Christian vultures feed off Steve Irwin

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Christian vultures feed off Steve Irwin

Quote:
...Sadly, Steve Irwin wasn’t a creationist. He mentioned evolution and the concept of millions of years many times in his television programs. For example, he once told Larry King on CNN’s Larry King Live cable program that crocodiles had been around for 200 million years, and if you weren’t careful they would kill you....

Full article here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2006/0904irwin.asp

Disgusting. Searching the rest of their site comes up with other gems such as:

Quote:
As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years....

Evolutionists declare that no man ever lived alongside dinosaurs. The Bible, however, makes it plain that dinosaurs and people must have lived together. Actually, as we will soon see, there is a lot of evidence for this.

I find it embarrassing that members of my own species are actually this fucking stupid.


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evilrabbit wrote: I find it

evilrabbit wrote:

I find it embarrassing that members of my own species are actually this fucking stupid.

Me too.

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I think a more accurate word

I think a more accurate word would be "deluded". They want to believe in their fairy tales and science shoots holes through it if one accepts evolution, plate tectonics, cosmology and other bodies of knowledge, The only to stay in neverland is to believe that "God said/did it, end of discussion".

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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i find it maddening that the

i find it maddening that the only way for us to classify barf of idiocy is as "unbelievable".....yet it obviously isn't.....there are so many that do believe it.....

Fear is the mindkiller.


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I'm going to go ahead and

I'm going to go ahead and send this message. I find it very humorous that an address is required to send a message to them as an act of 'good faith'. LOL.

Dear Mr. Ham,
I find it morally reprehensible that you would capitalize upon the death of Steve Irwin to spout your rhetoric concerning your brand of christianity. Many of my friends and I are outraged that it seems you would so callously incorporate his name into a sermon in order to increase the web traffic to your site and spread your ideological beliefs. The fact that you also mentioned the World Trade Center in the same article could also attest to the aforementioned theory concerning your motivations for publishing of this sermon under the guise of real journalism.
I should probably also offer a ‘Thank You’ since your example of this unethical behavior will give me evidence to use when people ask me my reasons for my earlier assertion regarding this deplorable behavior.

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Idiots! Just like them to

Idiots! Just like them to turn everything into a creation/evoultion debate.


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I wrote that too quickly. I

I wrote that too quickly. I need to take my time more often.

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becky
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heres a question i have. i'm

heres a question i have. i'm wondering why it is even so important to you to prove christianity wrong. lets just say for a minute that it is false. so what? who's it hurting? the believers certainly aren't being hurt by it. if anything it is making us better people. it's not like being a believer means we are going to go to hell when we die. so who's it hurting? why fight it? you can make people aware, but why call them stupid. why downgrade them when its just how they choose to live?

finally... lets just say christianity is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

I believe in Jesus. He is my God and my King. I will stand for Him for my entire life, with my life.


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becky wrote:who's it

becky wrote:
who's it hurting?

Have you heard of www.godhatesfags.com? They use christianity as an excuse to pour suffering on the families of AIDs victims, victims of fag-bashings, and soldiers killed in Iraq.

What about Bloody Mary (Mary I of England)? You heard of her? She used Catholicism as an excuse to burn 283 Protestants at the stake. Can you honestly say that they "weren't being hurt by it"?

What about George Bush? In keeping with christian tradition, he has used the "God told me to" excuse to destroy other people's countries, and kill thousands of people.

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the believers certainly aren't being hurt by it.

Killing/dying for a myth. Nope, not being hurt at all.
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if anything it is making us better people.

Have you actually read the Bible? Clearly not. If you knew anything about christianity, you would realise that it encourages you to be racist, sexist, homophobic, and generally just completely intolerant of everything and everyone that is different to you. I suggest you read it sometime, because if you truely believe it, then you will realise that YOU are the one who is doomed to Hell.
Quote:

it's not like being a believer means we are going to go to hell when we die.

It's not like being a non-believer means we are going to go to hell when we die...
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so who's it hurting?

The human race.
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why fight it?

Because it spreads intolerance and hatred.
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you can make people aware, but why call them stupid.

Ok, maybe "stupid" was a bit of a harsh word to use. "Deluded" is more appropriate.
Quote:
why downgrade them when its just how they choose to live?

Why make comments on this messageboard when it's just how we choose to live?

Quote:
finally... lets just say christianity is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Islam is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Hinduism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Buddhism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Taoism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Shinto is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Judaism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Sikhism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Jainism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Oomoto is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Paganism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Urarina ayahuasca shamanism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Wotanism is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

finally... lets just say Anago is the true religion. honestly, the non believers are going to be the ones who end up losing in the end.

Quote:

what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

Freedom from living his life on a myth written by bronze age tribesmen, travelling around Israel on donkeys several thousand years ago, sitting in their tents and making up stories as to how the world has come into being.


