AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Sapient
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Kirk is the first in a long line of upcoming audio responses. Listen in and discuss these mailbag pieces in these threads.

Kirk writes us:

Quote:

well all I have to say is... well you don't believe in God.. well then that isn't my problem.. just sure hope your right.

Kirk also commented on our profile:

Quote:

One. if you were even a pro at skepticism then you would know that the people of the Bible actually existed.
which in that case then Solomon one of the wises man of the Bible. once said
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
Two. you think that we believe in it blindly? well then your certainly wrong cause there have been more proofs over the Bible than any other book.
A. the Witnesses accounts.
B. Bet you can't explain Pauls Conversion which is talked about in Acts.
C. then the deaths of the Apostles- each died a martyrd death. why would they die for a lie?

Here is Kirks profile: http://www.myspace.com/prisonerofjoy

Here is our audio response: http://www.rationalresponders.com/media/Mailbag/Kirk6-26-06.mp3

- Brian Sapient


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Hey, this new idea is cool! Cool


Sapient
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

We originally saw The Infidel Guy doing this on a regular basis, and it was some of his best stuff. So here's to IG, for the idea (at least where we first spotted it).

- Brian Sapient


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JesusSaves
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Sorry, can't listen to it.. my audio is mess up.. but I would like to know what it says.. really.


Sapient
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

JesusSaves wrote:
Sorry, can't listen to it.. my audio is mess up.. but I would like to know what it says.. really.

Apparently Jesus doesn't want you to hear it, or your audio would work. Maybe pray? Or better yet, how bout trying to fix your audio, maybe with the help of a computer technician? Naw... you'd probably prefer to just pray, eh? Smiling

Oh, FWIW we put it in audio, so we wouldn't have to type it out.

In Reason,

Sapient

- Brian Sapient


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Sapient
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Kirk responds in email:

"you obviously have no clue what the word Faith means and that you can't stop Jesus Christ." - Kirk

Anyone want to take that?

- Brian Sapient


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SAVAGE
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

*looks around*

*looks under desk*

*looks at ceiling*

*looks inside filing cabinet*

*looks inside porn...errr sock drawer*

Nope, no Geeebus, lets say that Geeebus existed (I am pretty sure he didnt though).....hes dead...how much more stopped do you want him to be!!

A MESSAGE TO ALL THEISTS:

 

CRY ME A RIVER

 

BUILD ME A BRIDGE

 

BUT IN THE NAME OF NOTHING GET OVER IT.


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I found Jesus, he was behind the couch the whole time! \o/


MattShizzle
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***Snicker****

That reminds me of on a site I'm on, a moslem was complaining that he couldn't respond quick enough because his modem speed was too slow. An atheist said back why don't he pray to Allah to increase his modem speed. He said that's a good idea! He'd pray to Allah, and Allah would increase his speed! Laughing out loud

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Samuel
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

I prefer to call "Pascal's Wager" "Pascal's Threat" myself.


JesusSaves
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oh, that is real nice guys, actually my sound card as been mess up for a while. ever since I came back from falls creek a couple of weeks ago.

but may I ask you why do you believe what you believe?

I mean I can give you proof that God existed but I can't change your minds for you. because that is between you and God alone.

but one of the reasons why I believe and I put my trust in God is because I've got rid of a long term addiction. been a year now since I've done it.

and ever since I have been a really close person to the Word.

there is also another reason why I believe but I won't say it right now...

I want to ask you why you believe that there isn't. and how and why you think we got here.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Erm...if someone could have ever provided or provide proof of any god's existence, then we wouldn't be atheists.


Sapient
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JesusSaves wrote:

but may I ask you why do you believe what you believe?

Referring to what specifically? Whatever topic your referring to, the usual answer would be that we believe what we believe because we can make logical inferences or deductions to show us our beliefs hold some validity. Often science has a lot to do with what we believe and if it doesn't hold up then we likely aren't inclined to believe it.

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I mean I can give you proof that God existed but I can't change your minds for you. because that is between you and God alone.

Obviously it's up to us, and all of us would instantly believe in God if you could give us proof that he exists. Feel free to be the first, we're very open minded, and are not above being proven wrong.

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but one of the reasons why I believe and I put my trust in God is because I've got rid of a long term addiction. been a year now since I've done it.

Congrats, glad you did that. You should listen to the first half of show 4 by clicking "PLAY PAST SHOWS" above, we speak on that for a moment. One of the things we mention is how we find it amazing that people who think that God helped get them out of an addiction had nothing to do with getting them addicted in the first place. Overcoming an addiction by lying to yourself that an invisible power controls you and not yourself is not proof of god, merely proof that corrupt men exist who would brainwash you for positive reasons.

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and ever since I have been a really close person to the Word.

It's really ashame that most of our addiction clinics choose the time when you're at your lowest in life to prey upon you with their archaic god belief that isn't founded in reason, science, or rationality. Once again, you do realize if God got you out of your rut, he also put you in it. If you claim free will put you in, you can't have it both ways and say God got you out. There is no proof for God, and one could just as easily assume that it was God that put you in the rut, and you yourself that got you out.

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there is also another reason why I believe but I won't say it right now...

Oh feel free, the first reason wasn't any good, maybe the second one will be a little better.

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I want to ask you why you believe that there isn't. and how and why you think we got here.

Got 10 hours? Wanna come on our show and talk to us about it instead, and ask us a bunch of questions? I can give you a short answer, and that's all I'm willing to do in text for now.

First off, I don't believe that there isn't a god. Not for the purposes of what I'm about to say at least. What I do believe is that there is no rational, logical, honest, intellectual reason/excuse to believe in a god. We aren't fighting for people to be atheist, we are fighting for them not to be theist.

Let me ask you a question... Do you believe in Zeus or Poseidon? Why not? When you figure out why you don't believe in those gods, you'll have a better idea why I don't believe in yours.

As for the question, how did we get here... The question is unimportant for now. Just because we don't have the perfect scientific answer to explain every fact about how we came into existence doesn't give someone an excuse to believe in Invisible Pink Unicorns (or in your case: God), while we wait for an answer. Years ago religion taught us that the Earth was flat, much later Science proved otherwise. Years ago religion taught us that the Earth was the center of the Universe and the sun revolved around us, and later Science proved otherwise. Now, religion teaches us God created the Universe, have we not learned anything from history? Explaining away what we don't know yet by saying "God did it" is irrational, and that is where your question takes us.

With all that said, there are some major breakthoughs in Big Bang and other theories as to how our Universe was created, we could talk about them on a show with you if you would like. Or you can read, there is plenty of information online.

- Brian Sapient


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JesusSaves
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well unlike the greek myth, which says it is a myth, the Bible says it is truth. don't get me wrong here when I say it is truth.. not wanting to put as if I am trying to lay it down on you as I said before it is by your will and your will only.

But I guess I should really say it wasn't God who put me in that position it was me God can't be tempted by evil.

if you havn't read Job you can see that satan was the cause of jobs problems not God. though God allowed it to happen. but that doesn't mean that God did it.. not it was satan who did it brought job into misery.

now I had a addiction I would like to say what it was but not sure if it is good to say.. I will call it M... that is about as close as I can say right now.

I had for 3 years, I always tried to stop during my three years of it. never could-- I would probablly go a day or 2 if I was lucky without doing it but never could I go as long as I have now. which is a year.

became a christian last april.. asked alot of people about me being a christian while still in that addiction. but people told me wouldn't want to do something that God can see. so I went a month or so without worries about it.. still in my addiction.. 5 times daily maybe 6. then the summer came and my dad forced me to go to Church camp.. after church camp I came home thinking was free from my addiction and that I wouldn't do it again...since I felt loved and accepted.. but I was wrong of course the first day I came back I did it.. I was like wow. this stinks.. so then I prayed in the shower-- then after a day of thinking I was free I did it again... which I prayed again and after that I have not done it..

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:
well unlike the greek myth, which says it is a myth, the Bible says it is truth.

Modern day people call it myth, Christians call it myth, people actually believed in Osiris back in Egypt. Why don't you believe in Osiris? Just because you call it myth doesn't make it so, for if it did I could say the Jesus myth, and poof, you'd have to admit it's myth.

Quote:
don't get me wrong here when I say it is truth.. not wanting to put as if I am trying to lay it down on you as I said before it is by your will and your will only.

Agreed, it's our will. I happen to be honest with myself and believe in things only with proof, it's not up to me to prove it exists... that's your job, you're supposed to witness to me if you believe that load of crankery called the Bible.

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But I guess I should really say it wasn't God who put me in that position it was me God can't be tempted by evil.

God can't be tempted by evil? Who cares, God actually created evil. Don't lie to yourself man, God put you in that rut. Don't lie to yourself.

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if you havn't read Job you can see that satan was the cause of jobs problems not God.

Who created Satan knowing every single thing that Satan would do before he created them? Answer that question and you'll know who was responsible for getting you addicted.

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though God allowed it to happen. but that doesn't mean that God did it.. not it was satan who did it brought job into misery.

God knew everything that Satan would do, God created Satan knowing everything he would do. If God is all powerful he could've changed his plan and take Satan out of it before he brought Satan into creation. He brought Satan into existence with a purpose, and one of those purposes was to get you addicted. That God of yours really loves you. Think. No lies, be honest with yourself and think.

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now I had a addiction I would like to say what it was but not sure if it is good to say.. I will call it M... that is about as close as I can say right now.

You can say meth here.

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I had for 3 years, I always tried to stop during my three years of it. never could-- I would probablly go a day or 2 if I was lucky without doing it but never could I go as long as I have now. which is a year.

became a christian last april.. asked alot of people about me being a christian while still in that addiction. but people told me wouldn't want to do something that God can see. so I went a month or so without worries about it.. still in my addiction.. 5 times daily maybe 6. then the summer came and my dad forced me to go to Church camp.. after church camp I came home thinking was free from my addiction and that I wouldn't do it again...since I felt loved and accepted.. but I was wrong of course the first day I came back I did it.. I was like wow. this stinks.. so then I prayed in the shower-- then after a day of thinking I was free I did it again... which I prayed again and after that I have not done it..

Your evidence doesn't prove God. In fact if I understand your story correctly you believed in God for quite some time, and then out of nowhere you stopped doing "M." Sounds as if your story closer proves that you did it on your own, than God doing it. Not that it conclusively proves either.

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JesusSaves
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well then Masterbation and meth are to different things...

and well as you can see I came totally unprepared... to witness to you... I am not witnessing I am telling you about the Love that I have for the God.
can evolution teach people about love? can it teach people about emotions. no

while I grow in my faith my love for him grows. you think I actually believe in God blindly? where you there when I got rid of my addiction? have you had a addiction that stopped please tell me? would like to know.

what makes the Bible, I believe, different from other theries is the fact that the Bible was compromized over a number of years thousands actually..

and other books based on my research.. were founded based off of no proof... at all but only calling it proof.

if you think about it... yes saying God exist isn't all that hard to say-- I mean a god-- superity, famous, can do anything he wants... but then saying that a God came down as a human being and died and then 3 days later rosed again... now who will make this stuff up... if you think about it theses stories would have vanished long ago if they were made up.. but they weren't..

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Just because you got over drugs does not mean a God helped you got over them, it means you got over drugs, nothing more, nothing less.

If you wish to add to that you must then supply futher evidence showing a God or supernatural force getting involved. Until you do, you are just a damn, dirty liar. Welcome to the world of "logic." If you make a claim, you support it or you get labeled as what you are: "Stupid." Harsh? Too bad. Deal with reality or reality will deal with you.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, you ACTUALLY tried to prove God existed by showing the belief can lead to teachings of love? Logical fallacy alert! Appeal to emotion and appeal to outcome. Just because belief in one thing may lead to some emotion or some outcome you desire DOESN'T PROVE WHAT YOUR ARE BELIEVING.

And for the record, a lot of other things can teach love. You don't need myths to teach love.

Darwin's book doesn't teach love! He wasn't trying to! He was teaching a scientific observation! You can't actually be trying to say nothing secular teaches love by pointing out ONE thing secular that doesn't even make an attempt to!

Atheists can just as easily believe in and teach compassion as a theist. Just they don't have to make up supernatural excuses.

Oh, for Pete's sake, you then go on to try and justify the Bible with another logical fallacy. Argumentum ad antiquitem, argument or appeal to tradition or age. Google it, it's a logical fallacy, no joke, do it.

Just because something has been around for a while does not mean it is either good or bad, it means one thing: IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE. Slavery was around for a LONG time, that did not mean it was justified. Belief in OTHER religions have been around for a long time, even today there are hundreds of religions still going on that are incompatible with Christianity. Does that mean they must be true to?

You said it, pal! You said if it's around for so long without going away "it must be true!" Belief that if you die killing an infidel you'll go to enteral paradice has been around longer than Christianity and people are STILL flying planes into towers these days!

YOU SAID IT. If it's been around for so long it MUST BE TRUE.
Why aren't you worshipping Allah? Why aren't you flying planes into towers, huh? You said it was true, JUST NOW.

Go on, dumbass, do it. Justify you fucking rediculous faith. Go on...

OR stop bullshitting your god damn, unsupported, unmeritted, illogical, LIFE COSTING SHIT YOU CALL ARGUMENTS.

It's people like you that cost lives. Terrorists have the same logic you do, you sick son of a bitch. Thanks ever so much for continueing the practice of hell on earth, moron.

MAN am I pissed...


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You have no idea how many people have said "I have proof of God" but then never share it with us. Obviously, you don't have any proof. The HONORABLE thing to do would be to just take a deep breath and just admit you are lying to us and lying to yourself. Because that's all you're doing. You are in denial, you have a disease. Stop lying.

Wilson: "We were afraid that if you found out you solved a case with absolutely no medical evidence you'd think you were God." House: "God doesn't limp."


Sapient
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JesusSaves wrote:
well then Masterbation and meth are to different things...

lol. A joke?

Quote:
and well as you can see I came totally unprepared... to witness to you... I am not witnessing I am telling you about the Love that I have for the God.

I wont bother with telling you about the love I have for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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can evolution teach people about love?

Indirectly, yes it can. We are all related, via DNA, scientifically proven. There's a reason to love your neighbor right there. In that respect evolution teaches us more about love and in a factual manner than a god that commands killing disobedient sons ever could.

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can it teach people about emotions.

These questions are ridiculous. God can't teach us about emotions anymore than pots and pans can, and evolution doesn't claim to be able to teach us about love or emotions.

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while I grow in my faith my love for him grows. you think I actually believe in God blindly?

Well yeah, any rational person who has any sort of critical thinking capacity can see that you have no evidence for your belief and that you believe in God blindly.

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where you there when I got rid of my addiction?

No, but we're not talking about if I was there. We're discussing if a God you have no evidence for was. And so far, we're still nowhere near proving he was there. Speaking from one evolutionary linked brother to another, just trying to keep it honest with ya, my man.

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have you had a addiction that stopped please tell me? would like to know

Yes, I've had several addictions in my life. Knowing that I am personally responsible for my own actions, and that I control my own destiny, not some invisible skydaddy, I've been able to get off my addictions on my own. There are no prayer stories so I'm not sure what you would like me to elaborate on if at all.

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what makes the Bible, I believe, different from other theries is the fact that the Bible was compromized over a number of years thousands actually..

You've misrepresented the history of the book slightly here, but even so, this makes the bible no more real than any other book. Again not proof of anything other than the fact that a few thousand years ago an old testament was written and then in about 300 CE a New Testament was compiled.

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and other books based on my research.. were founded based off of no proof... at all but only calling it proof.

Your bible is the same, it couldn't be more similar. Unless of course you can provide a real proof, your all talk. Which is what you accuse the other books of.

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if you think about it... yes saying God exist isn't all that hard to say--

Duh. Not hard to say at all. However it;s hard to prove that saying it and believing it are rational. You haven't done that.

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I mean a god-- superity, famous, can do anything he wants...

So he could've changed his plan with Satan and made it so you were never addicted to "M" ? Furthermore if he was all powerful he could've done it without affecting free will.

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but then saying that a God came down as a human being and died and then 3 days later rosed again...

You must ask yourself why an all knowing all powerful god would need to come down to Earth to sacrifice himself to himself so that others could escape the wrath of himself.

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now who will make this stuff up...

Men who want to capitalize on people and monopolize power and profit over the mostly ignorant and illiterate masses. (they were mostly illiterate at the time)

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if you think about it theses stories would have vanished long ago if they were made up.. but they weren't..

Like for example the story of Allah? So praise Allah! Allah is God!

Your logic defeats itself.

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JesusSaves
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Quote:
lol. A joke?

No no joke.

Quote:
I wont bother with telling you about the love I have for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

that is different from my love... with God

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Indirectly, yes it can. We are all related, via DNA, scientifically proven. There's a reason to love your neighbor right there. In that respect evolution teaches us more about love and in a factual manner than a god that commands killing disobedient sons ever could.

lol shouldn't bother with your rational story..
evolution teaches us that there is no consequences for your actions..
where does God say kill disobedient childrens?

if we weren't created then we have no needs for laws.

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These questions are ridiculous. God can't teach us about emotions anymore than pots and pans can, and evolution doesn't claim to be able to teach us about love or emotions
.

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Well yeah, any rational person who has any sort of critical thinking capacity can see that you have no evidence for your belief and that you believe in God blindly.

tell me who would die for a lie? would you make up a lie, even if you knew before you made it up you would have to die for it?

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No, but we're not talking about if I was there. We're discussing if a God you have no evidence for was. And so far, we're still nowhere near proving he was there. Speaking from one evolutionary linked brother to another, just trying to keep it honest with ya, my man.

I believe He was... now the believing I am using is fileo love

Quote:

Yes, I've had several addictions in my life. Knowing that I am personally responsible for my own actions, and that I control my own destiny, not some invisible skydaddy, I've been able to get off my addictions on my own. There are no prayer stories so I'm not sure what you would like me to elaborate on if at all.

so you'll know how hard it is to stop.. and how long you have go through a process to stop your addiction.. I mean it doesn't stop in a day..

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You've misrepresented the history of the book slightly here, but even so, this makes the bible no more real than any other book. Again not proof of anything other than the fact that a few thousand years ago an old testament was written and then in about 300 CE a New Testament was compiled.

if I am getting this... your saying the OT was made up (all together) at the same time and the NT was made up all together at the same time?

this would have to go back to the first part: would you die for a lie?

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Your bible is the same, it couldn't be more similar. Unless of course you can provide a real proof, your all talk. Which is what you accuse the other books of.

no actually the Bible was compromized in the crowds of cities..
unlike the other books where they were found in caves...

1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

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Duh. Not hard to say at all. However it;s hard to prove that saying it and believing it are rational. You haven't done that.

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So he could've changed his plan with Satan and made it so you were never addicted to "M" ? Furthermore if he was all powerful he could've done it without affecting free will.

well he never affected my free will.. as I was never christian before... or never cared to even look in a Bible. until I experienced that merical.

