Idiocy of Ray Comfort

MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Idiocy of Ray Comfort

Would any atheist be stupid enough to be convinced by his arguments? Maybe one who was only an atheist by somehow never being exposed to any religion. The idea that ever lying in your life makes you a liar, o that ever stealing (including as a child) makes you a thief. Not to mention the even more ridiculous assertion that being angry at someone is equivalent to murder or looking at someone lustfully equals adultery. And even if this were true, how exactly does it prove God/Christianity? He seems to generally not "get" atheism! Then there's his absurd bananna thing.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


American Atheist
American Atheist's picture
Posts: 1331
Joined: 2006-09-03
User is offlineOffline
For real.

For real.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
The first time I ever heard

The first time I ever heard him (or even of him) was when he was on the RRS show. I actually thought he was a parody like the Landover Baptist. Was pretty shocked to hear he was actually serious.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


American Atheist
American Atheist's picture
Posts: 1331
Joined: 2006-09-03
User is offlineOffline
This is a video of Ray

This is a video of Ray Comfort. I kinda like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38qYIKQfg4

 

I have never heard of the Landover Baptist.

Until now.


todangst
atheistRational VIP!
todangst's picture
Posts: 2811
Joined: 2006-03-10
User is offlineOffline
I'd like to use this, and

I'd like to use this, and perhaps one other thread to discuss Comfort's bad arguments, and how to best show their flaws.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Great idea. People seem to

Great idea. People seem to think they are good arguments for some reason.


Rigor_OMortis
Rigor_OMortis's picture
Posts: 557
Joined: 2006-06-18
User is offlineOffline
Guys, listen... Remember

Guys, listen...

Remember Ray's video with the "atheists' nightmare", the banana?

I was thinking of doing a counter-video on that one. Something like the "theists nightmare", the pineapple, or something like that.

I've got all the necessary equipment, and I'll be aided by my friend, who's going to do the filming, editing and processing.

Three questions for you:

- has something like that been made?

- if I do the video, will you help me make it public, after I googlevideo or youtube it?

- will you help me find a proper fruit/vegetable and the necessary arguments as to why it is the "theists' nightmare"? (oh, and please, do not come up with hot chilli peppers and make me demonstrate by eating it Smile)

Personally I don't think that many theists will be convinced by his stupid arguments, but who knows. I think such a "video response" would do the trick. Sometimes it's better to fight people with their own weapons.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


American Atheist
American Atheist's picture
Posts: 1331
Joined: 2006-09-03
User is offlineOffline
Sounds cool.

Sounds cool.


rab
rab's picture
Posts: 273
Joined: 2007-02-18
User is offlineOffline
I read on another message

I read on another message board that the banana of today is cultivated from its orginal form which was shaped more like a pear and had a much tougher peel. I can't remember the link to that but there was even a picture of what the original fruit looks like. This is another way to show tht Comfort is wrong, the banana of today is man-made!Laughing

Support the Separation of Church & State!
Freedom From Religion Foundation


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
The bananna the atheists

The bananna the atheists nightmare?

HAHAHAHA

First of all, the banana is the theist's nightmare. It proves the evolutionary concept of biochemical genotype similarity. Roughly 60% of the banana genome is identical to ours.

Second of all, Good ol' Ray seemed to be implying that the banana was designed for human consumption which is rather odd because the banana Musacae order (which the banana, of the Musa genus belongs to) has been around longer than man by three orders of magnitude. 

The "designed for" argument of the ID people misses a ridiculously obvious evolutionary axiom: Organisms live in environmental symbiosis. Animals evolve to eat fruit, which evolve to serve animals. ID theorists say that prey are "beautifully designed" to evade predators forgetting that predators are "beautifully designed" to kill them. The whole environmental relationship has to do with a Malthus limit, population cycles and environmental stasis. 

Of course, I wouldnt expect a man like Ray to understand such concepts. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote: The

deludedgod wrote:

The bananna the atheists nightmare?

HAHAHAHA

First of all, the banana is the theist's nightmare. It proves the evolutionary concept of biochemical genotype similarity. Roughly 60% of the banana genome is identical to ours.

I see it now. From a Future Chick Tract: "You evolutionist can't stop at saying we're just advanced apes, now we're just advanced bananas. You're the cause of all of society's ills!"


Diosdato
Theist
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote: The

deludedgod wrote:

The bananna the atheists nightmare?

