AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Sapient
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Kirk is the first in a long line of upcoming audio responses. Listen in and discuss these mailbag pieces in these threads.

Kirk writes us:

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well all I have to say is... well you don't believe in God.. well then that isn't my problem.. just sure hope your right.

Kirk also commented on our profile:

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One. if you were even a pro at skepticism then you would know that the people of the Bible actually existed.
which in that case then Solomon one of the wises man of the Bible. once said
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
Two. you think that we believe in it blindly? well then your certainly wrong cause there have been more proofs over the Bible than any other book.
A. the Witnesses accounts.
B. Bet you can't explain Pauls Conversion which is talked about in Acts.
C. then the deaths of the Apostles- each died a martyrd death. why would they die for a lie?

Here is Kirks profile: http://www.myspace.com/prisonerofjoy

Here is our audio response: http://www.rationalresponders.com/media/Mailbag/Kirk6-26-06.mp3

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MattShizzle
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Thomas Edison didn't believe in God. :roll:


Sapient
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JesusSaves wrote:

if you had hard proof then what would that bring? the only evidence is the universe.. I see it as.. if we were any further away from the sun then we would freeze and if we were closer to the sun we would fry.. instead it is perfect for us.. our world is the only world with the right stuff for life.

Two things:

1. If this argument proves God (it doesn't) it also proves anything imaginary that you want to make up created the Universe! Re-alits created the Universe, the evidence is the Universe exists... RETARDED.

2. If the Universe wasn't perfect for us to come into existence, we wouldn't be here to talk about it. The argument is worthless, and provides no proof, it simply says that we're here, and you don't understand why, so you'll make up some bullshit to explain it away. "Argument from ignorance" fallacy much?

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allah-- made up God... think about it... Muhammad said he found him in a cave.. similar to what John said he saw.. mormonism?

The same amount of proof exists for Allah as your god, which is to say there is none. Everytime you claim Allah doesn't exist you tell us yours doesn't either. Not to mention the fact they are the same god, spawned from the same god.

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Rigor_OMortis
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Actually, Sapient, I've already given a response to that (and so have most on this board) in the thread about the 6 reasons to believe in God...

what JS really fails to realize is the mistaken cause-effect problem of his argument... Is the Universe perfect for us because we are like that? Or are we like that because the Universe is like that?

As an answer on the Allah problem: At least Buddha and Allah have been made up by ONE SINGLE person (each) and therefore their "holy books" have a certain consistency... the only consistency I see in the Bible is the existance of one God... which is vaguely name as Yahweh in 2-3 of the books... all books are united through no other element alltogether...

Also, we know the history of how the Bible came into place... so wy shouldn't we believe in Buddha or Allah rather than in Yahweh ?

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That doesn't make sense.


JesusSaves
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well I am not sure if those questions are aimed at me or sapient?

I would like to say that I don't think arguements is what leads people to understanding each other.. but rather pushes them away.
I realize the fact that I am not good at argueing.. it is not a skill I've ever had.

But someone once said to me how do you know that Jesus is who He said He was in the Bible..

and well my answer to him was this-

explain away Peters change and the other decipals if Jesus isn't who he said he was.
Peter started out having fear (which grew once Jesus died since question-- the what if He wasn't who He said He was?)
but once the ressurection was confirmed that fear suddenly bannished even those who died did not have a fear of their painful death. would you die for a lie? that seems to be a question that I've been asking that I guess I havn't been making myself clear.. I am not a good typer.. though those who know me in person will understand me more than anyone else..

Peter- hung upside down on the cross

Paul- put in prison most of his life.. been flogged at, had the 39 lashes

John- was put in boiling hot oil and was cast off on a island

James- who was ashamed of his brother because he thought He was insane.

even to the point of death these fellow men died for the false hood of the testimonial beliefs.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


MattShizzle
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That's what the Bible says. That doesn't make it true. Most of us don't believe that Jesus ever existed. The story is copied off of too many earlier myths:

http://www.atheistfellowship.com/aa3/03.html

And the Jesus character wasn't all that admirable anyway:

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/jesus.php

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Here is what Edison said: "So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk." "When a man is dead, he is dead! My mind is incapable of conceiving such a thing as a soul. I may be in error, and man may have a soul; but I simply do not believe it."

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Rigor_OMortis
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OK, I'll drop it for now, since I don't really know how to explain what I mean in English... The questions were aimed at JS, not Sapient... I wanted only some more details on the things, but apparently I only confused people.

I'll answer to JS's last post:

"explain away Peters change and the other decipals if Jesus isn't who he said he was."
Peter and the other "apostles" have seen a possibility... a possibility to lead the "People of Israel" through faith, them being the indisputed leaders of the country. Also, Israel was at that time under Roman occupation, which the Jews wanted to get rid of. Therefore: they just wanted to lead people. not as kings and princes, but as spiritual leaders with far greater power. Think that the only people that saw Jesus resurrected were the apostles and Mary Magdalene (a possible wife, maybe)

"Peter started out having fear (which grew once Jesus died since question-- the what if He wasn't who He said He was?)"
He started to have fear that Jesus' plan stated above might fail... and feared for his own life after Jesus died and Peter felt that his resurrection story might fail to impress people

"but once the ressurection was confirmed that fear suddenly bannished even those who died did not have a fear of their painful death. "
... but it did impress people, so Peter's fear vanished; it is also said about all national heroes that "they had no fear of their deaths", so that's not much proof of anything

"would you die for a lie?"
Don't hundreds muslims die in suicide attempts for something that, according to Christians and Atheists the same, is a lie ? Speaking of which... I don't remember Christians dying for their God lately...

"Peter- hung upside down on the cross"
...so ?

"Paul- put in prison most of his life.. been flogged at, had the 39 lashes"
...so ?

"John- was put in boiling hot oil and was cast off on a island"
...so ?

"James- who was ashamed of his brother because he thought He was insane."
...so ?

Tell me... if you were the Roman authorities that had so many rebellions, wouldn't you severely punish the heads of it ?

"even to the point of death these fellow men died for the false hood of the testimonial beliefs."
And what's new under the Sun in that ? Haven't many Americans died on the falsehood of promises of installing Democracy and shit in Koreea, Iraq, etc. (off-topic: Why don't Americans invade Cuba to install Democracy there?), when it was actually only about controlling oil resources? And don't many Americans still believe strongly that "the Iraq war and occupation is only for the goodd of the Iraquis" ?

So... there's your explanation which seems to be held up by history. If that guy you told this to wasn't able to answer, well... let's just say not all atheists are necessarily well-cultivated.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


Sapient
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Rigor_OMortis wrote:

the only consistency I see in the Bible is the existance of one God... which is vaguely name as Yahweh in 2-3 of the books... all books are united through no other element alltogether...

Ironically they can't get his name straight either.

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Sapient
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JesusSaves wrote:

I realize the fact that I am not good at argueing.. it is not a skill I've ever had.

I don't think the problem is your ability to argue, you seem to be arguing just fine. It seems your problem is arguing honestly and with an open mind.

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Sapient
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Rigor_OMortis wrote:
The questions were aimed at JS, not Sapient...

I think everyone reading knew that, except JS.

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Yellow_Number_Five
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Others have probably already addressed these points, but you took the time to respond to me, so I will do you the same courtesy.

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
Is it just me, or did you did you just call for the stoning of the politically dissident?

I am curious as to why you did not respond to that.

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You've just made Sapient's point. Nobody is claiming people don't martyr themselves for what they believe. The 9/11 hijackers believed the lie - as did the followers of David Koresh and Jim Jones, as did the Heaven's Gate cult, as did the so called Apostles. People die for lies every day, because they are convinced their delusions are divine.

the 911 hijackers.. your nuts... if your talking about what counts the most it wouldn't be people from this time.. as Jesus states many will be killing people thinking it is an offering to God.. but infact it isn't.. there is one case that brings it down..
these people (apostols) were eye witnesses to the events that took place in Jesus time- unlike these so called witnesses 9/11 hijackers... there is no cause for them to have died for the lie. and even if they were really disinlussioned== you still have to wonder the
why did they(the apostols) go through with their death?
I mean you would think one would have said "look we messed up this is all lie" but none of them did.

No, JS, you are changing the subject. You've gone from claiming that "nobody would die for a lie" to "they knew they were not dying for a lie".

Shame on you.

I clearly showed you that people in a cult mentality DO willingly lay down their lives for what you and I would consider to be lies - those people simply believe in those lies. What we see as lies can get cloudy under cult and religious fervor.

If you wish to talk of the accuracy of the Biblical texts, we can, though I'm certainly not the most qualified on the board to do so.

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They died for it because they did believe it to be the truth. Nobody disputes that they did believe. The non-sequitor, the disconnect, the illogic, lies in attributing truth to something simply because one was foolish enough or deluded enough to die for it. That somebody is willing to matyr themselves for a cause dose not in any way make thier cause true
.

but as evidence showed no two people can have the same delusions or visions... paul was a soldier- he gave up everything- even became poor for Christ.
so why would they die for their lie knowing that it was a lie? that is a question you still haven't answered..
let me ask you something- if you made up a big hoaxs and people wanted to kill you would you die for your lie? wouldn't you want your life?

THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IT WAS A LIE, I don't dispute that they believed.

I cannot make it any more simple for you.

People can MOST CERTAINLY share delusions, it simply takes one to have the delusion and share it with others. If the delusional person has a strong personalility, he or she will find followers. I've already given you many modern day examples.

And NO, I wouldn't die for something I KNEW was a lie, no sane person would. I'm simply saying that it is not inconcievable that those that did martyr themselves for Christ did so under delusion - just as thousands of others have.

Did this Krishna set himself on fire for what he KNEW was a lie?

Did these people drink poison Kool-Aid, because they KNEW Jim Jones was not the messiah?

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Really? God didn't put you into that position?

Are you telling me God is not all knowing, not omnicient? Did God not know you would be subject to such addictions before he created you?

God creates people knowing what they will do, he must, or else he is not all knowing. You cannot have freewill AND an omnicient God. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

In a very real sense, IF God exists, he created me knowing I would reject him, knowing I would not believe. IF God punishes us for non-belief, then God in a very real sense created me knowing he was going to torture me for eternity. This does not seem like the actions of a loving being.

yes your right God did create you- He does know everything- and yes I wouldn't be wrong either if I said God put me in that position. but I wouldn't be wrong saying that satan put me in it..

So Satan is more powerful than God and can override God's will? Didn't God createe Satan as well?

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you'll have to read job to see how I am saying this...
I believe God predestined who would be saved... I don't think your future is laid out already as you might think.. yes God is all knowing and all powerful he can choose a plan for you.. but I believe God knows the outcome of your actions. like:

Oh, I've read Job, it's a big reason I'm an atheist. No loving being would do that to their child for a fucking bet. And you just said, God is all knowing, has a plan, ergo, God created me to be an atheist, to not believe, and according to you, burn in hell.

What purpose can this serve? How can this reflect a loving God?

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if you were going to buy a coke but you didn't have the money.. you could either steal it or simply not take it.. now I believe God knows the future of those different roads.. but not your future pursue...

that is how free will can set in you as an individual have the free will to choose

No, that is a cop out, and a weak one at that. How can God know all things and NOT know which choice I will make? Try to be honest with terms here.

Like I said, either God knows ALL things or he does not. IF God knows ALL things, there is no such thing as freewill. And even this leaves aside the fact that God constantly sits on his omnipotent hands.

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What baffles me is that you fail to see that the only reason your God needs to provide forgiveness is because he's the one who doles out the punishment.

Threatening to torture me and then not torturing me after I satisfy an arbitrary set of conditions is not a benevolent act - it's sadism.

God disciplines yes.. but Hes the parent. God also has a anger that doesn't last forever.. as we see in scripture.. it sometimes says "in Gods anger something bad happened" I don't think that takes away of who God really is.

Are you telling me hell is not eternal? That I can repent in hell?

Because if you are not, God is like no parent I know. No parent I know would torture their child for ETERNITY simply for not worshipping them.

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These three did not write the Gospels you refer to, and these Gospels were not written in the time period that Jesus supposedly existed.

Look it up yourself if you doubt me.

Oh really and you know this because?

My own research. The Gospels were wrtitten decadads after the supposed life of Jesus.

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as Henry H. Halley states:
"the four gospels are, by all odds, the most improtant part of the Bible: more importan than all the rest of the Bible put together. More important than all the rest of the books in the world put together: because we could better afford to be without the knowledge of everything else than to be without the knowledge of Christ. bible books that precede are anticipatory, and those that follow are explanatory, of the Hero of the four gospels."

Meaningless.

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these gospels were written 30-60 years ( not sure what the exact date is) but they were written near Jesus life time and mark was probally the first to compile his gospel for the early church was written 55 AD 22 years after the events took place.
Matthews gospel was probally written as early as AD 30 and was probally read by many 30 -60 AD

No, Paul is the link, and Paul never even saw Jesus in the flesh. Seriously, how do you explain the fact that a person ROSE FROM THE FRIGGEN' DEAD and NOBODY bothered to note it for 40+ years, minimum?

As todangst would say, it would be like the moon exploding and Carl Sagan not bothering to put it to paper for 40 years. In fact not just Sagan, bu NOBODY at all.

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No, he's saying it is more plausible that the supernatural aspects of Christ's life are mythical in this case - and honestly, even if there were a historical Jesus, without the supernatural aspects of the man's life, Christianity is still founded on a sham
.

do you know what the name Jesus Christ means? Anointed Savior. so he had a name.. the prophecies point to christ when you actually sit down and think about them.

No, they point to a mythical figure.

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why would anyone take time and say this man who was a carpenter is the Son of God and give him a resurrection story? can you explain the resurrection?

Can you explain why people would bother to make up stories about Dyoninsus, Hercules, Thor, Zues, Mithra, Paul Bunyan and David Koresh?

Personally, I feel the resurection story was an add on due to the Gnostics. Rook can explain this much better, but it is pretty clear that the people at the time wanted a PHYSICAL God, and not just Paul's Jesus - which is what things started out as.

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Huh? In what way? I won't disagree that Christianity has had a horrible inpact on our world, but I certainly don't think it is something you ought to be proud of.

Moral influence, artistic influence, humanitarian influence, inspire devotion, scholastic influence, impact on women.