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You must ask yourself why an all knowing all powerful god would need to come down to Earth to sacrifice himself to himself so that others could escape the wrath of himself.

well first off I would like to say

There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away.

Christ died on the cross so God can look at Him the way He should look at me so God can show me how He loved me the way He should of loved him Christ.

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Men who want to capitalize on people and monopolize power and profit over the mostly ignorant and illiterate masses. (they were mostly illiterate at the time)

well actually Paul was broke after he became a follower of Jesus Christ.

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Like for example the story of Allah? So praise Allah! Allah is God!

Muhammad claimed to have found the revolation from Gabriel in a CAVE.. totally different from what the Bible is compromized from..

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


Sapient
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Quote:
Quote:
I wont bother with telling you about the love I have for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

that is different from my love... with God

And yet they're both the same in the sense that they are both with imaginary beings.

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evolution teaches us that there is no consequences for your actions..
where does God say kill disobedient childrens?

Evolution does not teach us such a thing. Stop speaking about evolution you clearly have no idea what it is or what it does. Study up on evolution which nowhere teaches us anything about ethics or morals. That's not the job of evolution.

Deuteronomy:
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

It also says it in Leviticus in a different fashion but I forget the passage. the mere fact that you ask the question is scary because it begs the question... You find nothing distasteful about the bible? Maybe read this. They don't teach you the horror stories in the bible when brainwashing you at addiction camp.

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tell me who would die for a lie? would you make up a lie, even if you knew before you made it up you would have to die for it?

You again are proving Allah is real. I guess the 19 hijackers on 9-11 died for the truth, because who the heck would die for a lie. This logic is childish and dishonest, and you know it. Admit it.

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Yes, I've had several addictions in my life. Knowing that I am personally responsible for my own actions, and that I control my own destiny, not some invisible skydaddy, I've been able to get off my addictions on my own. There are no prayer stories so I'm not sure what you would like me to elaborate on if at all.

so you'll know how hard it is to stop.. and how long you have go through a process to stop your addiction.. I mean it doesn't stop in a day..

If I want it to stop hard enough it does. You make choices. You tell yourself, I want to stop this, and then the next day you smoke a cigarette anyway, postponing til tommorrow. Afterall you've procastinated on term papers, might as well procrastinate on quitting smoking. However if you want it hard enough, if you force yourself not to have another you can do it. Will power is much more powerful than imaginary beings. And as Thomas Paine said (one of our founding fathers who despised Christianity for the ignorance it breeds) "My mind is my own Church." Our minds are extremely powerful, when you finally decide to quit for good, and your brain completely commits to it, you've quit.

Quote:

if I am getting this... your saying the OT was made up (all together) at the same time and the NT was made up all together at the same time?

this would have to go back to the first part: would you die for a lie?

Are you insinuating the writers of the bible died defending the bible? They didn't. They were the ones doing the killing. You have any clue how many murders the Church committed to keep the intellectual opposition silent so they could have their conspiracy? Read this and scroll down to see some of the murders Popes committed to erase those who knew better from the face of the Earth.

Once again, if nobody would die for a lie, then you just proved Allah to be real. Did you even read what Thomas wrote or are you selectively ignoring what proves you to be either ignorant or dishonest, or both?

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Your bible is the same, it couldn't be more similar. Unless of course you can provide a real proof, your all talk. Which is what you accuse the other books of.

no actually the Bible was compromized in the crowds of cities..
unlike the other books where they were found in caves...

1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

YOU STILL HAVEN'T PROVEN IT TO BE TRUE, IT'S JUST LIKE THE OTHER BOOKS. :smt104

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So he could've changed his plan with Satan and made it so you were never addicted to "M" ? Furthermore if he was all powerful he could've done it without affecting free will.

well he never affected my free will.. as I was never christian before... or never cared to even look in a Bible. until I experienced that merical.

It's called a "miracle." Now can you show some integrity and admit that if God is all powerful he could've prevented you from incinerating your brain with meth, by not putting Satan into the equation?

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well first off I would like to say

There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away.

This is retarded, please use your own thoughts not the ridiculous nonsense they teach you at Christian camp. Did you seek god? And did you turn away yet? No! What you're saying isn't true and you know it, you're just talking out of your asshole to make yourself feel better so you don't have to deal with reality. It's ok man, deal with reality. We don't have proof that God got you out of the rut, and if it was god, he put you in the rut in the first place. Just accept responsibility for the fact that you were strong enough to free yourself from your addiction. It's ok, we're here to show you more reality. But you have to take the first step. You did it on your own, you should be proud, embrace it, and drop the mental chains that enslave you to a life of dishonesty and ignorance.

Your not alone Savage just deconverted last month. There are people here who care, who can answer your questions. Just be honest with yourself!

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Christ died on the cross so God can look at Him the way He should look at me so God can show me how He loved me the way He should of loved him Christ.

He created a rule in which he had to come to life on Earth to kill himself (his son) and sacrifice himself to himself, so that others could escape the evil and tortorous wrath of himself. It wasn't love, it was psychotic mental retardation.... or maybe just maybe it's so utterly fucking stupid and impossible that it never happened at all.

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Men who want to capitalize on people and monopolize power and profit over the mostly ignorant and illiterate masses. (they were mostly illiterate at the time)

well actually Paul was broke after he became a follower of Jesus Christ.

Paul wasn't responsible for the founding of Christianity. More to come from Rook in a dissertation and in show 22 soon.

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Like for example the story of Allah? So praise Allah! Allah is God!

Muhammad claimed to have found the revolation from Gabriel in a CAVE.. totally different from what the Bible is compromized from..

Look at how dishonest you are. Look what you cut out. We weren't talking about differences in where the holy texts were found! You said "if you think about it these stories would have vanished long ago if they were made up.. but they weren't."

You were claiming that if these stories were made up they would've vanished, yet if that is true than Allah is real, Zoroaster is real, and all Hindus are right! Man your dishonesty is disgusting. See the harm of religion? Your forced to be dishonest in order to defend this. Dishonest to me and everyone here, but more importantly you're being dishonest to yourself.

Snap out of it.

- Brian Sapient


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JesusSaves
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Hello Sapient and peace.

Quote:
Deuteronomy:
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Chastene or discipline him... or to teach him from wrong..

you'll have to read Deuteronomy 13:5 to understand this.

13:5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death. because he preached rebellion agianst the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

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You again are proving Allah is real. I guess the 19 hijackers on 9-11 died for the truth, because who the heck would die for a lie. This logic is childish and dishonest, and you know it. Admit it.

well that is different from what I am saying, anyone nowadays can die for their religion, but it doesn't make it any more fact. what I am talking about is the desciples and the apostols- who skeptics say created the whole story- who died for the lie.. why would they die for it?

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If I want it to stop hard enough it does. You make choices. You tell yourself, I want to stop this, and then the next day you smoke a cigarette anyway, postponing til tommorrow. Afterall you've procastinated on term papers, might as well procrastinate on quitting smoking. However if you want it hard enough, if you force yourself not to have another you can do it. Will power is much more powerful than imaginary beings. And as Thomas Paine said (one of our founding fathers who despised Christianity for the ignorance it breeds) "My mind is my own Church." Our minds are extremely powerful, when you finally decide to quit for good, and your brain completely commits to it, you've quit.

I wasnt forcing myself to quit, it was almost as if I had no desire at all.

Quote:
Are you insinuating the writers of the bible died defending the bible? They didn't. They were the ones doing the killing. You have any clue how many murders the Church committed to keep the intellectual opposition silent so they could have their conspiracy? Read this and scroll down to see some of the murders Popes committed to erase those who knew better from the face of the Earth.

Once again, if nobody would die for a lie, then you just proved Allah to be real. Did you even read what Thomas wrote or are you selectively ignoring what proves you to be either ignorant or dishonest, or both?

Quote:
YOU STILL HAVEN'T PROVEN IT TO BE TRUE, IT'S JUST LIKE THE OTHER BOOKS. :smt104

why are the witnesses there? to be questioned.

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It's called a "miracle." Now can you show some integrity and admit that if God is all powerful he could've prevented you from incinerating your brain with meth, by not putting Satan into the equation?

well yes God can do anything. But the reason why He let satan do that was so that I might seek Him.

2Corinthians 12:7-8
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, " My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

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This is retarded, please use your own thoughts not the ridiculous nonsense they teach you at Christian camp. Did you seek god? And did you turn away yet? No! What you're saying isn't true and you know it, you're just talking out of your asshole to make yourself feel better so you don't have to deal with reality. It's ok man, deal with reality. We don't have proof that God got you out of the rut, and if it was god, he put you in the rut in the first place. Just accept responsibility for the fact that you were strong enough to free yourself from your addiction. It's ok, we're here to show you more reality. But you have to take the first step. You did it on your own, you should be proud, embrace it, and drop the mental chains that enslave you to a life of dishonesty and ignorance.

Your not alone Savage just deconverted last month. There are people here who care, who can answer your questions. Just be honest with yourself!

the verse is simpy understood that there is no one who understands God and there is no one who understands right. yes of course I seek God.

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He created a rule in which he had to come to life on Earth to kill himself (his son) and sacrifice himself to himself, so that others could escape the evil and tortorous wrath of himself. It wasn't love, it was psychotic mental retardation.... or maybe just maybe it's so utterly fucking stupid and impossible that it never happened at all.

what if your wrong? Puzzled:

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Paul wasn't responsible for the founding of Christianity. More to come from Rook in a dissertation and in show 22 soon.

