Christians are really atheists in the closet.
Offline I believe Christians don't really believe the bible is anything more than myth. Most are agnostic on whether any supernatural god exists.
If you hooked up Christians to lie detectors and you asked are you 100% sure god exists and the miracles of the bible is literally true, here is what I would expect: 99.9% would fail, the 0.1% that passes would be so delusional in other areas of their life they should be locked up in a mental hospital to avoid injury to themselves and others. Here is the evidence of why I believe this.
1. Most Christians believe because they were indoctrinated as children, the fear and desire for parental approval still has a hold on them as adults.
2. They are suckers for Pascal's wager. Even Rick Warren uses this argument as his reason for belief. It's not a real belief, just hedging your bet.
3. They don't discuss the wacky things they believe except in private with other "believers" or anonymously on the Internet.
4. They don't live lives as risk takers. If you were 100% sure you'd be in Paradise when you die, you'd be a daredevil and be careless about doing things that risk your life. Instead you see the little old lady driving slow to church, no daredevils, they are terrified of death instead of looking forward to it. They are not anxious to lay down their life for a friend.
5. They refuse to take challenges to their "faith" like a lie detector test or a scientific study to prove if their god really does answer any prayers. Instead they lie to themselves and others.
6. They don't understand what the bible really teaches. If you really believed a book was of a supernatural source, you would study it continually and understand every aspect of it. When you talk to most Christians they don't know much about what it say. In fact, the more you learn about the bible and it's sources they more likely you will disbelieve.
Stop global whining.
I think most "moderate" (i.e. pussy) theists don't really believe their religion. They believe in belief, not in God himself... at least not exactly the same god they say they believe in.
What you're missing here is that belief and cognitive dissonance are really strange bedfellows. Consider kidnap victims who become attached to their kidnappers. Even after their release, they still believe the delusion, often for the rest of their lives. That's after a short brainwashing ordeal. Theists, on the other hand, have been brainwashed for their whole life.
Unfortunately, I think most of the fundies in pews genuinely do believe in their bizarre (and macabre) version of the universe. I think that you have to get up into the more educated, socially motivated moderate Christians before you find many people who are closet atheists.
Credulity is much easier to sustain when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.
-- Me
Thank you for this hard hitting well thought out analysis on the Theist population which consists of approx 2/3 of the population based on your own thoughts.
I'll keep this in mind and look forward for more that will no doubt shake what we thought of Theists to it's very core and make us never look back.
If at first an idea does not sound absurd, then there is no hope for it ~Albert Einstein
We all think your idea is crazy, the question is "Is it crazy enough?" ~Niels Bohr
I am curious to know what other freethinkers would guess the results would be if we could hook up "believers" to lie detectors. Would it be about 1 in 1000 as I see. More or less? Why? What would it be for pastors?
Anyway we could get "Christians" to volunteer for such an experiment? I was thinking someone should do like the game show Exposed on MTV. Get the voice analysis software to analyze so-called "believers" when they answer questions about their faith. This would make for great entertainment on RRTV.
Stop global whining.
I think it would be absolutely wonderful to get say, 25 each of fundies, moderates protestants, catholics, and say, mormons, and give them tests with the newer polygraphs that actually record brain activity, in an MRI.
I know I've already weighed in, but here's a more specific response to what I think the percentages would be:
Fundamentalists/evangelicals:
85% believe in the god of the bible, as preached
10% believe in a different version of god, but stay for family, etc.
5% are closet atheists (I bet this includes a LOT of the preachers, actually.)
Moderates (mainstream protestants)
60% believe in the god of the bible, as preached
25% believe in a fuzzy, undefined god, but stay in Christianity for family, etc.
10% believe that belief in god is good, but don't know if god is real
5% closet atheists
Anyway, that's just my guess. I'd love to see the lie detector results.
Credulity is much easier to sustain when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.
-- Me
I see it more of a case of they never brought themself to question. If they do start questioning it's more that they don't have the answers, and seeking out the answers is something that would bore them so they just keep going with what they know whether it's right or wrong.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
How true. They deliberately keep themselves ignorant of many things of the bible because then they'd have to question the truth of events recorded in this book.
It is hilarious to watch Christopher Hitchens debate "believers" then he has to remind them of what their bible really says. I don't see how the percentages of true "believers" could be very high when you only only have a very small percentage of church attenders that understand much about what the bible records.
Stop global whining.
As someone with a great interest in science, I request that you first show that lie detectors actually work as claimed.
-Triften
If a large majority of Christians were closet atheists, I'd think that most of them would be so deep in the closet that they don't even know they are in the closet.
I'd think that a significant amount of Christians would have a rather high confidence in their beliefs, but not high enough that they would be willing to risk a lot on it.
I'd also think that a significant amount never really think about their beliefs. I know that I was a member of these last two groups...
"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought
This reminds me of a quote. I don't remember who said it, or what his exact words were, but it was pretty much this:
If anyone can clear up for me the exact words, and the name of the guy who said it, that'd be great.
Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.
Thus my name daretoknow. One of the hardest things in my life was my conversion. I look back and laugh now, but it was not funny while it was happening. I find that the more I understand the more responsibilty I feel. The truth can be a bitch, but I say dare to know
thats cute
The newest technology I know if is called FMRI, which actually scans the brain as the questions are being asked. This has been tested quite a bit and has an accuracy of 90% (disputed accuracy from 70-99%), even while people attempt to beat it.
To get better than 90%, you might have to define what a lie is. If someone says something that is red is blue, and they really think it is blue, is that lying? If someone has schizophrenia and states something you know is false, is that a lie? In these cases should the lie detector report that as a truth or lie?.. You might think they are truths in that person's mind, but what if the lie detector said it was a lie, accurately reporting it, perhaps detecting the activity in the schizophrenic part of their brain (whatever that is) and compensating.
Any more than 90% accuracy would be very hard to define with our current understanding of the human brain. Besides, with 90% accuracy, in the application we want it for, a few more tests would make up the difference for statistical reasons.
Yep. The new lie detectors are next to impossible to "beat." They can give nebulous readings, but in virtually all cases, the vagueness is not from uncertainty about a lie, but from a peculiarity about the particular question/answer/subject combination.
Basically, when you lie, and you know you're lying, you can't help which part of your brain lights up.
Credulity is much easier to sustain when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.
-- Me