, find the parachute and put it on, right? Now if you truly believed the flight attendant you would have followed the directions exactly in putting on the parachute, and you would leave it on for the rest of your flight because you know there is a jump to come later.

What if you didn’t believe the attendant? Well you might not put the parachute on at all! Or, maybe you would put it on, but take it off later reasoning in your head that you wouldn’t have to jump? By now you might have imagined what would happen if you jumped from an airplane from 30,000 feet without a parachute. You’d fall straight down and then go splat! But if you had the parachute on you would land safely on the ground, unharmed.

Now imagine this illustration of the parachute and airplane flight are representing your life. Think of it like this... the airplane flight is your life and the fact is everyone dies, one day. So the jump at 30,000 feet represents when you die. And imagine that the flight attendant is God, warning you that you would certainly die, one day, but if you put the parachute on you will live. Do you know what the parachute represents? Its Jesus, and if you trusted God you would “put Jesus on” in the same way you would trust a parachute.

I think a good many of you have heard about Jesus. He is the Son of God. He is Perfect. And He Died and came back to life for the payment of your sins, right? A lot of people have heard that before. In fact, many people have been baptized in Jesus name, or asked Jesus into their heart, or have worked in Jesus name. But according to the bible those things will not save you. Here is our problem...Since the fall of mankind (Adam and Eve’s first disobeying of God) each person is born in a sinful state. Each person has disobeyed God. This is something we can not deny. To think that you have obeyed God is to say you are a “good person” in Gods eyes. Think about this. Gods standard of Goodness is the Ten Commandments, which is the moral law in the bible. Ask yourself the following...about 4 of the Ten Commandments.

1) You shall not take God’s name in vain. (Have you ever used God’s holy Name as a cuss word or to show disgust?)

2) You shall not steal. (Have you ever stolen anything? — the value of the item is irrelevant.) (pens and pencils count)

3)You shall not murder. (God considers hatred to be as murder. Have you ever hated anyone?)

4)You shall not commit adultery. (“Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart” — Matthew 5:27-28 ; this also includes sex before marriage).

I’ve broken each of these and I have not met anyone else who has not. The Bible says that God will punish all murderers, rapists, thieves, liars, adulterers, etc. He will even judge our words and thoughts. On Judgment Day, will you be found to be guilty or innocent of breaking His commandments?

This isn’t easy to think about because there are certain absolutes in life that we can not escape.
ONE, is that we all have sinned. The bible even says this. (Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”)

TWO, is that God set punishment for sin. (Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord.”) this last verse says “WAGES”. Wages are what we earn so what this means is that we earn death by our sin. And the verse says “GIFT” of eternal life. A Gift is something you can’t earn and God will give the GIFT of eternal life, but only through Jesus.

THREE, there is only one way to escape the Punishment for our sin. (John 14:6 “JESUS answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.") now look back at the bold words in that last verse. JESUS is speaking, He says “NO ONE” meaning all people and then “except through ME” Jesus has said many times and this is one of them, that HE is the only way. Not Baptism, or doing good things.

The bible calls “doing good things” and “baptism” and even “obeying the commandments” WORKS. I could give you a whole list of verses from the bible that all say works will not save you. To save time, here is my favorite: (Romans 3:20 “because by the WORKS of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”) This means WORKS will not “make you right” in Gods sight.

I hope that the picture I’m trying to create is becoming clear to you. All that the bible teaches is that we’re all guilty before God and nothing we do can help us or save us from His wrath. God knows we are helpless in this situation so yes He did pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus lived perfectly so that his death, His blood would be worthy as the payment of our sins. But Jesus did come back to life and conquered death. We deserve death for our disobedience to God. Don’t think for a minute that your good deeds out weigh the bad deeds you’ve done. Can you imagine standing before a human judge trying to reason with him in this way. Imagine you were caught driving the wrong way down a one way street, and its the first time you ever did that. So you tell the judge about all the years you’ve been driving that you’ve mostly gone the right way down one way streets. But only this one time you slipped up, should he just let you go? Well maybe a human judge will just let you slip on this one, but God is the perfect judge and He won’t let anyone slip by. The bible says God is Just. And He is a Just Judge who will make sure all who have sinned, which is disobeying His Commands, are punished. God promised to punish all who disobey Him and if He didn’t keep his promise He would be a liar, but that would never be!

