Odd email from a fan. :-(

Sapient
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Odd email from a fan. :-(

My text is in bold.

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: ~KiNG SNaKE~
Date: 1/14/2007

atheism itself is a bit irrational. for instance, the fact that atheists assume everything, just like christians.

Name one thing that I assume.


Why not, believe in anything as a possiblity?

If this is the logic you use, then I can deduce that you'll gladly believe in my flying carpet that created the universe. So do you? If so, I'll need a donation of $100 to allow you into the club so you don't burn for eternity, because even thought the flying carpet loves you, he needs your money.

it is possible that the christian god does exist. but if he does exist, then i would be afraid for everyone considering the bibles tales of horror. it seems to me that, when you want to attack something, you had better be prepared. you cant come in guns blazing, without the guns. let alone without the ammo.
And i dont know what version of the bible you guys got that whole, denying the existence of the holy spirit thing, because it depends which level of christianity that your talking about, let alone which type.

It's Mark 3:29. How about you provide a version in which the passage doesn't exist. I can't find a single one. We used KJV.

If you go into a church right now, and told them you have denyed the existence of the holy spirit, they would tell you that you can be forgiven.

Yes, which is an example of how extremely dishonest Church representatives are, when it fits their agenda.

I myself, hold that belief. that anything is in fact, possible, when it pertains to the afterlife.

Yes, almost anything is possible. However all loving creators that would torture you for eternity are not. And there is no reason to believe in random nonsense just because some of it is possible.

There is no evidence to prove anything, let alone evidence to disprove.

No evidence to prove anything, eh? This is ridiculous. You sure you don't want to take that back?

Thats what is called, being rational. Using my critical thinking skills, to come to a logical conclusion.

Good critical thinking skills would have gotten you to a point where you realized that some things are proven and some things are disprovable.

Rationality, in no way, involves assuming anything.

Agreed.

Anyway, i am not trying to attack your beliefs, but i figured you guys would have an open enough mind to accept the possiblity, that you could be just as wrong as you think the christians are. from a rational point of view, no one is perfect.

There are certainly things we could be wrong about. Theism being irrational is not one of them. When someone provides proof or good reason to believe, we'll change our stance. Until that day, theism is irrational.

- Brian Sapient


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MattShizzle
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No new points in that

No new points in that letter. Sad


American Atheist
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Sad.

Sad.


American Atheist
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...and odd.

...and odd. Puzzled


Tomcat
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Just goes to show you that

Just goes to show you that atheists don't recieve a Get-out-of-Irrationality-Free card just because they are atheist.  They can be just as frustratingly irrational as theists...  Head Bash

The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...


Vastet
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"There are certainly things

"There are certainly things we could be wrong about. Theism being irrational is not one of them. When someone provides proof or good reason to believe, we'll change our stance. Until that day, theism is irrational."

This lead me to an interesting thought. Theists can never be rational. The very term is about "belief" in a god. If god proves itself, it won't be belief anymore. We'll need to come up with new words.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Chaoslord2004
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Sapient

Sapient wrote:

Rationality, in no way, involves assuming anything.

Agreed.

This isn't exactly true.  Anytime we reason about something, there are always base assumptions; it's inevitable.  We all assume, for example, that the Law of Non-Contradiction is true.  We make many normative assumptions, such as:  Rationality is good, while irrationality is bad.  There are always assumptions; this isn't bad...its ok.  But we must always be aware of our base assumptions, and make sure our assumptions are reasonable.

 

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions


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Vastet wrote: If god proves

Vastet wrote:
If god proves itself, it won't be belief anymore.

um, no, actually you would still believe it.  In fact, you would believe it even stronger.  The claim that if God proves himself, then we won't need to believe he exists is incoherent.  This rests upon conflating "faith" with "belief."  We all believe things.  Some of our beliefs are justified, some are not. 

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions


DrFear
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Chaoslord2004 wrote: This

Chaoslord2004 wrote:

This isn't exactly true.

i see your point, but in terms of advancing brian's argument, it's largely inconsequential.

 

Quote:
We all assume, for example, that the Law of Non-Contradiction is true.

you are of course referring to the fact that the law is falsifiable, technically.   i don't see how it applies here, though, as anything more than nitpicking.

 

Quote:
We make many normative assumptions, such as: Rationality is good, while irrationality is bad. There are always assumptions; this isn't bad...its ok. But we must always be aware of our base assumptions, and make sure our assumptions are reasonable.

a.  rationality good/ irrationality bad, same deal, the overwhelming evidence suggests it.  is it technically falsifiable, yes.

b.  you then go on to say that the perfectly rational idea that there are 'always assumptions'  is not bad, which, according to your own words, is an assumption.  a perfectly reasonable one.  

and then you go on again to say that we must be sure our assumptions are reasonable.  ?   are you purposely miring yourself in redundancy as some sort of puzzle?  or is there an evaluative tool aside from empirical evidence that we can utilize to weigh our wild assumptions against?

 

Fear is the mindkiller.


Sapient
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Chaos, have you jumped the

Chaos, have you jumped the inductive logic band wagon?

 

- Brian Sapient


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Sapient
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DrFear

DrFear wrote:
Chaoslord2004 wrote:

This isn't exactly true.

i see your point, but in terms of advancing brian's argument, it's largely inconsequential.

 

Quote:
We all assume, for example, that the Law of Non-Contradiction is true.

you are of course referring to the fact that the law is falsifiable, technically.   i don't see how it applies here, though, as anything more than nitpicking.

 

True dat.  Chaos, can you start focusing on theists now?  Pick on someone 1/3 your size.

 

- Brian Sapient


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Sapient wrote: Chaos, have

Sapient wrote:

Chaos, have you jumped the inductive logic band wagon?

Im not sure what you mean.  All I was doing was pointing out a minor flaw I saw.  Everything else you say, was fine.  In fact, most of what you say I agree with.  But an error is an error.  Im not trying to pick on you or anyone else.  I like all of you.  Please, don't take what I say the wrong way, ok? 

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions


Chaoslord2004
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Sapient wrote: True dat. 

Sapient wrote:
True dat.  Chaos, can you start focusing on theists now?  Pick on someone 1/3 your size.

Im not picking on you.  And I am focusing on theists.  If I say something false, I want it pointed out to me.  I assumed, since we are all rational, we would want to believe things that are true.  Presumably, this is what seperates us from theists.  

I apologize if the error I pointed out was irrelevant to the main body of your argument...I knew that.  I have a sort of OCD about these kinds of things.  I need to correct falsehoods.  Why do you think I engage theists?  Their religious beliefs are almost always false.

 Please, don't take it the wrong way.  We are all friends here. Smiling 

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions


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So, does anyone have the

So, does anyone have the link to this "Oh yeah?!  What about this, atheists?!" letter generator all these people seem to be using?  I'd be intrested in trying it out.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


DrFear
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Chaoslord2004 wrote:

Chaoslord2004 wrote:

Please, don't take it the wrong way. We are all friends here. Smiling

i couldn't agree more, nothing was taken the wrong way. i just wasn't sure if you were aware of your ocd Eye-wink

i think i am the record holder for 'being taken the wrong way' on this board...poor me.

 anyway, Sapient, i'm not exactly clear on the circumstance of this thread.  this person is a fan, or a turncoat, or something?

Fear is the mindkiller.


Vastet
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Chaoslord2004

Chaoslord2004 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
If god proves itself, it won't be belief anymore.

um, no, actually you would still believe it.  In fact, you would believe it even stronger.  The claim that if God proves himself, then we won't need to believe he exists is incoherent.  This rests upon conflating "faith" with "belief."  We all believe things.  Some of our beliefs are justified, some are not. 

Only in a philosophical sense. Scientifically it would then be fact, not belief.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote: Only in a

Vastet wrote:

Only in a philosophical sense. Scientifically it would then be fact, not belief.

 no, according to chaoslord, it would just be a well-thought-out assumption. Eye-wink

Fear is the mindkiller.


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ImmaculateDeception

ImmaculateDeception wrote:
So, does anyone have the link to this "Oh yeah?! What about this, atheists?!" letter generator all these people seem to be using? I'd be intrested in trying it out.

It really wouldn't surprise me to find out that there is actually such a thing. I base this on the existance of the Chat-o-Matic Atheist Witnessing Tool.