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becky wrote:heres a question

becky wrote:
heres a question i have. i'm wondering why it is even so important to you to prove christianity wrong.

Hey Becky... I personally must be answering this question once a day now. I hope you forgive me for not answering it for you again, but instead provide some places for you to find the answer.

First: listen to our show on our myspace profile. It's free and plays automatically, it's only a half hour of your life, we directly answer your question.

Second: here are two threads where our community is already responding to a similar question to someone else.

Why give them doubt?

Why bother being actively against god.

Welcome aboard our forums, I hope you're treated kindly. If you have any problems let me know.

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Sometimes it isn't clear if

Sometimes it isn't clear if they are being dishonest or just that gullible.


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becky wrote:heres a question

becky wrote:
heres a question i have. i'm wondering why it is even so important to you to prove christianity wrong.

Why do christians think it's so important to prove christianity right...and at the expense of Steve Irwin? Instead of offering condolences or reflecting on Irwin's rich life, the person that wrote that article took the time to captilize on his death by pimping their own agenda. Pretty sick.

Either way, that article is wrong on so many different levels, not just christianity. We know the Earth is older than 6000 years. Anyone who says otherwise must be really stupid or insane.

I've always really liked Steve Irwin. I used to watch his shows a lot when I was younger and impersonated him to get my baby brother to laugh. I would wrap a stuffed boa constrictor around my neck and with my best australian accent say something along the lines of "I'm holding the most deadly snake in the world, and if it bites me I'll DIE!" He will be missed!


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I made a silly webcam video

I made a silly webcam video once where I sort of acted like him with a fake Australian accent holding one of my cats. When she yowled and hissed I was like "Oh Crikey! She is pissed!" Yeah, anyone who seriously belives the Earth is 6000 years old is a complete and utter moron. I guess those cave paintings in France were made before the Earth existed. Jawdropping!

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why prove anything wrong?

becky wrote:
why downgrade them when its just how they choose to live?

This is patently ludicrous. I had a professor once in my undergraduate studies at a bible college, who told me that one of the best things to happen to christianity ideologically was the creation and spread of postmodernism. Here is an example of what that type of lazy thinking does to people, it makes them incapable of seeing their own inner contradictions.

At no point would this becky allow child molesters get away with their thinking simply because that is how they choose to live, so clearly she isn't making the statement that choice equals justification. It is in fact the point here that she would only use this justification to undergird her own thinknig and those who believe as she does. Because notice that closely following such a statement, it is said that truly "only the non-beleivers are going to end up losing in the end", a hint of living an eternity in an infernal holocaust. It would seem that while we shouldn't "downgrade" people in this life, it is ok for god to torture people for eternity in the next one for what they believe.

Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm


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Becky I hope you decide to

Becky I hope you decide to address some of these comments. Too often we see people run away when they realize the flaws in their beliefs, people would rather sweep the problems with their beliefs under the rug so they can continue to hold them to be true.

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becky wrote:he. lets just

becky wrote:
he. lets just say for a minute that it is false. so what? who's it hurting? the believers certainly aren't being hurt by it. if anything it is making us better people. it's not like being a believer means we are going to go to hell when we die. so who's it hurting? why fight it?

I can't imagine how it would feel to have your head shoved so blatantly up your ass, that your nose and colon exchange longing glances........ we pray that you are still young enough to blossom x


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What I find strange is that

What I find strange is that Becky decided to defend her religion in this thread. I didn't really intend this thread to become a debate on Christianity, I just wanted to point out how someone was exploiting Steve Irwin's death. Does Becky think it's right for Christians to use the death of Steve Irwin as a soapbox to promote their agenda? Does she think the world is less than 6000 years old? Clearly so, otherwise she would've chosen to post somewhere else. I do hope she returns, it would be such a shame if she couldn't come up with a rational reply to any of these comments.


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exploitation

I can't imagine what objection becky could have against using emotionalism to augment her belief system. The adherents of Christianity have a long history of using such events to promote their own system from anti-semitism and the creation of "the Passion" plays (modernly adapted by mel gibson in his snuff film) to pat robertson and jerry falwell commenting on the 9/11 and its cause being homosexuality in america.

The fact remains that when you believe you have THE TRUTH on your side, morality gets left behind.

Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm


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I've never got why gays are


I've never got why gays are always blamed for everything. Why not the rapists or the drug addicts or the murderers? No, it must be the gays! How dare they wear tight t-shirts and listen to Madonna? *screams*


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gays are blamed

Generally, homosexuality is blamed these days by christians because it's the newest "great dragon" to slay or bugaboo to scare people, get them thinking of anything but their hopeless situation in the face of mega-corporations and corrupt government.