He was a soldier who seeked Christians to kill them.

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Look at how dishonest you are. Look what you cut out. We weren't talking about differences in where the holy texts were found! You said "if you think about it these stories would have vanished long ago if they were made up.. but they weren't."

You were claiming that if these stories were made up they would've vanished, yet if that is true than Allah is real, Zoroaster is real, and all Hindus are right! Man your dishonesty is disgusting. See the harm of religion? Your forced to be dishonest in order to defend this. Dishonest to me and everyone here, but more importantly you're being dishonest to yourself.

Christianity is based on the resurrection the God that we follow is involved in the world.
the founder, Jesus , who was God in human flesh, dwelt among me.
unlike many other religions whose founders seem to have recieved their book while in a remote destination.
God worked through men showing them where- ever when-ever with so many people around.
So Christianity is based on the resurrection backed up by eye witnesses or similar people. So it would be hard to come up with storys of something so magnificent out of no where and decieve many people.
Who is going to make up a story out of the blue about a person being born of a virgin died and rosed again? its like you saying that there was an ant that was as big as a car and could talk. no one would believe you and you wouldn't even bother to tell people that unless it really happened.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


Sapient
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

JesusSaves wrote:

13:5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death. because he preached rebellion agianst the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

That passage actually doesn't pertain to the one I posted.

Quote:

well that is different from what I am saying, anyone nowadays can die for their religion, but it doesn't make it any more fact. what I am talking about is the desciples and the apostols- who skeptics say created the whole story- who died for the lie.. why would they die for it?

You still have the same problem. Why would the 9-11 hijackers die for a lie?

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well yes God can do anything. But the reason why He let satan do that was so that I might seek Him.

Do you know the effects of meth on the brain? I'm guessing meth, but maybe you should specify what "m" is. My point would be, that I don't find it loving that God would allow you to have a decayed brain for the rest of your life just so you could seek him. There are plenty of other ways to have people seek god. Or better yet, if God wants us to believe in him so bad, he could just plant us all with knowledge of him at birth. The 9-11 tragedy wouldn't have occcured and the Crusades wouldn't have happened if we all knew at birth about God and which God is real. An all powerful god could do this, without affecting free will.

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He created a rule in which he had to come to life on Earth to kill himself (his son) and sacrifice himself to himself, so that others could escape the evil and tortorous wrath of himself. It wasn't love, it was psychotic mental retardation.... or maybe just maybe it's so utterly fucking stupid and impossible that it never happened at all.

what if your wrong? Puzzled:

What if you are? Don't tell me well then nothing happens. We're back to Pascals Wager again. You will have wasted your entire life on a lie, and worse off you might have the wrong god.

Quote:

So Christianity is based on the resurrection backed up by eye witnesses or similar people.

Name one eye witness who wrote about the resurrection of Jesus in the lifetime of Jesus. Keeping in mind that when you cant find a single person, think how ridiculous it would be to see someone fly into the sky a few days after they died and not a single person wrote it down.

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So it would be hard to come up with storys of something so magnificent out of no where and decieve many people.

No it wouldn't. Especially if you murdered anyone who didn't agree with you. Did you look at the lists of people killed by the Popes?

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Who is going to make up a story out of the blue about a person being born of a virgin died and rosed again?

It wasn't made up out of the blue. It was a direct copy of other previous myths. Take a look at Raglans Hero Scale:

Quote:

Lord Raglan in his book The Hero/A Study in Tradition, Myth, and Drama, first published in 1936 by Methuen & Co., Ltd.

In the chapter ?The Hero,? Fitzroy Richard Somerset 4th Baron Raglan (whose great-grandfather invented the raglan sleeve) lists 22 common events in the myths and lives of well-known folk heroes of tradition, as follows:
(1) The hero?s mother is a royal virgin;
(2) His father is a king, and
(3) Often a near relative of his mother, but
(4) The circumstances of his conception are unusual,
and
(5) He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
(6) At birth an attempt is made to kill the hero, usually by his father or his maternal grand-father, but
(7) He is spirited away, and
(Cool He is raised by foster parents in a faraway country.
(9) We are told nothing about the hero?s child-hood, but
(10) On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
(11) After a victory over the king and/or a giant, a dragon, or a wild beast,
(12) The hero marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor, and
(13) He becomes king.
(14) For a time the hero reigns uneventfully, and
(15) Prescribes laws, but
(16) Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
(17) He is driven from the throne and the city, after which
(18) He meets with a mysterious death,
(19) Often at the top of a hill.
(20) The hero?s children, if any, do not succeed him.
(21) The hero?s body is not buried, but nevertheless
(22) He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Lord Raglan then goes on to apply the folk-hero pattern
to a number of literary heroes and identifies the number
of matches with each one, as follows:

Apollo?the son of Zeus, who was almost killed at birth and who is one of the most important Olympian gods of Greek mythology (11 points).

King Arthur?popular medieval legend and subject of modern-day Broadway musicals and films, who was raised in a distant land, won a magical victory, died by a conspiracy against him, was not buried, but has a holy sepulchre (19 points).

Asclepius?legendary Greek physician, son of Apollo and god of medicine, who was nearly killed at birth, his burial place was unknown, but who had a number of holy sepulchres (12 points).

Bellerophone?a hero in Greek mythology, who killed the monster Chimera with the help of the winged horse Pegasus, went into exile, and attempted an ascent to the sky (16 points).

Dionysus?the god of fertility and wine in Greek mythology and later considered a patron of the arts, who was almost killed at birth, went into exile, ascended to Olympus, and had no burial place, but numerous
shrines and temples (19 points).

Elijah?Hebrew prophet in the reign of King Ahab and an outstanding figure in the Old Testament, whose body was not buried, but who had a holy sepulchre (9 points).

Hercules?most popular of the Greek heroes, who was famous for his strength and courage, who was reputed to be the son of Zeus, and whose body disappeared after his death (17 points).

Jason?one of the greatest heroes of Greek mythology, who assembled the Argonauts, searched for the Golden Fleece, and after his death was worshiped at shrines (15points).

Joseph?the favored son of Jacob and Rachel in the Bible, who was raised in Egypt and wore the coat of many colors (12 points).

Llew Llawgyffes?a Celtic hero, whose mother was a royal virgin, who won magical victories with his father?s help, and who flew off in the form of an eagle after his death (17 points).

Moses?the Hebrew lawgiver and the prototype of the Biblical prophets, who was almost killed at birth, gained a series of magical victories over Pharaoh, and who disappeared mysteriously from the top of a mountain
(20 points).

Nyikang?the cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile in Africa, who disappeared mysteriously, was not buried, and had a number of holy sepulchres (14 points).

Oedipus?the hero in Greek mythology who solved the riddle of the Sphinx, married his own mother, was driven into exile, and also became known for the Oedipus Complex (19 points).

Pelops?a hero in Greek mythology, who was murdered by his father, served at a banquet for the gods, brought back to life, given an ivory shoulder to replace the one eaten by Demeter, and for whom Peloponnesus was named (13 points).

Perseus?a hero in Greek mythology, who was the son of Zeus, set afloat in a chest as a child, and aided by the gods in killing Medusa (18 points).

Robin Hood?the legendary 12th-century English hero who robbed from the rich, lived in Sherwood Forest with his band of outlaws, and helped the poor (13 points).

Romulus?the founder of Rome in Roman legend along with his twin brother Remus, whom Romulus killed after a quarrel (18 points).

Siegfried?also known as Sigurd, a folk hero of early and medieval Germanic mythology in the Volsungasaga and the Niebelungen, who became a ruler, but was killed after a plot against him (11 points).

Theseus?an Athenian hero in Greek mythology, who killed the Minotaur, instituted several reforms, and was rescued by Hercules after he was imprisoned in Hades (20 points).

Watu Gunung?a Javanese folk hero, whose life bears a striking resemblance to the Oedipus myth and who also goes to heaven (18 points).

Zeus?the supreme god of Greek mythology, who, after lots were cast to divide the universe and after the underworld went to Hades, ruled from Mount Olympus; was the symbol of power, rule, and law; and was the
rewarder of good and the punisher of evil (15 points).

Hey Samuel or Thomas, I know you guys are good with this (God Who Wasn't There Fans), how many points does Jesus score on the copycat Hero scale?

Quote:
its like you saying that there was an ant that was as big as a car and could talk. no one would believe you and you wouldn't even bother to tell people that unless it really happened.

You realize what you just said? You just said that nobody has ever told an outlandish lie. Ridiculous.

- Brian Sapient


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Rigor_OMortis
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

And he shoots, and scores ! An incredible 19 out of 22... talk about originality Laughing out loud

In fact, there are so many other heroes that would score high on the Raglan scale, that only saying all of them here would eat up your servers.

The ancient Romanian god-hero Zamolxis scores 19 as well, if I'm correct... and his origins were... far back before Jesus.

I liked a quote from the movie: "The same thing you guys say about Jesus, we've been saying about Dyonissos or Mithras for hundreds of years, so wat's new? What's the catch?" And the explanation the Church gives is also denoting utter lameness, but I'll leave the joy of the movie for that.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Is it just me, or does the discovery of the Cosmic Background Radiation sort of put the kaibosh on the whole "God created the Universe in 7 days" bit? I know that on the surface that doesnt seem to really apply to this discussion, but if we've found ACTUAL, VERIFYABLE evedince that what the bible says on this most central tennant is incorrect, doesn't that just sort of moot the other arguments?

Now on to one of my other favorite topics. Kirk, friend you are not alone. I myself have been addicted to masturbation since I was 14. I know! I know, it's despicable isn't it? I know I should stop, but somehow I just can't seem to get around to it. And I have another confession to make, I've had sex before marriage, many, many times. It's probably satan making me be such a godless sinner. Or could it be millions of years of selective evolution that have resulted in me being born with the perfectly natural desire to "stick it in!"? And if it was satan who made you want to flag your dolphin so much, doesnt that excuse you from responsability for your actions? In which case it's satans fault, and HE should be the one burning in hell, ALONE. Well, I'm going to go feed my addiction, for the fourth time this morning alone. (What can I say, I've been away from my girl on vacation for 15 days, and ive got 14 more to go, what am I supposed to do? pray and take lots of cold showers?)

I vote YES http//underdogryan.blogspot.com/2005/09/should-men-fling-poo.html


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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Nothing fails like prayer. As Robert Ingersoll said "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray."

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


JesusSaves
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AUDIO RESPONSE to Kirk a Christian

Quote:
That passage actually doesn't pertain to the one I posted.

actually it does. since you are saying that God wants to bash kids who don't listen. but really it is saying those who are trying to lead you astray with there rebellious talk.. if you discipline them and they don't turn from their evil way then take them to a goverment and have them stone the false prophet.

Quote:

well that is different from what I am saying, anyone nowadays can die for their religion, but it doesn't make it any more fact. what I am talking about is the desciples and the apostols- who skeptics say created the whole story- who died for the lie.. why would they die for it?

Quote:
You still have the same problem. Why would the 9-11 hijackers die for a lie?

what I am saying--- they died for a lie because they didnt invent it. They were convinced of a lie, they didnt make one up. If they knew it was a lie they would not have died for the cause

what I am talking about is the desciples and the apostols- who skeptics say created the whole story- who died for the lie.. why would they die for it it was actually a painful death for that matter.

Quote:
Do you know the effects of meth on the brain? I'm guessing meth, but maybe you should specify what "m" is. My point would be, that I don't find it loving that God would allow you to have a decayed brain for the rest of your life just so you could seek him. There are plenty of other ways to have people seek god. Or better yet, if God wants us to believe in him so bad, he could just plant us all with knowledge of him at birth. The 9-11 tragedy wouldn't have occcured and the Crusades wouldn't have happened if we all knew at birth about God and which God is real. An all powerful god could do this, without affecting free will.

well I said it was masturbation. but even if I was hooked on meth it would have been a merical for me to just getting off it. yeah, I might have been crushed- my brain messed up--- after that. but those are my consequences for my actions. it actually wasn't even God who put you into the spot of meth... it wasn't even God who put me into my addiction of masturbation.

then that wouldn't be free will if God gave you a mind already.

Quote:
What if you are? Don't tell me well then nothing happens. We're back to Pascals Wager again. You will have wasted your entire life on a lie, and worse off you might have the wrong god.

well nothing will happen, I think a good verse for the wrong god part is from daniel. which I am secure in my faith in which I know I don't seek a false God.. since no other god can forgive sins like God of christianity.

Quote:
Name one eye witness who wrote about the resurrection of Jesus in the lifetime of Jesus. Keeping in mind that when you cant find a single person, think how ridiculous it would be to see someone fly into the sky a few days after they died and not a single person wrote it down.

John, Peter, Luke.

Quote:
No it wouldn't. Especially if you murdered anyone who didn't agree with you. Did you look at the lists of people killed by the Popes?

did they ever rise agian in three days?

Quote:
It wasn't made up out of the blue. It was a direct copy of other previous myths. Take a look at Raglans Hero Scale:

Quote:
Quote:

Lord Raglan in his book The Hero/A Study in Tradition, Myth, and Drama, first published in 1936 by Methuen & Co., Ltd.

In the chapter ?The Hero,? Fitzroy Richard Somerset 4th Baron Raglan (whose great-grandfather invented the raglan sleeve) lists 22 common events in the myths and lives of well-known folk heroes of tradition, as follows:
(1) The hero?s mother is a royal virgin;
(2) His father is a king, and
(3) Often a near relative of his mother, but
(4) The circumstances of his conception are unusual,
and
(5) He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
(6) At birth an attempt is made to kill the hero, usually by his father or his maternal grand-father, but
(7) He is spirited away, and
(Cool He is raised by foster parents in a faraway country.
(9) We are told nothing about the hero?s child-hood, but
(10) On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
(11) After a victory over the king and/or a giant, a dragon, or a wild beast,
(12) The hero marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor, and
(13) He becomes king.
(14) For a time the hero reigns uneventfully, and
(15) Prescribes laws, but
(16) Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
(17) He is driven from the throne and the city, after which
(18) He meets with a mysterious death,
(19) Often at the top of a hill.
(20) The hero?s children, if any, do not succeed him.
(21) The hero?s body is not buried, but nevertheless
(22) He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Lord Raglan then goes on to apply the folk-hero pattern
to a number of literary heroes and identifies the number
of matches with each one, as follows:

Apollo?the son of Zeus, who was almost killed at birth and who is one of the most important Olympian gods of Greek mythology (11 points).

King Arthur?popular medieval legend and subject of modern-day Broadway musicals and films, who was raised in a distant land, won a magical victory, died by a conspiracy against him, was not buried, but has a holy sepulchre (19 points).

Asclepius?legendary Greek physician, son of Apollo and god of medicine, who was nearly killed at birth, his burial place was unknown, but who had a number of holy sepulchres (12 points).

Bellerophone?a hero in Greek mythology, who killed the monster Chimera with the help of the winged horse Pegasus, went into exile, and attempted an ascent to the sky (16 points).

Dionysus?the god of fertility and wine in Greek mythology and later considered a patron of the arts, who was almost killed at birth, went into exile, ascended to Olympus, and had no burial place, but numerous
shrines and temples (19 points).

Elijah?Hebrew prophet in the reign of King Ahab and an outstanding figure in the Old Testament, whose body was not buried, but who had a holy sepulchre (9 points).

Hercules?most popular of the Greek heroes, who was famous for his strength and courage, who was reputed to be the son of Zeus, and whose body disappeared after his death (17 points).

Jason?one of the greatest heroes of Greek mythology, who assembled the Argonauts, searched for the Golden Fleece, and after his death was worshiped at shrines (15points).

Joseph?the favored son of Jacob and Rachel in the Bible, who was raised in Egypt and wore the coat of many colors (12 points).

Llew Llawgyffes?a Celtic hero, whose mother was a royal virgin, who won magical victories with his father?s help, and who flew off in the form of an eagle after his death (17 points).

Moses?the Hebrew lawgiver and the prototype of the Biblical prophets, who was almost killed at birth, gained a series of magical victories over Pharaoh, and who disappeared mysteriously from the top of a mountain
(20 points).

Nyikang?the cult-hero of the Shiluk tribe of the Upper Nile in Africa, who disappeared mysteriously, was not buried, and had a number of holy sepulchres (14 points).

Oedipus?the hero in Greek mythology who solved the riddle of the Sphinx, married his own mother, was driven into exile, and also became known for the Oedipus Complex (19 points).

Pelops?a hero in Greek mythology, who was murdered by his father, served at a banquet for the gods, brought back to life, given an ivory shoulder to replace the one eaten by Demeter, and for whom Peloponnesus was named (13 points).

Perseus?a hero in Greek mythology, who was the son of Zeus, set afloat in a chest as a child, and aided by the gods in killing Medusa (18 points).

Robin Hood?the legendary 12th-century English hero who robbed from the rich, lived in Sherwood Forest with his band of outlaws, and helped the poor (13 points).

Romulus?the founder of Rome in Roman legend along with his twin brother Remus, whom Romulus killed after a quarrel (18 points).

Siegfried?also known as Sigurd, a folk hero of early and medieval Germanic mythology in the Volsungasaga and the Niebelungen, who became a ruler, but was killed after a plot against him (11 points).

Theseus?an Athenian hero in Greek mythology, who killed the Minotaur, instituted several reforms, and was rescued by Hercules after he was imprisoned in Hades (20 points).

Watu Gunung?a Javanese folk hero, whose life bears a striking resemblance to the Oedipus myth and who also goes to heaven (18 points).

Zeus?the supreme god of Greek mythology, who, after lots were cast to divide the universe and after the underworld went to Hades, ruled from Mount Olympus; was the symbol of power, rule, and law; and was the
rewarder of good and the punisher of evil (15 points).

Hey Samuel or Thomas, I know you guys are good with this (God Who Wasn't There Fans), how many points does Jesus score on the copycat Hero scale?

well, you saying Jesus was a fictional character, isn't a good answer either. as of fact that no man or women as ever made a greater contribution to the world as Jesus Christ as.
H.G. Wells the english novelist whose five volumes on world history grace the shelves of almost all college and university librarys, ended up giving more space to Jesus Christ.
even the sharpest of skeptics have trouble trying to remove Jesus Christ out of his catogorie.
He inspired more than anyone else in More influences, artistic influences, humanitarian influence, inspire devotion, scholastic influences, and even the impact on women.

no fictional character could have done that. unless He was real... which in that case the question isn't does He exist... it is Who is Jesus Christ?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Saganite wrote:
Is it just me, or does the discovery of the Cosmic Background Radiation sort of put the kaibosh on the whole "God created the Universe in 7 days" bit? I know that on the surface that doesnt seem to really apply to this discussion, but if we've found ACTUAL, VERIFYABLE evedince that what the bible says on this most central tennant is incorrect, doesn't that just sort of moot the other arguments?

Now on to one of my other favorite topics. Kirk, friend you are not alone. I myself have been addicted to masturbation since I was 14. I know! I know, it's despicable isn't it? I know I should stop, but somehow I just can't seem to get around to it. And I have another confession to make, I've had sex before marriage, many, many times. It's probably satan making me be such a godless sinner. Or could it be millions of years of selective evolution that have resulted in me being born with the perfectly natural desire to "stick it in!"? And if it was satan who made you want to flag your dolphin so much, doesnt that excuse you from responsability for your actions? In which case it's satans fault, and HE should be the one burning in hell, ALONE. Well, I'm going to go feed my addiction, for the fourth time this morning alone. (What can I say, I've been away from my girl on vacation for 15 days, and ive got 14 more to go, what am I supposed to do? pray and take lots of cold showers?)

Hey Saganite-

as much as it was satan who tempted me... it was my fault for taking the bate... not satan. though it was because of him I WAS in my addiction. but because of my God I am out... not wanting to ever do it again.. no desire for it..

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


Yellow_Number_Five
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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
That passage actually doesn't pertain to the one I posted.

actually it does. since you are saying that God wants to bash kids who don't listen. but really it is saying those who are trying to lead you astray with there rebellious talk.. if you discipline them and they don't turn from their evil way then take them to a goverment and have them stone the false prophet.

Is it just me, or did you did you just call for the stoning of the politically dissident?

Quote:
Quote:

well that is different from what I am saying, anyone nowadays can die for their religion, but it doesn't make it any more fact. what I am talking about is the desciples and the apostols- who skeptics say created the whole story- who died for the lie.. why would they die for it?

Quote:
You still have the same problem. Why would the 9-11 hijackers die for a lie?

what I am saying--- they died for a lie because they didnt invent it. They were convinced of a lie, they didnt make one up. If they knew it was a lie they would not have died for the cause

You've just made Sapient's point. Nobody is claiming people don't martyr themselves for what they believe. The 9/11 hijackers believed the lie - as did the followers of David Koresh and Jim Jones, as did the Heaven's Gate cult, as did the so called Apostles. People die for lies every day, because they are convinced their delusions are divine.

Quote:
what I am talking about is the desciples and the apostols- who skeptics say created the whole story- who died for the lie.. why would they die for it it was actually a painful death for that matter.

They died for it because they did believe it to be the truth. Nobody disputes that they did believe. The non-sequitor, the disconnect, the illogic, lies in attributing truth to something simply because one was foolish enough or deluded enough to die for it. That somebody is willing to matyr themselves for a cause dose not in any way make thier cause true.

Quote:
Quote:
Do you know the effects of meth on the brain? I'm guessing meth, but maybe you should specify what "m" is. My point would be, that I don't find it loving that God would allow you to have a decayed brain for the rest of your life just so you could seek him. There are plenty of other ways to have people seek god. Or better yet, if God wants us to believe in him so bad, he could just plant us all with knowledge of him at birth. The 9-11 tragedy wouldn't have occcured and the Crusades wouldn't have happened if we all knew at birth about God and which God is real. An all powerful god could do this, without affecting free will.

well I said it was masturbation. but even if I was hooked on meth it would have been a merical for me to just getting off it. yeah, I might have been crushed- my brain messed up--- after that. but those are my consequences for my actions. it actually wasn't even God who put you into the spot of meth... it wasn't even God who put me into my addiction of masturbation.

then that wouldn't be free will if God gave you a mind already.

Really? God didn't put you into that position?

Are you telling me God is not all knowing, not omnicient? Did God not know you would be subject to such addictions before he created you?

God creates people knowing what they will do, he must, or else he is not all knowing. You cannot have freewill AND an omnicient God. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

In a very real sense, IF God exists, he created me knowing I would reject him, knowing I would not believe. IF God punishes us for non-belief, then God in a very real sense created me knowing he was going to torture me for eternity. This does not seem like the actions of a loving being.

Quote:
Quote:
What if you are? Don't tell me well then nothing happens. We're back to Pascals Wager again. You will have wasted your entire life on a lie, and worse off you might have the wrong god.

well nothing will happen, I think a good verse for the wrong god part is from daniel. which I am secure in my faith in which I know I don't seek a false God.. since no other god can forgive sins like God of christianity.

What baffles me is that you fail to see that the only reason your God needs to provide forgiveness is because he's the one who doles out the punishment.

Threatening to torture me and then not torturing me after I satisfy an arbitrary set of conditions is not a benevolent act - it's sadism.

Quote:
Quote:
Name one eye witness who wrote about the resurrection of Jesus in the lifetime of Jesus. Keeping in mind that when you cant find a single person, think how ridiculous it would be to see someone fly into the sky a few days after they died and not a single person wrote it down.

John, Peter, Luke.

These three did not write the Gospels you refer to, and these Gospels were not written in the time period that Jesus supposedly existed.

Look it up yourself if you doubt me.

Quote:
Quote:
No it wouldn't. Especially if you murdered anyone who didn't agree with you. Did you look at the lists of people killed by the Popes?

did they ever rise agian in three days?

Please simply answer his question rather than toss out red herrings.

Quote:
well, you saying Jesus was a fictional character, isn't a good answer either.

No, he's saying it is more plausible that the supernatural aspects of Christ's life are mythical in this case - and honestly, even if there were a historical Jesus, without the supernatural aspects of the man's life, Christianity is still founded on a sham.

Quote:
as of fact that no man or women as ever made a greater contribution to the world as Jesus Christ as.

Huh? In what way? I won't disagree that Christianity has had a horrible inpact on our world, but I certainly don't think it is something you ought to be proud of.

I'd place Newton, Pastuer, Einstein, Sagan, Darwin, Boyle, Alex Flemming, Paul Winchell and thousands of others ahead of God who sacrificed himself to himself to grant us forgiveness from a punishment he invented.

Quote:
HG. Wells the english novelist whose five volumes on world history grace the shelves of almost all college and university librarys, ended up giving more space to Jesus Christ.
even the sharpest of skeptics have trouble trying to remove Jesus Christ out of his catogorie.
He inspired more than anyone else in More influences, artistic influences, humanitarian influence, inspire devotion, scholastic influences, and even the impact on women.

no fictional character could have done that. unless He was real... which in that case the question isn't does He exist... it is Who is Jesus Christ?

No, sorry, you overestimate the impact of your Christ. You must remember that the majority of the world is not Christian. You're simply looking at the world through Western and Christian colored glasses.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Yellow_Number_Five
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Did you actually listen to the audio reply, JesusSaves, it certiainly seems that you did not.


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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
Did you actually listen to the audio reply, JesusSaves, it certiainly seems that you did not.

I think his audio is messed up on his sound card. Sad

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Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:
Is it just me, or did you did you just call for the stoning of the politically dissident?

Quote:
You've just made Sapient's point. Nobody is claiming people don't martyr themselves for what they believe. The 9/11 hijackers believed the lie - as did the followers of David Koresh and Jim Jones, as did the Heaven's Gate cult, as did the so called Apostles. People die for lies every day, because they are convinced their delusions are divine.

the 911 hijackers.. your nuts... if your talking about what counts the most it wouldn't be people from this time.. as Jesus states many will be killing people thinking it is an offering to God.. but infact it isn't.. there is one case that brings it down..
these people (apostols) were eye witnesses to the events that took place in Jesus time- unlike these so called witnesses 9/11 hijackers... there is no cause for them to have died for the lie. and even if they were really disinlussioned== you still have to wonder the
why did they(the apostols) go through with their death?
I mean you would think one would have said "look we messed up this is all lie" but none of them did.

Quote:
They died for it because they did believe it to be the truth. Nobody disputes that they did believe. The non-sequitor, the disconnect, the illogic, lies in attributing truth to something simply because one was foolish enough or deluded enough to die for it. That somebody is willing to matyr themselves for a cause dose not in any way make thier cause true
.

but as evidence showed no two people can have the same delusions or visions... paul was a soldier- he gave up everything- even became poor for Christ.
so why would they die for their lie knowing that it was a lie? that is a question you still haven't answered..
let me ask you something- if you made up a big hoaxs and people wanted to kill you would you die for your lie? wouldn't you want your life?

Quote:
Really? God didn't put you into that position?

Are you telling me God is not all knowing, not omnicient? Did God not know you would be subject to such addictions before he created you?

God creates people knowing what they will do, he must, or else he is not all knowing. You cannot have freewill AND an omnicient God. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

In a very real sense, IF God exists, he created me knowing I would reject him, knowing I would not believe. IF God punishes us for non-belief, then God in a very real sense created me knowing he was going to torture me for eternity. This does not seem like the actions of a loving being.

yes your right God did create you- He does know everything- and yes I wouldn't be wrong either if I said God put me in that position. but I wouldn't be wrong saying that satan put me in it.. you'll have to read job to see how I am saying this...
I believe God predestined who would be saved... I don't think your future is laid out already as you might think.. yes God is all knowing and all powerful he can choose a plan for you.. but I believe God knows the outcome of your actions. like:

if you were going to buy a coke but you didn't have the money.. you could either steal it or simply not take it.. now I believe God knows the future of those different roads.. but not your future pursue...

that is how free will can set in you as an individual have the free will to choose

Quote:
What baffles me is that you fail to see that the only reason your God needs to provide forgiveness is because he's the one who doles out the punishment.

Threatening to torture me and then not torturing me after I satisfy an arbitrary set of conditions is not a benevolent act - it's sadism.

God disciplines yes.. but Hes the parent. God also has a anger that doesn't last forever.. as we see in scripture.. it sometimes says "in Gods anger something bad happened" I don't think that takes away of who God really is.

These three did not write the Gospels you refer to, and these Gospels were not written in the time period that Jesus supposedly existed.

Look it up yourself if you doubt me.

Oh really and you know this because?

as Henry H. Halley states:
"the four gospels are, by all odds, the most improtant part of the Bible: more importan than all the rest of the Bible put together. More important than all the rest of the books in the world put together: because we could better afford to be without the knowledge of everything else than to be without the knowledge of Christ. bible books that precede are anticipatory, and those that follow are explanatory, of the Hero of the four gospels."

these gospels were written 30-60 years ( not sure what the exact date is) but they were written near Jesus life time and mark was probally the first to compile his gospel for the early church was written 55 AD 22 years after the events took place.
Matthews gospel was probally written as early as AD 30 and was probally read by many 30 -60 AD

no I didn't but my question still remains: did they ever rise agian after three days?

Quote:
No, he's saying it is more plausible that the supernatural aspects of Christ's life are mythical in this case - and honestly, even if there were a historical Jesus, without the supernatural aspects of the man's life, Christianity is still founded on a sham
.

do you know what the name Jesus Christ means? Anointed Savior. so he had a name.. the prophecies point to christ when you actually sit down and think about them.
why would anyone take time and say this man who was a carpenter is the Son of God and give him a resurrection story? can you explain the resurrection?
and agian this goes back to the would you die for a lie.
and many secular books talk about Jesus

[

Quote:
Huh? In what way? I won't disagree that Christianity has had a horrible inpact on our world, but I certainly don't think it is something you ought to be proud of.

Moral influence, artistic influence, humanitarian influence, inspire devotion, scholastic influence, impact on women.

Quote:
No, sorry, you overestimate the impact of your Christ. You must remember that the majority of the world is not Christian. You're simply looking at the world through Western and Christian colored glasses

Hg wells wan't a fan of Christianity.. but he for some reason wrote many books over Jesus

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
That passage actually doesn't pertain to the one I posted.

actually it does. since you are saying that God wants to bash kids who don't listen. but really it is saying those who are trying to lead you astray with there rebellious talk.. if you discipline them and they don't turn from their evil way then take them to a goverment and have them stone the false prophet.

so the only way an all powerful, all loving god could 'discipline' people was through mass murder?

I think there are more effective methods of 'disciplining' than slaughtering people....

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Quote:
so the only way an all powerful, all loving god could 'discipline' people was through mass murder?

I think there are more effective methods of 'disciplining' than slaughtering people

through mass murderers? what? God gave them a chance to repent they didn't choose to repent so God got angry.. and first off God isn't all loving that is something that as been set in your minds: God is all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipresent, abounding in love to those who love him and abounding in angry to those who hate him.. he is also a Just God

adam and eve sinned... God told them not to eat of the apple or else something bad would happen.. they chosed to eat of the apple so God kicked them out of eden and death came into this world...

God gave Jonah another chance to do Gods will...

God gave humanity another chance through Jesus Christ..

But yes if you keep disobeying God then yes you will soon feel His wrath... is he not supose to have one?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Why would he be angry with what he's responsible for? Regardless if you believe freewill exists, he created the universe and everything in it fully knowing what was going to happen, so why would he be upset? It's like assembling a car that you know before you even start building it that it's going to constantly break down over and over, why would you get mad if you already knew before hand? And why not instead just make a car that wouldn't break down?


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ok heres what I'll ask you:

answer the best of what my question wants..

now if a all-knowing God created world...

if he created you without a consience then whose fault would it be if you commited the sin?

and heres another question:

now if He created you WITH a consience- giving you credibility of your actions- then whose fault would it be?

its like a manager of a store--- in some way he is like God-- he decides to hire a employee to help out around the place.. knowing that the employer will mess up he trains him (gives him a conscience) now what if the employee leaves something on when it should of been turned off?
shouldn't the manager be able to reduce his pay or fire him?

now like in genesis it says God created us to watch over everything.. so there God puts us in the spot of some type of control over something..
then in genesis we see that Adam and Eve disobeyed God Adam and Eve(had a conscience when they ate of it) but after they ate the apple they now know right from wrong... but I believe they knew right from wrong just before they were about to eat of the apple.

Genesis 3:4-7

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Heres a verse:
Jeremiah 9:21-24
21 Death has climbed in through our windows
and has entered our fortresses;
it has cut off the children from the streets
and the young men from the public squares.

22 Say, "This is what the LORD declares:
" 'The dead bodies of men will lie
like refuse on the open field,
like cut grain behind the reaper,
with no one to gather them.' "

23 This is what the LORD says:
"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom
or the strong man boast of his strength
or the rich man boast of his riches,

24 but let him who boasts boast about this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"
declares the LORD.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:
if he created you without a consience then whose fault would it be if you commited the sin?

It would be his fault if he is all knowing, he would know that I would sin even before he created me, and he would have the choice to create me in a different way so that I would not sin, aswell.

JesusSaves wrote:

and heres another question:

now if He created you WITH a consience- giving you credibility of your actions- then whose fault would it be?


If freewill exists, but god is all knowing meaning he knows what I'm going to do before he even creates me, then free will is pre-determined. If free will is pre-determined then not only does that mean freewill does not exist, but it also means that he is responsible for creating that predetermination and thus responsible for my actions.

JesusSaves wrote:

its like a manager of a store--- in some way he is like God-- he decides to hiar a employee to help out around the place.. knowing that the employer will mess up he trains him (gives him a conscience) now what if the employee leaves something on when it should of been turned off?
shouldn't the manager be able to reduce his pay or fire him?

This really does not work, the manager was not responsible for teaching him work ethics before he was employed, thus he cannot even know for sure if the employee is going to fuck up. Now if this was an all powerful, all knowing manager then the situation would be in the same boat as above. If the manager created the employee's work ethic to begin with, then he is responsible for the employee's fuck up.

Think of it this way, say I build a robot from the ground up and program it myself. I was even capable of programming it to make it's own choices. But one day said robot goes off and kills someone for whatever reason, I'm responsible because I did not program him correctly and somehow through what I did give him, he thought it was OK to kill someone for whatever reason. I am responsible for not making it clear to the robot that killing someone is not OK. It's not the robot's fault for not knowing that killing someone is wrong, I'm not going to punish the robot because I failed to make that clear.


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[

Quote:
It would be his fault if he is all knowing, he would know that I would sin even before he created me, and he would have the choice to create me in a different way so that I would not sin, aswell.

I agree.

Quote:
If freewill exists, but god is all knowing meaning he knows what I'm going to do before he even creates me, then free will is pre-determined. If free will is pre-determined then not only does that mean freewill does not exist, but it also means that he is responsible for creating that predetermination and thus responsible for my actions.

free will does exist.. he gave you a conscience to know right from wrong.. hes all-knowing-- think about ALL- knowing.. he knows all the different choices you have in the world... and which choice will lead to which.. tell me if that isn't a free will... so I don't think your future is marked out so soon as you think..

Quote:
This really does not work, the manager was not responsible for teaching him work ethics before he was employed, thus he cannot even know for sure if the employee is going to fuck up. Now if this was an all powerful, all knowing manager then the situation would be in the same boat as above. If the manager created the employee's work ethic to begin with, then he is responsible for the employee's fuck up.

please don't cuss. I hate it.

but ok- I didn't mean the manager didn't train him properally.. I meant it as if he did train him properally... and the employee messes up

have you ever seen I-robot?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:
If freewill exists, but god is all knowing meaning he knows what I'm going to do before he even creates me, then free will is pre-determined. If free will is pre-determined then not only does that mean freewill does not exist, but it also means that he is responsible for creating that predetermination and thus responsible for my actions.

free will does exist.. he gave you a conscience to know right from wrong.. hes all-knowing-- think about ALL- knowing.. he knows all the different choices you have in the world... and which choice will lead to which.. tell me if that isn't a free will... so I don't think your future is marked out so soon as you think..

So wait, god only knows the different choices I can make? Well, by that logic, god is not all knowing if he does not know the future.

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:
This really does not work, the manager was not responsible for teaching him work ethics before he was employed, thus he cannot even know for sure if the employee is going to fuck up. Now if this was an all powerful, all knowing manager then the situation would be in the same boat as above. If the manager created the employee's work ethic to begin with, then he is responsible for the employee's fuck up.

please don't cuss. I hate it.


Sorry, but it's part of how I converse, I'm not going to limit my right to freespeech because you don't like it.
JesusSaves wrote:

but ok- I didn't mean the manager didn't train him properally.. I meant it as if he did train him properally... and the employee messes up

If the manager is all knowing, then obviously the manager did not train him properly. If the manager was not able to anticipate possible problems that could come from the employee's ability to choose freely, and modify his training to fix said problems, then the manager is not all knowing, and it's still the managers fault.

JesusSaves wrote:

have you ever seen I-robot?

No.


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wish I could give you my brain to show you how I am viewing this.. its hard to put it in words..

ok well are you all knowing?

if you knew what would happen if you made certain choice before you made them.. like only the good choices would you become all-knowing?

what if you knew what would happen if you did any choices before you made them?

little side note for the off readers:

sometimes its easy for me to know that there is a greater power out there when not everything goes my way.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


CynageN
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JesusSaves wrote:

ok well are you all knowing?

No. Nor do I claim to be.

JesusSaves wrote:

if you knew what would happen if you made certain choice before you made them.. like only the good choices would you become all-knowing?

No. All knowing implies infinite knowledge of everything. If I knew the consequences of choices before I made them, I would have foresight, not all knowledge. However, having foresight is a PART of having infinite knowledge.

JesusSaves wrote:

what if you knew what would happen if you did any choices before you made them?

What? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here.
If I knew the consequences of all choices I had to make before I made them, obviously I would make the choices with the most favorable consequences.


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Quote:
No. Nor do I claim to be.

well so your not all-knowing?

Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

Quote:
No. All knowing implies infinite knowledge of everything. If I knew the consequences of choices before I made them, I would have foresight, not all knowledge. However, having foresight is a PART of having infinite knowledge.

and all knowing is something we don't have. even the smarted scienctist couldn't say he knew all.

Quote:
What? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here.
If I knew the consequences of all choices I had to make before I made them, obviously I would make the choices with the most favorable consequences.

so this choice right here. isn't because you know God doesn't exist but because you don't know if he exist or not.

for me it is hard to speak about God which is how I also know that this is a divine person "real" because if he was a made up God or person or thing he would be a lot easier to talk about.

I pulled this bit from a site.. pretty much says the same thing:
"Yes, God does know everything. God created man with a will to make his own decisions and God respects a man's will and will not force Himself on us. That means he allows us to do what we want. We can reject His existence, and live as we want too. However, although God will not violate our wills, He does hold us responsible for our actions and one day will judge us accordingly.
Yes, being omniscience God knows who will believe in Him. But as I said, he does not force Himself on us. He tells us in the Bible who He is and what is His plan for us. He then leaves it up to us to accept Him or reject Him"

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


CynageN
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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
No. Nor do I claim to be.

well so your not all-knowing?


Did I not just say I wasn't?
JesusSaves wrote:

Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

Uh, what are you talking about? In order for me to "know" of your god, I would have to have hard physical evidence of his existence and there is NONE. There is NO evidence for the existence of ANY god man has created. Is it possible that you don't know Hades or Allah "with the other percent of your brain?"
JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:
No. All knowing implies infinite knowledge of everything. If I knew the consequences of choices before I made them, I would have foresight, not all knowledge. However, having foresight is a PART of having infinite knowledge.

and all knowing is something we don't have. even the smarted scienctist couldn't say he knew all.


You're not telling me anything I don't know. You don't have to be all knowing to be positive that a god does not exist.

Quote:
What? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here.
If I knew the consequences of all choices I had to make before I made them, obviously I would make the choices with the most favorable consequences.

JesusSaves wrote:

so this choice right here. isn't because you know God doesn't exist but because you don't know if he exist or not.

What? My making choices because magicly I know the consequences of all choices one day has nothing to do with not knowing if god exists or not.
JesusSaves wrote:

for me it is hard to speak about God which is how I also know that this is a divine person "real" because if he was a made up God or person or thing he would be a lot easier to talk about.

Wrong. Do you have a hard time describing your best friend? What about your mother? This is a ridiculous claim. If god was real, you wouldn't have such a hard time describing him because you would know enough about him from conversations with him to describe his character.

JesusSaves wrote:

I pulled this bit from a site.. pretty much says the same thing:
"Yes, God does know everything. God created man with a will to make his own decisions and God respects a man's will and will not force Himself on us. That means he allows us to do what we want. We can reject His existence, and live as we want too. However, although God will not violate our wills, He does hold us responsible for our actions and one day will judge us accordingly.
Yes, being omniscience God knows who will believe in Him. But as I said, he does not force Himself on us. He tells us in the Bible who He is and what is His plan for us. He then leaves it up to us to accept Him or reject Him"

Like I said, if god knows everything, he knew I and many others would be sinners before he created us or the world. He would know this because he already predetermined my fate which means that FREEWILL is false. I cannot have freewill if my actions have already been decided by some other force. Please tell me why I should trust the bible to be a source of factual information on any subject when it's claimed to be the true word of your perfect god, yet it has so many holes, contradictions and is filled with every form of hate as well.


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Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


CynageN
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JesusSaves wrote:
Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

I already responded to that, if you're not going to address or even acknowledge any of the points I made, then I have no reason to respond to you until you do. Enjoy your mind disease.


Sapient
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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
No. Nor do I claim to be.

well so your not all-knowing?

Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

Dude, Ray Comfort sucks. We had him on the show. Ray fails to realize in the Edison argument that it's just as possible that there is proof that God doesn't exist in the "other percent." Ray dishonestly states that he "knows God exists" and so it doesn't matter what knowledge is in the "other percent" yet his whole argument hinges on the hope that you won't realize he's a liar... apparently you didn't (or the Preacher who taught his bullshit to you didn't).

Additionally, you're argument also forgets, we don't claim to know for sure a god doesn't exist. We only claim to know that we don't have the knowledge of his existence. Basically your argument sucks.

Quote:

Yes, being omniscience God knows who will believe in Him. But as I said, he does not force Himself on us. He tells us in the Bible who He is and what is His plan for us. He then leaves it up to us to accept Him or reject Him"

...He also knows exactly what type of evidence we would need to believe in him, yet doesn't provide the evidence. Because of this, he has created certain people with the purpose of burning them in hell for eternity, all while claiming this is love. Therefore this specific God does not exist and can not exist as it is a complete impossibility.

You see... if we need to use faith to believe in God, then we can use faith to believe in anything. We should use faith to believe in elves, gnomes, leprechauns, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, all of them are real... if God is real based on faith.

- Brian Sapient


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Sapient
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JesusSaves wrote:
Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

And can you admit that possibly in the "other percent" there is evidence to prove that your god DOESN'T exist?

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


JesusSaves
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CynageN wrote:
JesusSaves wrote:
Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

I already responded to that, if you're not going to address or even acknowledge any of the points I made, then I have no reason to respond to you until you do. Enjoy your mind disease.

sorry I didn't see it.. my fault... let me read what you read.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Sapient wrote:
JesusSaves wrote:
Thomas Edison, said, "We do not know a millionth of one percent about anything."
could it possibly be that you don't know God with the other percent of your brain?

And can you admit that possibly in the "other percent" there is evidence to prove that your god DOESN'T exist?

I think what it means that you as a person shouldn't say that God doesn't really exist.

be right back let me get my thoughts together... for you to better understand me.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


JesusSaves
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Quote:
Uh, what are you talking about? In order for me to "know" of your god, I would have to have hard physical evidence of his existence and there is NONE. There is NO evidence for the existence of ANY god man has created. Is it possible that you don't know Hades or Allah "with the other percent of your brain?"

if you had hard proof then what would that bring? the only evidence is the universe.. I see it as.. if we were any further away from the sun then we would freeze and if we were closer to the sun we would fry.. instead it is perfect for us.. our world is the only world with the right stuff for life.
allah-- made up God... think about it... Muhammad said he found him in a cave.. similar to what John said he saw.. mormonism?
buddha went to a cave and saw a god and he said there were 3 distinct gods.. 3 seperate gods.. allah is only but one god. hinduism.... well don't have to say anything about them... star wars? come on...
it has been told-- that satan will lie to people but use truth to.. so lets look at facts... we know that God of the Bible is a trinity.. 3 in 1 not 3 in 3 not 1 in 1 either..

like I said only the true God can forgive sins... not a idol or another god... for instance.. I once idolized a relationship... I trusted this girl I then got to emotional and well she pretty much left me hanging with my depression.. now the God of the Bible says that He understands my heart and that I was searching for Love and not searching for God.. and he said that He would not leave through my problems.. but the girl my idol said she wouldn't stick around in my time of trouble..
think about money.. people idolize it sometimes... when they spend it all they feel bad and want more of it.. can money forgive sins? no...
allah says you have to be good in order to get into heaven... that is non sense.. God of the Bible made a new convenant with us... and that is that everyone who puts their trust in Jesus will be saved... now that isn't a new idea.. for a lot scripture verses have prophesies about Jesus... those prophecies are 700 to 1000 or more years old... the earliest prophecy is in Genesis.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


CynageN
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JesusSaves wrote:

if you had hard proof then what would that bring?

It would make me believe in your god.
JesusSaves wrote:
the only evidence is the universe..

Wrong, the universe is not evidence of the existence of an all powerful invisible dictator.
JesusSaves wrote:

I see it as.. if we were any further away from the sun then we would freeze and if we were closer to the sun we would fry.. instead it is perfect for us.. our world is the only world with the right stuff for life.

Think about what you just said. You just confirmed that the earth is the only planet capable of sustaning life in our solar system because of it's location. That's proof that even your god is limited by nature, because clearly if he was all powerful, he could have made the sun itself inhabitable by life, but he decided to conform to nature.
JesusSaves wrote:

allah-- made up God... think about it... Muhammad said he found him in a cave.. similar to what John said he saw..

I agree that allah is a man made god just as yahweh is a man made god, just as Hades and Neptune and Anubis and Ra and Ares and Artemis and Loki and Mithras and Set and Helios and the hundreds of others that I didn't mention are all synthetic.

JesusSaves wrote:
---Ignorance Spewing all over the place---

Your god is no more valid than any other god. Your god is no more valid than the flying spaghetti monster.
JesusSaves wrote:

like I said only the true God can forgive sins...

And your basis for saying that sin exists is...?

JesusSaves wrote:
---Typical Teenage sob story---

Sad that you let another person make you feel so bad about yourself that you turned to a cult.

I'm not going to even bother responding to the rest of your post because you make no valid points.. just more misguided examples of how your faith is true in your head without any evidence to back it up.