Curing homosexuality

MattShizzle
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Curing homosexuality

This is an extremely irrational precept - it not only assumes homosexuality is a disease or mental illness (the AMA, APA and APS all disagree) but that prayer can somehow cure disease or mental illness. Does anyone who isn't a Christian fanatic doubt for a minute that the people who are "cured" are anything other than faking it and hurting because they still fall for Christian mythology and are torn between their fear of hell and who they really are?

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Did you see the episode of

Did you see the episode of South Park dealing with this very issue?


MattShizzle
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Been about 2 or 3 years

Been about 2 or 3 years since I watched South Park.


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MattShizzle wrote: This is

MattShizzle wrote:
This is an extremely irrational precept - it not only assumes homosexuality is a disease or mental illness (the AMA, APA and APS all disagree) but that prayer can somehow cure disease or mental illness. Does anyone who isn't a Christian fanatic doubt for a minute that the people who are "cured" are anything other than faking it and hurting because they still fall for Christian mythology and are torn between their fear of hell and who they really are?

imho, someone can be changed from being homosexual, but they can't be cured.  The reason I believe this is because I see homosexuality as nothing more than a matter of taste.  Some people like red meat, others prefer white.  Some people prefer the colour red, others prefer blue.  Some people prefer modern art, others prefer older.

The only difference is that other areas where differing tastes apply are attached to weaker emotions.  At most the other types of taste will make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but taste for people is attached to love, a much MUCH stronger emotion. 

Many people say their sexuality isn't a choice, it's just who they love, they can't help it.  For many it also forms at certain ages, for some they always felt that way.  Think about it like food types that you once didn't like and now do like, or food that you've always liked.  Can you describe it in the same way? 

Just as you can change someone's tastes in books, poetry, art etc, you can change it in sexuality.  But it's nothing more than that.  It certainly isn't curing. 

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iluvc2h5oh
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Just to be rational...

I think sometimes it this should be the rational, as long as it is politically correct to a liberal stance, squad.

 

Anyway.  Homosexuality would be selected against by nature for 2 reasons.

1.  No offspring are created

2.  Energy is wasted in the act with no benefit.

 

That being said if falls into the catagory of a disorder (I dont know if that is the official title but Im using it anyway for sake of arguing my stance).  It is not the normal selected for triat.

 

There are many disorders people dont care about..Homosexuality is one people care about due to religous doctrine more than anything else.

 

 So....my stance, Homosexuality isnt "the norm" but who cares, if you are happy with it enjoy yourself.

Can it be cured? Who konws? Is homosexuality Genetic? is it learned? are some forms Genetics and some forms learned?  I dont know.

"When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the Land and the Missionaries had the Bible, They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the Land and we had the Bible." - Jomo Kenyatta


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iluvc2h5oh wrote: Anyway.

iluvc2h5oh wrote:
Anyway. Homosexuality would be selected against by nature for 2 reasons.

1. No offspring are created

2. Energy is wasted in the act with no benefit.

The first time I saw something on the existance of homosexuality in nature it was in penguins no less, and they stated that although homosexuality existed almost constantly to some degree, the amount of it went up significantly as the number of penguins became overpopulated.

Just take one quick look around at our planet and the population burst we're going through.   If nature is anything to go by, the amount of homosexuality we see is sure to increase.  That being said, you must remember that it still existed even when there isn't an overpopulation problem in nature.

 

iluvc2h5oh wrote:
So....my stance, Homosexuality isnt "the norm" but who cares, if you are happy with it enjoy yourself.

Well said.

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MattShizzle wrote: This is

MattShizzle wrote:
This is an extremely irrational precept - it not only assumes homosexuality is a disease or mental illness (the AMA, APA and APS all disagree) but that prayer can somehow cure disease or mental illness. Does anyone who isn't a Christian fanatic doubt for a minute that the people who are "cured" are anything other than faking it and hurting because they still fall for Christian mythology and are torn between their fear of hell and who they really are?

 

Matt:

I understand your frustration towards theists, esp. xians. It's REALLY tough understanding them from the outside if you've never been there. I grew up in XTREME fundyism, so i get it. People can easily delude themselves into thinking, well, pretty much anything out there, right? This is no different. Pray for blah blah and hope for the best. Psychologically, it can be VERY powerful, but that's just it. Psyche--in the head. If you feel weak at some point, then you can "fall away" or whatever.

