I'm agnostic not atheist.

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I'm agnostic not atheist.

I am an agnostic not an atheist. From your comments and video, you clearly lack an understanding of what an agnostic is. Just as I don't believe there is a God, I don't believe there isn't a God either. Here's a definition of what an atheist is, as is roughly used by most English dictionaries:

"A person who positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists" See a contradiction between my beliefs and atheism? Of course.

And I object to having my views summed up as the 'I dunno' viewpoint. I have seen no proof for the existence or non-existence of a God, so I rationally reasoned to be an agnostic.


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Jutter wrote:Okay, try

Jutter wrote:

Okay, try and follow me on this.

If you're saying that you can't know either way, you're basicly ascribing a "maybe" to the god-idea. Seems like a safe middleground. It isn't.

Before I can rightfully say, that monkey's might fly out of my butt, I would first have to show how such a thing could be possible in the first place. Now if there were a known god-concept that could technicly speaking exist, while it hasn't been proven to exist yet, you'd have a proper reason for proposing that said god might exist. Untill then you can't even rightfully use a "maybe" and what's called hard atheism (or strong atheism) is the only viable stance.

I should add, that once you do have such a 'possible' god, it's arguable that applying the term god becomes absurd.  

Yet another strong atheist!

I agree precisely, and I do not see any clear reason for people to claim weak atheism other than out of some misguided fear of seeming dogmatic, or a lack of understanding of the available evidence or of the essential characteristics attributed to any entity that can reasonably be defined as a "god.".

(Though I'm sure someone will be glad to step up and explain why this is not so.)

If my belief that there is no second sun in our solar system, or that a Pegasus-style creature is purely a human invention,  is dogmatic, so be it. It is also correct - or so astronomically unlikely to be incorrect that the probability is negligible.

I've read more about the history of these words, BTW, and the story becomes more and more interesting.

Thomas Huxley coined the term agnosticism very much in the context of trying to explain his atheism, since in his role as "Darwin's Bulldog" he found himself in  an anti-theist role.

He was also trying to distance himself from logical positivist materialism and its problematic conclusion that consciousness is "epiphenomenal."

Huxley did not mean to describe by agnosticism anybody who did not adhere to (the then-well-established meaning of) Gnosticism - so his intended meaning is erroneous according to those who (mistakenly) equate the English word "not" as expressed in the prefix "a-" (or "dis-" or the word "not" itself) as identical to the Boolean operator "NOT."

He had a much more specific meaning in mind, which he (later) filled out and stated as a general principle.

It's rather ironic that the word was co-opted by the population of English-speakers to represent those who claim to have no opinion about the truth or falsehood of theist claims.

Popular ignorance and inability to follow Huxley's reasoning is definitely part of the reason that the word was co-opted.

But another part of the reason is that (counter to the claims of some), the English language (like every natural language) does recognize a condition which is neither belief nor disbelief in a given statement or propostion.

Theism is a polarizing and emotion-laden proposition. Many of the arguments on both sides are too complicated and difficult for many people to understand, or require a grounding in theology or science that many people lack. Many people have no desire to really think hard about the question. Many people are (reasonably) afraid of the embracing a decision (even a provisional one) about the truth or falsehood of theist claims.

For all these reasons, the language was forced to provide a word that described the masses of people who claim not to hold any opinion on the truth or falsehood of theism as a proposition - and to separate them from atheists (people who think that theism is false), and from theists (people who think that theism is true).

All of the faith and prayer in the world

All of your dumb show and circuses

You know it's a lie, it'll always be a lie

The invention of an animal who knows he's going to die

-Randy Newman


christ101
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i noticed on nightline that

i noticed on nightline that girl called atheists a persucted minority> WELL< SHOW ME HOW MANY ATHEISTS HAVEE BEEN BURNED AT THE STAKE FOR THIER LACK OF BELIEFS (SEE FAUXES BOOK OF MARTYRES)


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christ101 wrote: i noticed

christ101 wrote:
i noticed on nightline that girl called atheists a persucted minority> WELL< SHOW ME HOW MANY ATHEISTS HAVEE BEEN BURNED AT THE STAKE FOR THIER LACK OF BELIEFS (SEE FAUXES BOOK OF MARTYRES)

 

So I take it you think the only way you can be pursecuted is by being burned?

Is there any other way?

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


Sapient
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christ101 wrote:

christ101 wrote:
i noticed on nightline that girl called atheists a persucted minority> WELL< SHOW ME HOW MANY ATHEISTS HAVEE BEEN BURNED AT THE STAKE FOR THIER LACK OF BELIEFS (SEE FAUXES BOOK OF MARTYRES)

Here ya go cut and paste boy... this is an IMPARTIAL list... For impact I've included not just heretics but people who disagreed with the Church.  Additionally I certainly wasn't gonna waste time segregating the heretics from the blasphemers considering you're probably not gonna read it, and likely wont respond.

 

The names of the martyrs, quoted below, during the different pontificates which succeeded one another, having been pulled of little stayed documents, are only a small part of the numerous which were really killed by the Holy Mother Church

- Pope Clemente V

Fra Dolcino, by no means intimidated by the threats of the Inquisition, threw himself against Clemente V by accusing him of immorality. Reduced to fragments, his body was burned in the stake. March 13, 1307
Sister Margherita and Brother Longino with 1080 other followers of the heretic Dolcino, burned in the stake. On 1307
Total destruction of the Knight Templars with massacres of mass with " inconceivable tortures " because accused of heresy. Molay, Grand Master, was burnt alive in Paris after years of atrocious tortures.

- Pope Benedetto XII (Sanctified)

Francesco da Pistoia, Lorenzo Gherardi, Bartolomeo Greco, Bartolomeo da Bucciano, Antonio Bevilacqua and ten other Franciscan monks, burned alive to have preached the poverty of the Christ - Venice 1337.
The same fate in Parma for Donna Oliva because she was a follower of S.Francesco.

- Pope Clemente VI

Thousands of victims of the Inquisition from whom reached us only the lawsuits of:
Francesco Stabili, called Cecco d' Ascoli. He was burnt alive to have said, about the temptations of Jesus, that it is not possible to see all the Earth down from a mountain however high it is, as it was asserted by the gospels.
Pietro d' Albano, doctor, burned alive, accused of witchcraft.
Domenico Savi condemned to the stake as heretic to have set up a hospital without the blessing of the Church

- Pope Innocenzo VI

Among the numerous victims of the Holy Mother Church it is necessary to remind the monks Pietro da Novara, Bernardo da Sicilia, Fra Tommaso bishop of Aquino and Francesco Marchesino bishop of Trivento, accused to belong to the small brothers of S. Francesco. Tortured and burned alive.

- Pope Gregorio XI

Whole cities were the theater of massacres because they had accommodated the heretics. On the places of Florence, Venice, Rome and Ferrara stakes ignited constantly.
Belramo Agosti, humble shoemaker, tortured and burned alive to have said a blasphemy while playing with cards: in June 5, 1382.
Menelao Santori because he lived with two women: in October 10, 1387.
Lorenzo de Bologna obliged under the torture to confess to have stolen a ciborium. Death under the tortures, he was accompanied to the stake with boosts. November 1, 1388.

- Pope Gregorio XII

After the period of armistice spent under Urbano VI, with Gregorio XII the massacres and the stakes begin again in a extreme and merciless way. The city which was particularly touched was Pise. Certain young man named Andreani was tortured and burned alive with his wife and his daughter because he had dared to laugh at Conciliar Fathers. The cardinals belonging to the council attended numerous in the execution for the pleasure to see him dying with his family. The one that they " had condemned only for a feeling of revenge", on 1413.
Jean Hus and Gerolamo da Praga shot down and burned to have said that the morality of the gospels forbids the monks to possess tangible assets. On 1414.

- Pope Eugenio IV

Joan of Arc, burned alive accused of witchcraft ( 1431 ).
Merenda and Matteo, two citizen, burned alive by the Inquisition to return a favour to the families of Colonna and Savelli about which they had badly spoken.
Of continual massacres in Bohemia against Ussidi (followers of Jean Hus), for the remonstrance done following the manslaughter of their boss. One of the massacres was made by admitting Ussidi to a barn in which they mirror the fire having closed the door. The fact was so commented by a catholic writer: " From their entrance, one closed doors and one set fire; and so this gang of kids, this refusal of the human race, having committed numerous offences, paid finally in flames the punishment of their contempt for the religion ".

But the worst will come when the Church should defend itself from the coming of the "Renascimento".


- Pope Sixt IV (to know the immorality of these popes, see the pages Sex and Christianity ).
In Spain shone for his cruelty the Dominican Thomas Torquemada who, by seizing the possessions of the accused persons of heresy and witchcraft, had managed to accumulate so wealth that he was frightening the Pope who obliged him to pay half of the booty. When this one arrived in a country as inquisitor, the population ran away, leaving everything to his hands.
In the impossibility to quote all the victims of Torquemada I shall limit to say that in 18 years of the inquisition there was:
800.000 Jews exiliated from Spain, with seizure of the possessions, under the risk of death if they had stayed.
10.200 burned alive.
6.860 corpses dug up to be burned on the stake following lawsuit (all ended with the seizure of the possessions) celebrated " post-mortem " (after the death).
97.000 condemned persons to the prison with eternity with seizure of the properties.
And while Torquemada acted in Spain, in Rome the inquisition lit stakes on all the places to burn the heretics whose patrimonies were automatically requisitioned for the Pope by the brotherhood of San Giovanni Decollato.

- Pope Alessandro VI

Burned alive Gerolamo Savonarola on the place of Signoria in Florence. In May 23, 1498 with two of his followers, Domenico da Pescia and Silvestro da Firenze.
Three Jews burned alive to Campo dei Fiori in Rome - January 13, 1498.
Gentile Cimeli, accused of witchcraft, burned alive in Campo dei Fiori - July 14, 1498.
Burned alive Marcello da Fiorentino on the place Saint Pierre - July 29, 1498.

- Pope Giulio II

4 women judged and executed for witchcraft to Cavalese ( Trento) - on 1505.
Diego Portoghese hung for heresy - October 14, 1606.
30 burned alive persons in Logroño (Spain) for witchcraft.
Fra Agostino Grimaldi judged and executed for heresy - August 6, 1606.
15 Roman citizens massacred by the Swiss guards for heresy - on 1513.
Orazio and Giacomo di Riffredo, judged and executed for heresy - April 30, 1513.

- Pope Leone X (The Pope who declared the nonexistence of Christ).

30 women accused of witchcraft burned alive in Bormio - on 1514.
Martino Jacopo judged and executed for heresy in Vercelli - February 18, 1517.
80 burned alive women in Valcamonica for witchcraft - on 1518.
5 burned alive heretics in Brescia - April 30, 1519.
Baglione Paolo da Perugia beheaded for heresy in Traspontina - June 4, 1520.
Fra Camillo, Fra Giulio Carino, Leonardo Cesalpini choked in prison for heresy - July 8, 1520.