HAHAHAHA

First of all, the banana is the theist's nightmare. It proves the evolutionary concept of biochemical genotype similarity. Roughly 60% of the banana genome is identical to ours.

Second of all, Good ol' Ray seemed to be implying that the banana was designed for human consumption which is rather odd because the banana Musacae order (which the banana, of the Musa genus belongs to) has been around longer than man by three orders of magnitude.

The "designed for" argument of the ID people misses a ridiculously obvious evolutionary axiom: Organisms live in environmental symbiosis. Animals evolve to eat fruit, which evolve to serve animals. ID theorists say that prey are "beautifully designed" to evade predators forgetting that predators are "beautifully designed" to kill them. The whole environmental relationship has to do with a Malthus limit, population cycles and environmental stasis.

Of course, I wouldnt expect a man like Ray to understand such concepts.

A. It doesn't prove anything. Biochemical genotype similarity presupposes that because of the similarity we have a common ancestor. It could just as easily point to a singular Designer. Most architects work looks similar, painters paintings resemble each other, etc.

B. How do you know how long the banana has been around? I believe once again that your statement is presumptive and speculative at best.

 

C. Which evolved first, the plant or the herbivore, the herbivore or the carnivore, the bee or the flower. C'mon man, you have more faith in your "science" than any theist does in God. You guys need to quit making excuses. The only difference between scientific theory and creation theory is creation has a rulebook, science doesn't. Science is a cop out, an easy excuse to live with whatever sin it is you are trying to justify. The truth is, you can no more provide SOLID evidence for the origin of life than a creationist can. You CHOOSE to believe that God is non-existant. Too bad that doesn't make Him disappear, wether or not you belive in him, you will face him. I think someone said it best when they said, "No one dies an atheist"

In His Love,

Dio


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
A. It doesn't prove

A. It doesn't prove anything. Biochemical genotype similarity presupposes that because of the similarity we have a common ancestor. It could just as easily point to a singular Designer. Most architects work looks similar, painters paintings resemble each other, etc.

Unfounded assertion with a false dichotomy. Evolutionary genetic conservation has 400 highly conserved genes in three billion years. There is no evidence for a designer, but there is for evolution, so "assuming" that it could be the work of a designer is ridiculous.

B. How do you know how long the banana has been around? I believe once again that your statement is presumptive and speculative at best.

Ever studied amino acid tracking or biomolecular clocks? Ever seen a DNA line microarray?

C. Which evolved first, the plant or the herbivore, the herbivore or the carnivore, the bee or the flower. C'mon man, you have more faith in your "science" than any theist does in God. You guys need to quit making excuses. The only difference between scientific theory and creation theory is creation has a rulebook, science doesn't. Science is a cop out, an easy excuse to live with whatever sin it is you are trying to justify. The truth is, you can no more provide SOLID evidence for the origin of life than a creationist can. You CHOOSE to believe that God is non-existant. Too bad that doesn't make Him disappear, wether or not you belive in him, you will face him. I think someone said it best when they said, "No one dies an atheist"

I don't even need to answer that. You can look it up for yourself in a speciative branching tree which comes first. You clearly do not understand endoymbiosis, genotype divergence or anything else for that matter. Really, your nonsense is embarrasing. Creationist's "rulebook" is 2000 yers out of date. No-one dies an atheist?? Sagan? Russell? My grandfather? When I die I shall be as I was in the time of the unborn (a quote by Mark Twain, a man whose intellect greatly exceeds your own) there is no maker for me to face. I CHOOSE not to believe because there is no rational, emprical evidence to suggest I should.

Science is a cop out? You are typing on a computer. You probably have a TV. Have you ever swallowed a pill, been to a hospital. Come on, that is a pathetic statement. We owe everything we have in this world to the hard work of science. You pick and choose which parts to accept just because some of it contradicts the Bible, which was written 2000 years ago. Evolution is just as much fact as electromagnetism or neurology or electronics and classical physics. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: C'mon man,

Diosdato wrote:
C'mon man, you have more faith in your "science" than any theist does in God.

Then you must have no faith in god, because science doesn't require faith.

Diosdato wrote:
You guys need to quit making excuses.

Excuse for what?

Diosdato wrote:
The only difference between scientific theory and creation theory is creation has a rulebook, science doesn't.

What are you saying here? The only difference between the scientific description of nature and the Bible's description of nature is the Bible?

Diosdato wrote:
Science is a cop out, an easy excuse to live with whatever sin it is you are trying to justify.

Look who's doing presumptive and speculative statements now. I'm not an atheist because I'm a hedonist.

Diosdato wrote:
The truth is, you can no more provide SOLID evidence for the origin of life than a creationist can.

This is an argument from ignorance.

Diosdato wrote:
You CHOOSE to believe that God is non-existant.

Of course. I choose not to believe in God because there's no reason to.

Diosdato wrote:
Too bad that doesn't make Him disappear, wether or not you belive in him, you will face him.

Too bad, believing in him doesn't make him real. Your threats of being punished by god are laughable.

Diosdato wrote:
I think someone said it best when they said, "No one dies an atheist"

Bullshit. Carl Sagan died an atheist. Are you here for a serious discussion or are you going to spout off fundie cliches?


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
Quote: Science is a cop

Quote:
Science is a cop out

So I guess your going to not take any mediaction, or go to the hospital? Don't want to use any of the cop out. 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
Quote: We owe everything we

Quote:
We owe everything we have in this world to the hard work of science.

Correction, we owe things to scientists and inventors, and other people who (Along with the scientific process (Yes science has a process and therefore has rules)) made many things, including printing presses (IRONY)

 

I wonder what the rules are for creationism? Don't take pills becuase it's a cop out? 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


Diosdato
Theist
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
You guys are quite

You guys are quite hilarious.  I love it when I get you all fired up. What I love is when you take my statements out of context and then argue with what you want me to have said.

I said Science was a cop out in the context of evolutionary theory and the origin of life. You can accuse me of being an idiot if you want, but I aced molecular biology, physics, etc. in college and probably outscored most of you dweebs on the SAT and ACT yet you continue to act like I don't know what I'm saying. I'm not some little fundamentalist Christian who was raised to believe one way and one way alone, I chose Christ as a freshman in college.

I'm also not trying to tell you (deludedgod) that I disagree with your science, I simply ask if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of a banana (within 1000 years) for that matter, your "evidence" as you call it, only indicates what could be. If your fine with your beliefs, then so am I.  I tried to convince you of the truth and I'll sleep well tonight.

Mr. Rage, I never said you were a hedonist. I am glad you got a haircut though. My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist. For every argument I hear for evolution, I can find a rebuttal from creationism. Just like politics, no matter who you like you can hear something bad about your guy.  Does that mean that you shouldn't vote for him? No, by all means you should vote for the politician that has convinced you he is the best man for the job. Only time will tell whether or not your vote was actually for a good man. That's kind of a stretch b/c in politics good is relative.  Who knows whether or not Gore or Kerry would have been better than Bush (they would almost have to be in a coma not to be) , but with God it is a little more serious. I realize that sounds like Pascal's wager (which I don't intend, b/c I think its dumb), but if your wrong, and you cannot know for absolute sure that you're not (that would imply absolute knowledge of the universe), you will have hell to pay. I know I can't convince you guys to agree with my beliefs, and that's okay. If you have a life altering experience that cannot be attributed to anything but God like I did, let me know, I'd be happy to introduce you to the Christianity that God intended.......not man.

I'm out,

Dio


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: My point

Diosdato wrote:

My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

I work.  I pay my bills.  I pay my taxes.  I take care of my critters.  I don't annoy the neighbors.  I volunteer.  I try very hard to be kind.

I'm obviously trying to justify all that by being an Atheist. 

 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Iruka Naminori
atheist
Iruka Naminori's picture
Posts: 1955
Joined: 2006-11-21
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: My point

Diosdato wrote:

My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

No.  I don't believe in god because the idea is utterly ludicrous.

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote:Mr. Rage, I

Diosdato wrote:
Mr. Rage, I never said you were a hedonist. I am glad you got a haircut though.

What does my hair style have to do with anything?

Diosdato wrote:
My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

I got "all fired up" because of this statement. You come off as a self righteous prick. Convincing myself that God doesn't exist so I can "hold on to a sin" is just as bad as a smoker ignoring his lung cancer just so he can continue to smoke. Becoming an atheist just so you can do whatever you please is the wrong reason to become an atheist, and any behavior flaws of mine have nothing to do with my atheism. If anyone is an atheist for this reason, it tells me that they still believe that God exists and is going to punish them, but they just want to ignore it.

Diosdato wrote:
For every argument I hear for evolution, I can find a rebuttal from creationism. Just like politics, no matter who you like you can hear something bad about your guy.  Does that mean that you shouldn't vote for him? No, by all means you should vote for the politician that has convinced you he is the best man for the job. [Diosdato goes off on a tangent bashing President Bush]...

