Why do Theists care about atheists??

RationalSchema
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Why do Theists care about atheists??

If God has a planned and works in mysterious ways then he must have planned atheism, right??


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Right.

Right.


RationalSchema
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I really have to start

I really have to start running spell check.


Ophios
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RationalSchema wrote: If

RationalSchema wrote:

If God has a planned and works in mysterious ways then he must have planned atheism, right??

Many people would just say "It was YOUR choice." and just leave it at that. 

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I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


Dylan
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God didn't "plan" atheists,

God didn't "plan" atheists, but he did know that some people weren't going to believe in him. Thus, we have hell.

Why do Christians care about Atheists? I'll try to say this without being onesided so I'll use an excess of quotation marks.

"Christians" care about "Atheists" the same reason "Atheists" care about "Christians." "Atheists" want to cure the "mind disorder" known as "Theism" and "Christians" want to bring you to "Christianity."

Wow... those quotation marks make my head hurt.


triften
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Dylan wrote: God didn't

Dylan wrote:

God didn't "plan" atheists, but he did know that some people weren't going to believe in him. Thus, we have hell.

I'm going to have to pounce on this again...

Is god omniscient?

Did god create everything?

Could god have created the world in any way he liked?

What do you mean when you say (prepare for more quotation marks Smiling ) he 'didn't "plan" atheists'? How could god have not planned anything if he knew what would occur based on how he set up the world?

The point I'm trying to make is that an omnipotent, omniscient creator-of-everything cannot duck responsibility for the state of his creation. (See todangst's blog entry on "God the iron-worker".) Nothing can possibly be outside of his "plan".

-Triften


Dylan
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Good! Triften, the one who

Good! Triften, the one who caused me to think and rethink about Job!

I'm gonna try to answer this in two perspectives. Gnostic Christianity being one and Mainstream Christianity being the other.

Gnostic: The Demiurge created Earth. The Demiurge loved His creation. The Demiurge isn't omniscient. The Demiurge did not plan on Adam and Eve screwing up His world.

The Most High God created everything, but the Demiurge created Earth.

The Demiurge did create Earth the way He wanted. He didn't really plan on anything bad happening.

In a way, you could say Earth is a mistake of the gods.

Mainstream Christianity: God is omniscient. God created everything. God could have created the world in any way He liked. God knew that no matter what, if He wanted Faith, He could not be able to have everybody believing in Him. It was the choice He made for letting them have free will.

As for why He didn't change only a little so Adam and Eve wouldn't pluck from the tree. I think I just now learned that answer too.

Maybe He knew it would eventually happen anyway, but it was the price He had to pay.

P.S. Oh my gosh! I just realized I'm a Christian who doesn't need to use spell-check! Heh... just kidding. Or maybe I'm not... Wink


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Dylan wrote: Maybe He knew

Dylan wrote:

Maybe He knew it would eventually happen anyway, but it was the price He had to pay.

Then he can't be omnipotent, can he?

-Triften 


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Yes He can. He just chooses

Yes He can. He just chooses not to interrupt our free will.


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Then Why would he be pissed

Then Why would he be pissed if I don't believe in him?

I really can't wait to hear more circular reasoning on this one.

 

Note to Dylan: There is not an answer to everything, that is why religion is ridiculous. There are no absolutes.

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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He isn't necessarily mad as

He isn't necessarily mad as much as He is sad. Just because He does something that causes something He knows is going to happen, doesn't necessarily means He likes the WHOLE ordeal.

That's like a teacher saying, "I really don't want to give you an F, but I have to," and then all of a sudden the teacher doesn't mind. Of course the teacher is pissed that the student got an F! If it is a caring teacher of course.

Trust me, God would much rather had everyone turn out Christian.


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Then why would he allow us

Then why would he allow us to do something he doesn't like? If he has all the control and knows that we are going to get an F, why would he allow it. I mean he created us, wouldn't he make it so perfect. Isn't that what the creationists claim? That the world is so perfectly placed and ordered!!