Do you remember my airplane story and jumping at 30,000 feet? What if your time was up now? What if you jumped right now? What if you stood in Judgement before God today, will you be innocent or guilty? Will you Go to Heaven or Hell?

If your honest with yourself you’d answer hell. If your honest with yourself you’d admit to guilt before God. So if you are being honest read on....if your trusting in Baptism or Works or anything read on.

God appointed to man to Die once and then the judgement. No one lives on earth forever, everyone takes their jump, one day.

Do you see how you look in Gods eyes. God is sooo... perfect and right, which is righteous, that He is light. In your current condition you look black with sin and are evil by comparison. In fact, you are separated from God because He is so Holy and Righteous but you are sinful. The only way to be right with God is not earned by Works, following His commandments from now on, or asking Jesus into your heart, or accepting Jesus. Who are we to accept Jesus as if we decide if He is Good enough. And nowhere in the bible does it say to ask Jesus into your heart.

God Himself made a way where His justice and His goodness could meet. We broke the Law, but He became a man to pay the fine. Jesus suffered and died on the cross to satisfy the Law. God can forgive us and grant us the gift of everlasting life!

The Bible says, “For by grace are you saved through faith , and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” You cannot earn a gift.

Jesus was here on Earth. His first command was and is to Repent. Turn from your sins and do them no more. You must be righteous to enter heaven and you can not earn your own righteousness. You must trust in Jesus and the Righteousness of Jesus will be credited to you. Instead of your sin God will see the Righteousness of His Own Son Jesus Christ.

When Jesus said to “believe” on Him, He was saying we should have faith in Him, in the same way you would trust a parachute to save you when you jump from a plane. You don’t merely believe in the parachute - you put it on.

Please don’t “jump” without Jesus. If you die in your sins there is no second chance. God will give you justice, and you will end up in Hell forever. Any troubles you have at present are dwarfed by the trouble you are in with your Creator. His wrath abides upon you ( John 3:36 ).

God doesn’t want you to go to Hell. Neither do you want to go there, so confess your sins to God right now, put your trust in Jesus to save you, and you will pass from death to life.

Then read the Bible daily and obey what you read. (See John 14:21 ). Your obedience to God is the proof of your love. Have faith in God, He will never fail you.

Say something like this to God (it’s not the prayer that saves you, but your trust in Jesus alone):

“Dear God, today I turn away from all of my sins (name them). This day I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He is the only way for me to be saved. He is ‘The way, the truth, and the life.’ Please forgive me, change my heart, and grant me Your gift of everlasting life. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen.”

If you decided to trust in Jesus, let me know. We can talk about it, and I will be glad.

I’m not asking you to believe me. But believe the scriptures in the bible. If sometime in the past you made a decision for God but did not become obedient to Him there is a good chance you were not saved.

HowietheChristian


melchisedec
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Howie, Why should I believe

Howie,

Why should I believe the bible? In other words, how can I know its inspired by God?


Insidium Profundis
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God allows people to be born

God allows people to be born into this world without having any choice in their circumstances of birth or genetics. Furthermore, he issued an archaic set of commandments that, if they were dictated by any person, we would consider cruel and stupid. Furthermore, he punishes people for all eternity for finite crimes. Just? Good? No, he is an egocentric bully. By condemning one single person to hell, god commits more evil than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined. After all, when you could up all the millions of deaths they caused, that number is still finite. The tortures of hell even for a single person are infinite.

Furthermore, have you considered just how nonsensical Jesus' sacrifice was? Pay attention: God killed himself on the cross to save his creation from his own wrath. Utterly ridiculous.

If I was charged with murder, but offered for the court to sacrifice an innocent child, would that be just? Of course not.

Anyway, the case for Christianity is pathetically weak, which is why even the threat of eternal torture does not worry me in the least.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


HowietheChristian
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Reply to Insidium Profundis

So the commandment not to steal is cruel and stupid? How about not to murder, is the commandment saying not to do that stupid? or cruel?

the quote at the bottom of your post

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."

So who's mind is unopen about God? Mine or yours?


melchisedec
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Howie, Could you please

Howie,

Could you please answer my question, its pretty important to me.


jcgadfly
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HowietheChristian wrote:So

HowietheChristian wrote:
So the commandment not to steal is cruel and stupid? How about not to murder, is the commandment saying not to do that stupid? or cruel?

the quote at the bottom of your post

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."

So who's mind is unopen about God? Mine or yours?

Those commandments aren't stupid. They are also not original.

Civilized societies had these laws before the God of the OT was even thought up.

The stupid part is the claim that a God thought them up originally and gave them to people. The cruel part is that this same God punishes people eternally (according to the literature) for breaking these laws that he doesn't feel obligated to follow.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


HowietheChristian
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It says in the bible God

It says in the bible God wrote these laws on our heart (our conscience) so we know right from wrong. It also said God created man and woman so think that over......


jcgadfly
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HowietheChristian wrote:It

HowietheChristian wrote:
It says in the bible God wrote these laws on our heart (our conscience) so we know right from wrong. It also said God created man and woman so think that over......

Now we wander into circular reasoning.

The Bible is right because God says so and God is right because the Bible says so.

We know right from wrong because we were taught that way. If God had anything at all to do with it we would have a God awareness from birth (you may have come from the womb singing and praising Yahweh and the others you currently worship but practically everyone else didn't).

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Voided
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HowietheChristian

HowietheChristian wrote:
I’ve decided to write this letter as a way to share with you something I truly trust in.

Honestly getting me to trust something is going to be a hard thing to do. I don't trust in much of anything and I think that’s a good thing to have in this world.

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If you were to trust in something, like a parachute for example, you would be sure to do a few things carefully. When getting onto an airplane imagine the flight attendant greeted you and told you that once the plane reaches 30,000 feet everyone on board would be required to jump out, so find your parachute and put it on. The first thing you would do is go to your seat, find the parachute and put it on, right? Now if you truly believed the flight attendant you would have followed the directions exactly in putting on the parachute, and you would leave it on for the rest of your flight because you know there is a jump to come later.

First I'm probably not going to pay for a ticket that is going to make me jump unless I want to jump. Second I don't trust for a parachute to always work 100% of the time. Third I can test parachutes and see if they work. Hopefully not at the expense of others, but I can watch the ones who have tried it.

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What if you didn’t believe the attendant? Well you might not put the parachute on at all! Or, maybe you would put it on, but take it off later reasoning in your head that you wouldn’t have to jump? By now you might have imagined what would happen if you jumped from an airplane from 30,000 feet without a parachute. You’d fall straight down and then go splat! But if you had the parachute on you would land safely on the ground, unharmed.

This is a bad pascal's wager analogy...

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Now imagine this illustration of the parachute and airplane flight are representing your life. Think of it like this... the airplane flight is your life and the fact is everyone dies, one day. So the jump at 30,000 feet represents when you die. And imagine that the flight attendant is God, warning you that you would certainly die, one day, but if you put the parachute on you will live. Do you know what the parachute represents? Its Jesus, and if you trusted God you would “put Jesus on” in the same way you would trust a parachute.

Yup pascal's wager... BTW the parachute works if you trust it or not, but belief needs actual belief.

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I think a good many of you have heard about Jesus. He is the Son of God. He is Perfect. And He Died and came back to life for the payment of your sins, right?

Some people think that, but I've heard of a lot of different ideas of jesus. Also it might be nice to see a bit of proof jesus existed. Proof does not necessarily need be "hard" evidence, but you should be able to get to the same level as other historical figures.

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A lot of people have heard that before. In fact, many people have been baptized in Jesus name, or asked Jesus into their heart, or have worked in Jesus name.

Well I've been baptized. I don't remember it because I was a baby, but it was in a christian church so I'm pretty sure jesus was in there somewhere.

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But according to the bible those things will not save you.