- Pope Clemente VII

Anna Furabach, judged and executed for heresy - May 9, 1524.
Thousands of anapabtist Protestants bathed, beheaded, burned alive and tortured to death 1525.
A woman accused of witchcraft, burned alive in Campidoglio - September 30, 1525.
Claudio Artoidi and Lerenza di Pietro judged and executed for heresy - May 16, 1526.
Rinaldo di Colonia judged and executed for heresy - August 26, 1528.
Lorenzo di Gabriele da Parma e Tiberio di Giannantonio, tortured, judged and executed for heresy - September 9, 1528.
Burned alive Bernardino da Palestrina for heresy - November 20, 1529.
Burned alive Giovanni Milanese for heresy - November 23, 1530.

- Pope Paulus III (One of the atheistic popes who asserted the nonexistence of the Christ. Others knew as him but did not say it).

All the inhabitants of the city of Mérindol (France) killed to have embraced the faith of the evangelic Protestants. Their possessions were seized and the city remained deserted and uninhabitable - on 1540.
All the Anabaptists of the city of Munster (Germany) were massacred. Giovanni di Leida, their leader, was killed having been subjected " to a horrible torture " - April 4, 1535.
Martino Giovinin judged and executed in the prisons of Grenoble - April 26, 1536.
Francesco di Giovanni de Capocena killed for heresy - on 1538.
Ene di Ambrogio judged and executed for heresy - on 1539.
Galateo di Girolamo judged and executed in the prisons of the Inquisition for heresy - January 17, 1541.
Giandomenico dell' Aquila, heretic, burned alive - February 4, 1542.
Federico d' Abbruzzo killed for heresy. His body was carried to the torture dragged by a horse. What stayed of its body was hung on the fork - July 12, 1542.
2.740 Vaudois was massacred by the Catholics in Provence (France) - April, 1545.
Hung Girolamo Francese because Lutherian - September 27, 1546.
Baldassarre Altieri, of the English Embassy, whom the Inquisition killed in prison - on 1548.
Federico Consalvo, heretic, judged and executed - May 25, 1549.
Annibale di Lattanzio judged and executed for heresy - May 25, 1549.

- Pope Giulio III

Fanino Faenza hung and burned for heresy - February 18, 1550.
Domenico della Casa Bianca, Lutherian. Beheaded. February 20, 1550.
Geronimo Geril Francese, hung for heresy and then quartered - March 20, 1550.
Giovanni Buzio and Giovanni Teodori, hung and burned for heresy - September 4, 1553.
Francesco Gamba, beheaded and burned for heresy - July 21, 1554.
Giovanni Moglio and Tisserando da Perugina, Lutherian. Hung and burned - September 5, 1554.

- Pope Paulus IV

Institution of the Ghetto of Rome with even more austere limitations against the Jews of the ghetto of Venice.
Cola Francesco di Salerno, judged and executed for heresy - June 14, 1555.
Bartolomeo Hector, burned alive to have sold two Bibles - June 20, 1555.
Golla Elia and Paolo Rappi Protestant, burned alive in Turin - June 22, 1555.
Vernon Giovanni and Labori Antonio, evangelists, burned alive - August 28, 1555.
Stefano di Girolamo, judged and executed for heresy - June 11, 1556.
Giulio Napolitano, burned alive for heresy - March 6, 1556.
Ambrogio de Cavoli, hung and burned for heresy - June 15, 1556.
Don Pompeo dei Monti, burned alive for heresy - July 4, 1556.
Pomponio Angerio, burned alive for heresy - August 19, 1556.
Nicola Sartonio, Lutherian, burned alive - May 13, 1557.
Jeronimo da Bergamo, Alessandra Fiorentina and Madonna Caterina, hung and burned for homosexuality - December 22, 1557.
Fra Gioffredo Varaglia, Franciscan, burned alive for heresy - March 25, 1558.
Gisberto di Milanuccio, heretic, burned alive - June 15, 1558.
Francesco Cartone, heretic, burned alive - August 3, 1558.
14 Protestants burned alive in Seville, in Spain - on 1559.
15 Protestants burned alive in Valladolid, in Spain - on 1559.
Gabriello di Thomaien, burned alive for homosexuality - February 8, 1559.
Burned alive Antonio di Colella for heresy - February 8, 1559.
Leonardo da Meola and Giovanni Antonio del Bò, hung and burned for heresy - February 8, 1559.
13 heretics plus one German of Augsburg, accused of homosexuality, burned alive - February 17, 1559.
Antonio Gesualdi, Lutherian, burned alive for heresy - March 16, 1559.
Ferrante Bisantino, heretic, killed in the prisons of the Holy Inquisition - on 1559.

- Pope Pio IV

The monks of Perosa ( Pinerolo's ) abbey enjoyed burning alive on slow fire an evangelic priest with his believers - December, 1559.
Massacre of Vaudois in Calabria made by delinquents' bands engaged by the Holy Mother Church (men, women, ancient as children horribly tortured before being killed on direct order of the Pope) - December, 1559.
" In Santo-Xisto, in Guardia, in Montalto and in Sant' Agata incredible things happened: knifed, quartered, burned people and horribly mutilated. Rests of human fragments were hung on the doors of houses as example for people. Those who ran away on mountains were besieged until they die of hunger. Numerous women and children were reduced to slavery ". On 1559 (Of " The Maurizio Marchetti's holy Inquisition. Ed. Fiaccola).
4.000 Vaudois massacred by order of the Holy Mother Church - on 1560.
Giulio Ghirlanda, Baudo Lupettino, Marcello Spinola, Nicola Bucello, Antonio Rietto, Francesco Sega, persons condemned to death because surprised while they made a religious office in a private house with a defrocked priest who officiated - 1560.
Giacomo Bonello, burned alive because evangelist - February 18, 1560.
Mermetto Savoiardo, heretic, burned alive - August 13, 1560.
Dionigi di Cola, heretic, burned alive - August 13, 1560.
Aloisio Pasquale, evangelist, hung and burned - September 8, 1560.
Gian Pascali di Cuneo, burned alive for heresy - September 15, 1560.
Stefano Negrone, heretic, let starve in the prisons of the Holy Inquisition - September 15, 1560.
Stefano Morello, heretic, hung and burned - September 25, 1560.
Bernardino Conte, burned alive for heresy - on 1560.
300 persons in Oppenau, 63 women in Wiesensteig and 54 in Obermachtal in Germany, burned alive for witchcraft - on 1562.
Macario, bishop of Macedonia, heretical, burned alive - June 10, 1563.
Cornelio di Olanda, heretic, hung and burned - January 23, 1563.
Francesco Cipriotto, hung and burned for heresy - September 4, 1564.
Giulio Cesare Vanini, pantheist, burned alive, his tongue torn away from him.
Giulio di Grifone, heretic, judged and executed.