 Anyway on the topic, my 2 c's:

Sexuality is a continuum. Rarely are individuals exclusively at one end or the other. If one can HONESTLY say they have NEVER EVER felt an attraction for the same sex, one is either:

A) at the polar opposite of the spectrum, or

B) completely and possibly pathologically not in touch with oneself.

1. I'm almost exclusively attracted to the opposite sex, but do on an ongoing basis feel attraction to certain males here & there. Few & far b/w, but it's there. As a young teen, I experimented. Stats show most people do.

2. Granted, there are many individuals out there who have been hurt and/or angry who engage in self-defeating behavior of ALL SORTS. Throwing a book at them and saying: "God sez no!" doesn't help. Walking people thru pain and being a compassionate person to ALL people at all times is key.

There's a helluva a lot of complex issues underlying our humanity and nature/nurture is a big factor in all of it.

EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!


iluvc2h5oh
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What are you talking about?

Do you mean to look at the same sex sexually?

Or look at the same sex romantically?

 

Which comes 1st for a homosexual? or is it different based on the individual?  Do they always go hand in hand?  Can you be sexually attracted to men but romantically attracted to women?  (maybe this is how so many men get married and get caught having gay sex)  Never really thought about these things before.

"When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the Land and the Missionaries had the Bible, They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the Land and we had the Bible." - Jomo Kenyatta


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MattShizzle wrote: This is

MattShizzle wrote:
This is an extremely irrational precept - it not only assumes homosexuality is a disease or mental illness (the AMA, APA and APS all disagree) but that prayer can somehow cure disease or mental illness. Does anyone who isn't a Christian fanatic doubt for a minute that the people who are "cured" are anything other than faking it and hurting because they still fall for Christian mythology and are torn between their fear of hell and who they really are?

It simply doesn't happen. Period. I think this is a prime example. The founders of Exodus Ministries themselves agree!

This site accounts several "ex-gay" failures. This is just an excerpt.

"Perhaps the most famous "former ex-gays" are Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who were instrumental in establishing Exodus International in 1976 (6).

Both Bussee and Cooper, troubled by their homosexual feelings, became fervent Christians in 1971 while still in their late teens. They met and became friends while working for a counseling and referral line at the Melodyland Christian Center in Anaheim.

Bussee, knowing what a struggle he'd had in dealing with his own homosexual feelings, grew worried when he heard operators of the center's hotline tell gay and lesbian callers that they were "possessed by demons." Requesting specific training for such calls, he learned that none existed. "I told them I was a Christian homosexual," Bussee says. They replied, "There's no such thing. If you trust God, all your homosexual desires will be replaced by heterosexual ones."

Accepting this claim at face value, Bussee and Cooper soon became Melodyland's specialists in the conversion of homosexuals. In 1976, they helped found Exodus International.

Ironically, however, the more they worked together, the more they found themselves falling in love. Their breaking point came simultaneously in the late 70s on a road trip, when they found themselves booked by chance into a hotel room with only one bed. They took this accident as a sign from God and eventually left Exodus in 1979. In 1982, they were married (7). Cooper died of AIDS nine years later.

"The desires never go away," says Bussee, "the confrontations begin and the guilt gets worse and worse." Bussee recalls that some people who went through the Exodus program had breakdowns or committed suicide. "One man slashed his genitals with a razor and poured Drano on his wounds." Another man impulsively underwent an incomplete sex-change operation because he believed his sexual desires might receive divine approval were he biologically a woman (Cool.

"After dealing with hundreds of people," Bussee concludes, he and his lover hadn't "met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."

"If you got them away from the Christian limelight," he concludes, "and asked them, 'Honestly now, are you saying that you are no longer homosexual and you are now heterosexually oriented?'... not one person said, 'Yes, I am actually now heterosexual."

Flemming Rose: “When [christians] say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission….”


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iluvc2h5oh wrote: I think

iluvc2h5oh wrote:

I think sometimes it this should be the rational, as long as it is politically correct to a liberal stance, squad.

Anyway.  Homosexuality would be selected against by nature for 2 reasons.