Well I've heard that isn't the case, but it isn't like this is the only thing christians disagree about Eye-wink

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Here is our problem...Since the fall of mankind (Adam and Eve’s first disobeying of God) each person is born in a sinful state. Each person has disobeyed God.

Well god, if all knowing, would have been responsible if it could do something about...

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This is something we can not deny.

Well I do, in fact I don't even think your idea of god can logically exist.

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To think that you have obeyed God is to say you are a “good person” in Gods eyes.

First you have to prove a god exists, then your god, then what your god says.

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Think about this. Gods standard of Goodness is the Ten Commandments, which is the moral law in the bible.

Too bad there are more then that and God doesn't follow many...

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Ask yourself the following...about 4 of the Ten Commandments.

ok, but I've seen this stuff before...

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1) You shall not take God’s name in vain. (Have you ever used God’s holy Name as a cuss word or to show disgust?)

All the god time.

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2) You shall not steal. (Have you ever stolen anything? — the value of the item is irrelevant.) (pens and pencils count)

Not in a planed way, but I have things that I did not buy and did not return. (no shop lifting or things from houses or people for thrill or wealth)

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3)You shall not murder. (God considers hatred to be as murder. Have you ever hated anyone?)

Interesting Hate=Murder. I'd like to see where it says that or is according to your idea of god.

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4)You shall not commit adultery. (“Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart” — Matthew 5:27-28 ; this also includes sex before marriage).

Wow you want us to stop being human? Also there is a difference between thinking about having hot steamy sex and having hot steamy sex.

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I’ve broken each of these and I have not met anyone else who has not. The Bible says that God will punish all murderers, rapists, thieves, liars, adulterers, etc.

Interesting everyone needs saving always no way around it. I think all religions seem to say all must follow their way for some reason or another.

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He will even judge our words and thoughts.

God reads my mind?!?! Thats a cool trick!!!

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On Judgment Day, will you be found to be guilty or innocent of breaking His commandments?

Why do you assume I believe in Judgment Day?

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This isn’t easy to think about because there are certain absolutes in life that we can not escape.

Maybe, but it is hard to figure some of those out.

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ONE, is that we all have sinned. The bible even says this. (Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”)

Again, you assume I believe in your bible at all...

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TWO, is that God set punishment for sin. (Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord.”) this last verse says “WAGES”. Wages are what we earn so what this means is that we earn death by our sin. And the verse says “GIFT” of eternal life. A Gift is something you can’t earn and God will give the GIFT of eternal life, but only through Jesus.

You assume there is a god, you know what it wants, what it does, and I believe in the bible. Did you just set up morals based on a punishment and reward system?

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THREE, there is only one way to escape the Punishment for our sin. (John 14:6 “JESUS answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through ME.") now look back at the bold words in that last verse. JESUS is speaking, He says “NO ONE” meaning all people and then “except through ME” Jesus has said many times and this is one of them, that HE is the only way. Not Baptism, or doing good things.

Well I know a guy who thinks the only way to get into heaven is to follow all the teachings of the quran. Your argument is no better then his. Also I don't care about Baptism.

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The bible calls “doing good things” and “baptism” and even “obeying the commandments” WORKS. I could give you a whole list of verses from the bible that all say works will not save you. To save time, here is my favorite: (Romans 3:20 “because by the WORKS of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”) This means WORKS will not “make you right” in Gods sight.

I think you need to re-work things for an atheist. They probably wont accepet the bible as proof for anything... All you are doing here is arguing which version of on religion is better. To get this to the point that an atheist will even concider this a possible solution you must show other key parts are true first. This would includ god's existance and the truth of the bible. Then you can try to get into how we are suppose to read it...

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I hope that the picture I’m trying to create is becoming clear to you.

This is one of the first pictures I saw. Didn't do shit.

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All that the bible teaches is that we’re all guilty before God and nothing we do can help us or save us from His wrath. God knows we are helpless in this situation so yes He did pay the penalty for our sins. Jesus lived perfectly so that his death, His blood would be worthy as the payment of our sins. But Jesus did come back to life and conquered death. We deserve death for our disobedience to God. Don’t think for a minute that your good deeds out weigh the bad deeds you’ve done.

