Any Thoughts? (discussion with a God believer)
William : I kinda hate to see people turn to atheism or just believe that their is no higher power.
William : Sometimes I believe it's sort of a copo ut in a way.
William : cop out
Delphic Raven: why is it a cop out?
William : I look at it as a way to accept the way things are when they don't get what they want in life. After all, we weren't meant to have any prove that God exists. Weren't ew supposed to go only on faith? I'd like to think God made things that way on purpose.
William : But it's my thought, that's all
Delphic Raven: how can we possibly know what we were and weren't "meant" to have? What is wrong about "creating" your own life because you want to create it whatever way you choose to? Wouldn't it be rather a cop out to say "my life is this way purely because the big man in the sky made it that way"? Isn't it slightly more grander, and beautiful to say "my life is this way because I made it this way"? Furthermore, what is faith? It's a belief in something that cannot be proven to exist.
Delphic Raven: It's like a 4 year old having an imaginary friend... it's cute at that age. The 4 year old has faith that the imaginary person is there... while the adults look at each other and smile with that "we all know this is just cute pretend" look... it's not a cop out, its a different way of looking at life.
Delphic Raven: but I have never understood how believing that I have full control over my life with no divine intervention is a cop out. To me, it's holding the reigns of control and letting no other driving force control me but me, which is the way it should be.
William : see our society going to "hell in a handbasket" because people have chosen to live their lives they way they want to, and not follow some fundamental rules that have been laid out for us. Even I can't choose a "religion" per say, but I still do believe there is a higher calling that I'm meant to adhere to, other than to let myself go and do what I think is right. Who am I to amke that kind of decision?
Delphic Raven: aren't you doing what you think is right already? Where is the tablet that lists all the absolute "rights" and "wrongs" out there? Aren't you already only relying on your own gut, your own mind to do what YOU think is right for YOU? If your right effects other people then so be it, but in the end your still just living for yourself like everyone else.
Delphic Raven: and I have to also debate you on the "going to hell in a handbasket" comment. Our world isn't any WORSE than it was during World War II, it's just more TELEVISED
William Cansler: OKay, maybe cop out is too strong a word, but in some way, humans are glad to throw away the "sky Daddy" thing in favor of what gratifies him in this world.
Delphic Raven: and believing in "sky daddy" isn't gratifying to you, personally, and your way of living in this world?
Delphic Raven: it's not a selfless act, to believe in sky daddy. It's just as self fulfilling and gratifying for the person wo believes in god, to believe in god, as it is for the atheist to not beleive in god.
William : aaaaand that's the VERY reason I let it go, my friend. I choose not to rebut that.
William : I just see things differently. What's wrong with that?
William : I just see things differently. What's wrong with that?
Delphic Raven: there is nothing wrong with that, but don't condemn the person who doesn't see the world your way, if you expect people to not condemn you for seeing the world your way. That view works both ways.
William Cansler: How I feel about it I (at least try to) keep it in my head, but sometimes it's difficult to when those you care about might need to see things a bit more clearly, than to fall into that which one might think of as being illusional.
Delphic Raven: what is seen as "clear" to you is seen as "dilusional" to someone else. Just because you believe it, and it helps your life, and your viewpoint, doesn't make it the best way to view the world for everyone IN the world. How can anyone else besides me posslibly say what I need to think, feel and do, to make my life in a most PERSONAL way more "clear" or "better"?
William Cansler: I think it does when you care about someone, and you might want to share options, look at different aspects. All I know is I've gone down the road your on, and I've looked at many different things. Ic an't say I've read the Koroan, or much anything on Scientology, but I've learned enough to KNOW that there is more to come after death. I KNOW IT for fact, but obviously this cannot be proven.
William : So, to the masses I keep my mouth shut for fear of retaliation.
William : or beeing thought of as "delusional".
Delphic Raven: you KNOW it because YOU FEEL IT, not because there is any scientific proof, or anyone who was dead for about 5 years has come back and said "lo... the afterlife is a place of personal bliss". You know what FEELS right to you, not what is LOGICALLY SOUND AND PROVABLE to everyone on the planet. Your "truth" is just that... YOUR truth, not everyone elses. It's the way YOU see the world. Why should I see the world the same way you do?
William : Okay, you can't put words in my mouth. How can you assume it nothing but what I "felt"? HOw wowuld you know? Where you there?
Delphic Raven: Did I say it was anything besides something you "felt"?
Delphic Raven: no
Delphic Raven: I said YOU FELT IT
William : It's been more than a feeling. It was an EXPERIENCE!
Delphic Raven: Yeah, shrooms was quite an experience too, does that make it religious?
William : But like I said, it cannot be proven
Delphic Raven: no, it can't be proven anymore than I can prove that there is a teapot in orbet around mars.
William: using the mushroom thing takes it out of context.
Delphic Raven: is it?
Delphic Raven: I don't think so
Delphic Raven: the experience I had on shrooms felt very holy
Delphic Raven: and very sacred in some ways.
Delphic Raven: it was quite an experience.
William : IF you saw a man fall to his death right in front of you, what beside witnessing this would you call it?
Delphic Raven: suicide.
Delphic Raven: or death by natural causes
Delphic Raven: heart attack maybe
William : but as you stand there watching it happen....
William : is this an illusion or something?
Delphic Raven: I have no idea where your going with this. People die all the time. The other week a friend of my boyfriend saw someone kill themselves. Are we saying this is proof of god? or a religious experience? He saw it happen, the guy was alive with fingerprints, DNA, family and everything else, so he's PROVEN to exist. This in no way has any bearing on your view of God, as the two are completely seperate from each other. No one has "seen" god, or "touched" god, or even fucked god... but people HAVE with that guy who crashed to his death.
William : I"m only trying to find out how far it goes until you consider seeing something as truly being in this physical reality
Delphic Raven: What do you mean by that? The physical reality is easy to define, as it's filled with physical things around us.
William : ...and I can guess you'd say that anything after death, no is part of a physical existance
Delphic Raven: well after death is bullshit no one can debate as no one has ever lived to talk about it. It's all assumption, it's all what makes you feel smooshy inside.
William : smooshy inside?
Delphic Raven: believing in god makes you feel good, right?
Delphic Raven: so you believe it
William : No.
Delphic Raven: beleiving in life after death makes you feel good
Delphic Raven: ah, so you believe it because you hate it? it makes you cold?
William : Believing in God makes me feel like I"m shit.
Delphic Raven: it has to do something for you, or you wouldn't believe it.
William : LIke I have a purpose
Delphic Raven: ah, then there you go. it makes you feel like you have a purpose, which makes your life feel more defined.
Delphic Raven: so god does that for you, the after life defines the undefinable, it defines that which no one knows or understands
Delphic Raven: so you believe in it.
Delphic Raven: the human mind is an incredible thing, we create the feelings we have, and experiences we have... it's very powerful. yours has created the experience of god.
Delphic Raven: mine hasn't
Delphic Raven: that's fine.
William : I think it's easy for me to say there is no God. It would take a lot of pressure off me, and I would go through my life with little though of how I would treat people. I feel like I would like "dog eat dog".
Delphic Raven: okay like christians or god believers treat each other any better than a non christian. Most people in prison are god believers... most people who fight in wars are god believers. Most people who commit crimes, believe in god. Most people who hurt people are god believers.
William : Most wars are started from god believers.
Delphic Raven: exactly, so if your saying that believing in god causes you to treat people any better, I'd stop and take a minute to look at the evidence around you... as it proves very highly the other way.
William : YEs, it does. I won't deny this.
William : but that's the way it's supposed to be unfortunately.
Delphic Raven: see here we get to this "suppose to be" again.. how to we know the way it's "suppose to be"? That's like saying "yes, there really is a fate out there.. and our lives really are pre-determined".... you treat people the way you do because that feels right to YOU.
William : I treat people the way God wants me to. I said there are funamental rules we are suppose to live by.
Delphic Raven: if we are going to tamper with "meant" and "suppose to be" how do you know that we weren't "meant" to have any proof of God's existence?
William : by saying "we" I mean me and other "christians" per say
William : It would seem obvious to me that we are suppose to go by FAITH. How many times is this written. By faith would imply that nothing can be proven.
William : Maybe I'm just stupid to think that
Delphic Raven: faith is nothing more than wishful thinking.
William : faith the substance of things unheard of. The evidence of things unseen
William : IN my own logic, I'd rather die believing, and there is, than to die not beliveing and there is.
Delphic Raven: It seems like a cop out to me to sell everything we see and have created in this world to a vision of something that isn't even there. It completely defines your life, how you treat people.. if you treat someone well just because god says your suppose to that is completely a-moral to me. If you treat someone well because you WANT to, and that feels right to YOU, then THAT is moral, because your doing it for YOU, not for eternal gratification
Delphic Raven: it's PERVERSE to attribute good deeds to a figment of imagination
Delphic Raven: and then back it with illogical fallasy, so you feel tingly inside
Delphic Raven: if I treat someone well, it's because I chose to, I decided that person deserved that treatement, not because an imaginary friend told met o.
Delphic Raven: If the world is going to hell in a handbasket in your view, then "
Delphic Raven: "be the change you want to see in the world"
Delphic Raven: but the saying "2 hands working accomplish more than 2 clasped in prayer"
Delphic Raven: rings very true.
William : okay, it doesn't make me feel tingly or smooshy inside. I choose to believe in something that others ahve a hard time with. I"m going down a narrow road here. I can't see this being a cop out. Taking the wide and easy pth is.
Delphic Raven: most of the united states is christian. I would say that saying "most have a hard time with it" is very... uh... embellished.
William : I say most because as though these christians say they are such... it's all a bunch of crap. It's why I'm chosen to stray from religion.
Delphic Raven: hahahahahahahaha and every other christian says the same damn thing about you and people like you.
Delphic Raven: cute.... none of the god believers can even agree on their own belief
William : Yes, they do
Delphic Raven: and they expect me to follow them when they bitch and moan and have pissing contests and interpret everything differently
Delphic Raven: all they can pretty much agree on is evidently god is exactly like santa
William : I beive in God, but refuse to fall into a sytem supported by a bunch of corrupt peolpe
Prayer: How to do nothing and feel like your doing something.