- Pope Pio V (raised by the church to the honors of altars)

With " papal bolla " one decides in Rome on the lock of all the synagogues.
Muzio della Torella, heretic, judged and executed - March 1, 1566.
Giulio Napolitano, heretic, burned alive - March 6, 1566.
Don Pompeo dei Monti, beheaded for heresy - July 3, 1566.
Curzio di Cave, Franciscan, beheaded for heresy - July 9, 1566.
17.000 (seventeen - thousand) Protestants massacred in Flanders by Spanish Catholics.
Burned Giorgio Olivetto, Lutherian - January 27, 1567.
Domenico Zocchi, Jew, hung and burned on the Place Giudia in the Ghetto of Rome - February 1, 1567.
Girolamo Landi, hung and burned for heresy - February 25, 1567.
Pietro Carnasecchi, hung and burned for heresy - February 25, 1567.
Giulio Maresco, beheaded and burned for heresy - September 30, 1567.
Paolo and Matteo, immured alive for heresy - September 30, 1567.
Ottaviano Fioravanti, immured alive for heresy - September 30, 1567.
Giovannino Guastavillani, heretic, immured alive - September 30, 1567.
Geronimo del Puzo, immured alive for heresy - September 30, 1567.
Gerolamo Donato with the other colleagues of the order of the Humbled, are judged and executed on order of Carlo Borromeo (saint), bishop of Milan, after long hours of tortures, for heresy - August 2, 1570.
Macario Giulio da Cetona, beheaded and burned for heresy - October 1, 1567.
Lorenzo da Mugnano, hung and burned for heresy - May 10, 1568.
Matteo d' Ippolito, hung and burned for heresy - May 10, 1568.
Francesco Stanga, hung and burned for heresy - May 10, 1568.
Donato Matteo Minoli, dies from inanition in prisons, his bones broken, his feet burnt under torture - May 27, 1568.
Francesco Castellani, heretic, hung - December 6, 1568.
Pietro Gelosi, heretic, hung and burned - December 6, 1568.
Marcantonio Verotti, heretic, hung and burned - December 6, 1568.
Luca di Faenza, heretic, burned alive - February 28, 1568.
Borghesi Filippo, beheaded and burned for heresy - May 2, 1569.
Giovanni dei Blasi, hung and burned for heresy - May 2, 1569.
Camillo Ragnolo, hung and burned for heresy - May 25, 1569.
Fra Cellario Francesco, hung and burned for heresy - May 25, 1569.
Bartolomeo Bartoccio, burned alive for heresy - May 25, 1569.
Guido Zanetti, immured living for heresy - May 27, 1569.
Filippo Porroni, Lutherian, hung heretic - February 11, 1570.
Gian Matteo di Giulianello, judged and executed for heresy - February 25, 1570.
Nicolò Franco, hung to have laughed at the Pope with papers. Hung - March 11, 1570.
Giovanni di Pietro, heretic, hung and burned - May 13, 1570.
Aolio Paliero, heretic, hung and burned expressly on desire of the Pope Pio V (saint) - July 3, 1570.
Fra Arnaldo di Santo Zeno, heretic, burned alive - November 4, 1570.
Don Girolamo di Pesaro, Giovanni Antonio di Jesi and Pietro Paolo di Maranzano, judged and executed for heresy - October 6, 1571.
Francesco Gelatieri, stabbed to death by sicarians of the pontiff because heretic - January 5, 1572.
Madonna Dianora of Montpelier, heretical, hung and burned - February 9, 1572.
Madonna Pellegrina of Valencia, heretical, hung and burned - February 9, 1572.
Madonna Girolama Guanziana, heretic, hung and burned - February 9, 1572.
Madonna Isabella of Montpelier, heretical, hung and burned - February 9, 1572.
Domenico della Xenia, heretic, hung and burned - February 9, 1572.
Teofilo Penarelli, heretic, hung and burned - February 22, 1572.
Alessandro di Giulio, heretic, hung and burned.