Please don't make me vomit. Christians torched the Library of Alexandria (probably setting the world back 3,000 years), Christianity is solely responsible for the Dark Ages and the burning of millions at the stake, Christians are the ones who opposed Gallileo, Christians are the ones who oppose stem cell research and evolution - the faith is a blight on society and has been holding us all back for 2,000 years.

Yeah, humanitarianism like refusing food and water to Hindus and Muslims after the 2004 tsunami. Humanitarianism like the Crusades. Christian humanitarianism like burning "witches" at the stake in the millions.

Impact on women like Lot and his daughters? Impact on women as in treating them as property?

Devotion, I DON'T doubt that, you'd have to be devoted to be dedicated to something so vile.

I do actually like the art though.

Quote:
quote]No, sorry, you overestimate the impact of your Christ. You must remember that the majority of the world is not Christian. You're simply looking at the world through Western and Christian colored glasses

Hg wells wan't a fan of Christianity.. but he for some reason wrote many books over Jesus

So what?

Was Gene Rodenberry a big fan of Kilngons? He wrote lots of books and mad TV series about them. Are Klingons real?

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Yellow_Number_Five
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JesusSaves wrote:
Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

Edison aslo said:

"Religion is bunk"

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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JesusSaves wrote:

Yes, being omniscience God knows who will believe in Him. But as I said, he does not force Himself on us. He tells us in the Bible who He is and what is His plan for us. He then leaves it up to us to accept Him or reject Him"

What about people who have no chance of reading the bible? IE those that died before the bible was written, those living deep within the Amazon Jungle and stuff. Sure there are a couple missionary groups out there, but we're still talking millions of innocent people being flushed into eternal hellfires every year, for some shit they just had no IDEA about. And 99% of xtians seem to enjoy conveniently ignoring this fact. Sure, the missionaries are just as deluded, and are intent on forcing their religeon down as many ignorant, illiterate throats as they can, but at least they're being consistant in thier beliefs. I mean, what if the true religeon (I know I know, there's not one, but just go with me here) Was to be found among some african bushmen or some shit that noone here had ever heard of. like 99.9% of the world burns, and when we die and get there we're like "What the fuck do you mean we didn't serve the great myxplyxic?"

A loving God? Really?

I vote YES http//underdogryan.blogspot.com/2005/09/should-men-fling-poo.html


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jesussaves wrote:
have you had a addiction that stopped please tell me? would like to know.

Yes. and I didn't need any god to help me.


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I know many recovering alcoholics that have been sober for more than a decade. You want to know how they did it? They started taking personal responsibility for their actions, they did not have to turn to a ridiculous super natural figure to find reasons.


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CynageN wrote:
I know many recovering alcoholics that have been sober for more than a decade. You want to know how they did it? They started taking personal responsibility for their actions, they did not have to turn to a ridiculous super natural figure to find reasons.

Absolutely true, for my dad all it took was to see how badly it hurt the people he loved. There?s nothign you can do with god that you can?t do without him.

I vote YES http//underdogryan.blogspot.com/2005/09/should-men-fling-poo.html


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Yes, those 12 step programs suck. "It's a disease!" I just want to say "No, it's an addiction, and it's your fault. See that seven year old girl with cancer? THAT'S a disease. You've inflicted your own body with it's troubles. You chose to get addicted and now you're avoiding responsibility for your shitty decisions by blaming an imaginary friend."

Tch, Alcoholics Anonymous. What douchebags. :roll:

Wilson: "We were afraid that if you found out you solved a case with absolutely no medical evidence you'd think you were God." House: "God doesn't limp."


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JesusSaves wrote:

if you havn't read Job you can see that satan was the cause of jobs problems not God. though God allowed it to happen. but that doesn't mean that God did it.. not it was satan who did it brought job into misery.

*sigh* Like 90% of Christians, you should repeat what you READ in the bible, not what you've heard about it. The bible says "the Adversary" is betting God that Job will blaspheme Him if his material possessions are taken away. It doesn't refer to "Satan", it refers to "the Adversary." The same can be said for Genesis. Many Christians love to say that "Satan" tempted Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Buzz! It says the "serpent" not "Satan." If you're going to be a Christian, at least get familiar with their texts. Stop using sloppy translations and read the original texts for what they say. Reading the NIV and King James versions are about as good as having me translate this post into Polish. (and no, I can't speak or write in Polish) I'll pull a few excerpts from a textbook to prove my point.

I'll quote: Job 1:6 "One day the divine beings presented themselves before the Lord, and the Adversary came along with them." Tada!

Just for fun: Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said to the woman, 'You are not going to die...'" Tada! Something else I find funny here. Right after they eat from the tree, Adam and Eve hear God coming, so they hide. The first thing God says when he shows up is in Job 3:9 "The Lord God called out to the man and said to him, 'Where are you?'" How ironic!!! Shouldn't an all knowing God know where Adam is??? Why should he have to ask?

One last bible lesson. If you've read Job, you'll also see how your loving, compassionate God explains in Job 2:3 "....so you have incited ME against him to destroy him for no good reason." Here God admits that there is "no good reason" for destroying Job. But, we find God saying just after this in 2:6 "So the Lord said to the Adversary, 'See, he is in your power; only spare his life.'" What a dick. God himself says there is no good reason to keep trashing Job's life, but lets the Adversary do it anyway over a childish bet. What a selfish prick of a Yahweh we find here...

Remember that even if your Christian God does exist, I have the right to decide if he is worthy of my worship. If this is how he is going to behave....keep him for yourself. I'll find another God who isn't being childish.


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Agentvenom wrote:
JesusSaves wrote:

if you havn't read Job you can see that satan was the cause of jobs problems not God. though God allowed it to happen. but that doesn't mean that God did it.. not it was satan who did it brought job into misery.

Quote:
*sigh* Like 90% of Christians, you should repeat what you READ in the bible, not what you've heard about it. The bible says "the Adversary" is betting God that Job will blaspheme Him if his material possessions are taken away. It doesn't refer to "Satan", it refers to "the Adversary." The same can be said for Genesis. Many Christians love to say that "Satan" tempted Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Buzz! It says the "serpent" not "Satan." If you're going to be a Christian, at least get familiar with their texts. Stop using sloppy translations and read the original texts for what they say. Reading the NIV and King James versions are about as good as having me translate this post into Polish. (and no, I can't speak or write in Polish) I'll pull a few excerpts from a textbook to prove my point.

An opponent; an enemy.
Adversary The Devil; Satan. Often used with the.

often Serpent
In the Bible, the creature that tempted Eve.
Satan.
A subtle, sly, or treacherous person.

I'll quote: Job 1:6 "One day the divine beings presented themselves before the Lord, and the Adversary came along with them." Tada!

Just for fun: Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said to the woman, 'You are not going to die...'" Tada! Something else I find funny here. Right after they eat from the tree, Adam and Eve hear God coming, so they hide. The first thing God says when he shows up is in

Quote:
Job 3:9
in Job 3:9? do you mean genesis 3:9?

Quote:

"The Lord God called out to the man and said to him, 'Where are you?'" How ironic!!! Shouldn't an all knowing God know where Adam is??? Why should he have to ask?

of course if you knew this you would know that it was a rhetorical question

Quote:
One last bible lesson. If you've read Job, you'll also see how your loving, compassionate God explains in Job 2:3 "....so you have incited ME against him to destroy him for no good reason." Here God admits that there is "no good reason" for destroying Job. But, we find God saying just after this in 2:6 "So the Lord said to the Adversary, 'See, he is in your power; only spare his life.'" What a dick. God himself says there is no good reason to keep trashing Job's life, but lets the Adversary do it anyway over a childish bet. What a selfish prick of a Yahweh we find here...

sorry you feel like God did that for no reason.. I've read it many times and never once came into my mind as God being evil.

Quote:
Remember that even if your Christian God does exist, I have the right to decide if he is worthy of my worship. If this is how he is going to behave....keep him for yourself. I'll find another god who isn't being childish.

what will that be money? God is the only one worthy of worship. not a god like character. what will your God do? only do the things you like Him to do? then that wouldn't be a God at all.
I've been in many hard trials, the book of Job helped me understand that I am still a creation and not a creator for God says "Where were you when I laid the earths foundation?"

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:

I've been in many hard trials, the book of Job helped me understand that I am still a creation and not a creator for God says "Where were you when I laid the earths foundation?"

We were in the same place this God was: not there yet. The Judeo-Christian God sure as shit wasn't there either, or else it wouldn't have taken Humanity so long to come up with recognizing him. The Judeo-Christian God would have been there from the start, and self-evident to all humans. Or are we talking about the several hundred other religions humanity has made up that also claimed that their God was The Creator?

-=Grim=-

No Nyarlathotep, Know Peace.
Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.


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So basically, God ruined Job's life to win a bet with the devil. :roll:


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JesusSaves,

Read it for what it says! Don't apply what Christians have told you hundreds of years after it was written, or what you've acquired from some misguided translation. It says "Adversary." Yes, an opponent. It never says, nor implies "Satan" in any manner. Christians came along later and said, "oh, it was talking about Satan here!" Same with Genesis. (Yes, it was a typo, Job 3:9 was supposed to be Genesis 3:9)

My choosing a God has nothing to do with money. What are you talking about???

I DO feel that God did it for "no good reason" as he says so. Was God lying??? Why can't you read what it says, instead of reading it for what you want it to say?

Funny you mentioned "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth?" from Job. I'll copy and paste straight from the inifidels.org biblical contradictions webpage.

"Earth supported?
JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Sounds like a contradiction, no? Oh, of course not, I'm sure Christians have some bullshit apologetic response ready-made for you to buy into without applying any rational thought....

Further, all God is doing is being arrogant in this passage. He's just measuring dicks with Job and all that does is show how feeble-minded and juvenile this God is. It's sad, really....

It's funny how much more you can learn from a passage when you read it for what it actually says, instead of reading it for what you want it to say.


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MattShizzle wrote:
So basically, God ruined Job's life to win a bet with the devil. :roll:

With "the Adversary"....correct! Smiling


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JesusSaves wrote:
Hello Sapient and peace.

Quote:
Deuteronomy:
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Chastene or discipline him... or to teach him from wrong..

you'll have to read Deuteronomy 13:5 to understand this.

13:5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death. because he preached rebellion agianst the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Oh, by all means, don't forget the rest of it. It further proves Sapient's point.

13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

So, our loving God says that if ANYONE, including "thy son", daughter, wife, whatever, tries to lead you astray from Yahweh, then "thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." Further, he tells us the very reason you have to kill him: "And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you." God wants you to get others to believe in him via fear for their very life. If you believe in another God, don't tell us or we'll have to kill you. Remember, if ANYONE suggests another God to you, it is your obligation to kill him....even your son.

It's a harsh reality, but your God is a jealous God. I hope your son doesn't grow up to follow Islam....yikes! Have fun explaining this passage at the murder trial!

Further, Deut. 13:5 doesn't explain the first quoted passage. It says if your son will "not obey the voice of his father", beat him, and if that doesn't work, then take him to the elders, tell them he's a worthless bastard, and watch everyone stone him to death to "put evil away from among you." He's not a false prophet preaching of another God, or that one should rebel against God. So, Deut. 13:5 doesn't apply to him. Buzz!!! Disqualified!


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JesusSaves = 0
AgentVenom = 1

Even my ass hurts from that onslaught.

-=Grim=-


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MattShizzle wrote:
So basically, God ruined Job's life to win a bet with the devil. :roll:

Yeah, the Christian God's a dick.

Which one is more evil: The guy who says "Hey! Kill that guys family!" Or the guy who actually does it?

Wilson: "We were afraid that if you found out you solved a case with absolutely no medical evidence you'd think you were God." House: "God doesn't limp."


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GrimJesta wrote:
JesusSaves = 0
AgentVenom = 1

Even my ass hurts from that onslaught.

-=Grim=-

I woulda figured me and the Poling brothers for at least a point or two by now. Evil Damn, what's a brotha gotta do to score up in this piece.

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Quote:

Read it for what it says! Don't apply what Christians have told you hundreds of years after it was written, or what you've acquired from some misguided translation. It says "Adversary." Yes, an opponent. It never says, nor implies "Satan" in any manner. Christians came along later and said, "oh, it was talking about Satan here!" Same with Genesis. (Yes, it was a typo, Job 3:9 was supposed to be Genesis 3:9)

hope your not serious? lol... I am not going to answer agianst your folly because your just trying to pick a arguement.

Quote:
My choosing a God has nothing to do with money. What are you talking about???

what is your god going to be.. money, a statue, or what?

Quote:
I DO feel that God did it for "no good reason" as he says so. Was God lying??? Why can't you read what it says, instead of reading it for what you want it to say?

Quote:
Funny you mentioned "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the Earth?" from Job. I'll copy and paste straight from the inifidels.org biblical contradictions webpage.

well then you get your sources from people who actually want to destroy Christianity rather than from yourself.. why don't you understand what it says. you don't think many people havn't looked at the verse and not understand what God is saying.

Quote:
"Earth supported?
JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Sounds like a contradiction, no? Oh, of course not, I'm sure Christians have some bullshit apologetic response ready-made for you to buy into without applying any rational thought....

no.. I just don't see your contradiction. it is talking about God creating the world with His power. please tell me what is the contradiction

Quote:
Further, all God is doing is being arrogant in this passage. He's just measuring dicks with Job and all that does is show how feeble-minded and juvenile this God is. It's sad, really....

He is telling Job that God infact has a plan for everything. nothing is out of course on Gods plan. even Job some good things came out of his trials. I know for one me going through trials you get to know who your true friends are.. and when they say God sticks closer than anyone. it is true.

Quote:
It's funny how much more you can learn from a passage when you read it for what it actually says, instead of reading it for what you want it to say

but you just told me you got it from a site..

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Quote:
It's a harsh reality, but your God is a jealous God. I hope your son doesn't grow up to follow Islam....yikes! Have fun explaining this passage at the murder trial!

don't see the problem here.. I always knew God was a jealous God.but He is also loving

Quote:
Further, Deut. 13:5 doesn't explain the first quoted passage. It says if your son will "not obey the voice of his father", beat him, and if that doesn't work, then take him to the elders, tell them he's a worthless bastard, and watch everyone stone him to death to "put evil away from among you." He's not a false prophet preaching of another God, or that one should rebel against God. So, Deut. 13:5 doesn't apply to him. Buzz!!! Disqualified!

I am actually confuse right now.. my relationship with God is more important than my relationship with a idoltry person. if that better understands your "theory"

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:

what is your god going to be.. money, a statue, or what?

ummmm how about not having a god at all? :roll:

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what is the fullfillment of life? what fullfills the human soul? is it having all the money in the world? or is it having all the friends he can get?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:
what is the fullfillment of life? what fullfills the human soul? is it having all the money in the world? or is it having all the friends he can get?

It's whatever you make of it. Whatever you want from it. Do you strive to have all the money in the world? If so, pursue it. Do you strive to have many friends? If so, pursue it. People fulfill their life with whatever they want, you do it right now, you just don't realize it because you have Jesus goggles on.

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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
It's a harsh reality, but your God is a jealous God. I hope your son doesn't grow up to follow Islam....yikes! Have fun explaining this passage at the murder trial!

don't see the problem here.. I always knew God was a jealous God.but He is also loving

A friend of mine had a jealous boyfriend who beat the fuck out of her on several occasions. She thought he loved her too.

Now, if you call "Don't ever leave me or I'll kill you and torture you for eternity" love, let's just say that you and I don't share the same attitude toward love.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:
don't see the problem here.. I always knew God was a jealous God.but He is also loving

Quote:
I am actually confuse right now.. my relationship with God is more important than my relationship with a idoltry person. if that better understands your "theory"

For the first post, I mean that you would have to kill him if he ever mentioned that you should check Islam out. It's not a happy reality. Remember, read the bible for what it says.

I'm not good at reading broken English, but apparently you are confused about what a "theory" is. One man can't create a "theory", one man creates a "hypothesis" and the scientific community creates a "theory." When a hypothesis has been tested repeatedly, sent out into the scientific community, further tested, and has withstood rigorous testing from others, it becomes a "theory." So, now I'm confused as to what you are even talking about???


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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:

hope your not serious? lol... I am not going to answer agianst your folly because your just trying to pick a arguement.

No, I'm demonstrating that you're believing what Christianity tells you it says, not what the text says directly.

Quote:
what is your god going to be.. money, a statue, or what?

Who needs a God anyway? I'm not certain that humankind is bad enough that we NEED to be saved. Saved from what? A hell that can't be shown to exist? How irrational....

Quote:
well then you get your sources from people who actually want to destroy Christianity rather than from yourself.. why don't you understand what it says. you don't think many people havn't looked at the verse and not understand what God is saying.

no.. I just don't see your contradiction. it is talking about God creating the world with His power. please tell me what is the contradiction

Okay, here it is from bible.com:

Job 26:7: 7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.
Job 38:4: 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

Ummm, if you don't see a problem here, you're not thinking it through. When you build something, say a building, some structure, whatever, you "lay a foundation" to support it. The very fact that it has a "foundation" means it is build upon something. But, in 26:7, it says he "suspends the earth over nothing." So, something can't be suspended over nothing if it has a foundation under it. Further, if it has a foundation it resides upon, it is not suspended nor hanging. Understand? You can't hang a clock on the floor. It is either hanging, or supported by the floor, but not both. Further, you have to remember that at a given point in history, the world thought to be flat and supported by pillars. Heck, even the Flat Earth Society still exists. Of course, that idea was wrong.

Regardless of where the material comes from, it's the interpretation that counts. I made the same point using a pro-Christian website as I did using the infidels.org webpage; that the bible has contradictions based on a passage you pointed out. Smiling

Quote:
He is telling Job that God infact has a plan for everything. nothing is out of course on Gods plan. even Job some good things came out of his trials. I know for one me going through trials you get to know who your true friends are.. and when they say God sticks closer than anyone. it is true.

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that. Because if God has a plan for everything, he must be both all-powerful to put it into motion and all-knowing to know exactly how that plan will work for eternity, right?

What good did Job receive, twice his Earthly possessions? God replaced his kids with new ones and gave him more wealth. But, "Why did God even fuck with Job in the first place?" is the question you keep skipping over. God did it over a silly bet and God had "no good reason" to destroy him. Further, God punished Job's friends because God said they were wrong and were lying to Job in telling Job that he must have pissed God off. PLEASE READ THE STORY! Didn't God make Job's friends perform sacrifices in Job's name? Didn't God say that his friends were wrong, that Job had done no wrong, and that Job was right all along when he said God was doing it for no good reason? Weren't the "chestnuts of conventional wisdom" they offered inapplicable to Job, as they had the situation wrong?

Quote:
but you just told me you got it from a site..

What difference does that make? All I did was copy and paste a few bible verses. You mean to tell me the verses change meaning based on where they originate??? That's highly illogical. The source doesn't matter. The interpretation matters.


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JesusSaves wrote:
what is the fullfillment of life? what fullfills the human soul? is it having all the money in the world? or is it having all the friends he can get?

You can fulfill your life using whatever makes you happy. But, as for the "human soul".....prove that one exists--since you brought it up--and I'll answer your question with my opinion. What's a soul look like? Have you ever seen one? Can you touch it? What about the soul is capable of existing? How could you prove to anyone that a "soul" exists? What evidence would you use?


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Sapient wrote:
GrimJesta wrote:
JesusSaves = 0
AgentVenom = 1

Even my ass hurts from that onslaught.

-=Grim=-

I woulda figured me and the Poling brothers for at least a point or two by now. Evil Damn, what's a brotha gotta do to score up in this piece.

Fuck it, I'll break mine in half and we can share... *snap* (tosses half to Sapient)


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Quote:

It's whatever you make of it. Whatever you want from it. Do you strive to have all the money in the world? If so, pursue it. Do you strive to have many friends? If so, pursue it. People fulfill their life with whatever they want, you do it right now, you just don't realize it because you have Jesus goggles on.

what happens when you do reach your full amount of the money that is in the world? its kind of like I want to buy a cd. why? so I can be happy but a week later after I buy a cd the cd becomes old or isn't what I thought it was when I bought it.
a person travels a lot because he wants to fullfill his life but at the end of the day is he really doing anything to fullfill it? yeah ok he just visited rome thats it. the point is once you reach the top you get bored.
by design people are designed to want more than what they can get in life.
the Soul- is the source of our thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Quote:
A friend of mine had a jealous boyfriend who beat the fuck out of her on several occasions. She thought he loved her too.

Now, if you call "Don't ever leave me or I'll kill you and torture you for eternity" love, let's just say that you and I don't share the same attitude toward love.

well again that isn't what he does, would like to bring a life story:
picture yourself walking along the road. you have two hands I hope. God is on your right hand (pursue) and well later you meet someone you like which she is on your left hand. (they represent a fork in the road)
if you go with her life will be great but then again you'll end up either one. wanting more than what you want or two empti. but going to the right with God you can have whatever.-------- but you say no to the right and try to pursue the left. now the right is stronger than the left so there fore the rigth gets jealous and then ruins the relationship your having with the left.
infact, you may say it sounds horrible for God to do it but I say it isn't.
but the point of the story is yes God is jealous and he'll let you know but he isn't going to beat anyone up for anything he'll let you pursue what you want but since he isn't in it it will all crash down on you.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


Yellow_Number_Five
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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
A friend of mine had a jealous boyfriend who beat the fuck out of her on several occasions. She thought he loved her too.

Now, if you call "Don't ever leave me or I'll kill you and torture you for eternity" love, let's just say that you and I don't share the same attitude toward love.

well again that isn't what he does,

Yes, it is. If you leave Jesus for another God or religion or no God at all, where do you go?

Remember, thou shalt have no Gods before him and no man gets to the Father except through Him.

Quote:
picture yourself walking along the road. you have two hands I hope.

What if for the sake of argument I told you I was born without limbs? Who would be responsible for that?

Quote:
God is on your right hand (pursue) and well later you meet someone you like which she is on your left hand. (they represent a fork in the road)
if you go with her life will be great but then again you'll end up either one. wanting more than what you want or two empti. but going to the right with God you can have whatever.

I am sick and fucking tired of Christians telling me my life is empty without God. My life is more full now than ever. I am more content now than I've ever been. Please stop telling me how I feel.

Quote:
-------- but you say no to the right and try to pursue the left. now the right is stronger than the left so there fore the rigth gets jealous and then ruins the relationship your having with the left.

So, why hasn't that happened yet? Why am I still with the empty mistress of atheism? Why are billions of others in no religion at all or worshipping somebody other than Jesus?

I am also sick and fucking tired of Christians telling me I'll eventually come back to Christ. No, I won't, not unless you convince me through empirical evidence - I cannot be bought by emotional pleading any longer.

Quote:
infact, you may say it sounds horrible for God to do it but I say it isn't.

Why am I not surprised you can rationalize any behavior for your God that comes up? Behaviors you'd find repugnant in your fellow human beings, you readily accept from God. Why the double standard?

Quote:
but the point of the story is yes God is jealous and he'll let you know but he isn't going to beat anyone up for anything he'll let you pursue what you want but since he isn't in it it will all crash down on you.

And then after that, he'll send you to hell for eternal punishment.

Yay, God!

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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JesusSaves wrote:

Soul- is the source of our thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

If that was for me....I'm wondering how that was proof??? How can you prove the "soul" is indeed responsible, not just chemicals in your brain?


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Heh, I could have predicted exactly what you guys were going to say, but it's great to hear you say it. I love it! Keep these audio replies up, please!