Why would I trust you?

How come you don't believe in a Jewish God, a Greek God, or a Muslum God?

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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I feel like I'm repeating

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Its because we have something called FREE WILL.

The Jewish God is the Christian God... its the belief in Jesus that's different. A Greek God? Wow... And the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God too. Its the beliefs that are different.


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Dylan wrote: I feel like

Dylan wrote:

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Its because we have something called FREE WILL.

You aren't the only one who feels like he's repeating himself.

An omniscient, omnipotent creator cannot be anything less than omni-responsible for his creation. If god knew that Adam would eat the fruit given all the information and brain power and initial settings that god provided Adam, and god still set things up that way, then god is perfectly responsible for it.

The concept of free will can not exist in the same universe as an omniscient, omnipotent creator.

-Triften


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Dylan wrote: I feel like

Dylan wrote:
I feel like I'm repeating myself. Its because we have something called FREE WILL.

Exodus 4:21-23 wrote:

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

So what was it you were saying about free will?


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Hey, at least he isn't

Hey, at least he isn't Allah... rather close.


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"Why do Theists care about

"Why do Theists care about atheists??"

If they truely believe we will burn you have to wonder why they wouldn't. 


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Dylan wrote: I feel like

Dylan wrote:

I feel like I'm repeating myself. Its because we have something called FREE WILL.

The Jewish God is the Christian God... its the belief in Jesus that's different. A Greek God? Wow... And the Muslim God is the same as the Christian God too. Its the beliefs that are different.

 Yes, Why not worship a Greek God? Why are the beliefs differet? If God made it so clear what is right and wrong, why would he allow a bunch of different beliefs?

Why would God give us free will and then be sad? This does not make sense. If we do have free will, then how can God work in mysterious ways? If someone chooses to go shoot up a school, how can it be considered God's plan? Wouldn't it be just free will?

 

"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."


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Dylan wrote: He isn't

Dylan wrote:

He isn't necessarily mad as much as He is sad. Just because He does something that causes something He knows is going to happen, doesn't necessarily means He likes the WHOLE ordeal.

Then god is incompetent or uncaring. 

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That's like a teacher saying, "I really don't want to give you an F, but I have to," and then all of a sudden the teacher doesn't mind. Of course the teacher is pissed that the student got an F! If it is a caring teacher of course.

Trust me, God would much rather had everyone turn out Christian.

Right, because failing a class is equivalent to eternal torture. 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Dylan
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God gave us free will. God

God gave us free will.

God lets you fuck up.

However, when God wants something done, He will do it.

How is he an uncaring God when he gives you the opportunity to live your lives?

Failing a class compared to eternal torture is an analogy... wow...

The fact that we DO have free will lets God work in mysterious ways.

On if somebody shooting up a school is considered free will: Yes.

On if God planned it: No. Free will! I never said God had a huge master plan that involved every one of our actions. Oh my God, I ate a bowl of cereal. That must mean something... no... it doesn't...

When God left Adam and Eve in the garden, He knew the choice they were going to make. He did not intrude.

Since He's God, I'm pretty sure he can make his own decisions on what He wants to do and what He doesn't.


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Dylan wrote: Good!

Dylan wrote:

Good! Triften, the one who caused me to think and rethink about Job!

I'm gonna try to answer this in two perspectives. Gnostic Christianity being one and Mainstream Christianity being the other.

Gnostic: The Demiurge created Earth. The Demiurge loved His creation. The Demiurge isn't omniscient. The Demiurge did not plan on Adam and Eve screwing up His world.

The Most High God created everything, but the Demiurge created Earth.

The Demiurge did create Earth the way He wanted. He didn't really plan on anything bad happening.

In a way, you could say Earth is a mistake of the gods.

Mainstream Christianity: God is omniscient. God created everything. God could have created the world in any way He liked. God knew that no matter what, if He wanted Faith, He could not be able to have everybody believing in Him. It was the choice He made for letting them have free will.

As for why He didn't change only a little so Adam and Eve wouldn't pluck from the tree. I think I just now learned that answer too.

Maybe He knew it would eventually happen anyway, but it was the price He had to pay.

P.S. Oh my gosh! I just realized I'm a Christian who doesn't need to use spell-check! Heh... just kidding. Or maybe I'm not... Wink

Gnostic View: The Demiurge, a lesser god 'born' of Sophia, created the material world. Sophia created the Demiurge without her 'partner' and therefore the Demiurge is a flawed god. He created the material world (he thought he was all alone, because he was hidden) and created Adam and Eve. The higher Beings wanted to redeem man and sent sparks of divinity into them, but the Demiurge didn't want this, so he commanded them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (which, I believe, is a metaphorical story referring to the time the angel Lucifer told Eve of knowledge and Adam passed that knowledge unto Adam, becoming as gods, because I think what Lucifer told them awoke their Consciousness), but the Demiurge was displeased and punished man and woman...and also Lucifer, who became the metaphorical counterpart of our own Divine Being...

 There...there's the Gnostic point of view...enhanced with extras...

'I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.' - Voltaire


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Dylan wrote: God gave us

Dylan wrote:

God gave us free will.

God lets you fuck up.

Then he's incompetent or uncaring, as I said. 

Quote:
However, when God wants something done, He will do it.

Right, so he has the power and will and knowledge to change things, but will not. How is that caring? 

Quote:
How is he an uncaring God when he gives you the opportunity to live your lives?

Put it this way. If I KNEW a man was going to rob a bank and murder the teller, and I had the POWER to do something about about and did not, what would that make me?

It would make me an implicicit accomplice to that crime according to our justice system.

Why do you hold your God to a LESSER standard of justice than humans impose upon themselves?

How is this person NOT culpable in this situation?

How is god NOT cupable when He KNOWS what is going to happen, has the POWER to change the situation, yet does NOTHING - and then TORTURES you for ETERNITY for something he KNEW you would do and had the POWER to CHANGE?

That's nothing more than sadism, a bully at best. 

Quote:
Failing a class compared to eternal torture is an analogy... wow...

It was YOUR analogy. 

Quote:
The fact that we DO have free will lets God work in mysterious ways.

Ahh, the classic cop out. "Mysterious ways" somehow justifies eternal torture, somehow makes tsunamies and hurricanes OK, somehow makes giving a child HIV part of the "plan". Disgusting. 

Quote:
On if somebody shooting up a school is considered free will: Yes.

And if somebody shoots up a school and you KNEW they would do it, what does that make you? 

Quote:
On if God planned it: No. Free will!

Sorry, you cannot claim freewill and omnicience and omnipotence and benevolence all at once - they are mutually incompatible with the problem of evil, which is what we are discussing. 

Quote:
I never said God had a huge master plan that involved every one of our actions. Oh my God, I ate a bowl of cereal. That must mean something... no... it doesn't...

Yes, it does. If god is omnicient, he KNEW you would eat it. If God KNEW you would eat it, how could you have a CHOICE? 

Quote:
When God left Adam and Eve in the garden, He knew the choice they were going to make. He did not intrude.

What a sadistic prick. 

Quote:
Since He's God, I'm pretty sure he can make his own decisions on what He wants to do and what He doesn't.

So, is God moral, because God is God, or is God moral because God acts morally? 

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Quote: The fact that we DO

Quote:
The fact that we DO have free will lets God work in mysterious ways.

Let's think this mathematically:

Hypotheses:

- man facwed with choice: A or B

- God knows choice is B

- God is omniscient and omnipotent

Question:

- Can man choose A ?

 

If man cannot choose A, free will doesn't apply, man being forced to choose.

If man can choose A, two situations arise:

- man does not choose A

- man chooses A

In the first case: man chooses what God thinks out of pure coincidence. Considering the choices we are facing everyday, considering that we are currently 6 billion people, the chances of this to happen every time are somewhere below 0. Also consider that there are more people with the same choice to make, and more people each trying to choose what the other wouldn't. If this happens absolutely every time, it can mean two things:

- man was programmed to choose what God would choose, that contradicts with different men making different choices on the same topic, and men facing opposite choices

- it is actually God that thinks like a man, but that denies his omnipotence, and can make one wonder whether or not it was actually man who created God, not the other way around

In the second case: man chooses A, but God knows he chose B, therefore God's omniscience fails.

 

So basically yes, God works in ways mysterious... to someone who doesn't want to extend logic beyond appearance.

Quote:
On if God planned it: No. Free will! I never said God had a huge master plan that involved every one of our actions. Oh my God, I ate a bowl of cereal. That must mean something... no... it doesn't...

Which means that our free will is a force that God cannot control. Since there is something that God cannot control, then God is not omnipotent (even stricto-sensu). If God can control our free will, we have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not he has done that. Actually, I'm pretty certain that he has done it already, for the Bible talks about God darkening the hearts or minds of people, so that his prophets could get their point through, etc.

Quote:
How is he an uncaring God when he gives you the opportunity to live your lives?

I give the opportunity for all the other more than 6 billion people live their lives. That doesn't mean I care for all of them.

"Letting them be" does not equal "caring for them". Besides, I don't remember being asked by God whether or not I want to live my life.

Quote:
God gave us free will.

God lets you fuck up.

Another simple mathematical problem:

Two people on two electric chairs (you guys will have to excuse my extraordinarily strange examples). Button within the reach of each one. Whichever one pushes the button releases his restraints, but kills the other one. They have 10 minutes to think and decide, after which, if no button is pushed, both electric chairs activate and both die. They most obviously have to make a choice: One lives and the other dies, or both die.

Consider that you are one of them. What do you choose ?

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
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There is a difference

There is a difference between cannot and will not. God can remove our free will, but He will not. Whether you think this is a bad move is of your own opinion.

I'll use your analogy.

Possible choices: A or B

God knows man will choose A.

Can man choose B? Yes, but he won't. God doesn't control it (But he can), He just knows that its going to be.

 

About the people who go shoot up places: Maybe God doesn't like to help people who commit blasphemy. It wouldn't exactly be the best thing to do.

Yes, I know not all school shootings would be from Atheists, but maybe those "Christians" don't give God the respect either.

Don't expect something from God if you can't give something in return.


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Dylan wrote: There is a

Dylan wrote:
There is a difference between cannot and will not. God can remove our free will, but He will not.

OK, maybe you missed my post. Let me quote it again.

Exodus 4:21-23 wrote:
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

So, God can and WILL remove our free will.


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Israel is the apple of

Israel is the apple of God's eye. His people were being kept in Egypt. Like I said before, maybe you missed it, but if God wants something accomplished, He will do what it takes. Including hardening a man's heart. So God can remove our free will and HAS removed one man's free will, but He had his reasons. In a way, you could say it was the pharaoh's punishment for keeping people as slaves who didn't belong to him.

The hardening of the man's heart was his punishment.

Like I said, what you think about him doing that is of your own opinion.


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Dylan wrote: In a way, you

Dylan wrote:

In a way, you could say it was the pharaoh's punishment for keeping people as slaves who didn't belong to him.

 

Every flipping christian is a mind slave. How can he be mad about owning physical slaves? 


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Well, that's your opinion.

Well, that's your opinion.


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    Dylan wrote: There

 

 

Dylan wrote:

There is a difference between cannot and will not. God can remove our free will, but He will not. Whether you think this is a bad move is of your own opinion.

I'll use your analogy.

Possible choices: A or B

God knows man will choose A.

Can man choose B? Yes, but he won't. God doesn't control it (But he can), He just knows that its going to be.

 

About the people who go shoot up places: Maybe God doesn't like to help people who commit blasphemy. It wouldn't exactly be the best thing to do.

Yes, I know not all school shootings would be from Atheists, but maybe those "Christians" don't give God the respect either.

Don't expect something from God if you can't give something in return.

how would God not allowing people to shoot up schools help a person committing blasphemy?

 it would actually help the people whose lives are being taken against their wills. if I were god, i wouldn't allow people to shoot up schools, because that would be taking away the free will of people who don't want to die. 

 also, how do you relate our free will to natural disasters like Tsunamis. are you saying humans brought these things on themselves?

Ethics and aesthetics are one
-Wittgenstein


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My point it, the day people

My point is, the day people actually start believing and giving God faith and whatnot, is the day when things will turn out better for everyone. I'm not talking about just believing, because you can believe and still not give Him what He wants and that is along the lines of appreciation and love.

And I think Tsunamis and Hurricanes are part of weather...


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Dylan wrote: My point is,

Dylan wrote:

My point is, the day people actually start believing and giving God faith and whatnot, is the day when things will turn out better for everyone. I'm not talking about just believing, because you can believe and still not give Him what He wants and that is along the lines of appreciation and love.

And I think Tsunamis and Hurricanes are part of weather...

the thing is, you haven't made a strong enough case for everyone to jump on your particular bandwagon.  there are too many negative things associated with your brand of faith for me to see it like you do.

didn't God create weather? why did God create weather? He may have not intended to cause suffering with the 2003 Tsunami, but He did, and this suffering had nothing to do with human choices. People lost their entire families. 

Ethics and aesthetics are one
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God created weather, yes.

God created weather, yes. However, I don't think God controls the weather on a daily basis. He might make some changes to accomplish whatever it is He wants to accomplish, but I think He mostly lets weather run its course.


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Dylan wrote:

Dylan wrote:
God created weather, yes. However, I don't think God controls the weather on a daily basis. He might make some changes to accomplish whatever it is He wants to accomplish, but I think He mostly lets weather run its course.

So he uses this omnipotent power for things he wants to accomplish? Saving thousands is not on the "To Do" list I guess....?


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Yet again, your opinion.

Yet again, your opinion.

Since He is omnipotent and omniscient, He might have had a plan for that tsunami that saved lives more than it lost.


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Dylan wrote:

Dylan wrote:
God created weather, yes. However, I don't think God controls the weather on a daily basis. He might make some changes to accomplish whatever it is He wants to accomplish, but I think He mostly lets weather run its course.

so weather is something that God controls sometimes and doesn't control other times?

who/what controls weather when God is not controlling it?

did God create weather ?

why did God create weather in the first place if he knew it would cause so much suffering against the wills of his creation? 

Ethics and aesthetics are one
-Wittgenstein


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I said He just let weather

I said He just let weather run its course. Science still plays a part. So ask the weather men and women why things are happening. There are cold fronts and such.

God created weather for, I'm guessing, travel in the air and the seas.


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Dylan wrote: I said He just

Dylan wrote:
I said He just let weather run its course. Science still plays a part. So ask the weather men and women why things are happening. There are cold fronts and such.

during the plagues of moses, he didn't let it just run its course, right?

why did he let it run its course for the 2003 Tsunami? 

Ethics and aesthetics are one
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Dylan
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mouse wrote:Dylan

mouse wrote:

Dylan wrote:
I said He just let weather run its course. Science still plays a part. So ask the weather men and women why things are happening. There are cold fronts and such.

during the plagues of moses, he didn't let it just run its course, right?

why did he let it run its course for the 2003 Tsunami? 

The plagues weren't exactly weather based.

And He might've not let it run its course for the Tsunami. I don't know if it is the latter or not.


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Dylan wrote: I said He

Dylan wrote:

I said He just let weather run its course. Science still plays a part.

So he uses it when he wants to accomplish something like killing thousands of people but otherwise science takes care of it? Maybe science science should just run the whole show. 


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BGH wrote: Dylan wrote: I

BGH wrote:
Dylan wrote:

I said He just let weather run its course. Science still plays a part.

So he uses it when he wants to accomplish something like killing thousands of people but otherwise science takes care of it? Maybe science science should just run the whole show. 

 

Maybe I have to say this again. Your opinion...


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If I were God, I would not

If I were God, I would not have let hundreds of thousands of people die in such a way.  His indifference was cruel, if he had the power to chang things. And you are saying he does have the power to change things. If anything, he caused millions upon millions who did have faith in your brand of theism to doubt his existence even more.

Ethics and aesthetics are one
-Wittgenstein


Dylan
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mouse wrote: If I were God,

mouse wrote:
If I were God, I would not have let hundreds of thousands of people die in such a way.  His indifference was cruel, if he had the power to chang things. And you are saying he does have the power to change things. If anything, he caused millions upon millions who did have faith in your brand of theism to doubt his existence even more.

Yes, He did let hundreds of thousands of people die. Whether it was cruel, I don't know, because I don't know what He's thinking. It could have been a part of something bigger.

So your thoughts are opinionated.


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  Maybe I have to say

 

Maybe I have to say this again. Your opinion...

Are you not on this board trying to give rational reasons for belief?? It seems that when you have no rebuttal your answer is "Your opinion". 


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BGH wrote:   Maybe I

BGH wrote:

 

Maybe I have to say this again. Your opinion...

Are you not on this board trying to give rational reasons for belief?? It seems that when you have no rebuttal your answer is "Your opinion". 

 

Or it means that whenever I say that, you just stated what you think God is, like cruel and hateful, and don't really say anything else.


mouse
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I suppose it you can view it

I suppose it you can view it as a subjective value judgment to say 200,000 people shouldn't senselessly die. nevertheless, are you saying that your thoughts are any  less opinionated?  why should I believe anything you have to say about God or otherwise?

Ethics and aesthetics are one
-Wittgenstein


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Dylan wrote:  Or it means

Dylan wrote:

 Or it means that whenever I say that, you just stated what you think God is, like cruel and hateful, and don't really say anything else.

 I never made a claim to god's nature, though it is irrelevent because I do not believe he exists,  only that your reasoning for his use of weather was flawed. 


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mouse wrote: I suppose it

mouse wrote:
I suppose it you can view it as a subjective value judgment to say 200,000 people shouldn't senselessly die. nevertheless, are you saying that your thoughts are any  less opinionated?  why should I believe anything you have to say about God or otherwise?

Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said they should've or should not have died. I say "your opinion" when the other person says "Shouldn't we let science handle everything OR then God is cruel and uncaring."

 


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BGH wrote: Dylan

BGH wrote:
Dylan wrote:

 Or it means that whenever I say that, you just stated what you think God is, like cruel and hateful, and don't really say anything else.

 I never made a claim to god's nature, though it is irrelevent because I do not believe he exists,  only that your reasoning for his use of weather was flawed. 

Explain why its flawed and I'll go with the second part of that.


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Well I know where this is

Well I know where this is going to go. If thousands of deaths could be prevented by a "being" who controls the weather "sometimes" a rational person asks then why didn't he? You are going to repond he has a "plan" and we cannot understand the full nature of "god".


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Dylan wrote: mouse

Dylan wrote:

mouse wrote:
I suppose it you can view it as a subjective value judgment to say 200,000 people shouldn't senselessly die. nevertheless, are you saying that your thoughts are any less opinionated? why should I believe anything you have to say about God or otherwise?

Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said they should've or should not have died. I say "your opinion" when the other person says "Shouldn't we let science handle everything OR then God is cruel and uncaring."

 

I am saying definitively 200.000 people should not have died, and a God would be cruel for allowing it to happen. 

 

 

I don't understand your last statement. I didn't bring science into this discussion, I am only talking about God's omnipotence and weather.  God has the power to control weather and not let 200.000 people die. 

Ethics and aesthetics are one
-Wittgenstein


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BGH wrote: Well I know

BGH wrote:
Well I know where this is going to go. If thousands of deaths could be prevented by a "being" who controls the weather "sometimes" a rational person asks then why didn't he? You are going to repond he has a "plan" and we cannot understand the full nature of "god".

And now explain how that's wrong.