Hamby,

 I could not agree with you more.  Well said.  I don't care how good the sex is, if you are not going to be compatable in the long run it isn't worth continuing for the long run (i.e. kids).  And the only way to figure out compatability is through asking questions.

LINK TO ARTICLE

to the OP: read this post I made on child indoctrination. I agree with everything Hamby said. Taking children that young(any age actually) is asking for later resentment and deluded minds. they will believe ANTHING at that age,and it will stay.

Sorry to be rude, but shouldn't you have thought of this before you got involved with a theist? Even a recovering one(who goes to church?) Don't make your kids pay like this.

[MOD EDIT: replaced link text.  On the new board, the link was not functioning.  -HD]

  Remind her that Jesus scorned the church religion B.S.

so they killed him and his message

and are still doing it.

I'm speaking as an adult who was terrorized  by religion as a child.  Even if my parents hadn't been religious, they had no control over what I heard in Sunday School, church and the fundamentalist Christian school I attended.  Would you really let your impressionable children be exposed to the doctrines of original sin and hell?  Not all Christians believe the same thing.  What the pastor says in church may not be what the Sunday School teacher says when he / she is alone with the kids.  And kids are not always forthcoming when it comes to talking about something that scared them.  I know I wasn't.  Personally, I wouldn't let kids out of my sight near a church and I sure as hell would not take them to a church on purpose.

Plus, sexual predators hang out at churches because they know the kids are taught to do what adults say--without question.  I know of many sexual predators that used the churches and schools I attended as their own personal preying grounds.  One of them asked my mother if I could go with him into the church to help him find his bible.  After several incidents and a trial that took approximately 1/8th of my life, the church took the side of the predator and the court let the guy cop a plea.  Then there was the pastor / teacher who molested little boys until he was caught.  One of the boys committed suicide.

(My community was very small.  Nearly everyone knew everyone else.  There were about 80 to 100 students in the school - K through 12.)

This sort of thing is not limited to the Catholic Church.  I don't have statistics, but I bet it is just as rampant in Protestant churches.  The only reason we know about the Catholic problem is because they are organized.

Religion is poison and allowing it near impressionable children is unconscionable.  That opinion is not very popular in society at large, but it is one I hold very strongly.

Geirj, I want you to take this in the nicest possible way because you're a very valuable poster here, and I respect where you're coming from pretty much all the time.  Having said that, I really, really hate this argument tactic.  This is slightly less insulting than when a theist says, "You can't talk about my theism because you don't believe it, so there's no possible way for you to understand it,"  but only slightly less insulting.

The reason science is better than theism is because you don't have to be a bird to understand bird behavior.  You just have to trust the evidence and the scientific method.  While it's true that a person who isn't married to a theist can't claim to have felt the emotions in such an arrangement first hand, and a childless person can't claim to have experienced the complex emotions inherent in parenthood, it's damned insulting to suggest that they can't understand the emotions and complexities.  Any competent scientist with an accurate understanding of human psychology can understand parenthood in the same way he understands, say, the dynamics involved in drug addiction.  We don't insist that all psychologists spend several years of their life addicted to crack before they can counsel crack addicts.  Why would you insist that a person be a parent before they can speak about parenthood.

I've noticed that most of the time when people resort to this tactic, it's because they don't have anything better to bring to the table.

Since you're not the parent of a teenager who's been raised in a mixed religious/atheist household, I'd say you're less than qualified to diagnose your arrangement.  It's pretty easy to think it's great before the kids are in preschool.

(See.  It's a pretty crappy argument, isn't it?)

We're all entitled to our opinions on this matter.  I'd just like it well understood that this whole "you're not qualified to talk about this" thing is not a legitimate argument, and doesn't contribute any validity to your opinion.

Just be honest with yourself.  Do you really believe that your children will be terrorized in Sunday school?  As I grew up in a christian family I never had nightmares of burning in hell because I lied to someone.  Most of my problems came from my parents who always felt that I wasn't religious enough.

Think about what really concerns you about sending your children to church.  I have witnessed your situation in the past.  Families are torn apart because of it.  Seriously.   Churches see the non-religious parent as a danger to the child and seek to 'protect' the child from it's influence. 

Once you understand why  YOU have a problem with it, try to articulate your reasons in a way that your wife can understand.  For example, don't go on a rant about how evil the church is; she probably wont listen, and you'll make the situation even worse.

From your description it does not sound like your wife is fully indoctrinated, at least to the extent the catholic church would normally like to see its members. Nor does it sound like you and your wife have given much time to discussing the issue of religion at all up to now.

On that basis I am assuming that your question is being asked before your wife's full committment to sending the children to church has been ascertained by you. You are, in other words, making an assumption based on her affiliation to the church that she will naturally want the children to attend mass etc, and wondering how you can voice your opposition to this.

I would suggest therefore taking the exercise in a series of steps. The danger in these situations (and by "situations" I mean handling differences of opinion between couples, not necessarily questions of religion at all) is that one acts on assumptions that are in fact false, thereby opening possibilities of further misunderstanding, needless friction, argument and discord where in fact little or no grounds for these things really existed.

Firstly you must find out your wife's rationale. Many people send children to church simply because it's "done". Others (even non-religious people) weigh the social consequences as heavier should they not do so over if they should. Others are on automatic pilot in this regard and need only the gentlest of nudges to wake them up to the implications of their actions. You really need to talk to her first and foremost about how strongly held her opinion is, should she hold one at all. You don't even need to say at this point what your own view is - and especially if in doing so you merely cause her to be more entrenched in hers.

What you do next depends very much on what you learnt in the first step. If your wife is open to discussion on the matter then discuss it. Prepare in advance a list of reasons why you feel it will be detrimental to your children's welfare and well-being to risk indoctrination into a mindset that is designed to control the way they think. Make your points as specifically as possible. Don't embark on a quasi-theological debate about the pros and cons of rational thought over superstition. Accentuate instead the real danger of corrupting the (hopefully) evident signs exhibited already by your children in their own inimitable and personal way that they have already begun applying curiosity and rational assessment to understanding the world that both of you have brought them into. Demonstrate and stress their sense of wonderment at discovering things for themselves and their immense satisfaction when they do so. Provide examples to show that your opinion is not based on some atheistic theory but simply on valuing your children, and your encouragement that they should grow up as intelligent, independent people. You get the picture.

If, on the other hand, your wife is unwilling (or unable) to discuss the issue, then attempt a compromise. Not because you want them to be "half christian" but because evidence suggests that children with at least one parent grounded in reality have a better than fair chance of growing up to be people for whom rational thought means something. Explain that you are opposed in principle to almost every value your children are being made to forcibly adopt through her action, and that you - as a responsible parent - will do your utmost to correct every misconception and superstition they will receive, or even are likely to receive. Explain that you have no alternative but to do this as to do otherwise would be dishonesty on your part. It is up to her to decide whether her received religious values when acted on would include forcing someone into being dishonest, and if they do then maybe they are values that deserve a little scrutiny. That's her problem, not yours.

But in correcting their miseducation do not adopt the extremist approach. Question your children's take on religion as they express it and cause them to question it too. Let them discover the inaccuracy and innate irrationality of religion on their own terms, with nothing more from you by way of guidance than simple statements of fact and observation. Accentuate at all times scientific rationale and the joy of discovery. Do not, in other words, fall into the trap of thinking that indoctrination from one source merits or requires counter-indoctrination from another (you). And above all do not let your wife think that this is your strategy either. There is a real risk if you go down this road that the issue will overshadow all of your relationships within the family (a unit open to enough external stresses without introducing more from within). And I need not remind you of the adolescent's normal reaction to being preached at in any case, should you adopt that role at home in the cause of godlessness!

Play it by ear, never underestimate your children's own individual take on what's happening, take each step as it comes and, above all, keep it real. Good luck.

I'm an equal opportunity arguer.  Glad to help.

I will have to disappoint you a little, though.  You're the only person yet who doesn't seem to understand why my comments were relevant, so I'm going to avoid a lengthy threadjacking.  Should another question ever come up about the best way to raise a child, and you disagree with me, I'll call you out on the ad-hominem of "You're not a parent, therefore you're wrong."  If I offer an opinion, it is backed with data.  I don't have time for parents who think that personal anecdotes are valid arguments against data.

 I'm going to pile in here in support of Geirj. Hamby, it is the content of your comments that makes it obvious that you have little experience with marriage or child rearing. People like Geirj and I don't just throw that out there as an ad hominem because we want to discredit you. You should know by now that neither of us want to do that. It's nothing to be embarrassed about: I didn't know shit about marriage until it happened to me and I don't know anyone who did. Note I'm not saying that it is impossible to know anything about marriage and kids without experiencing it, just that it is clear that you don't have the perspective on these matters that would come from experience. I know, I know, you have done a lot of research. Believe me, the most in-depth, long-range, multi-participant study ever invented could never begin to scratch the surface of the complexities Geirj and I deal with every day.

The idea that two people would find out everything they need to know about each other and come to mutual agreement on all important points before getting married is a great one on paper. Unfortunately, it is impossible. There are just too many things to have opinions about in this world for everything to be discussed and agreed upon in advance. There are so many things that it is probably statistically impossible, even with 6 billion people to choose from, that you would ever find someone who does agree on everything. Add to that the human reality that people who are in love want to be together and do not want to enter into terminal disagreements that will destroy the relationship. That has a pretty serious chilling effect on any controversial conversations.

I realize that this is an argument from irrationality, but you show me a rational marriage and I'll show you a marriage doomed to failure. Marriages happen and work because people fall in love with one another and share a determination to be together even when it is impractical, inconvenient and even painful.

Even leaving all that aside, it is not uncommon at all for people's opinions to change over time. Many people go into marriage with no intention of having their kids baptized or attending church, then find they feel completely different once the kids are actually old enough to do these things. Should one party be blamed because the other changes his/her mind?

I don't think it is necessarily true at all that the kids will be all fucked up because the parents disagree on religion. The important thing is that the parents love each other and the kids and that everyone knows that. The other important thing is that no one in the family lets the issue of religion become more important than the love thing. It is also helpful if the parents work together to compromise and make sure the kids cannot use the religion issue as a wedge to play one of them off against the other. It is true that often all this stuff doesn't happen. It is also true that it often does. It is even more true that kids are very resilient and are capable of surviving and thriving even in families where the parents are carrying out low-level war over issues like this.

In the final analysis, there are no perfect circumstances for marriage or child rearing, but, obviously, people have to try anyway. I wouldn't get all pissed off at people for getting into situations that are suboptimal when optimal situations are nothing but a Hollywood fantasy. 

...So, because you didn't know what marriage would be like until you were married, and nobody in your social network knew what it would be like until they were married, it must be incomprehensible to the bachelor (however educated)?

Actually, that's exactly wha you just asserted. Almost word for word.

This is exactly the same argument as, "Well, of course I can't prove God. He's beyond human understanding. You just have to trust me and feel the Holy Spirit moving through you for yourself."

Basically, you're saying that marriage is this mystical social contract, floating above and beyond what empirical study might be able to tell us. And, of course, without supplying any supporting statement beyond, "Aw, c'mon. Just trust me, man."

 EDIT: If you guys want to take this one to the mat with me or whomever, I started a new thread so this one doesn't get derailed.