Christian Feminists?

Cleveralias
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Christian Feminists?

I have a friend who considers herself both a feminist and a catholic - to me there is an obvious contradiction here - all the Judeo Christian religions are hostile to women - aside from the obvious (women not allowed to become priests, blaiming eve for the fall) I would like ammunition to show her how hostile the catholic church is to women and how being a feminist and a catholic are mutially exclusive .

 

Thanks in advance

Technically faith is just the opposite of paranoia - the irrational belief that someone is out to help you ~ The Vandingo


Beyond Saving
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Apparently you have never

Apparently you have never learned the "First Undeniable Truth About Women"

The First Undeniable Truth About Women: Women can contradict themselves as many times as they want - men are not allowed to point out said contradictions, they are expected to simply agree.

This truth is especially true when dealing with a feminist.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Wow, Beyond Saving, that's

Wow, Beyond Saving, that's charming.  It's true of course.  We're all irrational nutcases purely driven by our hormones.  Thanks for that.

 

Anyway, to the OP, this link has some of the biblical passages which are especially sexist.  I don't know if this was the kind of thing you were looking for, as it's not really specific to the Catholic Church, but you might find it helpful.  The entire site is an excellent resource for debating Christians in general.

  http://www.godisimaginary.com/i30.htm


Iruka Naminori
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Christian is to feminist

Christian is to feminist

as

Slave is to civil rights activist 


cam
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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Apparently you have never learned the "First Undeniable Truth About Women"

The First Undeniable Truth About Women: Women can contradict themselves as many times as they want - men are not allowed to point out said contradictions, they are expected to simply agree.

This truth is especially true when dealing with a feminist.

 

I really hope that you are being provokative and that you don't actually beleive this. It's really hard to tell when it's written in text, so I'll assume that you do mean it as there is no indication of sarcasm.

I think what you have said is irrational and sexist.

For the record, I am a man and i consider myself a feminist. Feminism covers a broad spectrum of positions, so you're stereotyping is not appreciated.


Beyond Saving
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cam wrote:I really hope

cam wrote:

I really hope that you are being provokative and that you don't actually beleive this. It's really hard to tell when it's written in text, so I'll assume that you do mean it as there is no indication of sarcasm.

I think what you have said is irrational and sexist.

For the record, I am a man and i consider myself a feminist. Feminism covers a broad spectrum of positions, so you're stereotyping is not appreciated.

Jesus Nailed Up Christ, some people around here need to lighten up and enjoy life a little.

Note: The irrational nutcases comment didn't come from me. (Although I find that is true about once a month) By the way DrTerwilliker, we all know (most) men are far more driven by their hormones than (most) women. (oops, there I go stereotyping again. Bad boy)

If by sexist you mean that I lay only women, then yes I am sexist.

Am I irrational? Sure in some ways. Many things about the relationships between men and women is irrational, especially the good parts. I don't particularly care to be Mr. Spock.

Do I believe the Undeniable Truth? Well I'm married so of course I do. My wife has me well trained.

As for my stereotyping not being appreciated, I don't particularly care. If you don't appreciate it, I didn't force you to read it. Don't read anything I post ever again. I don't care.

Kudos to you for being a feminist. Am I actually supposed to say something about that?

As for the OP, I'm not sure the nature of his relationship with the particular female in question, but if it one the is or he hopes will become intimate, I would not recommend that he approaches the subject with the attitude of "Aha, one of your views contradicts another!" That is a good way to sleep on the couch, literally or figuratively. A more gentle tact might work better. If it is just a friend he likes to talk to then the pointing out contradictions approach might be fun, but my money is on it not working other than getting a rise out of her.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


cam
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Beyond Saving wrote:cam

Beyond Saving wrote:
cam wrote:

I really hope that you are being provokative and that you don't actually beleive this. It's really hard to tell when it's written in text, so I'll assume that you do mean it as there is no indication of sarcasm.

I think what you have said is irrational and sexist.

For the record, I am a man and i consider myself a feminist. Feminism covers a broad spectrum of positions, so you're stereotyping is not appreciated.

Jesus Nailed Up Christ, some people around here need to lighten up and enjoy life a little.

Note: The irrational nutcases comment didn't come from me. (Although I find that is true about once a month) By the way DrTerwilliker, we all know (most) men are far more driven by their hormones than (most) women. (oops, there I go stereotyping again. Bad boy)

If by sexist you mean that I lay only women, then yes I am sexist.

Am I irrational? Sure in some ways. Many things about the relationships between men and women is irrational, especially the good parts. I don't particularly care to be Mr. Spock.

Do I believe the Undeniable Truth? Well I'm married so of course I do. My wife has me well trained.

As for my stereotyping not being appreciated, I don't particularly care. If you don't appreciate it, I didn't force you to read it. Don't read anything I post ever again. I don't care.

Kudos to you for being a feminist. Am I actually supposed to say something about that?

And here is the back lash. Don't get shitty at me for calling you out on it. If you post something outlandishly stupid/sexist/racist etc, expect someone to respond. This is 'rational responders' after all. Make yourself clear as to whether you are citing something or whether it's your opinion.

 


Hambydammit
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Um, before this gets out of

Um, before this gets out of hand, I'd like to make a couple of observations:

1.  There are almost as many "feminist viewpoints" as there are Christian denominations, so lumping feminists into a single category is kind of silly.

2.  I'm not saying we can't talk about feminism here, but we know we all agree on atheism -- it would be awesome if we left our disagreements at least far enough to the side to focus on other stuff that's maybe a little more clear cut.

3.  Ok.  Three observations.  As far as feminism/sexism goes, one of the stickiest issues is that defining the issues is extraordinarily complicated.  Most people who want things to be better for women can't even agree on how to collect and interpret data, and then they can't agree on how to judge what is better or worse!  I know feminists who will bitch if another woman gets mad at a guy for citing the Universal Rule, the same way Bill Cosby gets mad at blacks for citing racism.  Point being, geez, people.  Nobody's getting married to each other, right?  Ok?  Everybody have a cup of tea.  It'll be fine tomorrow.  I promise.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit
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Hmm.... that was one of the

Hmm.... that was one of the most unorganized posts I've made in a while.  Let me clarify a little.  Point three started out as an attempt to say that just because the woman in the OP claims to be feminist, we can't very well tell what would work in a discussion with her because we don't know what feminism means to her.

She might be against all pornography, for a single, monogamous marriage regardless of desire, and against premarital sex and call herself a feminist because that's what the bible says women ought to be like.

For that matter, I can name one feminist on this site who is in favor of women flaunting what they have whenever it works, and I can name another who thinks that's terrible.

Point being, we don't have nearly enough information to help.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Beyond Saving
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Ok, now I feel obligated to

Ok, now I feel obligated to actually get this thread back on track. Thanks a lot Hamby.

Here is a list of biblical versus that should make any feminist mad.

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)

"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)

"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;" (Deuteronomy 22:22)

"Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:24)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)

"Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)

"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)

"If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go." (Eccles. 25: 26)

"The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty." (Eccles. 26:9-10)

"A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)

"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)

"For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X