Science is not at all like politics. This analogy sucks. Sure, you can come up with some "rebuttal from creationism," but creationists don't do science and don't have any peer reviewed research. This is why, among other reasons, we don't take your rebuttals seriously.

Diosdato wrote:
but with God it is a little more serious. I realize that sounds like Pascal's wager (which I don't intend, b/c I think its dumb), but if your wrong, and you cannot know for absolute sure that you're not (that would imply absolute knowledge of the universe), you will have hell to pay.

If you didn't intend to use Pascal's wager, then why did you use it? Saying, "What if you're wrong?" is the heart of the wager. I hope the true god isn't Allah and Mohammed is is prophet, or we'll both have hell to pay.

Diosdato wrote:
I know I can't convince you guys to agree with my beliefs, and that's okay.

Why can't you convince us? If your believe in something that's true, shouldn't you be able to convince us? You're OK with me not sharing your beliefs? You're OK with me going to hell?

Diosdato wrote:
If you have a life altering experience that cannot be attributed to anything but God like I did, let me know, I'd be happy to introduce you to the Christianity that God intended.......not man.

I don't discount your experience. I wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for one of these experiences (my father almost killed himself, but right before he did it he claims God spoke to him.) But how did you come to the conclusion that this experience didn't have any other explanation? I'm not challenging you for the sake of it. I really do want to know what your evidence is.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Susan wrote: Diosdato

Susan wrote:
Diosdato wrote:

My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

I work.  I pay my bills.  I pay my taxes.  I take care of my critters.  I don't annoy the neighbors.  I volunteer.  I try very hard to be kind.

I'm obviously trying to justify all that by being an Atheist. 

 

Yeah, but there's some sin you're holding on to. Is it watching R rated movies? Listening to that devil rock music? Do you enjoy a beer now and then?


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
Susan wrote: Diosdato

Susan wrote:
Diosdato wrote:

My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

I work. I pay my bills. I pay my taxes. I take care of my critters. I don't annoy the neighbors. I volunteer. I try very hard to be kind.

I'm obviously trying to justify all that by being an Atheist.

 

Don't forget I have horrific sin of taking care of my little sister (autistic), maybe I should be a good christian and stone her when she doesn't do as I say.

But then again christians don't believe in thoth so they can justifiy their sins. 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
MrRage wrote: Susan

MrRage wrote:
Susan wrote:
Diosdato wrote:

My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

I work. I pay my bills. I pay my taxes. I take care of my critters. I don't annoy the neighbors. I volunteer. I try very hard to be kind.

I'm obviously trying to justify all that by being an Atheist.

 

Yeah, but there's some sin you're holding on to. Is it watching R rated movies? Listening to that devil rock music? Do you enjoy a beer now and then?

Busted.

P.S.  I cuss sometimes, too. 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
But Vis-à-vis with my last

But Vis-à-vis with my last post, I'd like to return to the humble banana. The atheist nightmare. Look how the ridges point to certain parts of the hand, and when aligned points the banana to the face.

*aligns lines*

See?

*Looks at banana*

*[the banana is pointing away from face]*

Uh...well, that's a satan banana, here's a good one.

 *aligns lines*

See?

*Looks at banana*

*[the banana is pointing away from face]*

Uh... we will move on. Notice how easy the peel comes... *Tugs at the tab*

the peel... uuhhgg... the peel comes easily off.

*Grabs knife*

*Cut banana*

Uhh... god made the knife too. sometime around 2000 BC,  after the flood (When was the flood?). That's what killed those kids, it wasn't a bear.

Now easily it slips into the mouth... looks just like a dild- uh... dil-dil dil- dill pickle... ya, dill pickle.Now you shove the banana in your bu-bu-bu-bu-mouth, And enjoy.

*Eats banana* 

It's also a good thing the banana can tell you how good it is on the cover. Green is too early, yellow is just right, just like this ban...na...na.

and uh... brown is too late.

May god bless and remember to stay away from the evil devil foods like the onion and the potato. 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


American Atheist
American Atheist's picture
Posts: 1331
Joined: 2006-09-03
User is offlineOffline
LOL! That was funny, Ophios.

LOL! That was funny, Ophios. Smile


todangst
atheistRational VIP!
todangst's picture
Posts: 2811
Joined: 2006-03-10
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: A. It

Diosdato wrote:

A. It doesn't prove anything.

Actually, it does. Evolution would predict such an outcome.

 

Quote:
 

Biochemical genotype similarity presupposes that because of the similarity we have a common ancestor.

Right.

Quote:
 

It could just as easily point to a singular Designer.

Not really. ID theory isn't falsifiable, so anything would support ID. If there were no genetic similarity, ID would claim that that outcome supports ID.  

 

Quote:
 

Most architects work looks similar, painters paintings resemble each other, etc.

To apply this concept to ID is to beg the question that life is akin to an artifact. 

 

Quote:

B. How do you know how long the banana has been around? I believe once again that your statement is presumptive and speculative at best.

 

C. Which evolved first, the plant or the herbivore, the herbivore or the carnivore, the bee or the flower. C'mon man, you have more faith in your "science" than any theist does in God.

Not really. But I'd like to point out what an interesting thing it is to watch a theist accuse others of having faith....oh, the irony.

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


todangst
atheistRational VIP!
todangst's picture
Posts: 2811
Joined: 2006-03-10
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: You guys

Diosdato wrote:

You guys are quite hilarious. I love it when I get you all fired up

And I love it when a theist accuses others of taking things on faith as an insult.  

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


BGH
BGH's picture
Posts: 2772
Joined: 2006-09-28
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: My point

Diosdato wrote:

My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

Like the catholic priests holding on to those poor altar boys? Or like theists holding on to magic guy in the sky thinking? Or like theists holding on to this idea of special creation or a 6000yr old earth? Or like any other fantastical belief in your head that makes you feel better about the thought of dying? 


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10147
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: I said

Diosdato wrote:
I said Science was a cop out in the context of evolutionary theory and the origin of life.

Oh really?

Diosdato wrote:

The only difference between scientific theory and creation theory is creation has a rulebook, science doesn't. Science is a cop out, an easy excuse to live with whatever sin it is you are trying to justify.

Your words show otherwise. Where is creations rule book? I've never seen one. Never even heard of one. I can show you a number of rule books for science. But the most important scientific rule is the rule of science, conveniently found within it's own definition.

"Those branches of study relating to the phenomena of the physical universe and its laws, a connected body of demonstrated truths with observed facts systematically classified under general laws; the study of relative, modified Principles which can be proven through physical measurements and through physical senses."

I believe this comes from the Oxford dictionary. I could be misinformed, but the definition is correct regardless. With all of this, your claim of science being a cop out is irrational in any context.

Diosdato wrote:
You can accuse me of being an idiot if you want, but I aced molecular biology, physics, etc. in college and probably outscored most of you dweebs on the SAT and ACT yet you continue to act like I don't know what I'm saying.

So you claim. I say you're a braggart with nothing to show for it. Including the knowledge that would have come with being an expert in such fields, if you did in fact even take them.

Diosdato wrote:
Mr. Rage, I never said you were a hedonist. I am glad you got a haircut though. My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

You believe falsly. I have always been an atheist. It has nothing to do with "sin". It has to do with logic and reason. It has to do with not believing in santa, which is another belief I never subscribed to.

Diosdato wrote:
For every argument I hear for evolution, I can find a rebuttal from creationism.

No. You can find something(always something), but it's never a rebuttal. Creationism has failed to rebut. ID was their latest attempt. We now wait and see what the next attempt will be. In the mean time we'll inform those who somehow missed the facts years ago about what the facts are.

Diosdato wrote:
Just like politics, no matter who you like you can hear something bad about your guy.

As much as it seems politicians are trying to drag science into politics, in the end they will fail. Science cannot be subjective, it is not science when it is.

Diosdato wrote:
I realize that sounds like Pascal's wager (which I don't intend, b/c I think its dumb), but if your wrong, and you cannot know for absolute sure that you're not (that would imply absolute knowledge of the universe), you will have hell to pay.

I know I'm not wrong. And no, it doesn't imply absolute knowledge of the universe. It implies a logical basis in reality with the ability to recognize fiction as fiction. So no problem.

Diosdato wrote:
I know I can't convince you guys to agree with my beliefs, and that's okay. If you have a life altering experience that cannot be attributed to anything but God like I did, let me know, I'd be happy to introduce you to the Christianity that God intended.......not man.

The day your god shows up, bring him by and introduce him to me. I'd love to meet him/her/it/whatever. Until then, don't ask me to believe in your invisible friend that not even you can see.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


todangst
atheistRational VIP!
todangst's picture
Posts: 2811
Joined: 2006-03-10
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: My point

Diosdato wrote:

My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

What a desparate rationalization. According to your own religion, all an atheist who felt this way would have to do was to ask Jesus to be forgiven, and they'd go to heaven in eternal bliss.

