RRS refuses the damage caused by atheists? [mailbag]

Sapient
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RRS refuses the damage caused by atheists? [mailbag]

Quote:

From: Kbraun3394@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: [General Question] Atheist support

 Ken Brown sent a message using the contact form at
 http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.
 
You blast religion but refuse the damage caused by atheist, i.e. Marx, Stalin, Mao, and others about 150 million innocent people killed by the
 good atheist. LOL

 The difference of course is that none of those people ever killed in the name of atheism.   Further more you are actually referring to religion and don't realize it.  In communist states, the government is god.  You are forced to adhere to dogmatic love of country.  That is religion, and we are fighting against that as well. 

Good luck with your cookie cutter outdated theistic drivel.


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latincanuck
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    Yes I always love the

    Yes I always love the communist atheist tie in, Marx never killed anyone actually, Stalin, well state and goverment was the religion, however with that said he wasn't exactly opposed to using the church to get what he wanted as well and the church was happy to oblige, as for Mao....again communist dogma, last time I checked RRS is again these types of dogmas. But hey, they were atheists and all atheists are exactly alike.....what a wanker.


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As many have pointed out,

As many have pointed out, but few have mentally digested, any regime that outlaws contrary viewpoints is essentially religion.  In religion, they outlaw science and other religions.  In communism, they outlaw any science or philosophy that contradicts communism, to the point of jailing or killing people who insist on disagreeing.

Atheism, as many have pointed out, but few have mentally digested, is not a philosophy.  It is a lack of belief in god.  Period.  An atheist may be a capitalist, a communist, a socialist, or anything else he chooses.  His choice may be judged against its socioeconomic results, but it may not be judged against his atheism, for the two are completely unrelated.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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NickB
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What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? Stalin and Marx killed people because they have moustaches and people with moustaches are evil...... everybody knows that. I am sure we could find many, many things that Stalin, Marx and Mao have in common and blame what they did on that.  If you abandon logic and look at facts you can make up all kinds of crazy shit. You are just drawing conclusions based on incomplete evidence.  Maybe all three of them had ingrown nails, we certainly won’t blame ingrown nails for their actions. However blaming ingrown nails makes jsut as much sense as blaming their lack of belief in a God.

Also the amount of deaths you associate to these people is completely false and has no basis in history or fact.

My second and perhaps much more important point is the fact that Christians are guilty of genocide too. Look no further than George Bush, he is a strong Christian and he has the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent people on his hands. Countless civilians die in Iraq daily, women, babies, kids slaughtered like cattle. It is estimated that since the war begun over 750,000 civilians have died. Sure they don't show it on television but hundreds of civilians are killed daily by America because of a war started by Bush. 

How about ethnic cleansing in the Bosnian war? The genocide perpetrated by the Christians massacring Muslims indiscriminately, men, women, and children. Muslims done the same to thousands of Christians.

Hitler was a Christian and he is responsible for the death of near 6 million Jewish people. Beyond that the war he started lead to the deaths of close to 50 million people.

The crusades lead to an estimated 1.5 million deaths and they were fought for religion.

Do you want me to continue? I could go to Africa and totally fuck your argument up beyond repair. Genocide in Africa is still occurring on a daily basis and it is driven in part by religion.

Here is a novel idea, pick up a fucking history book before you make a complete idiot of yourself.

If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.


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In so far as those people

In so far as those people were 'atheists', they certainly were not 'good' atheists, by any stretch. as far as we are concerned.

I often wonder how much Stalin learned about techniques of controlling people's thoughts and beliefs from his training to be a priest in a Orthodox seminary....

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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I tend to think we shouldn't

I tend to think we shouldn't call Communism a religion. It's an idea, a philosophy, a political position. Perhaps yes it has many traits in common with religion but to call it a religion just doesn't sit well with me.

person A: What religion are you?

person B: Communist.

 

Doesn't really make sense.

I think the sensible answer is to say that any person or group that seizes state power and erects a dictatorship will inevitably do nasty shit. It doesn't matter what its in the name of, it's the fact they have a monopoly on power. So in the case of Marxist-Lenninists/Stalinists/Maoists it's their belief (and implementation) that all property should belong to a highly centralized government that was the problem, not their atheism.


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cam wrote:I tend to think we

cam wrote:

I tend to think we shouldn't call Communism a religion. It's an idea, a philosophy, a political position. Perhaps yes it has many traits in common with religion but to call it a religion just doesn't sit well with me.

person A: What religion are you?

person B: Communist.

 

Doesn't really make sense.

I think the sensible answer is to say that any person or group that seizes state power and erects a dictatorship will inevitably do nasty shit. It doesn't matter what its in the name of, it's the fact they have a monopoly on power. So in the case of Marxist-Lenninists/Stalinists/Maoists it's their belief (and implementation) that all property should belong to a highly centralized government that was the problem, not their atheism.

I'll give you that socialism is a political philosophy, but communism IS a religion. Just replace the proletatiat with Jesus Christ  and "True Communism" with the Kingdom of Heaven, and the the End of History with the End Times, and you've gone from communism to Christianity.

“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”


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Sam Harris addressed this

Sam Harris addressed this issue best in reference to North Korea.

 

"The problem with fascism and communism was not that they are too critical of religion, it's that they are too much like religions...is too much skeptical inquiery what is wrong (with North Korea)?"

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

-James Madison-


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Thank you.I am so sick of

Thank you.

I am so sick of theists trying to paint atheists as all wanting to be dictators. Theocracies like Saudi Arabia are dictatorships. Iran is a dictatorship by one party and so is North Korea.

These all have one thing in common, worship of the state which is obedience to authority. What does God want his creations to do? Obey him.

In western civil societies laws are made, not from absolute rule, but by consensus. When we want to challenge a law or change a law, we do so through discourse and debate and we elect people to do that for us by the voter's consent. If we feel like our elected politicians are not doing a good job of that, we can throw them out of office via election.

The God character is not democratic. He is an authoritarian dictator and you do what he says or else.

None of the atheists I know would want to live in a dictatorship and certainly we would not want to worship a dictator.

 

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I think people make the

I think people make the mistake since we talk in their realm so much, that it's only "us vs. Christians."  The religious discussion is a big part of it, but at the core of most of what we're about is rooting out this irrational shit anywhere.   Skeptical inquiry is also a sticky opponent of quack medicine, astrology, and really any other bullshit that people believe without good reason.  Religion happens to be a big one, but retarded governments on any basis are right up there.


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Agreed.  Under Communism,

Agreed.  Under Communism, the state was the higher power that everyone must serve, implicitly obey and sacrifice their individuality to. 

This was the method, abhorrent as it was, used to obtain complete control of the minds of its followers and stamp out freethought.  Under that system the dominant worldview being sold must be followed to the exclusion of all others. 

Both Religion and Communism seek to achieve the same objective, often using the same methods.  While there are quotes by both Stalin and Mao critical of religion, I don't think religion was ever really viewed as hostile because it was "irrational" or necessarily harmful, but because it was a competitor.

The religious leader and the Communist one were not so much enemies as they were competitors wielding different weapons but inflicting the same damage and destroying the quality of human life in the process. 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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FulltimeDefendent wrote:cam

FulltimeDefendent wrote:

cam wrote:

I tend to think we shouldn't call Communism a religion. It's an idea, a philosophy, a political position. Perhaps yes it has many traits in common with religion but to call it a religion just doesn't sit well with me.

person A: What religion are you?

person B: Communist.

 

Doesn't really make sense.

I think the sensible answer is to say that any person or group that seizes state power and erects a dictatorship will inevitably do nasty shit. It doesn't matter what its in the name of, it's the fact they have a monopoly on power. So in the case of Marxist-Lenninists/Stalinists/Maoists it's their belief (and implementation) that all property should belong to a highly centralized government that was the problem, not their atheism.

I'll give you that socialism is a political philosophy, but communism IS a religion. Just replace the proletatiat with Jesus Christ  and "True Communism" with the Kingdom of Heaven, and the the End of History with the End Times, and you've gone from communism to Christianity.

 

Being a Communist is about as much as a religion as being a Democrat or Republican.

 

Communism is a political stance, not a religious one.

 

Religion is a belief in God, now you may say Stalin or Mao was the God of the state, but last I checked nobody thought neither created the universe nor did they do anything that would really qualify them as 'Gods'.

 


latincanuck
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Actually it has religious

Actually it has religious dogmas, like stated replace god with the state (or goverment) replace heaven with social utopia (Russia, China and North Korea have used this Idea of a perfect social utopia), then change the obedience to god to obedience to the government NO QUESTIONS ASKED (happens at least in those three countries as well as in Cuba) and in religion if one questions the religious authorities they are branded as heretic, and in a mild form just kicked out of the church or excommunicated, at the worst killed. So yes Communism and religion have much in common, far more than democratic or republican states in which freedom of thought, expression and the ability to question the government is allowed.


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latincanuck wrote:Actually

latincanuck wrote:

Actually it has religious dogmas, like stated replace god with the state (or goverment) replace heaven with social utopia (Russia, China and North Korea have used this Idea of a perfect social utopia), then change the obedience to god to obedience to the government NO QUESTIONS ASKED (happens at least in those three countries as well as in Cuba) and in religion if one questions the religious authorities they are branded as heretic, and in a mild form just kicked out of the church or excommunicated, at the worst killed. So yes Communism and religion have much in common, far more than democratic or republican states in which freedom of thought, expression and the ability to question the government is allowed.

 

You said that  it has 'religious dogmas' which implies that Religion is the only source of Dogma.

 

Communism does have dogmas, but they extend to political stances, not religious ones. It's a political viewpoint, not a religious one.

 

You can be a Communist and an atheist, Christian, whatever.....

 

One's a political stance (Communism..) and the other is the Religious one (Christian etc...)

 

 


 

[edit: clarity]

 

 

 


latincanuck
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What I mean't that it was a

What I mean't that it was a dogma, to the point of religiousness, that the head of state or the government themselves replace god, and that strict adherence to the views of Communism is required and that one cannot question the authority of the state, such like those in religious dogmas. Heaven is replaced with utopia. Any dogma that does not allow free thinking and allow the ability to question those in power is dangerous and leads to massive abuse of power. As done by various churches around the world of all religious beliefs, as well as those in facists and communists states.


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latincanuck wrote:What I

latincanuck wrote:

What I mean't that it was a dogma, to the point of religiousness, that the head of state or the government themselves replace god, and that strict adherence to the views of Communism is required and that one cannot question the authority of the state, such like those in religious dogmas. Heaven is replaced with utopia. Any dogma that does not allow free thinking and allow the ability to question those in power is dangerous and leads to massive abuse of power. As done by various churches around the world of all religious beliefs, as well as those in facists and communists states.

 

What I don't understand is ' to the point of religiousness'.

It seems to me that it's a false equivocation akin to 'Joe watches the Toronto Maple Leafs religiously'

I believe the word for something that constitutes dogma is called an ideology.


 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Being a

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Being a Communist is about as much as a religion as being a Democrat or Republican.

 

 

Just for reference, are we talking about the US democrats and republican? Sticking out tongue

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I think at root here are

I think at root here are different ideas about what exactly constitutes a religion, and whether it is necessary for a religion to express supernatural claims. I don't think this is the case, even though I would argue that most religions do. I consider communism to be extremely similar to, if not, a religion, in the sense that religion is about the practice of worship. In the case of communism, the object of worship is the state (theoretically) or a charismatic leader (historically). In the latter sense, it is quite similar to a cult.

 

 

“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”


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Marxism is NOT a religion!

 

 

Marxism is a philosophy whose goal is to relieve the suffering of mankind by eliminating the economic disparities between those who own the means of production and those who do the work. Socialism, the common ownership of corporations solely by the people who work there, is niversally recognized as the first transition from exploitative capitalism. During this phase of societal and economic evolution, there will be a need for more or less traditional governments and their services (security, medical, transportation infrastructure, education, etc). Marx felt that socialism would replace capitalism worldwide much sooner than it actually has.

Communism is a utopian society of the far future where technology and industry produce so much material wealth with so little labor required by people that the need for government as we know it will disappear. No one has ever had a communist society, and although many Marxist political parties call themselves "Communist," it is an ideal rather than a practical goal.

Marxism is thoroughly based on dialectical materialism, which Marx adapted from Hegel and Feuerbach in the 1840's. While it is true that many socialists are Christian ( the Irish Socialist Party starts its annual convention with a Mass), Marxism and theism are really mutually exclusive. Marxism has no use for supernatural explanations for the causality of the natural universe, the events of individuals' lives, or the events of history.

Marx was a Lutheran who became an atheist before he became a Marxist. Stalin was a Russian Orthodox seminarian before he became an atheist and a "Communist." Hitler lived and died a Catholic, and if you look closely, so were Francisco Franco, Benito Mussolini, and Augusto Pinochet. Fascism, comrades, openly and vigorously supports a Christian society.

Contemporary Marxists have never considered the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of North Korea, or the People's Republic of China as Communist, or even really as socialist. They are, according to the evaluation of Leon Trotsky, nations that practice "state capitalism" because the government, not the workers, centrally manage all production and appropriate the surplus value of the workers for state revenues.

Marxism is not a religion, it is the self-directed societal evolution of the human species.

 

WWMD

 

Imagine what America would be like if the people who worked at Walmart were the only people who owned Walmart.


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WTF?

Who did Marx kill?


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latincanuck wrote:What I

latincanuck wrote:

What I mean't that it was a dogma, to the point of religiousness, that the head of state or the government themselves replace god, and that strict adherence to the views of Communism is required and that one cannot question the authority of the state, such like those in religious dogmas. Heaven is replaced with utopia. Any dogma that does not allow free thinking and allow the ability to question those in power is dangerous and leads to massive abuse of power. As done by various churches around the world of all religious beliefs, as well as those in facists and communists states.

The same is true of capitalism, for instance. Most political or economic concepts have a dogmatic side to them.

What has been tried so far is socialist communism, not anarchic communism. Just to be perfectly clear, I don't believe anarchic communism ("real" communism) would work any better, but it would lack a central "state" concept, which seems to be tied to discussions of the "religious" aspects of communism.

Also, I don't believe democratic communism would work, either. But I don't think we've found an ideal government, or an ideal economic model.

Anyway, dogmatism != religion, just like religion != dogmatism. There's a correlation 'twixt the two, but I suspect many of us are just as dogmatic about certain beliefs. (Me included.)

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers