Hindusim

Venkatrajan
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Hindusim

Hi RRS

Wanted to know your views on Hinduism and its philosophy

A lot conventional Western Rationale/reason/ Science and Materialism comes to nought when you understand the core of the Monoism of Hinduism. There were many philosophies under Hinduism, but Vedanta is the most succesful. Vedanta advocates Monosim of the Absoulte. This absoluet has various names like Brahman , Atman, The all pervading supreme Self etc.

It totally refutes Materialism and Dualism (ie Matter and Spirit).

VenkatRajan

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Venkatrajan wrote: Hi RRS

Venkatrajan wrote:
Hi RRS Wanted to know your views on Hinduism and its philosophy A lot conventional Western Rationale/reason/ Science and Materialism comes to nought when you understand the core of the Monoism of Hinduism. There were many philosophies under Hinduism, but Vedanta is the most succesful. Vedanta advocates Monosim of the Absoulte. This absoluet has various names like Brahman , Atman, The all pervading supreme Self etc. It totally refutes Materialism and Dualism (ie Matter and Spirit). VenkatRajan

There are indeed some interesting ideas within the Hindu philosophical tradition.  The problem I had with it when I studied Hindu philsophy as part of my degree course was all the God nonsense and the various unsupported claims and assumptions. In other words the religious crap associated with some otherwise fascinating philosophical insights that where ahead of the west in many ways.

Please expand upon the area you wish to discuss. 

 


Venkatrajan
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Hinduism

Thanks for responding and glad to know you studied Hinduism.

Firstly I have a question for RSS.

1. Is RSS against God as an entity or does it refute just the people who believe in god.  I seem to be getting the feeling that RSS and its fellow like minded society members have so much personal individualized ego that they feel it is a hurt to the human ego that there could be an existence of a supernatural entity called God. This is just vain pride  by some fellow Humans who ignore the Irrational. Irrational is what Science cannot see because of its limitations. Where Science stops , the Spirit starts. Though as much as Science seems to be getting closer to the Spirit , farther goes the Spirit, the Ultimate truths about our origins, our current beautiful orderlinesss etc. 

The above vain pride actually results in rather pompously proclaiming and campaigning for Atheism. It is as if your opposition is not for the Theists , but the God who is in the minds of the Theists. You may dig deep into your and fellow moderators souls (sorry minds) to check this out 

Second regarding the Religious and God thing in Hinduism, which you have berated.  From ages Humanity has been debating about God's existence and philosophy and is still debating and continues to debate.

I can understand that the feeling of discomfort you may have got while reading about devotion of Hindu people and to its pantheon of Gods.  Well it is like this. The Ultimate truth of  Being is "Brahman" which is the all pervading Self . This is without Space/Time attribute , without form, colour and cannot be seen or heard , but only felt. To get to 'know' him, one has to have

1. Devotion (will be to Gods)

2. Disciplined and austere / desireless life

 3. Meditate on the Self (for a very long period)

This has been done by large numbers of people (mostly Hindu Sages) who have then actually realised the Absolute. You may not believe but unless you do it yourself, you cant imagine what it is.

Venkatrajan

I am looking for Atheists to increase my belief in God


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Venkatrajan wrote: Thanks

Venkatrajan wrote:

Thanks for responding and glad to know you studied Hinduism.

Firstly I have a question for RSS.

1. Is RSS against God as an entity or does it refute just the people who believe in god.

Well I can't speak for everyone but I do not belive that God exists. My view on the people that belive that God does exist is simply that they are wrong. 

Quote:
I seem to be getting the feeling that RSS and its fellow like minded society members have so much personal individualized ego that they feel it is a hurt to the human ego that there could be an existence of a supernatural entity called God.

No thats not it at all I'm afraid. My personal opinion is that it is the theists that have delusions of grandure and who have the big ego problems. There is nothing more egotistical in my opinion than thinking that there is a God who created the universe and who cares about you. Personal Gods are the ultimate vainity created by man to flatter their own egos.

Now with the Hindu traditions this form of vain, egotistical thinking is not quite a bad but it is still very much there. To even supose that we can have worked out the answers, that we can merge and become one with the ultimnate reality is really a very very foolish and vain thought. 

Most atheists I know will readily admit that they do not have all the answers and that humanity itself does not have the answers. This to me is a rather sensible and unvain atitude.

The begining of wisdom is realising that you know very little.

The end of wisdom is when you make up the answers.

 

Quote:
This is just vain pride by some fellow Humans who ignore the Irrational. Irrational is what Science cannot see because of its limitations. Where Science stops , the Spirit starts. Though as much as Science seems to be getting closer to the Spirit , farther goes the Spirit, the Ultimate truths about our origins, our current beautiful orderlinesss etc.

No irrational is just a set of beliefs that can't be justified. Its another word for stupidity really.

 

Quote:
The above vain pride actually results in rather pompously proclaiming and campaigning for Atheism.

Why? 

Quote:
It is as if your opposition is not for the Theists , but the God who is in the minds of the Theists. You may dig deep into your and fellow moderators souls (sorry minds) to check this out

Thesim and irrationality causes very real problems in our society. It needs to be eliminated. There is nothing good about irrational thought. As I said before irrationality is really just a form of stupidity. 

Quote:
Second regarding the Religious and God thing in Hinduism, which you have berated. From ages Humanity has been debating about God's existence and philosophy and is still debating and continues to debate.

So what?  

Quote:
I can understand that the feeling of discomfort you may have got while reading about devotion of Hindu people and to its pantheon of Gods. Well it is like this. The Ultimate truth of Being is "Brahman" which is the all pervading Self . This is without Space/Time attribute , without form, colour and cannot be seen or heard , but only felt. To get to 'know' him, one has to have

1. Devotion (will be to Gods)

2. Disciplined and austere / desireless life

3. Meditate on the Self (for a very long period)

This has been done by large numbers of people (mostly Hindu Sages) who have then actually realised the Absolute. You may not believe but unless you do it yourself, you cant imagine what it is.

Venkatrajan

Yes I've had this discusion with many from the Hare Krishna cult.  Its along the lines of "oh well you can't understand. You will understand once you meditate and devote yourself to the Hindu gods" in other words you will believe when you believe. This kind of circular reasoning really does not cut it I'm arfaid. 

What you need to do is to demonstrate to me why the Hindu concept of Brahman is correct. Also what do you take the ultimate reality to be? Why do you think it involves conciousness? Why do you think it needs to be worshiped? Why should we bother to do so? Is this reality aware of our actions and if so how?

I'm perfectly ready to discuss and indeed entertain the possability of an underlying structure to reality that is neither physical or mental in nature. I consider my metaphsycial position to be one of neutral monism and this is indeed in line with some Hindu philosophy but what I find absurd is all the "add ons" that are atributed to this inderlying structure, the conciousness, the entities, the karma and all that bollocks. All of the add ons are just baseless claims which deserve no more respect than the Chrsitain claims about their God creating everything 6000 years ago (about 1000 years after the oldest Vedas where written!).


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LOL!  That's it. We're all

LOL!  That's it. We're all Narcissistic wretches.  What a curious comment from someone so new.

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Venkatrajan
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Quote - No irrational is

Quote - No irrational is just a set of beliefs that can't be justified. Its another word for stupidity really.

Firstly why do you say that the irrational is stupidity. It indicates that what is not proven is not acceptable to you and other atheists. You wish Science to prove everything. Are you then indicating that Science has proven everything that was to prove. Obviously not. What is irrational today , a thought say might be proven by Science tomorrow or by other means. So what happens to that stupidity which gets proven. You will look pompous when it gets proven !!!! though it was irrational. So lets not assume an a Priori statement that what is irrational is stupid. Not to say all irrationality will be proven . No that is not going to happen. So the wise one is one who discriminates between the set of irrational beliefs.

Quote -  Thesim and irrationality causes very real problems in our society

Not so in Hinduism, am not sure with Islam and Christianity which seem to be on loggerheads though and this has caused great problems like 9/11 and Iraq War. 

 Regarding the discussion with the Hare Krishna Cult . It cant be proven by me or anyone  to you, since it is a personal experience issue. If you try sincerely, you  will get it. Also it doesnt say as you indicate that the Self has to be worshipped. Also it is not be believed (as you say ___ you will believe when you believe) , but to be felt intuitively first and then only believed. By 'felt', I dont mean a vague and far off dream like realization, but a complete and composite experience (in full consciousness that you are alive and well) which can be exhilirating to someone who gets it first time. The nature of things and the ultimate reality are apprehended in one shot , in a micromicro second which totally changes the conventions others have , rather turns it upside down. 

 quote - why do you think it involves the consciousness

To know and to percieve (we are talking epistemology here) , you require a knower  a subject and the known ie the object . We consider our body to be the knower. It cannot be , since you have a brain/mind inside the body which receives the information and processes it. Lets say you see a table in front of you. Science will tell you that the eyes receive the reflected rays from the table. So do the eyes know that it is table. No Obviously. The information gets passed onto the brain and processed. An image is formed in the brain/mind. Does this confirm to you the thing as table ? Does your hand or leg know it as table ? Just as your hand or leg doesnt know it as table , so also your brain/mind doesnt know it as table. However unlike the hand/leg , the brain/mind  plays an intermediary role  in the knowdledge of a table being in front of you. It only assists by processing the information. What confirms the reality of this perception is the consciousness which is lording above. At the very basic level, we are aware of our existence not because our brain senses that the heart is beating and blood is flowing. We are also not aware of our existence because of electrochemical nerve movements/events though these only assist in the process.  Your conscious is revealing to you constantly that you are alive. it is happening every micromicro second.  Try closing your eyes and think only about your awareness  or that continuity of your life in that time period. Then think who is telling you that you are alive. If the brain/mind is the ultimate arbiter , it will not even think "Am I alive at this moment ?" What tells you are alive is your consciousness only . Now neuroscientists may try to map this out , but if the brain or its product mind is thinking "Am I alive" will the same entity answer the question affirmatively. It is a contradiction.   The answer is given by the Self or the conscious which therefore is above the mind.  This consciousness is the all pervading Self and is the Absolute . Viewed at a cosmic level, this is the Brahman. it pervades everywhere  and is timeless.

Materialism says that matter only exists. But matter cannot perceive knowledge of another matter. At a higher level, there is a supramatter or Being which perceives and pervades. One may call it God or by any name. But that is the Truth.

Now the last part of your question deals with tha "add ons" . Yes very difficult to justify. But a very vast and diverse set of people who have realized the truth at various different times have also perceived the pantheon of Gods in Hinduism (may read ridiculous to anyone , but is proven because diverse set of people including non believers who meditated for the heck of it to disprove the belief also saw them). The same holds true for the theory of Karma.

Venkat Rajan

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Venkatrajan wrote:

Venkatrajan wrote:

1. Is RSS against God as an entity or does it refute just the people who believe in god.

Both.

Quote:
I seem to be getting the feeling that RSS and its fellow like minded society members have so much personal individualized ego that they feel it is a hurt to the human ego that there could be an existence of a supernatural entity called God. This is just vain pride by some fellow Humans who ignore the Irrational.

We're not preoccupied with being humble (like many Eastern traditions seem to exist for), but rather with the truth. And for me god(s) have to go when it boils down to the truth.

Quote:
Irrational is what Science cannot see because of its limitations. Where Science stops , the Spirit starts. Though as much as Science seems to be getting closer to the Spirit , farther goes the Spirit, the Ultimate truths about our origins, our current beautiful orderlinesss etc.

The word you want is nonrational. So, can you tell me where science stops? Because I don't think there's a place where we've been stopped. Feel like it's time to think about God of the Gaps...

TMore on your pride issues, the point here is to defend, not to be appealing, concilliatory, or appeasing. We play rough, but because we care Smiling I'd hope you would be ok with playing too, no one will get hurt

Quote:
Second regarding the Religious and God thing in Hinduism, which you have berated. From ages Humanity has been debating about God's existence and philosophy and is still debating and continues to debate.

Annoyingly, yes. Argumentum ad antiquitatem feels comfortable doesn't it

Quote:
I can understand that the feeling of discomfort you may have got while reading about devotion of Hindu people and to its pantheon of Gods.

Quite an assumption there. I'm willing to guess that you're projecting quite a bit of your own discomfort with us.

Quote:
Well it is like this. The Ultimate truth of Being is "Brahman" which is the all pervading Self . This is without Space/Time attribute , without form, colour and cannot be seen or heard , but only felt. To get to 'know' him, one has to have

If it is without any sort of space/time attribute, as a naturalist I say that it cannot be felt. To "feel" something requires temporality, and you are shooting your own dualism in the foot when you ask us to "feel" our spirit. To use the human to interact with the "devine" or "infinite" you might say is a comfortable and pleasant thing to wish for, but it simply does't work that way. I have studied meditation, and "felt" quite a bit of things myself, but none of those gave me the necessary evidence to claim that it was transcendant of this world, like you do.

The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...


zarathustra
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Venkatrajan wrote:

Venkatrajan wrote:

Firstly why do you say that the irrational is stupidity.

Because it is. Pick any field outside of religion, and decide if you'd apply irrationality to it.

Venkatrajan wrote:

It indicates that what is not proven is not acceptable to you and other atheists.

Do you find islam or christianity acceptable?

Venkatrajan wrote:
What is irrational today , a thought say might be proven by Science tomorrow or by other means. So what happens to that stupidity which gets proven.

You prove to me that there's a six-armed elephant who showers gold on those who burn incense to him, and I'll stop thinking that it's stupid. Prove to me that the Ganges is a divinity rather than a festering cesspool, and I'll stop thinking it's stupid that people use it for ritual bathing.

Venkatrajan wrote:
You will look pompous when it gets proven !!!! though it was irrational. So lets not assume an a Priori statement that what is irrational is stupid.

Let's neither assume a priori that any irrational statement is true. That would be ... stupid.

Venkatrajan wrote:
Not to say all irrationality will be proven. No that is not going to happen.

Very well. Therefore let's limit ourselves to what does get proven.

Venkatrajan wrote:

So the wise one is one who discriminates between the set of irrational beliefs.

And what criteria do you use for discriminating between the set of irrational beliefs, O Wise One?

Venkatrajan wrote:

Quote - Thesim and irrationality causes very real problems in our society

Not so in Hinduism, am not sure with Islam and Christianity which seem to be on loggerheads though and this has caused great problems like 9/11 and Iraq War.

Not so in hinduism indeed. As Kashmir attests, hinduism and islam have been perfectly harmonious for centuries. (Should the skeptics need further convincing, look also at hindu-sikh relations; no problems there either...just ask Indira Gandhi)

Venkatrajan wrote:

[unintelligible stuff about hare krishnas and the brain not knowing what a table is]


Materialism says that matter only exists. But matter cannot perceive knowledge of another matter.

Why not? Why can consciousness not be a physical phenomenon? You would have to demonstrate the existence of consciousness separate from a brain to argue otherwise.

Venkatrajan wrote:

At a higher level, there is a supramatter or Being which perceives and pervades. One may call it God or by any name. But that is the Truth.

Tell god or whatever its name is to find its way into a science lab so it can be proven. Then we can start calling it the Truth.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
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Venkatrajan wrote: Quote -

Venkatrajan wrote:

Quote - No irrational is just a set of beliefs that can't be justified. Its another word for stupidity really.

Firstly why do you say that the irrational is stupidity. It indicates that what is not proven is not acceptable to you and other atheists.

No that would only follow if in order to be rational you could only hold proven premises. Rationalit y does not require this it requires evidence thats all. Holding a belief without evidence is irrational it is also stupid because such beliefs are not generally very good at getting results. By getting results I mean succesful actions based upon those beliefs. 

 

Quote:
You wish Science to prove everything.

Thanks for telling me what I wish. Are you a mind reader? 

Quote:
Are you then indicating that Science has proven everything that was to prove.

No 

 

Quote:
Obviously not. What is irrational today , a thought say might be proven by Science tomorrow or by other means.

Indeed 

Quote:
So what happens to that stupidity which gets proven. You will look pompous when it gets proven !!!!

No I will not look pompus. I will change my opinon in the light of new evidence and admit that I was wrong. We are allowed to be wrong about things it snot the end of teh world.

Quote:
though it was irrational. So lets not assume an a Priori statement that what is irrational is stupid.

It is. In your example my belief was based on the best available evidence at the time. It was justfied on that evidence, it actually turned out to be wrong but hey on teh avialble evidence I was justfeid and rational to hold it. It is perfectly possible to rationally hold a false beleif. 

Quote:
 Not to say all irrationality will be proven . No that is not going to happen. So the wise one is one who discriminates between the set of irrational beliefs.

Quote -  Thesim and irrationality causes very real problems in our society

Not so in Hinduism, am not sure with Islam and Christianity which seem to be on loggerheads though and this has caused great problems like 9/11 and Iraq War. 

Oh please. Really you think hinduism does not cause problem? Just have a look at the misery caused by the caste system for starters.

But I will give Hinduism this its probably not as bad as Xtianity and Islam. Its pluralist tradition tend to make it somewhat more tollerent than other religions. But that does not mean that it has not caused its fair amount of shit.

 

Quote:
Regarding the discussion with the Hare Krishna Cult . It cant be proven by me or anyone  to you, since it is a personal experience issue. If you try sincerely, you  will get it.

In other words you will believe if you believe.

If I dont; get it then I;m not trying sincerely enough.

Complete circular nonsense that really can't be proved. You have a get out clause for anything but the answer you want. Nice! 

Quote:
Also it doesnt say as you indicate that the Self has to be worshipped. Also it is not be believed (as you say ___ you will believe when you believe) , but to be felt intuitively first and then only believed. By 'felt', I dont mean a vague and far off dream like realization, but a complete and composite experience (in full consciousness that you are alive and well) which can be exhilirating to someone who gets it first time. The nature of things and the ultimate reality are apprehended in one shot , in a micromicro second which totally changes the conventions others have , rather turns it upside down. 

Let me ask you this. Underwhat circumstancs would you accept that I have actually tried all this meditation and come to the conclusion that Hinduism was wrong? How do you know that I have not become more enlightened than the Gurus and Yogis of hinduism seen why they ahve made the errors they have made and worked it out to a higher level? How can you know that I have not done this? You can't can  you? Just as I have no evidnece that what hinduism claims is true.

Quote:
 quote - why do you think it involves the consciousness

To know and to percieve (we are talking epistemology here) , you require a knower  a subject and the known ie the object . We consider our body to be the knower. It cannot be , since you have a brain/mind inside the body which receives the information and processes it. Lets say you see a table in front of you. Science will tell you that the eyes receive the reflected rays from the table. So do the eyes know that it is table. No Obviously. The information gets passed onto the brain and processed. An image is formed in the brain/mind. Does this confirm to you the thing as table ? Does your hand or leg know it as table ? Just as your hand or leg doesnt know it as table , so also your brain/mind doesnt know it as table. However unlike the hand/leg , the brain/mind  plays an intermediary role  in the knowdledge of a table being in front of you. It only assists by processing the information. What confirms the reality of this perception is the consciousness which is lording above. At the very basic level, we are aware of our existence not because our brain senses that the heart is beating and blood is flowing. We are also not aware of our existence because of electrochemical nerve movements/events though these only assist in the process.  Your conscious is revealing to you constantly that you are alive. it is happening every micromicro second.  Try closing your eyes and think only about your awareness  or that continuity of your life in that time period. Then think who is telling you that you are alive. If the brain/mind is the ultimate arbiter , it will not even think "Am I alive at this moment ?" What tells you are alive is your consciousness only . Now neuroscientists may try to map this out , but if the brain or its product mind is thinking "Am I alive" will the same entity answer the question affirmatively. It is a contradiction.   The answer is given by the Self or the conscious which therefore is above the mind.  This consciousness is the all pervading Self and is the Absolute . Viewed at a cosmic level, this is the Brahman. it pervades everywhere  and is timeless.

Ok we are concious thats great but how can you extrapolate that to the rest of the universe? You can't its a baseless claim. We can have interesting discusions about the Nyaya schools theories of perception and what have you but as soon as you start saying that there is a universal conciousness of some kind you decend into religious mumbo jumbo.

Quote:
Materialism says that matter only exists. But matter cannot perceive knowledge of another matter. At a higher level, there is a supramatter or Being which perceives and pervades. One may call it God or by any name. But that is the Truth.

Nope. I say that there is stuff that makes up the universe. Matter is one way of describing it mental is another way but neither are fundamental descriptions of the underlying structure. To say that conciousness is everying is as erronious as say matter is everything in my opinion.

Quote:
Now the last part of your question deals with tha "add ons" . Yes very difficult to justify. But a very vast and diverse set of people who have realized the truth at various different times have also perceived the pantheon of Gods in Hinduism (may read ridiculous to anyone , but is proven because diverse set of people including non believers who meditated for the heck of it to disprove the belief also saw them). The same holds true for the theory of Karma.

Sorry but more people beleive in Christianity and Islam so by your argument you should really follow Chrsitanity. The argument from numbers really does not work I'm afraid.


Venkatrajan
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Hi I  guess we are talking

Hi I  guess we are talking to each other on two different threads, In fact some of the questions and comments I have addressed in a reply just sometime ago on the  other thread on body-mind problem.

 

I will address some of the rsidual addresses here later.

 

 

I am looking for Atheists to increase my belief in God