The only one doing any 'convincing' is the theist, who has to take his belief on faith. Most atheists would love to believe that they could have eternal bliss... 

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


Rigor_OMortis
Rigor_OMortis's picture
Posts: 557
Joined: 2006-06-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote: You guys are quite

Quote:
You guys are quite hilarious. I love it when I get you all fired up. What I love is when you take my statements out of context and then argue with what you want me to have said.

OK then, I'll argue with what you said exactly.

Quote:
I said Science was a cop out in the context of evolutionary theory and the origin of life.

OK, so it is a cop-out because (stop me where I go wrong): 1) it doesn't explain everything; 2) it doesn't support sky-daddies; 3) it's the only provable aspect that can be verified by anyone with enough will and resources to do it (and no, I never said that verifying a scientific theory/fact should be cost-free and easy for everyone).

Quote:
You can accuse me of being an idiot if you want, but I aced molecular biology, physics, etc. in college and probably outscored most of you dweebs on the SAT and ACT yet you continue to act like I don't know what I'm saying.

I notice the "probably" within your sentence.

Quote:
I'm not some little fundamentalist Christian who was raised to believe one way and one way alone, I chose Christ as a freshman in college.

Good for you, rummy.

Quote:
I'm also not trying to tell you (deludedgod) that I disagree with your science, I simply ask if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the age of a banana (within 1000 years) for that matter, your "evidence" as you call it, only indicates what could be.

Sure. Recreate all experiments that have led to this conclusion. If you can't find what they are, go talk to someone who has performed at least one of them (and no, I didn't recreate any of them). It will cost you... quite a lot, but hey ! Progress demands sacrifice.

Quote:
If your fine with your beliefs, then so am I.

I would be fine with your beliefs as well, under normal, ideal circumstances. But than again, these aren't normal circumstances.

Quote:
My point is that I truly believe that the majority of atheists have a sin they hold onto and the only way they can justify their lifestyle is by convincing yourself that God doesn't exist.

Rigor O'Mortis' list of sins:

- atheist (actually a bit counter-theist)

- lied (mostly been in the "Why didn't you tell me ...?" / "Because you didn't ask." situation)

- used foul language

- made certain people look like idiots

- insulted (it happens from time to time, and I do normally apologize, but it's still a sin)

- didn't give all my money to the poor, so that they can become rich (and the roles would go the other way around, but I guess Jesus didn't think this one over too well)

- had sex before marriage (and I'm still not married)

- coveted his neighbour's woman (not sure how this one works, though, because I never coveted a married woman, that, of course, I knew was married, and technically, since a woman's not married, it couldn't be "another man's"... and if I had no way of knowing whether or not a woman was married, I'm not exactly sure that my thought of "That chick is hot!" was actually a sin done with my free will that doesn't contradict God's omniscience)

...and the list kind of stops here. I don't remember killing anyone, I don't remember having stolen anyone's assets, I haven't blasphemed (yet).

So... what would be the great sin that I wish to live with ... ?

I do not dispute that some atheists have become like that because they realized, at a certain point in their life, that for their "sins" they will never enter heaven, so they shouldn't waste time on something pointless, but your generalization is at least a hasty one.

Quote:
For every argument I hear for evolution, I can find a rebuttal from creationism.

Why don't you write a book on it then? I'm doing that, but it goes the other way around.

Quote:
Just like politics, no matter who you like you can hear something bad about your guy.  Does that mean that you shouldn't vote for him? No, by all means you should vote for the politician that has convinced you he is the best man for the job.

OK, I then have to choose between Buddha and Odin. They're my favourite gods. They accept their nature and they aren't so vengeful with humans for "sins" that are so measly that no normal, intelligent human being would ever get mad at. I'd likely vote for Odin, though. Valhalla sounds cooler than nirvana. Being up there with all the blade'n'axe-swinging guys, listening to traditional nordic music, drinking and participating in orgies and mock plundering of mock villages, just to keep our spirits high. Besides, Freya looks quite hot, too.

That's what your analogy sounds like. You put it forward, not me.

Quote:
I realize that sounds like Pascal's wager (which I don't intend, b/c I think its dumb), but if your wrong, and you cannot know for absolute sure that you're not (that would imply absolute knowledge of the universe), you will have hell to pay.

Let me rephrase what you just said: I think it's dumb to ask someone for nutties, so... do you have any nutties?

If you didn't want to use Pascal's wager, what on Earth made you use it?

Quote:
I know I can't convince you guys to agree with my beliefs, and that's okay.

Well, perhaps if your belief had some truth basis in it, then I'd be willing to believe it.

Jesus once put it this way: "If you have faith at least the size of a grain of mustard, then you will say to the mountain "Move" and it will move." But I haven't seen mountains moving lately.

Quote:
If you have a life altering experience that cannot be attributed to anything but God like I did, let me know, I'd be happy to introduce you to the Christianity that God intended.......not man.

Hmm... life-altering experience... (browsing)... (still browsing)... Oh yes, would the death of my grandfather count? He was a doctor and a tailor (he had such a passion for both jobs, that he chose to follow both, and successfully). At the age of 65, he had a cardiovasculary accident, and remained paralyzed on his right side. Though he was one of the most devout Christians that I've ever seen, I really loved my grandfather, and I respected him, and so did the whole community (a proof that everybody knew him, and about 90% of the community showed up at his funeral to pay respects, which cost us probably about the same ammount of money that we used to build our whole house). In July 2000, he had a second strike which was fatal.

I apologize, but if I am to attribute THIS life-altering experience to God, I see absolutely no reason why I should love him.

OK, next one. When I was in high school, some years ago, I was invited to one of my classmates' birthday party. There I met her the person who was to become one of my best friends and that would alter the whole perspective on life I had since then, offering me a possibility to do what I really want with my life (it was him that I chose to do law school because). This person, by the way, is also an atheist, like me.

Why I would attribute this to God, I have absolutely no idea. Perhaps you should clue me in.

Quote:
I'm out,

Dio

We know you're out. We can see that.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


ChosenByPasta
ChosenByPasta's picture
Posts: 141
Joined: 2006-08-08
User is offlineOffline
You just have to believe!

You just have to believe! Just believe in him and he will come to you!


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
I said Science was a cop

I said Science was a cop out in the context of evolutionary theory and the origin of life. You can accuse me of being an idiot if you want, but I aced molecular biology, physics, etc. in college and probably outscored most of you dweebs on the SAT and ACT yet you continue to act like I don't know what I'm saying.

You "probably" scored higher than us on the SATS. Congratulations, Mr. Unfounded Assertions of the Year Award Winner

You 'aced" molecular bio and physics. You are obviously lying. IN the thread Questions for Creationists, Yellow #5 asked you how to explain Endogenous Retroviral Gene Insertion in light of your creationist beliefs.

You responded "Hmmmmm, that's pretty deep, I won't pretend to know what you are talking about".

So you "aced" molecular bio, yet you don't understand the RNA-DNA-Protein relationship versus transcription functions and insertions? That is part of the core central tenets of molecular bio, something every biochemistry student learns almost immediately. If you don't understand ERVs, you don't understand molecular bio, and you definitely did not "ace" it. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Rigor_OMortis
Rigor_OMortis's picture
Posts: 557
Joined: 2006-06-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote: I said Science was a

Quote:
I said Science was a cop out in the context of evolutionary theory and the origin of life. You can accuse me of being an idiot if you want, but I aced molecular biology, physics, etc. in college and probably outscored most of you dweebs on the SAT and ACT yet you continue to act like I don't know what I'm saying.

You "probably" scored higher than us on the SATS. Congratulations, Mr. Unfounded Assertions of the Year Award Winner

You 'aced" molecular bio and physics. You are obviously lying. IN the thread Questions for Creationists, Yellow #5 asked you how to explain Endogenous Retroviral Gene Insertion in light of your creationist beliefs.

You responded "Hmmmmm, that's pretty deep, I won't pretend to know what you are talking about".

So you "aced" molecular bio, yet you don't understand the RNA-DNA-Protein relationship versus transcription functions and insertions? That is part of the core central tenets of molecular bio, something every biochemistry student learns almost immediately. If you don't understand ERVs, you don't understand molecular bio, and you definitely did not "ace" it.

PWNED !

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


jmm
Theist
jmm's picture
Posts: 837
Joined: 2007-03-03
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: deludedgod

Diosdato wrote:
deludedgod wrote:

The bananna the atheists nightmare?

HAHAHAHA

First of all, the banana is the theist's nightmare. It proves the evolutionary concept of biochemical genotype similarity. Roughly 60% of the banana genome is identical to ours.

Second of all, Good ol' Ray seemed to be implying that the banana was designed for human consumption which is rather odd because the banana Musacae order (which the banana, of the Musa genus belongs to) has been around longer than man by three orders of magnitude.