Interesting god messed up so he killed himself to make up for it...

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Can you imagine standing before a human judge trying to reason with him in this way. Imagine you were caught driving the wrong way down a one way street, and its the first time you ever did that. So you tell the judge about all the years you’ve been driving that you’ve mostly gone the right way down one way streets. But only this one time you slipped up, should he just let you go? Well maybe a human judge will just let you slip on this one, but God is the perfect judge and He won’t let anyone slip by.

You first have to show me this kind of thing is possible...

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The bible says God is Just. And He is a Just Judge who will make sure all who have sinned, which is disobeying His Commands, are punished. God promised to punish all who disobey Him and if He didn’t keep his promise He would be a liar, but that would never be!

Be good kids or I'll hurt you?

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Do you remember my airplane story and jumping at 30,000 feet? What if your time was up now? What if you jumped right now? What if you stood in Judgement before God today, will you be innocent or guilty? Will you Go to Heaven or Hell?

Well if you want to talk about the bible isn't sucied aginst something anyway?

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If your honest with yourself you’d answer hell. If your honest with yourself you’d admit to guilt before God. So if you are being honest read on....if your trusting in Baptism or Works or anything read on.

Still don't trust in any of that junk, but I'm a tough nut to crack. You know with knowledge, logic, and such.

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God appointed to man to Die once and then the judgement. No one lives on earth forever, everyone takes their jump, one day.

Everyone jumps out of a plane? Oh wait, you want me to assume there is a heaven and hell so I'll follow your rules. Um no it doesn't work that way.

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Do you see how you look in Gods eyes. God is sooo... perfect and right, which is righteous, that He is light. In your current condition you look black with sin and are evil by comparison. In fact, you are separated from God because He is so Holy and Righteous but you are sinful. The only way to be right with God is not earned by Works, following His commandments from now on, or asking Jesus into your heart, or accepting Jesus.

Didn't you just say awhile back good works don't really matter?

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Who are we to accept Jesus as if we decide if He is Good enough. And nowhere in the bible does it say to ask Jesus into your heart.

Then why are you saying to ask it no more then three sentences before this one?!?!

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God Himself made a way where His justice and His goodness could meet. We broke the Law, but He became a man to pay the fine. Jesus suffered and died on the cross to satisfy the Law. God can forgive us and grant us the gift of everlasting life!

Still seems silly, even if I accept all that other stuff, because you are saying for god to forgive us, the way he made us, we must pray to his god like son which was the only way he could fix things he created in the first place...

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The Bible says, “For by grace are you saved through faith , and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” You cannot earn a gift.

What the gift? Toys? Chocolates? The thought that counts? Also you haven't prove much out of the bible except it says some stuff...

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Jesus was here on Earth.

Agian I would like to see some proof.

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His first command was and is to Repent. Turn from your sins and do them no more. You must be righteous to enter heaven and you can not earn your own righteousness. You must trust in Jesus and the Righteousness of Jesus will be credited to you. Instead of your sin God will see the Righteousness of His Own Son Jesus Christ.

I think that whole self declared holy thing was nothing but then assumptions...

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When Jesus said to “believe” on Him, He was saying we should have faith in Him, in the same way you would trust a parachute to save you when you jump from a plane. You don’t merely believe in the parachute - you put it on.

Faith is bunk.

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Please don’t “jump” without Jesus. If you die in your sins there is no second chance. God will give you justice, and you will end up in Hell forever. Any troubles you have at present are dwarfed by the trouble you are in with your Creator. His wrath abides upon you ( John 3:36 ).

Well I guess I'm a little mean when I played The Sims so I guess god would be an evil overlord screwing with anything and everything he wanted...

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God doesn’t want you to go to Hell. Neither do you want to go there, so confess your sins to God right now, put your trust in Jesus to save you, and you will pass from death to life.

You know if he didn't want us to go their wasn't it silly of him to create the place and the situations that get us there?

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Then read the Bible daily and obey what you read. (See John 14:21 ). Your obedience to God is the proof of your love. Have faith in God, He will never fail you.

Oh I've read enough. I read more every once and awhile when get throw a verse, but I read it like santa stories by Stephen King.

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Say something like this to God (it’s not the prayer that saves you, but your trust in Jesus alone):

“Dear God, today I turn away from all of my sins (name them). This day I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He is the only way for me to be saved. He is ‘The way, the truth, and the life.’ Please forgive me, change my heart, and grant me Your gift of everlasting life. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen.”


Well I have blasphemed against the holy spirt so I can't be saved, but I guess I could try. Also is god suppose to talk back during this? I hear a lot of people talk to him, but the few that get a response end up doing crazy shit. I don't really want to do crazy shit. Is their a way to put a do not return to sender kind of thing on this?

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If you decided to trust in Jesus, let me know. We can talk about it, and I will be glad.

That might be hard to do here...

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I’m not asking you to believe me. But believe the scriptures in the bible. If sometime in the past you made a decision for God but did not become obedient to Him there is a good chance you were not saved.

Um yes you are asking us to believe you. You did it A LOT.


MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)
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Do xtians have to focus so

Do xtians have to focus so much on death all the frikkin time? Try focusing on living your one life that you have right now.


HowietheChristian
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melchisdec, Sorry, I'm

melchisdec,

Sorry, I'm working on other things while posting and responding to folks on this site...

you can know for a few reasons God Inspired the bible, one: God says it is, however I wouldn't expect folks who don't believe in God to just believe that.

two: dispite all the claims it contradicts itself, it does not. The bible also makes the claim those who do not believe in faith first, by trusting in Jesus and repenting will not understand the simple things of the bible. The bible explains that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God will allow you to understand.

three: from old to new testament how on earth could men agree through those ages to write what they did? With the number of writers and span of ages, and locations, and traditions and customs and such, how could they all agree? I'm not talking one writers says 2 the other says 3 I talking about the main message of the bible. Think now adays.....we couldn't take the same time span and find men who all agree and would write it down? Only God could have inspired each writer to write what they did. Its interesting to read the bible and see distinct writing styles and structures but also the obviousness that it must have been one mind, one God who inspired the writing.


HowietheChristian
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Voiderest, You said you were

Voiderest,

You said you were baptised in a "Christian" church so Jesus must have been in there.....well Baptism according to the bible is not something a baby can do! Baptism comes after trusting in Christ and repenting not before or as a child who is unable to trust or repent! This church you were baptised in IS NOT CHRISTIAN! Just to make it clear CATHOLIC and (LUTHERAN churchs who perform infant baptisms) have no understand of the Gospel and and falsely called Christian churches. the CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT CHRISTIAN.


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HowietheChristian

HowietheChristian wrote:
Think about this. Gods standard of Goodness is the Ten Commandments, which is the moral law in the bible. Ask yourself the following...about 4 of the Ten Commandments.

1) You shall not take God’s name in vain. (Have you ever used God’s holy Name as a cuss word or to show disgust?)

2) You shall not steal. (Have you ever stolen anything? — the value of the item is irrelevant.) (pens and pencils count)

3)You shall not murder. (God considers hatred to be as murder. Have you ever hated anyone?)

4)You shall not commit adultery. (“Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart” — Matthew 5:27-28 ; this also includes sex before marriage).

Tell me Howie.... what does God say we should do to those who break these commandments? Does a rock to the head ring a bell? Is this your God's standard of goodness? Sounds like a prick to me.

I could make up a better God than that.


MattShizzle
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We know parachutes and

We know parachutes and flight attendants exist. Not so with God. By the way, the 1st 4 commandments are purely religious and have absolutely nothing to do with morality. Why couldn't there be commandments against rape or slavery? Almost anyone could make a better set of 10 commandments. Try it!

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


jcgadfly
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Howie, 1) You shall not

Howie,

1) You shall not take God’s name in vain.

Have you ever prayed for something in the name of your God and not received it?

Doing something in vain also means doing something that has no effect or purpose. Stop chastising people about what you've done unless you're willing to accept your seat in your hell as well.

Let him who is without sin, etc....

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Insidium Profundis
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HowietheChristian wrote:So

HowietheChristian wrote:
So the commandment not to steal is cruel and stupid? How about not to murder, is the commandment saying not to do that stupid? or cruel?

I was referring to the Old Testament entirely, not merely the Ten Commandments. Of those, the first four (and thus, presumably the four most important ones) are specifically about remaining loyal to god. The others are certainly good ones, but once again, nothing original. The stupidity and cruelty I was referring to is the necessity of stoning to death apostates, heretics, adulterous women, and children who disobey their parents. Do you think it's cruel and stupid to stone your child if he disobeys you? The god of the Old Testament does not.

Quote:
the quote at the bottom of your post

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."

...comes from an analogue of Christianity (Space Marines from WarHammer 40K).

Quote:
So who's mind is unopen about God? Mine or yours?

Christian apologetics are terribly unconvincing. My mind is highly skeptical, so if you cannot provide sufficient evidence for his existence, or if your idea of god is in any way internally contradictory, then the gates of my mind will close upon god. However, you spent about 50% of your post just talking about my signature, which is rather irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


melchisedec
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Howie, I appreciate your

Howie,

I appreciate your response, here are my objections to some of your points.

HowietheChristian wrote:
melchisdec,
you can know for a few reasons God Inspired the bible, one: God says it is, however I wouldn't expect folks who don't believe in God to just believe that.

This is circular. For me to rely on the fact that the bible claims to be an inspired work, I would need to presuppose that it is indeed an inspired work of God to begin with. I know it claims to be inspired, but what backs up that claim?

Quote:

two: dispite all the claims it contradicts itself, it does not. The bible also makes the claim those who do not believe in faith first, by trusting in Jesus and repenting will not understand the simple things of the bible. The bible explains that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God will allow you to understand.

In this case I have to already make a leap of faith to believe in order to understand the bible. Or in my case to verify it is indeed a inspired work of God. The flaw in this is that the bible would never need to prove itself an inspired work, as soon as you take a leap of faith to believe it is, than no proof is required since you have now explicity trusted it.

Quote:

three: from old to new testament how on earth could men agree through those ages to write what they did? With the number of writers and span of ages, and locations, and traditions and customs and such, how could they all agree? I'm not talking one writers says 2 the other says 3 I talking about the main message of the bible. Think now adays.....we couldn't take the same time span and find men who all agree and would write it down? Only God could have inspired each writer to write what they did. Its interesting to read the bible and see distinct writing styles and structures but also the obviousness that it must have been one mind, one God who inspired the writing.

Well part of how the bible is somewhat consistent is the passage of the oral traditions. Yes, there are indeed many writers of the bible, numbering I believe more than 40. However you still fail to show me why I should believe these men were inspired by God. Some might also show inconsistencies in the book that contradicts your statement. Regardless, to match your analogy greek mythology is a belief system on a massive scale that spans centuries, one might make the same point of how could so many different people devise a story out of nothing, remain consistent and also choose to fight to the death in its name.

Howie, the evidence I seek is something that will show me that the writers of the bible and those who canonized the bible were indeed inspired. Maybe you can try to show me first how those who canonized the bible were inspired and we might take it from there. Thanks.


Voided
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HowietheChristian

HowietheChristian wrote:
Voiderest,

You said you were baptised in a "Christian" church so Jesus must have been in there.....well Baptism according to the bible is not something a baby can do! Baptism comes after trusting in Christ and repenting not before or as a child who is unable to trust or repent! This church you were baptised in IS NOT CHRISTIAN! Just to make it clear CATHOLIC and (LUTHERAN churchs who perform infant baptisms) have no understand of the Gospel and and falsely called Christian churches. the CATHOLIC CHURCH IS NOT CHRISTIAN.


First I thought I said I don't think it means anything. I just thought I would mention it.

Second you just pulled a no-true-scotsmen.

Third you fail to address any relative point I made, such as pascal's wager being shit or how you need to prove all sorts of other things before getting into what your idea of god wants from us.