1.  No offspring are created

2.  Energy is wasted in the act with no benefit.

That being said if falls into the catagory of a disorder (I dont know if that is the official title but Im using it anyway for sake of arguing my stance).  It is not the normal selected for triat.

There are many disorders people dont care about..Homosexuality is one people care about due to religous doctrine more than anything else.

 So....my stance, Homosexuality isnt "the norm" but who cares, if you are happy with it enjoy yourself.

Can it be cured? Who konws? Is homosexuality Genetic? is it learned? are some forms Genetics and some forms learned?  I dont know.

Edward Owen Wilson (Harvard Professor) wrote a book titled "On Human Nature", which he won the second of his (2) Pulitzer prizes for.  He addresses the evolutionary question in regards to homosexuality.  He acknowledges that homosexual behavior occurs in thousands of species and believes homosexuality appears to have an evolutionary purpose. Its purpose likely is a variation of Kin Selection, which is fairly common among animals and insects.

Kin selection in this instance would be as follows:  A gay family member would act as both a helpmate and insurance policy meaning that if for any reason a sibling or parent should become sick or die, the gay family member (unemcumbered w/ children of their own) would step in to help or fill the role of the sick or deceased thereby increasing the strength of the family.  This would then also increase the odds of the family genes passing on to the next generation, thereby fulfilling an evolutionary purpose.

It's as good of an example of an evolutionary purpose as I've heard and holds a bit of irony.  Rather than a hindrance to "family values", perhaps it should be upheld as something that strengthens the family.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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AmericanIdle

AmericanIdle wrote:
iluvc2h5oh wrote:

I think sometimes it this should be the rational, as long as it is politically correct to a liberal stance, squad.

Anyway.  Homosexuality would be selected against by nature for 2 reasons.

1.  No offspring are created

2.  Energy is wasted in the act with no benefit.

That being said if falls into the catagory of a disorder (I dont know if that is the official title but Im using it anyway for sake of arguing my stance).  It is not the normal selected for triat.

There are many disorders people dont care about..Homosexuality is one people care about due to religous doctrine more than anything else.

 So....my stance, Homosexuality isnt "the norm" but who cares, if you are happy with it enjoy yourself.

Can it be cured? Who konws? Is homosexuality Genetic? is it learned? are some forms Genetics and some forms learned?  I dont know.

Edward Owen Wilson (Harvard Professor) wrote a book titled "On Human Nature", which he won the second of his (2) Pulitzer prizes for.  He addresses the evolutionary question in regards to homosexuality.  He acknowledges that homosexual behavior occurs in thousands of species and believes homosexuality appears to have an evolutionary purpose. Its purpose likely is a variation of Kin Selection, which is fairly common among animals and insects.

Kin selection in this instance would be as follows:  A gay family member would act as both a helpmate and insurance policy meaning that if for any reason a sibling or parent should become sick or die, the gay family member (unemcumbered w/ children of their own) would step in to help or fill the role of the sick or deceased thereby increasing the strength of the family.  This would then also increase the odds of the family genes passing on to the next generation, thereby fulfilling an evolutionary purpose.

It's as good of an example of an evolutionary purpose as I've heard and holds a bit of irony.  Rather than a hindrance to "family values", perhaps it should be upheld as something that strengthens the family.

 

I never heard that theory but it makes sense at face value.

 Here is what I am thinking though...that would mean that homosexuality is genetic.  If it is, only those with the Honosexual gene would pass it on. (Im assuming it would be recessive). If it was it would be very rare to find 2 people to mate and have gay kids.  And there would be entire families of gay kids on occasion, I never seen that without some enviomental reason.

And where would the gay person find other gay people? wouldnt it just be more logical to just turn the sex drive off completely than to reverse it?

 

I would think homosexuality as far as sex goes would just be a byproduct of a high sex drive...like masterbation...donest help you procreate and it wastes energy.

 

Now homosexual love is a whole other can of worms.

"When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the Land and the Missionaries had the Bible, They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the Land and we had the Bible." - Jomo Kenyatta


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iluvc2h5oh

iluvc2h5oh wrote:
AmericanIdle wrote:
iluvc2h5oh wrote:

I think sometimes it this should be the rational, as long as it is politically correct to a liberal stance, squad.

Anyway.  Homosexuality would be selected against by nature for 2 reasons.

1.  No offspring are created

2.  Energy is wasted in the act with no benefit.

That being said if falls into the catagory of a disorder (I dont know if that is the official title but Im using it anyway for sake of arguing my stance).  It is not the normal selected for triat.

There are many disorders people dont care about..Homosexuality is one people care about due to religous doctrine more than anything else.

 So....my stance, Homosexuality isnt "the norm" but who cares, if you are happy with it enjoy yourself.

Can it be cured? Who konws? Is homosexuality Genetic? is it learned? are some forms Genetics and some forms learned?  I dont know.

Edward Owen Wilson (Harvard Professor) wrote a book titled "On Human Nature", which he won the second of his (2) Pulitzer prizes for.  He addresses the evolutionary question in regards to homosexuality.  He acknowledges that homosexual behavior occurs in thousands of species and believes homosexuality appears to have an evolutionary purpose. Its purpose likely is a variation of Kin Selection, which is fairly common among animals and insects.

Kin selection in this instance would be as follows:  A gay family member would act as both a helpmate and insurance policy meaning that if for any reason a sibling or parent should become sick or die, the gay family member (unemcumbered w/ children of their own) would step in to help or fill the role of the sick or deceased thereby increasing the strength of the family.  This would then also increase the odds of the family genes passing on to the next generation, thereby fulfilling an evolutionary purpose.

It's as good of an example of an evolutionary purpose as I've heard and holds a bit of irony.  Rather than a hindrance to "family values", perhaps it should be upheld as something that strengthens the family.

I never heard that theory but it makes sense at face value.

 Here is what I am thinking though...that would mean that homosexuality is genetic.  If it is, only those with the Honosexual gene would pass it on. (Im assuming it would be recessive). If it was it would be very rare to find 2 people to mate and have gay kids.  And there would be entire families of gay kids on occasion, I never seen that without some enviomental reason.

And where would the gay person find other gay people? wouldnt it just be more logical to just turn the sex drive off completely than to reverse it?

I would think homosexuality as far as sex goes would just be a byproduct of a high sex drive...like masterbation...donest help you procreate and it wastes energy.

Now homosexual love is a whole other can of worms.

Well, as far as the sexual drive goes.....to borrow from E.O.W. once more, "Sex is also a bonding device which ultimately promotes survival".   

Altruism in animals also appears to have a genetic basis, but we know this cannot be in its entirety because natural selection would seem to select against altruism and the altruism gene should die out, but it doesn't and altruism continues from one life cycle to the next. It doesn't appear to me that Homosexuality is entirely genetic.  If I had to name a cause right now I'd say it is a combination of Genetic, Natal influences and environment.  Really, it may be a very long time until we have a definitive answer regarding the causes.  It is enough for me to know that it is far from unusual in nature and has been w/ humanity, at least, since we have started recording history.  

Wilson's studies do seem to find agreement w/ many of the most recent studies on homosexuality and genetics, especially how w/ each consecutive sibling the odds of him/her being gay grow considerably.  First born children being gay are most rare and the odds appear to increase w/ each additional child.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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Interesting...

Glad to see you bring something to the table...

 

This is one of those subjects where I admit to knowing little science-wise...like I think most people would that have sense...to quote wise Mr Bush, "The jury is still out".   but all points you made are valid and are as good or better than any I had before.

 

 Now homosexuality on a social stand point is the other thing.  I think we all agree here that it is more important to be happy with someone than to fit in with social norms.

"When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the Land and the Missionaries had the Bible, They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the Land and we had the Bible." - Jomo Kenyatta


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Quote: Here is what I am

Quote:
Here is what I am thinking though...that would mean that homosexuality is genetic. If it is, only those with the Honosexual gene would pass it on. (Im assuming it would be recessive). If it was it would be very rare to find 2 people to mate and have gay kids. And there would be entire families of gay kids on occasion, I never seen that without some enviomental reason.

I already posted this link in another thread, but it should help you out.

http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060224_gay_genes.html

Quote:
I would think homosexuality as far as sex goes would just be a byproduct of a high sex drive...like masterbation...donest help you procreate and it wastes energy.

Sex without procreation is a waste of energy? And here I was thinking it was the best kind.

 

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine