Jesus is about freedom

MattShizzle
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Jesus is about freedom

I actually seen someone on another site say that Jesus is all about freedom. My jaw almost dropped. Who ever said that either doesn't know what Jesus supposedly said or has some strange definition of freedom.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Matt Churchman wrote:"I said

Matt Churchman wrote:

"I said that the personality traits that make up you are things that are taught to you by other people (parents, friends, mentors). "

That's exactly what I meant by social constructionist. It would be a combination of biological responses to environment and experience. But if you are no more than biology (which adheres to certain laws and systems) then your responses to these situations or "things you're taught be people" would be predetermined by your biological make-up.

I get what you're saying now about exortion...and I agree that this idea has been abused by religious institutions in order to guilt people into behaving in a certain way...like if a religious leader says "true Christians support the President ect.". But I mean this is irrelevant really because an atheist could just as easily abuse the idea that there is no sould and attempt to convince someone to behave in a certain manner that may not truely be in their best interests...of course any idea can be exploited by the perverse and power hungry.

OK. what are you with God then?

My experiences indicate that humans are simultaneously the pinnacle of creation (mad a little lower than the angels) beneath God's contempt. A recipe for schizophrenia if one ever existed.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Archeoptryx

 :P no snarkiness implied here. I just meant that because of your beliefs it is not likely that this sort of idea would be very interesting to you. Thanks for your comments though...got me thinking which is always a good thing.


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jcgadfly

"OK. what are you with God then?

My experiences indicate that humans are simultaneously the pinnacle of creation (mad a little lower than the angels) beneath God's contempt. A recipe for schizophrenia if one ever existed."

Sorry, I'm trying to understand your points here? What am I with God? and schizophrenia? Could you maybe just formulate the question in another way so I can see what you're trying to get at. Probably my fault but just if you could clarify tha would be cool.


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Matt Churchman wrote:"OK.

Matt Churchman wrote:

"OK. what are you with God then?

My experiences indicate that humans are simultaneously the pinnacle of creation (mad a little lower than the angels) beneath God's contempt. A recipe for schizophrenia if one ever existed."

Sorry, I'm trying to understand your points here? What am I with God? and schizophrenia? Could you maybe just formulate the question in another way so I can see what you're trying to get at. Probably my fault but just if you could clarify tha would be cool.

Simple question really. To God, most humans are simultaneously special (fearfully and wonderfully made - the lower than the angels was supposedly for Jesus alone - my mistake unless you claim that joint heirs crud. ) and scum. You're playing his spokesbeing so you must think you have a different standing.

What is it? Did I misread Psalm 139 and Isaih 64 wrong? Tell me what God meant to say. You seem to know.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly

Hey again,

Okay I get your question. I think the confusion just had to do with...that I thought your question had something to do with what we were talking about so I was trying to fish out how that connection could be made.

Just to clarify though, I don't want to pretend to know more than I do and the title of 'spokesbeing' is a little too big of a responsibility for me. But I will try to answer your question as best I can from my understanding. Now first, neither one of these passages are the words of God...so your question "what is God trying to say" is kind of off. They are the records of human beings in relationship with God. One is a song or Praise (Pslam 139) and the other is a kind of of lament or prayer from the prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 64). The Psalmist is simply acknoweldging God's role in the creation of human beings and that this creation is beautiful...it is the creation singing the praises of the Creator. Isaiah seems to be talking about how at this time in history (context is important) people are turing from God and behaving in ways contrary to their best interests...their free-will has caused them to stray from the abundant life for which God has designed these beautiful beings to live. There's really no contradiction here as best I can see. I hate these father child analogies 'cause they are so played out...but a father can at once acknowledge the beauty of his son/daughter while still acknowledging his/her faults or the areas where he/she has taken a wrong turn. I mean, even as an atheist, if you are a humanist you beleive that there is something special or beautiful about human beings. At the same time you can just turn on the news and see all the ways in which we have corrupted that right? So yeah, to answer you question - these aren't the direct words of God, however they are true...so a little of column A and little of column B..they arent contradictory so we can be both.

If you have any further insights about the whole mind/brain/soul/self questions I posed I would love to hear from you on that. As well if you have any more questions I am open and will do my best to answer them.

Peace and Love


jcgadfly
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Matt Churchman wrote:Hey

Matt Churchman wrote:

Hey again,

Okay I get your question. I think the confusion just had to do with...that I thought your question had something to do with what we were talking about so I was trying to fish out how that connection could be made.

Just to clarify though, I don't want to pretend to know more than I do and the title of 'spokesbeing' is a little too big of a responsibility for me. But I will try to answer your question as best I can from my understanding. Now first, neither one of these passages are the words of God...so your question "what is God trying to say" is kind of off. They are the records of human beings in relationship with God. One is a song or Praise (Pslam 139) and the other is a kind of of lament or prayer from the prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 64). The Psalmist is simply acknoweldging God's role in the creation of human beings and that this creation is beautiful...it is the creation singing the praises of the Creator. Isaiah seems to be talking about how at this time in history (context is important) people are turing from God and behaving in ways contrary to their best interests...their free-will has caused them to stray from the abundant life for which God has designed these beautiful beings to live. There's really no contradiction here as best I can see. I hate these father child analogies 'cause they are so played out...but a father can at once acknowledge the beauty of his son/daughter while still acknowledging his/her faults or the areas where he/she has taken a wrong turn. I mean, even as an atheist, if you are a humanist you beleive that there is something special or beautiful about human beings. At the same time you can just turn on the news and see all the ways in which we have corrupted that right? So yeah, to answer you question - these aren't the direct words of God, however they are true...so a little of column A and little of column B..they arent contradictory so we can be both.

If you have any further insights about the whole mind/brain/soul/self questions I posed I would love to hear from you on that. As well if you have any more questions I am open and will do my best to answer them.

Peace and Love

Let me get this straght - you accept that there are some things in the book you call God's Holy Word that aren't God's or holy? Words that are just words?

You''re almost an atheist now - take the next step. Acknowledge that none of the words in that book are God's and the whole thing is the work of the mind of men.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly

Did you even read my post? First, of all I did say that I agreed with both of these passages and asserted that they are in fact not at all contradictory for the reasons mentioned above.

Furthermore, the passages you mentioned weren't meant to be portrayed as the words of God directly...they are clearly the words of Isaiah and the Psalmist communicating with God. Why would I attribute these words to God and how does that affect the authority of scripture? Either way I still said that I agree with both the representations made by Isaiah and the Psalmist. I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here...if you are going to challenge a Christian on theological issues then you should probably do some research into what it is that we beleive. Like say the character Herod calls for the head of John the Baptist..under you reasoning I should take those to be the words of God or I am denying scripture as a whole to be the Word of God?

And I hope that the last lines here were a joke...or made in jest...otherwise they could come across as rude. If they are just said in fun then maybe you should just put in a little smiley face, in that case I would laugh ' cause they are kinda funny. Otherwise it is like a religious person saying "you are almost there, you almost know the truth, just take that next step and accept what you know to be true". Don't you hate it when they say shit like that Sticking out tongue <--- see that means i'm being funny.

Peace and Love


jcgadfly
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Matt Churchman wrote:Did you

Matt Churchman wrote:

Did you even read my post? First, of all I did say that I agreed with both of these passages and asserted that they are in fact not at all contradictory for the reasons mentioned above.

Furthermore, the passages you mentioned weren't meant to be portrayed as the words of God directly...they are clearly the words of Isaiah and the Psalmist communicating with God. Why would I attribute these words to God and how does that affect the authority of scripture? Either way I still said that I agree with both the representations made by Isaiah and the Psalmist. I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here...if you are going to challenge a Christian on theological issues then you should probably do some research into what it is that we beleive. Like say the character Herod calls for the head of John the Baptist..under you reasoning I should take those to be the words of God or I am denying scripture as a whole to be the Word of God?

And I hope that the last lines here were a joke...or made in jest...otherwise they could come across as rude. If they are just said in fun then maybe you should just put in a little smiley face, in that case I would laugh ' cause they are kinda funny. Otherwise it is like a religious person saying "you are almost there, you almost know the truth, just take that next step and accept what you know to be true". Don't you hate it when they say shit like that Sticking out tongue <--- see that means i'm being funny.

Peace and Love

You are right - I should've put a smiley there. Probably this one . My apologies.

Leaves my question still out there though - Why are such things in the book you consider God's word? If there are some things you know are just from men or allegory, how do you know what to take seriously? From what I've seen of Christians that standard is "I'll take the parts of the Bible seriously that don't take much effort or that agree with my way of thinking. The scene you mention drives the Jesus plot but little else. Doesn't really have a lot to do with God's supposed operating in people's lives.

What research would you like me to do? I was a Nazarene before I had questions that they couldn't answer. Which brand of the "true Christianity" do you claim?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly

"Leaves my question still out there though - Why are such things in the book you consider God's word? If there are some things you know are just from men or allegory, how do you know what to take seriously?"

Well Ive found it's pretty clear. Like if the Bible says "God said..." then I can reasonable assume that those are the words of God. If the Bible says "Isaiah the prophet says...to God" then I can reasonable assume that the author is simply saying these are the words of Isaiah to God.  These sorts of passages totally drives the Jesus plot. They are also crucial because the entire Bible is, among other things, about Gods relationship with humanity...and these passages are specific details about that relationship and in the context of the OT they show us the ways in which God operated in moving forward the nation of Israel ect. Many of the Psalms have been credited to David, and so since David is a major figure in the OT, we get to see some the psychology of David, what made him so righteous and what was the nature of his relationship to God. I could go on and on...

What kind of research?...ask questions (like we're doing now), read authors like N.T. Wright, Cavey or some other biblical scholars that could give you insight into Christian theology. I don't know what questions you've attempted to ask that people couldnt answer...for the most part there are possbile answers and of course if we are talking about things of God it is hard to imagine we could possibly understand everything about the nature of God using human language and logic.  To suppose this would already be denying the possiblility of God being God. Like 'if God can't fit inside my human brain then God isn't God' - Of course I don't mean that as a cop-out...I do think there are logical answers to most of your questions...but just like anything there are going to be areas we don't understand. That's waht I keep saying...there is no such thing as 100% certainty of anything...but one can be certain enough to live by what they beleive.

As to what brand of 'true' Christianity I adhere to...well I follow Christ...I study scripture and creation...I pray and meditate and try to work to maintain a healthy relationship with my Creator..follow the guidance and wisdom of God and the one's who've come before me. You know...I'm a Jesus follower...that's all there is to it and while there may be some minor differences between denominations the core message is consistent. That's how I feel about that. Hope that was helpful.

Peace and Love

 

 


jcgadfly
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Matt Churchman wrote:"Leaves

Matt Churchman wrote:

"Leaves my question still out there though - Why are such things in the book you consider God's word? If there are some things you know are just from men or allegory, how do you know what to take seriously?"

Well Ive found it's pretty clear. Like if the Bible says "God said..." then I can reasonable assume that those are the words of God. If the Bible says "Isaiah the prophet says...to God" then I can reasonable assume that the author is simply saying these are the words of Isaiah to God.  These sorts of passages totally drives the Jesus plot. They are also crucial because the entire Bible is, among other things, about Gods relationship with humanity...and these passages are specific details about that relationship and in the context of the OT they show us the ways in which God operated in moving forward the nation of Israel ect. Many of the Psalms have been credited to David, and so since David is a major figure in the OT, we get to see some the psychology of David, what made him so righteous and what was the nature of his relationship to God. I could go on and on...

What kind of research?...ask questions (like we're doing now), read authors like N.T. Wright, Cavey or some other biblical scholars that could give you insight into Christian theology. I don't know what questions you've attempted to ask that people couldnt answer...for the most part there are possbile answers and of course if we are talking about things of God it is hard to imagine we could possibly understand everything about the nature of God using human language and logic.  To suppose this would already be denying the possiblility of God being God. Like 'if God can't fit inside my human brain then God isn't God' - Of course I don't mean that as a cop-out...I do think there are logical answers to most of your questions...but just like anything there are going to be areas we don't understand. That's waht I keep saying...there is no such thing as 100% certainty of anything...but one can be certain enough to live by what they beleive.

As to what brand of 'true' Christianity I adhere to...well I follow Christ...I study scripture and creation...I pray and meditate and try to work to maintain a healthy relationship with my Creator..follow the guidance and wisdom of God and the one's who've come before me. You know...I'm a Jesus follower...that's all there is to it and while there may be some minor differences between denominations the core message is consistent. That's how I feel about that. Hope that was helpful.

Peace and Love

 

 

If "all scripture is God breathed" as Paul wrote, what gives you the right to judge what is correct to follow?

Which Jesus do you follow? The one in the Gospels or Paul's construct (the concept that he called the "anointed deliverer" aka Jesus Christ? I honestly can't see the connection between that concept and the Jesus of Nazareth in the gospels. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly

I do not judge what is right to follow...as I mentioned before I am not just picking what to follow and what not to follow. I've reasonably answered this twice but mayb eI'm not being clear enough. There are elements in the Bible that are a part of the narrative, parts that tell us about characters and there are parts that are clearly instructions. Why would I turn something that is a part of the narrative into an instruction if the Bible doesn't present it as such? That makes no sense. You presented a Psalm and words of a prophet...both of which were directed toward God...both were right in their presentation of humanity and the ways that we interact with God and acknowledging God as their Creator...I accept them both as they are not contradictory and they both tell us things about humanity and how we relate to God. Do you see the reasoning here? It's not picking and choosing...You are asking me to read the Bible without context which makes no sense.

I follow Jesus...the Gospels and Paul present one Jesus and that is the one I follow. Jesus as 'annointed deliverer' as you've mentioned is the same Jesus of the Gospels. For example when you get a chance read through the Gospel of John.

Peace and Love


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Matt Churchman wrote:I do

Matt Churchman wrote:

I do not judge what is right to follow...as I mentioned before I am not just picking what to follow and what not to follow. I've reasonably answered this twice but mayb eI'm not being clear enough. There are elements in the Bible that are a part of the narrative, parts that tell us about characters and there are parts that are clearly instructions. Why would I turn something that is a part of the narrative into an instruction if the Bible doesn't present it as such? That makes no sense. You presented a Psalm and words of a prophet...both of which were directed toward God...both were right in their presentation of humanity and the ways that we interact with God and acknowledging God as their Creator...I accept them both as they are not contradictory and they both tell us things about humanity and how we relate to God. Do you see the reasoning here? It's not picking and choosing...You are asking me to read the Bible without context which makes no sense.

I follow Jesus...the Gospels and Paul present one Jesus and that is the one I follow. Jesus as 'annointed deliverer' as you've mentioned is the same Jesus of the Gospels. For example when you get a chance read through the Gospel of John.

Peace and Love

Been there done that. How do you think I became an agnostic atheist? I read the Bible and had qestions that it and my pastors couldn't answer.

Oh, and you do judge what is right to follow - that's how interpretation works. You judge the Psalmist and Isaiah as just writing their words so they hold no meaning for you. 

I'll give you that the gospels and Paul present one Jesus. The word you left out is 'each'. The Jesus of the Gospels was written to bring people to God. The one Paul described was written as a substitute for God.

Now, if you're a trinitarian (fancy Christian term for a polytheist with three gods), you probably won't see this.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Matt Churchman
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jcgadfly

Yeah I did the whole atheist thing too. "Been there done that". hehe. Anyways my man, I think you might be under estimating me. First of all, I said that both the Psalmist and Isaish's words DO have meaning for me. I never said they didn't...what I said was (because you use the word follow) that I don't follow them becausae they are not instructions from God. So...again  no I don't just pick and choose randomly what suits me.

Well in the Gospels Jesus is also equated with God on a number of occasions. AGAIN, the Gospel of JOhn is perhaps the Gospel with the most emphasis on this. Read it again.

I don't like the word trinitarian but I basically beleive the doctrine I suppose...I mean come on...we are talking about the metaphysics of God...the whole Trinity thing confuses everyone if they're honest but I do kind of get it. The Bible does not use the word trinity once...that is a term that religious folk created to try and explain something metaphysical and give it a word. That's all. I could say more...

Also, just asking your pastors is probably not going to clear up every question you have about God. You'll always have questions...it would arrogant to suppose that we might figure out everything about god - which is partly why you call yourself AGNOSTIC-atheist. Questions are good...keep asking them...if they are quesitons that MUSt be answered in order for you to believe then ask you pastor but also take time to re-read the Bible (perhaps one with study notes), pikc up some books on these issues, ask some atheists too and check out some of their books. YOu know?

Peace and Love