- Pope Gregorio XIII

Alessandro di Giulio, hung and burned for heresy - March 15, 1572.
Giovanni di Giovan Battista, hung and burned because heretic - March 15, 1572.
Girolamo Pellegrino, hung and burned for heresy - July 19, 1572.
10.000 (ten thousand) heretics massacred in France for order of the Pope (massacre of the Huguenots - Night of Saint Barthelemy) - August 24, 1572.
500 heretics massacred in Croatia on order of the catholic bishop Juraj Draskovic - on 1573.
Nicolò Colonici hung and burned heretical .
Giovanni Francesco Ghisleri, choked in the prisons of the Inquisition - October 25, 1574.
Alessandro di Giacomo, burned alive- November 19, 1574.
Benedetto Thomaria, burned alive heretic - May 12, 1574.
Don Antonio Nolfo, judged and executed heretic - July 29, 1578.
Giovanni Battista di Tigoni, judged and executed heretic - July 29, 1578.
Baldassarre di Nicolò, heretical hung and burned - August 13, 1578.
Antonio Valies de la Malta, hung and burned heretic - August 13, 1578.
Francesco di Giovanni Martino, hung and burned heretic - August 13, 1578.
Bernardino di Alfar, hung and burned heretic - August 13, 1578.
Alfonso di Poglis, hung and burned heretic - August 13, 1578.
Marco di Giovanni Pinto, hung and burned heretic - August 13, 1578.
Girolamo di Giovanni de Tolède, hung and burned heretic - August 13, 1578.
Gasparre di Martino, hung and burned heretic - August 13, 1578
Fra Clemente Sapone, hung and burned heretic - November 29, 1578.
Pompeo Loiani, hung and burned heretic - June 12, 1579.
Cosimo Tranconi, hung and burned heretic - June 12, 1579.
222 ( two - hundred and twenty two) Jews burned on the stake on order of the Holy Inquisition - on 1558.
Salomon, Jew, hung to have refused the baptism - March 13, 1580.
An English, burned alive to have offended a priest - August 2, 1581.
Diego Lopez, burned alive for heresy - February 18, 1583.
Domenico Danzarelli, hung and burned for heresy - February 18, 1583.
Prospero di Barberia, hung and burned heretic - February 18, 1583.
Gabriello Henriquez, burned alive for heresy - February 18, 1583.
Borro of Arezzo, burned alive for heresy - February 7, 1583.
Ludovico Moro, burned alive heretic - July 10, 1583.
Fra Camillo Lomaccio, Fra Giulio Carino, Leonardo di Andrea choked in Tor Nona's prisons for heresy - July 23, 1583.
Lorenzo Perna, arrested on order of the cardinal Savelli for heresy, one ignores its end - June 16, 1584.
< < Signora di Bellegard > >, arrested for heresy, one ignores her end - October, 1584.
Giacomo Paleologo, beheaded and burned - March 22, 1585.
The brothers Missori beheaded to have expressed the freedom of press. The heads were exposed in public - March 22, 1585.
(Gregorio's XIII body, this disgusting executioner, is honored and revered by the Catholics in its monumental grave in Saint Pierre of Rome).

- Pope six V

This Pope made hang a Spanish because he had killed with a stick a Swiss soldier who had damaged him with a halberd.
Having pushed away(repelled) the demand to replace the fork by the axe, Six V attended cheerfully the executions being carried(worn) to eat because " these acts of justice looked to him(her) of the appetite ". After the execution of a judgment he says: " God is blessed for the big appetite with which I ate ".
Pietro Benato, burned alive for heresy - April 26, 1585.
Pomponio Rustici, Gasparre Ravelli, Antonio Nantrò, Fra Giovanni Bellinelli, hung and burned for heresy - August 5, 1587.
Vittorio, Saluzzo's count, judged and executed for heresy - December 9, 1589.
Valerio Marliano, hung and burned heretic - February 16, 1590.
Don Domenico Bravo, beheaded for heresy - March 30, 1590.
Fra Lorenzo dell' Aglio, hung and burned - April 13, 1590.

- Pope Gregorio XIV

Fra Andrea Forzati, Fra Flaminio Fabrizi, Fra Francesco Serafini, hung and burned - February 6, 1591.
Giovanni Battista Corobinacci, Giovanni Antonio de Manno Rosario, Alexandro d' Arcangelo, Fulvio Luparino, Francesco de Alexandro, judged and executed - June, 1590.
Giovanni Angelo Fullo, Gi ò Carlo di Luna, Decio Panella, Domenico Brailo, Antonio Costa, Fra Giovanni Battista Grosso, Abate Volpino, with the other followers of Fra Girolamo da Milano, arrested by the Holy Inquisition, one ignores what was their end, 1590.
(All this in inly one year of Holy Pontificate!)

- Pope Clemente VIII

Giordano Bruno, burned alive for heresy - February 17, 1600.
Four women and an old man burned alive for heresy - February 16, 1600.
Francesco Gambonelli, burned alive heretic - February 17, 1594.
Marcantonio Valena and another Lutherian, burned alive - August, 1594.
Graziani Agostini, hung and burned heretic - on 1596.
Prestini Menandro, - heretic hung and burned on 1596.
Achille della Regina, one ignores the end - June, 1597.
Cesare di Giuliano, hung and burned heretic - on 1597.
Damiano di Francesco, hung and burned heretic - on 1597.
Baldo di Francesco, hung and burned for heresy - on 1957.
Of Magistri Giovanni Angelo, hung and burned heretic - on 1597.
Don Ottavio Scipione, heretic, beheaded and burned - on 1597.
Giovanni Antonio da Verona e Fra Celestino, burned alive heretics - September 16, 1599.
Fra Cierrente Mancini and Don Galeazzo Porta beheaded for heresy - November 9, 1599.
Maurizio Rinaldi, burned alive heretic - February 23, 1600.
Francesco Moreno, hung and burned heretic - June 9, 1600.
Nunzio Servandio, Jew, hung - June 25, 1600.
Bartolomeo Coppino, burned alive Lutherian - April 7, 1601.
Tommaso Caraffa e Onorio Costanzo, heretics, beheaded and burned - May 10, 1601.

- Pope Paulus V

Giovanni Pietro di Tunisi, hung and burned - on 1607
Giuseppe Teodoro, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Felice d' Ottavio, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Rossi Francesco, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Antonio di Jacopo, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Fortunato Aniello, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Vincenti Pietro, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Umberto Marcantonio, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Fra Manfredi Fulgenzio, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Lucarelli Battista, hung and burned heretic - on 1609.
Emilio di Valerio, Jew, hung and burned - on 1610.
Don Domenico di Giovanni, for his conversion to judaism, hung - on 1611.
Giovanni Milo, hung Lutherian - March, 1611.
Giovanni Mancini, to have celebrated the mass as defrocked, hung and burned - October 22, 1611.
Jacopo de Elia, Jew, hung and burned - January 22, 1616.
Francesco Maria Sagni, hung and burned heretic - July 1, 1616.
A necromancien, settled and then burned alive for witchcraft - on 1617.
Lucilio Vanini, burned alive to have doubted of the existence of god - February 17, 1618.
Thousands of heretics massacred by the Catholics in Grigioni in Valtellina - on 1620.
(The Church, convinced that there are heretic religious tendencies in Valtellina, still maintains the region under control by means of " Missione rezia ", confided to the Capuchin friars, who depend directly on " Propaganda Fidei &quotEye-wink and the Holy Father Jean-Paulus II asks for forgiveness!!!

- Pope Urbano VIII

Galileo Galilei, tortured and condemned to the prison to perpetuity as heretic to have asserted that the earth turns around the Sun - on 1633.
Ferrari Ambrogio, hung as heretic - on 1624.
Donna Anna Sobrero, died from the bubonic plague in prison where she had been condemned to perpetuity - on 1627 (during the months which followed, all those who passed by this prison died from plague).
Fra Serafino, heretic, hung and burned - on 1634.
Giacinto Centini, beheaded to have offended the papal sovereign power - on 1635.
Fra Diego Giavaloni, heretic, hung and burned - on 1635.
Alverez Ferdinando, burned alive to have been converted to the judaism - March 19, 1640.
Policarpo Angelo, hung and burned to have celebrated the mass as defrocked - May 19, 1642.
Ferrante Pallavicino, heretic, hung and burned - on 1644.
Fra Camillo d' Angelo, Ludovico Domenico, Simone Cossio, Domenico da Sterlignano, judged and executed for heresy - on 1644.

- Pope Innocenzo X

Brugnarello Giuseppe and Claudio Borgegnone, hung and burned to have falsified certain apostolic letters - on 1652. (This Pope applied especially prison sentences to perpetuity because these years were Holy years &quotEye-wink.

- Pope Alexandre II

Fello Giovanni, priest, beheaded for heresy - on 1657.
1.712 Vaudois massacred by the Catholics in the Alpine Valleys - on 1655.

-Pope Innocenzo XI (Sanctified)

20 Jews condemned to the stake - on 1680.
Vincenzo Scatolari, to have exercised the journalistic profession without the license of the Holy Mother Church - August 2, 1685.
2.000 ( two thousand) Vaudois massacred by the Catholics in the alpine valleys on direct order of the Pope - May, 1686.
24 Protestants killed by the Catholics in Pressov, Slovakia - on 1687.

- Pope Innocenzo XII

Martino Alessandro, died in prison under the torture - May 3, 1690.
37 burned alive Jews - on 1691 (no need to look farther for the causes of the anti-semitism!).
Antonio Bevilacqua and Carlo Maria Campana, Capuchin friars, beheaded because followers of Molinos's Quietism - March 26, 1695.

- Pope Clemente XI

Filippo Rivarola, carried to the scaffold in stretcher because of the tortures he received, beheaded - August 4, 1708.
Spallaccini Domenico, hung and burned to have blasphemed because of a blow of halberd which he received from a nurse of the pope - July 28, 1711.
Gaetano Volpini, beheaded to have written a poetry against the Pope - February 3, 1720.

- Pope Clemente XII

This Pope, by restoring the " mazzolatura " (break of bones by blows with a stick), showed himself one of the most cynical procurers of the art of the torture.
Pietro Giarinone, philosopher and historian, died under the torture to have supported the ascendancy of king on curie steelyard - March 24, 1736.
Enrico Trivelli, beheaded to have written the sentences of revolt against the Pope - February 23, 1737.
The numerous victims of this Pope remained unknown because he preferred to kill under the torture in the prisons of the Inquisition that of "upholder of the law" on squares.

EUROPE BEGINS TO FEEL BENEFICIAL EFFECT OF THE CENTURY OF THE LIGHTS. IT SHOWS ITSELF AND LIMITS THE ARROGANCE OF THE CHURCH WHICH REDUCES SO ITS RELIGIOUS PURSUITS BY TURNING TO POLITICAL OFFENCES, CRIMES OF COMMON LAW OR THE CRIMES CONCERNING THE INTERNAL ECCLESIASTICAL RULES . WHAT COUNTS FOR IT BEFORE ANY THING IS TO IMPOSE ITS POWER BY THE TERROR.

- Pope Clemente XIII

Tommaso Crudeli, condemned to perpetuity for masonry - August 2, 1740.
Giuseppe Morelli, hung to have celebrated the Eucharist as defrocked - August 22, 1761.
Carlo Sala, heretic, judged and executed - September 25, 1765. (Carlo Sala is the last martyr killed by the Church for heresy).
The massacres, which have no more religious character, continued against the political conspirators, the journalists and all the progressive which intended to knock down the immorality and the religious obscurantism by an armed revolution.
And the atrocities were as in the past: beheadings, tortures with fracture of bones ( mazzolature ), hangings and ill-treatment, of which often the quartering of the accused persons.
To be able to maintain the terror, even the least grave offences as a simple theft, were punished by the death.

- Pope Pio VI

During his four years of pontificate there were only five capital executions offences of common law, even if the fight became intensified piercingly against the Jews who were obliged, among the numerous humiliations and the threats which they underwent, to dress in yellow colour to be publicly offended.

- Pope Pio VII

Gregorio Silvestri, hung for political plot - January 18, 1800.
Ottavio Cappello, hung because revolutionary patriot - January 29, 1800.
Giovanni Battista Genovesi, quartered patriot and burnt. The head was shown in public - February 7, 1800.
Teodoro Cacciona, hung and quartered for the theft of an ecclesiastical dress - February 9, 1801.
Paolo Salvati, hung and quartered to have stolen a mail of the Pope - December 11, 1805.
Bernardo Fortuna, hung and quartered for the theft of the reparations of a French mail (courier) - April 22, 1806.
Tommaso Rotilesi, hung to have hurt (damaged) a French officer.
161 capital executions for offences of common law during the 15 years of the pontificate of this Vice-God on Earth which took peaceful and devout Pio's name (the pious).

- Pope Leone XII

Leonida Montanari, beheaded to have offended publicly the Pope - November 23, 1825.
Angelo Targhini, beheaded to have hurt a spy of the pope - November 23, 1825.
Luigi Zanoli, beheaded to have killed a henchman of the Pope - May 13, 1828.
Angelo Ortolani, hung to have killed a nurse of the Pope - May 13, 1828.
Gaetano Montanari, quartered for attempt of murder of the papal emissary Rivolta - on 1828.
Gaetano Rambelli, hung to have hurt a papal emissary - on 1828.
The capital executions, besides those quoted above, were 29 and always for offences of common law..

- Pope Pio VIII

In one year of Pontificate he made 13 major condemnations for offences of common law.

- Pope Gregorio XVI

He imposed an absolute prohibition of any oral or written freedom of expression which would not follow the dictamens of the Holy Mother Church. Under the gravest threats he obliged the Jews to exercise no activity outside of the Ghetto.
Giuseppe Balzani, beheaded for insults to the Pope - May 14, 1833.
Luigi Scopigno, beheaded for the theft of sacred objects - July 21, 1840.
Pietro Rossi, beheaded for a harmless theft in January 9, 1844.
Luigi Muzi, beheaded for a small theft in January 19, 1844.
Giovanni Battista Rossi, beheaded for a small theft - August 3, 1944
Besides the quoted executions, there was under the pontificate of this Holy Father, 110 other death sentences for common offences. The description of the numerous beheaded, hung and quartered by the Inquisition under Gregorio XI is put back in a book written by Mastro Titta.

- Pope Pio IX (sanctified by Jean Paulus II, called "cubic meter" of shit by Garibaldi).

Romolo Salvatori, beheaded to have recorded in Garibaldiens Archibishop of Anagni - September 10, 1851.
Gustavo Paolo Rambelli, Gustavo Marloni, Ignazio Mancini, beheaded to have killed three priests - January 24, 1854.
Antonio de Felici, beheaded to have infringed to the life of the Cardinal Antonelli.
To understand the criminalty of this Pope (saint), it is enough to remind that when the patriots of the Italian unification entered the papal prisons to free dozens prisoners which rotted there, chained since a so long period as they had lost the sight and the usage of their members, they found in these underground passages the heaps of skeletons and corpses in decomposition in a mixture of dresses of monks and sisters, civil clothes of men and women, military uniforms and shoes, as when were freed the Nazi fields of extermination. One found as well toys of children, death with their parents there.

 

- Brian Sapient


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Alex Leibowitz (not verified)
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Good Lord!

 What seems to happen is this: someone will claim he's an agnostic, not an atheist. Then some bright comes along and says, "An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God. Agnostics don't believe in God. Therefore agnostics are atheists." No! An atheist is someone who believes there is no god. Not believing in God does not imply believing there is no God. By that logic, I would, because I don't believe the number of stars in the sky is even, believe that the number of stars in the sky is not even -- i.e. (I suppose) odd. But I don't believe that the number of stars in the sky is even and I don't believe that the number of stars in the sky is not even. I'm suspending judgment.
Now you can also say that agnosticism is a claim about knowledge, whereas atheism is a claim about belief.  But then agnosticism and atheism are compatible, since of course you can believe something and not know it's true.  The more interesting -- the richer position -- is that according to which you *shouldn't* believe there is no god and you *shouldn't* believe there is.  (This is part of what I'm claiming -- there's nothing contradictory about not believing that p and not believing that not p.  The whole discussion about double-negation is a red-herring.  The contradictory of not believing that p is believing that p, not believing that not-p.)  If you take this position, then you have some beef with the atheist, since the atheist believes something he shouldn't.  You also have some beef with the theist, since the theist believes something he shouldn't.   Now who cares what you *call* the position in the end?  It's certainly a possible position.

 


jeremy watts (not verified)
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theism

I personally view myself to be agnostic. My question is that is it not ignorant to completely renounce the idea of a theism or god figure without the very proof you ask a person of religion to have. I mean there isnt proof of alien beings yet we do believe that our planet isnt the only one the have life. Also there seem to be a  a "pattern" to life and cercumstances although they change constantly. Cercumstances seem to flow as if usehered by something. Creationalism has many windows. I personally see that the continous cercumstances, the ablilty to create in us and everything else itself is just that......"creation". A reflection of god because we are made in his image. This may be a load of crap to some but it my opinion. Yet through all this i still think is hard to believe in god or whatever as most do. Since i belive this does this mean i have belief? because i feel as if i dont yet i cherish cercumstance asif it were the true god.

 


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Alex clearly never bothered

Alex clearly never bothered reading the essay.

Jeremey, if you believe in a god, you're a theist. Otherwise you're an atheist. You can add agnostic or gnostic or even ignostic, but however you clarify it, you're still an atheist if you don't hold the belief there is a god.

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...

 He is not claiming there is no God.

Claiming that you don't know whether there is a God does not mean the same as believing there is no God.

Agnostics choose not to decide either A or B. 

Atheism is the complete denial of God's existence. Agnosticism denies nothing.

 

Summary: agnosticism has no denial of either A or B. 

 

I love how the CAPTCHA word on an atheist forum is "aricuio Lord,."


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Can I be arsed?

Crow93 wrote:

 He is not claiming there is no God.

Claiming that you don't know whether there is a God does not mean the same as believing there is no God.

Agnostics choose not to decide either A or B. 

Atheism is the complete denial of God's existence. Agnosticism denies nothing.

 

Summary: agnosticism has no denial of either A or B. 

 

I love how the CAPTCHA word on an atheist forum is "aricuio Lord,."

OK then.

Agnostic = don't know.

Atheist = don't believe.


Vastet
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Crow93 wrote: He is not

Crow93 wrote:

 He is not claiming there is no God.

Claiming that you don't know whether there is a God does not mean the same as believing there is no God.

Agnostics choose not to decide either A or B. 

Atheism is the complete denial of God's existence. Agnosticism denies nothing.

 

Summary: agnosticism has no denial of either A or B. 

 

I love how the CAPTCHA word on an atheist forum is "aricuio Lord,."

You fail basic English. Sorry.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Crow93 wrote: He is not

Crow93 wrote:

 He is not claiming there is no God.

Claiming that you don't know whether there is a God does not mean the same as believing there is no God.

Agnostics choose not to decide either A or B. 

Atheism is the complete denial of God's existence. Agnosticism denies nothing.

 

Summary: agnosticism has no denial of either A or B. 

 

I love how the CAPTCHA word on an atheist forum is "aricuio Lord,."

 

You're not late to the party at all.  How about reading some of the follow up posts?  We have a special article on the site that will help you understand why you are not correct about this one: Am I Agnostic or Atheist?

 

- Brian Sapient


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Search out my posts

Fire Legion wrote:

I am an agnostic not an atheist. From your comments and video, you clearly lack an understanding of what an agnostic is. Just as I don't believe there is a God, I don't believe there isn't a God either. Here's a definition of what an atheist is, as is roughly used by most English dictionaries:

"A person who positively believes that no God(s) or Goddess(es) exists" See a contradiction between my beliefs and atheism? Of course.

And I object to having my views summed up as the 'I dunno' viewpoint. I have seen no proof for the existence or non-existence of a God, so I rationally reasoned to be an agnostic.

And you'll find God/yourself. A proper interpretation of The book/bible has arrived.  Smiling

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I know this is an old topic.

 But I had some thoughts on the issue that I would like to add.

I think that a lot of this boils down to the use of what George Carlin called "soft language".

People try to use neutral words in order to ride the fence and be able to bullshit one way or the other. It's politics and semantics.

For example, Dave Chappelle said in his special "For What It's Worth" something to the effect of "I don't think Michael Jackson did it.. wait, I don't want to say he didn't do it. That's too strong of a phrase. Let's just say that I'm reserving judgement until all of the facts are presented."

Now, I call this bullshit and soft language and this is why - In this example, we're talking about court proceedings. The law says that a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Therefore, it is supposed to be believed by everybody involved in the proceedings that the person is innocent unless the prosecution can provide irrefutable evidence that the person is indeed guilty, or alternatively not innocent.

Therefore, if a person is being asked if he believes the person is guilty or not, the proper answer is that I believe he is innocent, or disbelieve that he is guilty, but if I am presented with evidence to the contrary, then I would have no logical choice but to believe that the person is guilty or not innocent.

Saying "I'm reserving judgement", "I don't know", or "I'm undecided" is use of soft language to appear to not be taking a stance one way or the other in order to be able to bullshit yourself into one stance or the other if the need arises. It's a bullshit way of trying to be neutral in a situation where no neutrality actually exists. Once again, it's pure politics and semantics.

This same principal applies to agnosticism. A person claims they are an "agnostic" because they don't disbelieve there is a god, but they don't believe that there is a god either. This is bullshit, trying to apply a neutrality where none exists. To quote Rush, "If you choose not to decide, you have still made a choice."

If you believe that that God could exist, but are reserving judgement pending irrefutable evidence, this literally means that you do not believe that God exists, but if presented with irrefutable evidence then you would have no logical choice but to believe that God does in fact exists.

Atheism is literally a non-belief in God. It does not mean that one absolutely disbelieve in God even if presented with irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

This is where people screw up. They presuppose that one cannot be an Atheist unless they have a devout, unwaverable dis-belief in God that cannot be changed even when presented with evidence to the contrary.

Also, some have argued that their need to be two terms for the two types of atheist, so the terms would be atheist and agnostic, but as stated here before, this premise is false because there are already two terms - Agnostic and Gnostic.

One who is an Agnostic Atheist believes there is no God, but does not believe to have absolute knowledge or proof that there is no God.

A Gnostic Atheist would believe there is no God, and claim to have knowledge or proof that there is no God.

This is the same premise as Brian's statement that you have weak Atheists and strong Atheists.

[edit]

I just wanted to add that anybody saying "not believing and disbelieving are two different things" are full of shit. They're just redundant terms that mean the same thing. If one disbelieves something, then they do not believe that something.

Also saying that "I don't believe in god, but I don't disbelieve in god", they are also being redundant.

People love to use redundant words as prove differences that don't actually exist.

It's like saying "I don't dislike the color yellow, I just don't like it either."

You're assuming that "dislike" implies some sort of malice or other connotation that isn't there. If you dislike it, that literally means that you do not like it. Saying both is redundant.

I'll leave you with a bit of philosophy to chew on - Did you know that the definition of "semantics" is semantics? 

"Now this ... is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination." - Buddha, the 2nd Noble Truth


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Old Seer wrote:And you'll

Old Seer wrote:

And you'll find God/yourself. A proper interpretation of The book/bible has arrived.  Smiling

    Oooo, so mysterious and cryptic !  

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

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