The "designed for" argument of the ID people misses a ridiculously obvious evolutionary axiom: Organisms live in environmental symbiosis. Animals evolve to eat fruit, which evolve to serve animals. ID theorists say that prey are "beautifully designed" to evade predators forgetting that predators are "beautifully designed" to kill them. The whole environmental relationship has to do with a Malthus limit, population cycles and environmental stasis.

Of course, I wouldnt expect a man like Ray to understand such concepts.

Which evolved first, the plant or the herbivore, the herbivore or the carnivore, the bee or the flower. C'mon man, you have more faith in your "science" than any theist does in God. You guys need to quit making excuses. The only difference between scientific theory and creation theory is creation has a rulebook, science doesn't. Science is a cop out, an easy excuse to live with whatever sin it is you are trying to justify. The truth is, you can no more provide SOLID evidence for the origin of life than a creationist can. You CHOOSE to believe that God is non-existant. Too bad that doesn't make Him disappear, wether or not you belive in him, you will face him. I think someone said it best when they said, "No one dies an atheist"

In His Love,

Dio

whoa, ronnie james dio?  

 but seriously though, your post is not very good.  i know i sound like a broken record already, but i don't think that atheism is a reaction to faith in and of itself.  of course there is an element of faith to science.  i'm not talking about "faith" in the same generic way that people use the word "soul" nowadays, i'm talking about being able to rely on certain things or processes that you can't necessarily empirically observe real-time, but for which evidence are present that sufficiently convince you of whatever the object of your faith is, be it science, god, or whatever.  

for instance, the rock cycle is not observable in real time.  it occurs at a much slower rate in relation to how fast a human life cycle occurs.  but we can go back and study rocks, study the earth, and discover a wealth of evidence in favor of plate tectonics and such.  the geologist must have faith in the plate tectonic theory in order to build on it and do research beyond it; in other words, he's able to imagine the process occuring right now without actually being able to see it.  and that's fine.  it's not an issue of faith in and of itself, it's the object of faith that's always the issue.   


Chaoslord2004
Chaoslord2004's picture
Posts: 353
Joined: 2006-02-23
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: It could

Diosdato wrote:
It could just as easily point to a singular Designer.

Yes, and its possible that Santa Clause designed all of life too.  So what?  Some possibilities are more probable than others.  Evolution can account for things that creationism cannot account for, such as animal suffering.

 

Diosdato wrote:
C'mon man, you have more faith in your "science" than any theist does in God.

I suggest that you study inductive reasoning before making such a self-evidently and self-refuting false statement.  Religious faith is unjustified belief...it is belief in a set of propositions based merely on desire and with disregard of evidence.  Science, however, demands evidence.  It is an insult to compare science with faith in God.  We inductively infer that science has the best answers because it is the best way to know the natural world.  Do we have faith in science?  no.  So why do we trust it over supernaturalism?  Here is why:  Over the ages, natural explanations have overturned supernatural explanations.  I ask every theist this:  Can you cite me one example...JUST ONE example of supernatural explanations overturning natural ones?

 

Diosdato wrote:
You guys need to quit making excuses. The only difference between scientific theory and creation theory is creation has a rulebook, science doesn't.

godamnit, they need to teach the scientific method is American schools.  I assume your American right?  It seems odd for someone in the modern world to access a computer, and yet still say stupid things like what you just said.  You have to be an American, no self-respecting europeon would spout such nonsense.  Study the scientific method before embarrising yourself further.

 

Diosdato wrote:
Science is a cop out

Science is the reason your alive today.  Science is there to help you when you get sick.  Ever taken a medication?  Fucking asshole.  How dare you bite the hand that feeds you.  Science is a cop-out?  Then don't ever go to a hospital.

 

Diosdato wrote:
I think someone said it best when they said, "No one dies an atheist"

I think I said it best when I say "fuck that guy" 

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions


Chaoslord2004
Chaoslord2004's picture
Posts: 353
Joined: 2006-02-23
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: but I aced

Diosdato wrote:
but I aced molecular biology, physics, etc. in college and probably outscored most of you dweebs on the SAT and ACT

Cut the bullshit.  We know this is a lie.  You are inflating your ego to make yourself sound smart; your not.  You went to college, and yet your still a creationist?  Your professors didn't do their job.  Either that, or they did their job, but you let your dogma get in the way of authentic free inquiry. 

"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions