"You must worship something"

MattShizzle
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"You must worship something"

This is an irrational precept I hear from theists a lot. When you tell them you're an atheist, they say there has to be something you worship, even if you don't know it - ie your car, money, sex, yourself, etc. This is ludicrous - maybe you care about these things but worship is a bit strong of a word! Can you picture someone bowing down and worshipping their car? Laughing out loud
I don't worship anything. :roll:

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Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Well, it depends entirely what kind of car we're talking about here Eye-wink

Saleen S7 Twin Turbo

Who's your $580,000 750 horse power 250mph god now?

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MattShizzle
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"You must worship something"

That could probably kick the Christian God's ass big time. I mean if iron chariots are too much for him ...... Laughing out loud

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Gravity the asshat
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"You must worship something"

Not worship. Obey. One must obey something.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

I obey the car as well.


Nick
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"You must worship something"

Yes... obey the car...

Wait, what's that, Saleen S7 Twin Turbo? You... you want me to kill all the infidels? Well, I don't know... What? You's run me over for eternity if I don't? Well... Okay.

:smt070

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Jolmer
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"You must worship something"

I like the generalization you make in saying that Theists say you must worship somthing. Now I have no idea whether God exists but I find it very hilarious that you are willing to disregard somthing that has played a fundemental role in so many peoples live throughout human history. That is the existance of a God. Now a real Theist woulndt say that you "must worship somthing" because in the Muslim religion non-believers are forgiven in the eyes of Allah, in Christianity "Good-Non Believers" are not sent to be punished but are put in Limbo. So why would a real Theist care if you believed or not? And remember, I am no Theist, I am no Atheist, Im just angry to see such a one-sided lean to Atheism in this forum.

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Jolmer wrote:
I like the generalization you make in saying that Theists say you must worship somthing. Now I have no idea whether God exists but I find it very hilarious that you are willing to disregard somthing that has played a fundemental role in so many peoples live throughout human history.

Really? A flat earth and the belief that demons cause disease played a fundamental role in so many peoples lives throughout human history as well.

Quote:
That is the existance of a God. Now a real Theist woulndt say that you "must worship somthing" because in the Muslim religion non-believers are forgiven in the eyes of Allah,

No, Infidels are to be put to death and burn. They are not to be forgiven.

Quote:
.. in Christianity "Good-Non Believers" are not sent to be punished but are put in Limbo.

No, In Christ's own words they are sent to hell.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Quote:
would a real Theist care if you believed or not? And remember, I am no Theist, I am no Atheist, Im just angry to see such a one-sided lean to Atheism in this forum.

They care because they wish to controll and are afraid. Little more.

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Jolmer
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"You must worship something"

"Really? A flat earth and the belief that demons cause disease played a fundamental role in so many peoples lives throughout human history as well."

I am not saying that Relgion is true. I am saying that something so big to the human race shouldnt be tossed aside so easily. Im sure people believed that the earth was flat sure but even that would have needed to be carefully analized to make sure it wasnt wrong. I wouldnt like to go into a room full of hostile armed men with a blindfold.

"No, Infidels are to be put to death and burn. They are not to be forgiven."

Infidels are and I quote: An infidel (literally, "one without faith"Eye-wink is one who doubts or rejects central tenets of a religion, especially those regarding its deities. More generally, an infidel is one who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle. Now it depends on the extremety of the Infidel but I sat in on a public forum with a religious Muslim man that says only extremeists burn people and many can be forgiven.

"No, In Christ's own words they are sent to hell."

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Limbo is the first layer of Hell.

"They care because they wish to controll and are afraid. Little more."

A generalization of about 7/8 of the world without anything to back it up. My friend Elisha Moretz is one of the most devout people I have ever met. He is also one of the nicests. He doesnt fear anything because He believes everything has a purpose and that he is in the hands of God. He is not afriad nor does he force his religion on anybody. You will never see a Priest pushing his religion down your throat unless you are refering to the crazy idiots that appear on CNN who I dont even take seriously.

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Jolmer wrote:
"Really? A flat earth and the belief that demons cause disease played a fundamental role in so many peoples lives throughout human history as well."

I am not saying that Relgion is true. I am saying that something so big to the human race shouldnt be tossed aside so easily.

Why not? If it is demonstrably wrong, why not?

Quote:
Im sure people believed that the earth was flat sure but even that would have needed to be carefully analized to make sure it wasnt wrong. I wouldnt like to go into a room full of hostile armed men with a blindfold.

Huh? The God issue has been debated for what, 5,000 years? I think at this point we can take the fact that there is no compelling evidence as gospel. The issue has been analyzed to death, probably more than any issue ever presented to mankind.

Quote:
"No, Infidels are to be put to death and burn. They are not to be forgiven."

Infidels are and I quote: An infidel (literally, "one without faith"Eye-wink is one who doubts or rejects central tenets of a religion, especially those regarding its deities. More generally, an infidel is one who doubts or rejects a particular doctrine, system, or principle. Now it depends on the extremety of the Infidel but I sat in on a public forum with a religious Muslim man that says only extremeists burn people and many can be forgiven.

That particular Muslim man has not read his Quoran then, and will most likely burn as well:

"God's curse be upon the infidels! (2:89).

"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).

I can get much more explicit if need be.

Quote:
"No, in Christ's own words they are sent to hell."

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Limbo is the first layer of Hell.

No, sorry, only if you're a Jew and go by the original version of the Old Testament.

Quote:
"They care because they wish to controll and are afraid. Little more."

A generalization of about 7/8 of the world without anything to back it up.

I think we have plenty of things to back it up and causes to be concerned.

Quote:
My friend Elisha Moretz is one of the most devout people I have ever met. He is also one of the nicests. He doesnt fear anything because He believes everything has a purpose and that he is in the hands of God. He is not afriad nor does he force his religion on anybody. You will never see a Priest pushing his religion down your throat unless you are refering to the crazy idiots that appear on CNN who I dont even take seriously.

I know good Christians as well. My family is Catholic. I'm still friends with my former priest.

That does not mean I don't see the religion for the danger that it is.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Jolmer
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"You must worship something"

Hm. Anyway. Obviously for someone who dislikes religion so much you know alot. I would like to know why you think Religion is a danger. The only danger I see are radical muslims, and cults that take serious measures against the society they hate. Im sorry that ive never been to church in my life and that I got some things wrong.

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Jolmer wrote:
Hm. Anyway. Obviously for someone who dislikes religion so much you know alot. I would like to know why you think Religion is a danger.

Are you kidding me?

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The only danger I see are radical muslims, and cults that take serious measures against the society they hate. Im sorry that ive never been to church in my life and that I got some things wrong.

Then you simply are not paying attention. Who is attempting to curtail reproductive rights in this country? Who is pushing for a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage? Who is curtailing stem cell research? Who is raping our environment? Who is thumbing their nose at the Constitution?

Do I honestly need to go on?

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Jolmer
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"You must worship something"

Your anti-government too? I guess society cant be free if everyone disagrees like this. I DONT AGREE WITH BANNING GAY MARRAGE, I DONT AGREE WITH BANNING STEM-CELL RESEARCH! And all of thos pictures were of cults cult leaders and radicals.... as I said. Now I would like to know your plan of action O' "Knower of all that is right and dandy". Can you possibly believe that you could do shit to solve this and that ranting at me, somebody who just wants to know and understand all sides of somthingto form the better opinion would do jack shit? I am open to all things. I consider things very hardly before disregarding them... Its just hard to maintain with so many people to one side or the other when Im here by myself.

And just because you agree with somthing doesnt make it the know all be all answer to humanities problems. Thats what Hitler though and look how that turned out.

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Jolmer wrote:
Your anti-government too?

Huh?

Quote:
I guess society cant be free if everyone disagrees like this. I DONT AGREE WITH BANNING GAY MARRAGE, I DONT AGREE WITH BANNING STEM-CELL RESEARCH! And all of thos pictures were of cults cult leaders and radicals....

Wrong. I could have easily posted pictures of Eric Rudolf the Christian abortion clinic bomber, or Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of South American dictators, or the Phelps clan persecuting queers and soldiers, or Christian missionaries denying aid to tsunami victims because of their faith, or the countless MILLIONS that no doubt died due to the Vaticans reproductive policies, and even if you deny all of that, you cannot deny that the Religious Right is fucking us left and right.

Quote:
as I said. Now I would like to know your plan of action O' "Knower of all that is right and dandy". Can you possibly believe that you could do shit to solve this and that ranting at me, somebody who just wants to know and understand all sides of somthingto form the better opinion would do jack shit? I am open to all things. I consider things very hardly before disregarding them... Its just hard to maintain with so many people to one side or the other when Im here by myself.

I understand my reach. I do the BEST I can with what I have. I put on a radio show, I'm active in several forums, I'm active in public as well. What are you doing?

Quote:
And just because you agree with somthing doesnt make it the know all be all answer to humanities problems. Thats what Hitler though and look how that turned out.

WooHoo, Godwin call! Are you seriously comparing me to Hitler? Give me a break.

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Jolmer
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"You must worship something"

Oh trust me I know that religion causes death. My parents are over in Iraq fighting the people causing the danger because of their religion. I do agree Religion can be a danger but no to everybody and I was trying to give that side of the spectrum: The guy who goes to church on sunday and reads his bible/Kuran without the raising of a rifle a chance here. Since they like their religion and shouldnt be hindered in their worship. Religion is dangerous to the weak minded who will blindly follow without question.

As a 16 year old who has to finish high-school I cant do jack shit at the moment. I support my father who fights the radicals. What else can I do?

Your views are better than Hitlers but the way your being hostile to me and throwing your beliefs in my face is similar. You wouldnt kill people to get those views acrossed. Thats why you have as you say a radio-show which I find awesome.

I asked if you were anti-government since they are the ones causing the problems you listed not Religious people.

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Jolmer wrote:
Oh trust me I know that religion causes death. My parents are over in Iraq fighting the people causing the danger because of their religion. I do agree Religion can be a danger but no to everybody and I was trying to give that side of the spectrum: The guy who goes to church on sunday and reads his bible/Kuran without the raising of a rifle a chance here. Since they like their religion and shouldnt be hindered in their worship. Religion is dangerous to the weak minded who will blindly follow without question.

In principle I want to agree with this, I really do, and at one time I did agree with it.

If you get the chance, check out Sam Harris's "End of Faith". It makes a very persuasive argument that moderate religious people only serve to coddle and insulate the extremists that actually do these nutty things.

I now see moderate religious people as little more than enablers for the fundamentalists and extremists.

Quote:
As a 16 year old who has to finish high-school I cant do jack shit at the moment. I support my father who fights the radicals. What else can I do?

Get involved with freethought organizations.

Quote:
Your views are better than Hitlers but the way your being hostile to me and throwing your beliefs in my face is similar. You wouldnt kill people to get those views acrossed. Thats why you have as you say a radio-show which I find awesome.

I'm sorry if you feel I was being hostile. I mean you no ill will. I'm simply passionate about these things and certain points and arguments tend to set me off on a rant. You hit on a few of them.

Quote:
I asked if you were anti-government since they are the ones causing the problems you listed not Religious people.

I listed both, actually. I do think you have to be pretty thick to not notice the religious agenda of the current adminstration though. If you must know my political stance, I'm a right wing libertarian. I'm what Rebuplicans were about 15 years ago.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Jolmer
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"You must worship something"

Im glad that we are on the same page about somthing. I would also consider myself some type of republican. I dont like whats going on now but what went on with Reagan was golden as well as Bush Senior. Father unlike son I suppose. You would have to even admit that all the people in this administration do not have an underlying religious agenda.

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Jolmer wrote:
Im glad that we are on the same page about somthing. I would also consider myself some type of republican. I dont like whats going on now but what went on with Reagan was golden as well as Bush Senior. Father unlike son I suppose. You would have to even admit that all the people in this administration do not have an underlying religious agenda.

Ehh, well, I want to hedge my bets a bit with this one.

I think Reagan was the right guy at the right time. IMO, he's the guy that ended the Cold War by being tough yet honest with Gorby. At the same time I think he made some horrible decision when it came to public health, considering HIV was just making the scene then. He was the last Republican pres I could really support.

The two Bushses have more strikes than balls against them, IMO. Right now I think the country is reeling and has no clear or definitive plan or policy. We're making it up as we go along and trampling civil rights in the progress.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Jolmer
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"You must worship something"

We sure are. The things this country was founded on which I agree with more than anything else in the whole world are being dissipated by different "versions" of what they mean. Alot of women dont even know what suffrage is. I saw video of a man who got 100 women to sign a petition to "End Womens Suffrage". Our youth is being corrupted by things such as Hollywood and wrong impressions from Video Games and Movies and Sex and Drugs and all of these things and being part of this collapsing youth I have to say I am appaulled. We need a president who will fight for the people and not for himself. He will do what we NEED not what he WANTS. And that is why I dont like Democrats since they do what they WANT not what we NEED. Sorry for this rant. Its my last for the night. I will wait for your response to this and then I need to go to bed. Im going to be dead tired today...

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

Eh, at this point I've got serious issues with both parties. The GOP simply seems to go the conservative Christian right line. The Dems simply seem completely clueless. Seriously, Kerry was the BEST they could put up against Bush in the last election? :smt102

I'll most likely be voting 3rd party again in the next election.

My dream would be a Joe Biden and John McCaine mixed ticket. Theses guys both have huge balls, will argue yet respect one another, and actually get shit done.

That withstanding, I'll be "throwing my vote away" again.

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jester700
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"You must worship something"

Yellow, I agree with you. I want to vote independent as well (I'm registered as such). The problem is, IMO the people who will vote independent are the people who, if they HAD to "choose the lesser of 2 evils" would go democrat. This opens up the liklihood that due to a divided vote, yet another 4 years will go to the right wing christians and their latest neocon puppet. This is why, for the next round anyway, I'm voting straight democrat. And I HATE that idea. But IMO baby steps are needed - the power hold of the neocons must be broken first.


Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

I understand what you're saying, I simply disagree. You've got to vote for who you most support, otherwise things will never change. A two party system is only one party away from totalitarianism, and if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, things just keep getting more evil.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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"You must worship something"

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
Well, it depends entirely what kind of car we're talking about here Eye-wink

Saleen S7 Twin Turbo

Who's your $580,000 750 horse power 250mph god now?

oh those? I got two.

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"You must worship something"

Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
I understand what you're saying, I simply disagree. You've got to vote for who you most support, otherwise things will never change. A two party system is only one party away from totalitarianism, and if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, things just keep getting more evil.

It's a double edged sword. I've got theories on how to actually impact change, but our empire isn't big enough yet. :twisted:

See. I agree with both sides.

"if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, things just keep getting more evil."
- AGREED

"You've got to vote for who you most support, otherwise things will never change."
- AGREED

"This is why, for the next round anyway, I'm voting straight democrat. And I HATE that idea. But IMO baby steps are needed - the power hold of the neocons must be broken first."
- AGREED, I actually said that LAST TIME

Basically I agree that I am helping things become "more evil." I plan to make up for that though when we can really make a difference.

Here is an EXTREMELY brief summation of what needs to be done:

1. Find the right Presidential candidate that will actually uphold the Constitution, be incorruptible, and also rational.

2. Convince the 50% of America that is eligible to vote but doesn't vote, to vote. A good portion of non-voters don't vote because the system is broken and they don't want to participate. (about 100 million people)

3. Tell all those who have been voting for the lesser of two evils (probably another 20% of America) that this is the year we can actually get a "good candidate" elected. (about 25 million people)

4. Convince some democrats and republicans to embrace our candidate, although we wouldn't need them. (about a million people)

5. Vote, and win in a huge landslide. (Bush and Kerry got 60 million votes, I just showed you 126 million votes)

If we could get all the non-voters, libertarians, greens, and some swing voters on board, you'd win without a single registered democrat or republican needed. The problem is actually making it happen, it's possible, it's possible... must expand empire. :twisted:

So yeah, I'm 1/120 millionth of a percent the cause that we have gotten more evil in the last 8 years, I can admit that. At the same time I'd like to see another group be able to admit to something.... anyone ESPECIALLY red staters who voted independent (and could've stomached Kerry) helped elect the worst president our country has ever known.

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Yellow_Number_Five
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"You must worship something"

LeftofLarry wrote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
Well, it depends entirely what kind of car we're talking about here Eye-wink

Saleen S7 Twin Turbo

Who's your $580,000 750 horse power 250mph god now?

oh those? I got two.

Ah, polytheism Laughing out loud

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"You must worship something"

Sapient wrote:
Yellow_Number_Five wrote:
I understand what you're saying, I simply disagree. You've got to vote for who you most support, otherwise things will never change. A two party system is only one party away from totalitarianism, and if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, things just keep getting more evil.

It's a double edged sword. I've got theories on how to actually impact change, but our empire isn't big enough yet. :twisted:

See. I agree with both sides.

"if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, things just keep getting more evil."
- AGREED

"You've got to vote for who you most support, otherwise things will never change."
- AGREED

"This is why, for the next round anyway, I'm voting straight democrat. And I HATE that idea. But IMO baby steps are needed - the power hold of the neocons must be broken first."
- AGREED, I actually said that LAST TIME

Basically I agree that I am helping things become "more evil." I plan to make up for that though when we can really make a difference.

Here is an EXTREMELY brief summation of what needs to be done:

1. Find the right Presidential candidate that will actually uphold the Constitution, be incorruptible, and also rational.

2. Convince the 50% of America that is eligible to vote but doesn't vote, to vote. A good portion of non-voters don't vote because the system is broken and they don't want to participate. (about 100 million people)

3. Tell all those who have been voting for the lesser of two evils (probably another 20% of America) that this is the year we can actually get a "good candidate" elected. (about 25 million people)

4. Convince some democrats and republicans to embrace our candidate, although we wouldn't need them. (about a million people)

5. Vote, and win in a huge landslide. (Bush and Kerry got 60 million votes, I just showed you 126 million votes)

If we could get all the non-voters, libertarians, greens, and some swing voters on board, you'd win without a single registered democrat or republican needed. The problem is actually making it happen, it's possible, it's possible... must expand empire. :twisted:

So yeah, I'm 1/120 millionth of a percent the cause that we have gotten more evil in the last 8 years, I can admit that. At the same time I'd like to see another group be able to admit to something.... anyone ESPECIALLY red staters who voted independent (and could've stomached Kerry) helped elect the worst president our country has ever known.

Let's not forget the elephant in the room here. MONEY. WITHOUT IT ALL THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE. I'M AFRAID. Neocons on both side of the aisle are well funded by lobby groups and corporate power. It is impossible to compete. The one person who remotely came close to being a valid 3rd party candidate was Ross Perot, a BILLIONAIRE who personally funded most of his campaign. The problem is, the two parties are so entrenched that it is almost impossible to bring in a third alternative. The elitists in power, are the ones who make sure they remain in power, they use religion as a mass controlling mechanism, while using corporate power to gain money and we all know money is power. If you look at the way BOTH parties are run, it is much like fascism under the guise of democracy. Corporations own our politicians. Most politicians are millionnaires, most came from corporate interests...and now they are running it. They run the show and give you the impression you are having a choice, a choice of what? Dumb and Dumberererer (as in W's case)? A third viable alternative will only come if there is a mass awakening or if it becomes well funded, and I don't see either of that happening any time soon. I'm an ideological extremist, but realistically center because I know...realism is much more practical than idiology.

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jester700
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"You must worship something"

Has true change along these lines EVER happened? ANYWHERE? In my limited knowledge of history, things basically got progressively worse - the rich got richer as their power base consolidated, the poor got poorer as a result, and change happened when power lay in the hands of TOO few, resulting in the violent overthow of those few. This is, of course, only referring to internal change - many countries were taken over by outside forces, which is why I fear Canada. Eye-wink

It's also possible that a drastic change in a political environment (say, a world war) can force a change in public viewpoint and thus political change. But how many world wars and major political faux pas have we endured thus far without shedding the two party albatross?

I suspect it'll be a LONG while before real change happens. Given our political system, a fairly large number of people are benefactors and thus wield power. And there are no obvious castes to keep people down by definition, thus the HOPE of "something better" remains for most - even if the end result of "success" isn't as good or likely as it could be.

So revolution will be a long time in coming, leaving the intelligent, rational response of leaving our existing parties behind as the mechanism for change. I'm sorry, but in this day of "faux news" and SURVIVOR, I'm not holding my breath.


Jolmer
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I think someone who can pull our country together and make an attempt at settling things down would seem to work. He would need to bring people together and attempt to push what most people want. Most people want us out of Iraq so lets finish that and get out. Anyone who could do that I would vote for. I think Rudy Giuliani wouldnt be bad for it. In my opinion of course. He is a Republican but far from right wing, and he did an amazing job pulling New York together after September 11th.

I am Republican. But I am not what you think that is.


jester700
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Keep one thing in mind - the skills needed to be an efficient leader in a time of crisis when the people are of one mind are different than those needed to bring people of widely differing views together without a shared external threat or enemy. It's a human trait to set aside differences and "band together" in times of great need, but also to disagree over trifles when no such need exists.

This isn't to say Rudy would NOT do a good job; only that the good job he did may not be indicative of the one he WOULD do.


LeftofLarry
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"You must worship something"

jester700 wrote:
Keep one thing in mind - the skills needed to be an efficient leader in a time of crisis when the people are of one mind are different than those needed to bring people of widely differing views together without a shared external threat or enemy. It's a human trait to set aside differences and "band together" in times of great need, but also to disagree over trifles when no such need exists.

This isn't to say Rudy would NOT do a good job; only that the good job he did may not be indicative of the one he WOULD do.

I agree here. I mean look at how many people stood behind the false patriotism Bush espoused after 9-11, surely he has shown to be anything but a good leader. His poll numbers were in the shitter pre 9-11, and then poof....80% approval for years straigh post...until now, they're in the shitter again.

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