Specifically, homosexuality has been vilified for thousands of years of christian thinking due to fear. Here's where I get slightly freudian or maybe just psychoanalytic with a frommian bent. One of the basic drives of homo sapiens is reproduction, a fact I don't think anybody disagrees with. Reproduction has been construed since time was time as having some kind of role to play in social roles or power. Hence, the original matriarchical foundation of religion celebrating birth, the life cycle and woman as priestess. It wasn't until the patriarchal Jewish religion came into play that the roles were reversed and man became dominant.

Homosexuality is seen as a loss of power, of place. At a deep level in the human psyche, perpetuated by the dominance-submission thinking inherent in Christianity, is a fear of loss of power. Hence homosexuality becomes the great sin for it undercuts the divine order established of women being the bearers and men being the head of the household, the latter always penetrating (or submitting) the former.

As to listening to madonna, all christians know she's the mistress of satan, since clearly only a woman of satan would think she's capable of the same social prestige as a man. And yes, that would be me being sarcastic.

Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm


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becky wrote:heres a question

becky wrote:
heres a question i have. i'm wondering why it is even so important to you to prove christianity wrong. lets just say for a minute that it is false. so what? who's it hurting? the believers certainly aren't being hurt by it. if anything it is making us better people.

Ever hear of the Dark Ages? That's the time when christianity ruled the world.

And from the time of the fall of Rome, until the Renaissance - when people began to again value intellectual thought, not one significant discovery was made. Can you name one signficant scientist or scientific discovery from the 6th century? The 7th? 8th, 9th, 10th?

Now, how many can you name from the 20th?

In the Dark Ages, irrationalism replaced rationalism. In Rome, it was believed by many that the brain was the seat of intellect, and that the heart was just a muscle. In Greece, and later in Rome, it was held that the world was round... in fact, Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the world. People knew 1800 years ago how large the world was... but 1000 years later, they had NO IDEA.The heliocentric system was first uncovered in Greece.

But in the dark ages, irrationalism ruled, knowledge was shunned, and ignorace took over... people thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth, they believed that the heart was the center of the intellect.... where did this ignorance come from? The bible.

And even worse, diseases that were easily cured by ROMANS were uncurable for people living centuries AFTER the fall of Rome.
The Greeks and Romans invented the clinical method of science and medicine! They held that diseases were natural and curable.

Then came christianity, that shunned knowledge, actively worked against the disease model of medicine, and replaced it with demonology... now, a disease was a demon... Medical science actually went backwards, we actually LOST knowledge!

Think that isn't important?

Well, because of that, the lifespan of mankind actualy shrunk during that time. That's right, 1000 years after the fall of Rome, people were dying at an earlier age than they were prior to the fall of Rome. That's right, as time passed, things actually got worse.

If you don't think that's significant, you tell me what you think the life span will be 1000 years from now. Do you think it will shrink? Well, if it does, you can thank christianity again.

We has historical evidence that when religion controls the world, man suffers. That's why it's important to question christianity. It's important to think critically, because the alternative leads to death.

Quote:

it's not like being a believer means we are going to go to hell when we die.

It's not like being a believer means you will go to heaven. Your belief is not justification that there actually is a heaven or a hell. Belief is not knowledge.

So your reasoning here is precisely why irrational belief is dangerous - because it leads you to disregard the importance of our lives, and instead focus on an imaginary place, based on nothing but a irrational hope.

Quote:

so who's it hurting?

Humanity itself. When irrationalism rules, people die. They die of old age in their 40s. They die from simple diseases that wouldn't even keep me out of work today. One of out every 2 children die before the age of five.

People become ignorant of their own surroundings.... their lives become petty, boring, unreflective, their world becomes tiny their lives become brief. I'd rather live in Rome....

Honestly, the idea that ignorance is somehow more interesting or special than knoweldge is just ignorance talking... It's not wonder that irrationalism leads to a flat earth, - because the less you know, the smaller your world becomes.

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why fight it?

Because I value human life, the lives of strangers, my family, my daugther, and the family she has. I want her children to live long, healthy lives. I don't want to see half of her children die before they reach the age of five. I don't want to see them suffer from diseases that a ROMAN could have cured 2500 years ago.

I don't want to see rational thought thrown away so that people like you can cling to your soothing delusions.

I also value knowledge - reasoning, and critical thinking. You're typing away on a computer that came about, not through prayer, but through reasoning.

Quote:

finally... lets just say christianity is the true religion.

No, let's not just say it is true! Let's not just assume it! Instead, let's try to justify our beliefs. Let's try to reason things out, not just start out assuming whateve we want to believe, and the argue from the dire consequences that supposedly follow from the unjustified belief.

Let's reason instead.

Quote:

what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

What does it profit a man to throw away his life, and the lives of others, for an imaginary 'soul' that he has no sane reason to believe even exists in the first place?

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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sorry it took so long. i

sorry it took so long. i didnt check back here until now. first of all i completely disagree with anyone using anybody's death to further their own agenda. i don't believe that is respectful or right in anyway way whatsoever.

let me just give this thought...

there are those out there who say they do things because they are christians. They use christianity as an excuse for what they do. thats what they did in the crusades. But if you read the bible, and then you look at what they do, they are clearly not following the bible at all. So basically what i'm trying to say is this, people who use christianity as an excuse to harm other people probably are not really christians.

But when you go look at the christians who do follow the bible, you will see that they just want to live their lives for God. It brings fullness of joy. It brings peace. But more than that it brings glory to the father. We don't want to live for ourselves and for our fleshly desires. We choose to live for eternity. And that's ok. I personally don't find any unhappiness in living this way.

Im not really set out to prove you guys wrong. I just want to defend my beliefs. If someone is attacking, I will defend. I wont go trying to prove you wrong though. I respect your beiefs and thats fine. Thats your choice.

What have you read in the bible that encourages christians to be homophobic, sexist and racist?

It does speak out against being homosexual, but it never says to be afraid of them or to hate them.

And where did you read anything about the other two?

I believe in Jesus. He is my God and my King. I will stand for Him for my entire life, with my life.


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becky wrote: there are those

becky wrote:

there are those out there who say they do things because they are christians. They use christianity as an excuse for what they do. thats what they did in the crusades. But if you read the bible, and then you look at what they do, they are clearly not following the bible at all.

There are those (MANY CHRISTIANS) who would say it's you who isn't following the bible. The bible has just as many attrocities and negatives as it does positives, if not more.

Quote:
But when you go look at the christians who do follow the bible, you will see that they just want to live their lives for God.

The guy who bombs an abortion clinic for Jesus is (in his mind) living his life for God more than you are. Why do you get to say who's right?

I see both of you as wrong.

Quote:
It brings fullness of joy. It brings peace.

You just got done agreeing that it also brings events like the Crusades.

Here is some mail I got in the last few days....

From: Chef ToKe
Date: Sep 6, 2006 4:08 PM

your fucking idiot and i hope you get hit by a bus with a giant sheet of lsd on the front of it you arrogant irrational asshole

------------------
From: im a puppy for her love
Date: Aug 25, 2006 3:03 PM

you think your so smart...dont you? i cant wait untill you die, i can not wait untill you see how stupid you have been. i can not wait untill lucifer laughs at you...

That is the peace that Christianity brings?

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But more than that it brings glory to the father.

I'll leave the Star Wars reference alone.

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We don't want to live for ourselves and for our fleshly desires. We choose to live for eternity.

I choose to live for eternity too... but it doesn't mean I will. Believing something is true, doesn't make it true.

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And that's ok. I personally don't find any unhappiness in living this way.

I'm unhappy when I can see that I'm telling myself something to convince myself of something I'm not sure of. I can't stand lying to myself. I guess that's a difference between you and I.

Quote:
Im not really set out to prove you guys wrong. I just want to defend my beliefs. If someone is attacking, I will defend. I wont go trying to prove you wrong though. I respect your beiefs and thats fine. Thats your choice.

You realize you came here right? Did someone from our site come and attack you?

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What have you read in the bible that encourages christians to be homophobic, sexist and racist?

Leviticus and Deuteronomy

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It does speak out against being homosexual, but it never says to be afraid of them or to hate them.

Hun... it says to KILL them.

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And where did you read anything about the other two?

You can't find anything sexist in the bible? May I suggest either read it for the first time, or to take the Jesus goggles off and try again?

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becky wrote:sorry it took so

becky wrote:
sorry it took so long. i didnt check back here until now. first of all i completely disagree with anyone using anybody's death to further their own agenda. i don't believe that is respectful or right in anyway way whatsoever.

I agree with you.

Quote:

let me just give this thought...

there are those out there who say they do things because they are christians. They use christianity as an excuse for what they do. thats what they did in the crusades.

here's the problem with this argument: a christian is a person who accepts jesus as the christ, as his savior. That's it. So whatever christians actualy do, is what christians do!

You can't simply write off anyone who is immoral by saying that they are not 'true christians'.... what actual christians do, is what true christians are!

This said, the fact that they were christians was not always the reason they did the things they did... people all through history have done bad things.. but they tend to do it out of greed and ignorance... not just because of religion... religion is often the excuse, and not always the reason.

Quote:

But if you read the bible, and then you look at what they do, they are clearly not following the bible at all.

But others can look at the same bible and see the opposite.. slave owners justified slavery by using the bible, just like those who wanted to free the slaves used the same bible.

The fact is that both the slave master and the abolitionist were christians....

Quote:

Im not really set out to prove you guys wrong. I just want to defend my beliefs. If someone is attacking, I will defend.

Right! So it's better if we discuss and talk, rather than attack.

Good point.

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What have you read in the bible that encourages christians to be homophobic, sexist and racist?

Jesus himself insults gentiles and calls them dogs. I'd call that racist. As for sexism, do you know the part in the NT where women are ordrered to remain silent in church, and to obey their husbands like their husbands must obey god?

Quote:

It does speak out against being homosexual, but it never says to be afraid of them or to hate them.

It calls homosexuality an abomination....

Thanks for responding.

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you are right that if a

you are right that if a person accepts Christ as his savior then he is a christian. But as christians we are supposed to follow the example of Christ too. Christ never said to kill anyone or to hate anyone. He lived loved. He was love. He said not to cast the first stone. we're all sinners. I'm a christian. But I am just as much of a sinner as you are, or as someone who practices homosexuality is. I have friends who are homosexual. I'm not against them. I'm against that sin. But the thing is, when a "so called christian" uses christianity as an excuse for harming anyone, that person is not following Christ. They may say they accept Christ as their savior, but saying it is different than actually living it. The bible says that they will know we are christians by our love. That doesn't mean we don't slip up, but really a christian has the holy spirit in them and the Love from God overflows into others lives trough that person. A person who uses that same God as an excuse to harm someone, obviously isn't living the same way. I hope that made sense i'm bad at explaining things sometimes.

Now it is true that 2 people can look at the same bible and get two different opinions from it. But really, using the example of the slave owners, they are just seeing what they want to see. The bible talks about people who had slaves, it even tells slaves to obey their masters, however if you really look at it carefully, it does not endorse slavery. it simply says that if this is where you are in life, then follow your master. It's like if i were to be a slave right now. it's not endorsed. but i would obey my master so that he could see Jesus in me. It's not about making sure I get what I want. It's simply about showing Jesus to others.

I know I came here on my own. But I mean that my religion is being attacked here. And your right maybe attack isn't the right word. But you are setting out to prove christianity wrong, so i just came to defend my opinions.

It does tell women to sit silently in the bible. however that was just for that particular time and culture, where the women were beginning to act up and cause problems in the churches. If it were the men doing that i'm sure it would have been the other way around. there are other times were there are women who actually advise paul.
The women submit to your husbands part is just about showing that picture of Jesus. The husband needs to submit to God so that He can be a loving and spiritual leader, while the women submits the husband. it doesn't mean the husband gets to control the wife. its not liek that. it just means he can make a final decision about something. but again he has the extra responsibility of making sure that decision will profit his family. so again its just that picture of Jesus.

The bible may call homosexuality an abomination. But that doesn't encourage us to hate homosexuals or to be homophobic. It just is saying that that is a sin.

I believe in Jesus. He is my God and my King. I will stand for Him for my entire life, with my life.


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becky wrote:But you are

becky wrote:
But you are setting out to prove christianity wrong, so i just came to defend my opinions.

Instead of trying to defend yourself, maybe you should consider trying to understand the arguments that prove Christianity wrong.

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i will try to understand

i will try to understand those arguments. however i''m going to research them before i just believe them too

I believe in Jesus. He is my God and my King. I will stand for Him for my entire life, with my life.


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becky wrote:however i''m

becky wrote:
however i''m going to research them before i just believe them too

I'd hope you would. While you're at it look for non biblical evidence of Christ that actually came from the years that he walked the Earth. Also read the bible, it's what helps anyone stop believing. Take heed... I don't mean to hear what you're Pastor or friends tell you about the bible, I mean... "research" it, as you claim you would for our claims. Read the bible, I can tell you haven't.

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i wil. i have read the bible

i wil. i have read the bible on my own but i haven't researched it alot. so i will. i'll look for evidence of Jesus as well and get back to you gys.

I believe in Jesus. He is my God and my King. I will stand for Him for my entire life, with my life.


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man, i pray every night that

man, i pray every night that i get hit by a bus with a giant sheet of LSD on it..................
..............
..............
....never seems to happen, though.....maybe i should switch to my lucky horseshoe......

Fear is the mindkiller.


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DrFear wrote:man, i pray

DrFear wrote:
man, i pray every night that i get hit by a bus with a giant sheet of LSD on it..................

ROTFLMAO

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becky wrote:What have you

becky wrote:
What have you read in the bible that encourages christians to be homophobic,

You heard of the myth of Sodom and Gomorah?
Quote:

sexist

1 Corinthians 11:3 *

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 11:7 - 9*

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35*

34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22 - 25*

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Colossians 3:18 *

18. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:9 - 15*

9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Titus 2:3 - 5*

3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Genesis 3:16*

16. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Quote:
and racist?
Matthew 15:22-28:
I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel
Quote:

It does speak out against being homosexual, but it never says to be afraid of them or to hate them.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them...And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them." Leviticus 20:13, 23.

Becky, I suggest that you actually try reading some of the Bible before coming out with bullshit saying that it's all good and loving. It is not. This fictional character known as "God" is reported to have maliciously killed billions of people. He is petty, arrogant, homophobic, racist, religiously intolerant and sexist. If you disagree then you clearly know nothing about your own religion.


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the bible doesn't exist

Ok everyone, here's where I start harping again on something that I've mentioned but haven't taken the time to truly be really blatant about.

THE BIBLE DOESN"T EXIST.

There is absolutely no such thing in history as a divinely mandated group of books that have been given the designation "the Bible." The entire work is a compilation of men, writing well after supposed events took place, from completely different cultures, put together and edited by committees. The Bible simply isn't real, it's a figment of the imagination. There is no place in scripture (whether you're catholic or protestant) that sets out in order the 66 books and even those verses that are used for justification (II Timothy 3:16) would, by inference, not be talking about the very book it is written in!

Also, the fact that the Bible is a fiction is also supported by becky and every one of her fellow believers that in no way let the Bible stand as what they think it is, instead picking and choosing and applying textual criticism when and how they so choose. Here's a question becky: if the sections referring to women's submission are culturally complicit, then why not those applying to the eschatological mythologies of the messiah?

The point here is that engaging in debate over the particular hermeneutical nuances of the scriptures is a waste of time. People like becky are simply going to believe anything they want, usually with little to no justification other than their own desire, because in the end they don't believe what they refer to as the bible, they believe and THEN go to the scripture for justification.

Here's examples:

becky wrote:
I have friends who are homosexual. I'm not against them. I'm against that sin.

At no point in the history of traditional christian theology is the sin separated from the people doing it. Christ did not come to save the sin, but the sinner. This modern clap-trap is an example of psychology being accepted into thought with no understanding of how it actually works.

becky wrote:
using the example of the slave owners, they are just seeing what they want to see.

Really, as mentioned by others, who says you aren't doing the same thing? But of course you aren't because you're right, they're wrong. How quaint.

becky wrote:
The bible talks about people who had slaves, it even tells slaves to obey their masters, however if you really look at it carefully, it does not endorse slavery. it simply says that if this is where you are in life, then follow your master.

Critical thinking at its worse, truly. Slavery depends upon a heirarchical ideology concerning people, where one is better than another by some inherent or given virtue. By saying that "the bible" says to obey your masters, it is implicitly acknowledging the legitimacy of the status quo and that heirarchical mentality. Slavery is evil and thankfully those who fought against it during the period of teh civil war were more enlightened than god, because they decided to fight against it as being evil, not accept it as divinely mandated.

The real questions that becky needs to be asked is why you believe there is a god in the first place of your particular definition, why you believe faith is a legitimate epistemological source and what justification do you have for believing that the 66 books of your protestant "bible" is legitimate.

Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm


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becky wrote:you are right

becky wrote:
you are right that if a person accepts Christ as his savior then he is a christian.

I am glad we agree on this. Bishop Fulton Sheen once said that 'other religions expect you to cleanse yourself before you enter, christianity takes you in while you are a sinner"

We also know that christians tend to say that works avail you not.... so this gives us a second reason why the actions of a person cannot tell you whether a person is a christian or not!

Quote:

But as christians we are supposed to follow the example of Christ too.

But here's the problem: which examples? One's where he says that he brings not peace, but the sword? Where he curses trees? Where he calls his enemies vipers and hypocrites?

The ones where he calls people raca - fool

Or the ones where he forbids calling people fools, and states that they will go to hell for it?

Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,'
is answerable to the Sanhedrin.

But anyone who says, 'You fool!'
will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Quote:

Christ never said to kill anyone or to hate anyone.

According to your interpretation.

But not the view of others:

Here, some loving parents have helped teach their children the ways of christ.

And before you say "they are misinterpreting things"

Consider that they cite the bible too:

Quote:

He lived loved. He was love.

In some passages, in others, he didn't.

Anyway, the point here is that christians interpret what the bible means to them.... christians use the bible to justify their actions, whether their actions are loving or hateful:

Quote:

I have friends who are homosexual. I'm not against them. I'm against that sin.

Then you are against them, because homosexuality isn't just a thing people 'do', it describes part of what the person is... homosexuals aren't looking to sin... they aren't being selfish or harmful to anyone. They aren't hurting people by being homosexuals... they are just different from you, and that difference is called a 'sin'

Quote:

But the thing is, when a "so called christian" uses christianity as an excuse for harming anyone, that person is not following Christ.

1) You have already agreed that a christian is a person who accepts jesus as the christ. Therefore, once a person does this, they are a true christian. Period.

2) These people can cite the same bible as you to justify their disagreement with you.

Quote:

They may say they accept Christ as their savior, but saying it is different than actually living it.

But how can you judge a christian by his works? It is by faith, isn't it?

So aren't you being illogical here? You're using a method of judgement that has no bearing on christianity.

Quote:
The bible says that they will know we are christians by our love.

In some places, in others, it calls upon god's followers to dash infants against rocks, and to rape virgins.

Quote:

Now it is true that 2 people can look at the same bible and get two different opinions from it.

Or they can look at different books of the bible than you use... or they can use different versions of the bible from the one you use....

Quote:

But really, using the example of the slave owners, they are just seeing what they want to see.

Using the example of the abolitionist, they are just seeing what they want to see too... because the bible is rather clear that slavery is allowable.

The bible even gives guidelines on slavery.

“Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18). "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" (Ephesians 6:5).

Including how to properly sell YOUR OWN DAUGHTER:

“And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation, he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife: her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish” (Exodus 21:7-10).

Quote:

The bible talks about people who had slaves, it even tells slaves to obey their masters, however if you really look at it carefully, it does not endorse slavery.

Incorrect! The fact that the bible talks about slavery, without condoning it, is a tacit endorsement of slavery. To say that the bible is only a report of what 'happened' - moral or immoral, is just the logical fallacy of begging the question, because you don't know that any of this actually happened in the first place, so you can't use the 'fact' that it 'happened' to justify it.

The reality is that the bible talks about slavery without ever once saying that slavery is immoral.

Quote:

I know I came here on my own. But I mean that my religion is being attacked here.

We are critically examining your religion, not attacking you. But since every religion is really just a person's interpretation, it certainly would feel like an attack to you!

Quote:

And your right maybe attack isn't the right word. But you are setting out to prove christianity wrong, so i just came to defend my opinions.

That's fine. And we can do that without attacking each other. But I just want to warn you.... since these are your opinions, this will always feel personal to you..... so even a careful analysis of the fact s might feel like an attack.

Quote:

It does tell women to sit silently in the bible. however that was just for that particular time and culture,

Sorry, but that makes no sense. Why would a god need to obey your cultural beliefs if he feels that it is wrong?

This 'god' could have set down rules for fairness, but he did not. Instead, women like you had to fight to get those rights, sometimes against men who even quoted the bible against you, to strike fear into you.

And now the same women who had to fight against this ignorance are actually trying to justify the book that tried to take away their rights!

That's just terrible.

You deserve better.

Quote:

where the women were beginning to act up and cause problems in the churches.

Act up and cause problems? Sounds like a man talking! Women wanting the right to think for themselves only causes problems to men who don't want them to think for themselves!

Seriously, don't do this to yourself... don't justify their male chauvanism for them.

Quote:

If it were the men doing that i'm sure it would have been the other way around.

Oh come on. Come on. Be honest with yourself here.

Quote:

The women submit to your husbands part is just about showing that picture of Jesus. The husband needs to submit to God so that He can be a loving and spiritual leader, while the women submits the husband. it doesn't mean the husband gets to control the wife. its not liek that.

Do you really believe that? Do you really, honestly believe that men didn't use to control their wives?

Do you really have no sense of history at all? Do you really think that men don't even use that to control women today?

Quote:

it just means he can make a final decision about something.

Isn't making the final decision having control?

Why does the woman have to answser to the man in that fashion? Why have the woman be subservient to the man? Why not have them be partners?

Do you really believe any of what you're typing here?

Quote:

The bible may call homosexuality an abomination. But that doesn't encourage us to hate homosexuals or to be homophobic.

I really can't take this seriously, and I doubt that even you do.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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todangst wrote: And from the

todangst wrote:

And from the time of the fall of Rome, until the Renaissance - when people began to again value intellectual thought, not one significant discovery was made. Can you name one signficant scientist or scientific discovery from the 6th century? The 7th? 8th, 9th, 10th?

Now, how many can you name from the 20th?

In the Dark Ages, irrationalism replaced rationalism. In Rome, it was believed by many that the brain was the seat of intellect, and that the heart was just a muscle. In Greece, and later in Rome, it was held that the world was round... in fact, Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the world. People knew 1800 years ago how large the world was... but 1000 years later, they had NO IDEA.The heliocentric system was first uncovered in Greece.

But in the dark ages, irrationalism ruled, knowledge was shunned, and ignorace took over... people thought the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth, they believed that the heart was the center of the intellect.... where did this ignorance come from? The bible.

And even worse, diseases that were easily cured by ROMANS were uncurable for people living centuries AFTER the fall of Rome.
The Greeks and Romans invented the clinical method of science and medicine! They held that diseases were natural and curable.

Then came christianity, that shunned knowledge, actively worked against the disease model of medicine, and replaced it with demonology... now, a disease was a demon... Medical science actually went backwards, we actually LOST knowledge!

Think that isn't important?

Well, because of that, the lifespan of mankind actualy shrunk during that time. That's right, 1000 years after the fall of Rome, people were dying at an earlier age than they were prior to the fall of Rome. That's right, as time passed, things actually got worse.

If you don't think that's significant, you tell me what you think the life span will be 1000 years from now. Do you think it will shrink? Well, if it does, you can thank christianity again.

We has historical evidence that when religion controls the world, man suffers. That's why it's important to question christianity. It's important to think critically, because the alternative leads to death.

This all reminded me of a sort of hypothetical thought experiment that's come up a few times recently (usually while drinking, playing Civ IV, and having just completed the Apollo Program wonder by the early 1800's), what would the world be like right now if religion hadn't anally raped human thought for all those years? What if all the work of the Greeks & Egyptians had survived? Suppose the Library of Alexandria was was never destroyed.

Could we possibly have made it to the moon in the 1800's? Would I have my fucking flying car right now? Could cancer be a thing of the past? Could we have colonized the moon, Mars, or other planets? How many centuries are we behind where we could be? I'd guess at least 300-400 years.

And it's stunning that right now, when with the internet any idiot can get any piece of information he could possibly imagine, and technology and innovation has probably advanced more in the past century than it had in the previous couple millenia(or maybe ever), that Dark Ages thought like this is making such a fight. I just hope that it's the last ditch effort of a dying plague. One good thing about the Bush administration and useless current Congress is that with all their spectacular fuckups it's possible that people, especially enablers like moderate Christians, are finally taking notice and saying, "That's it. We've had just about enough of this shit." (cue Twisted Sister music)

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
- Eric Idle, from The Galaxy Song


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BarkAtTheMoon wrote:Could we

BarkAtTheMoon wrote:
Could we possibly have made it to the moon in the 1800's? Would I have my fucking flying car right now? Could cancer be a thing of the past? Could we have colonized the moon, Mars, or other planets? How many centuries are we behind where we could be? I'd guess at least 300-400 years.

Maybe more.... just look at Greece from 500 BCE to Roman times around 200-300 AD.... look at the growth in thought....

Here's just one sobering thought. Rome, the capital city of the Roman empire, was the world's first city to approach a population of around 1 million - around 100 AD.

They were able to achieve this through technology - fine roads the could be traversed by heavy populations.... well structured buildings built to last.... (go to Rome today and take a look a some) and fresh, clean water... enough not only for drinking, but for public bathing!

The Roman aquaducts were a marvel - Roman civil engineers found a way to bring fresh clean water to a million people....

When was the next time a western city had a population of one million? When's the next time a city met this level of technological achievement?

London.

In the 19th century.

Thanks christianity. Thanks a heap. Thanks for diverting our minds to 'faith' thanks to diverting our works to building cathedrals, rather than cities.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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If any atheists in this

If any atheists in this thread feels unappreciated they shouldn't! You are very appreciated by me at least. I bet there are more who feel this way. There are others who are thankful for atheists who bothered to debate them. Real choices depend on knowledge and critical thinking. Smiling

Becky. I do not agree with your religion, but I do respect you showing up and interacting with those who have a different perspective. You are very brave. I think you have guts. Comming here and discussing your religion with atheists. Thinking is good. Stretching..reaching for truth is hard and scary too. Doing your best to reason with others about what is in the bible and what you think it says is a virtue. Keep reading the bible Becky. Kudos to you !

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becky wrote:But I am just as

becky wrote:
But I am just as much of a sinner as you are, or as someone who practices homosexuality is. I have friends who are homosexual. I'm not against them. I'm against that sin.

...

The bible may call homosexuality an abomination. But that doesn't encourage us to hate homosexuals or to be homophobic. It just is saying that that is a sin.


It's not a sin you dolt. The bible was written several thousand years ago by people who didn't know any better, and picked up on all the little differences they could find to make out that they were better than others. It's now known that homosexuality is part of a person, and there is EVIDENCE to suggest that it is biological. It's as much a part of someone as the colour of their hair or eyes. Do you think I CHOSE to be gay? Do you think I really like girls, but I just pretend that I like boys because "it's a sin"? I don't know, maybe you do think that, you're gullible enough to believe in god.

Edit: and please just explain to me why you think it is a sin? Don't try and back it up with your little work of fiction (it's a sin because it says it's a sin), just tell me, what is wrong with it? Why is it wrong for me to love my boyfriend? Why is it wrong that he makes me happy, and I make him happy in return?

Evilrabbit's relationship:
Number of people harmed - 0
Number of people made happier - 2

But you still think it's a sin?


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Quote:evilrabbit:

Quote:
evilrabbit:
The bible was written several thousand years ago by people who didn't know any better..

If there really was a God then our stories of God can not contradict or be absurd in comparison to Gods creations. The bible is false.

Some of us where taught that all sins are equal and that drawing attention to just sex was bigotry.

But the bible does say abomination...

Quote:
evilrabbit:
Why is it wrong for me to love my boyfriend? Why is it wrong that he makes me happy, and I make him happy in return?

It doesn't feel good to think of some one as an abomination simply due to their nature....which harms no one. I would think that love is healthy. Wholesome. If God is love then how can God call love an abomination no matter who loves who? It does not compute. Religion contradicts itself Smiling


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oh my goodness. i want to

oh my goodness. i want to respond to alot of your posts... but i don't know how to quote? can someone help me?

I believe in Jesus. He is my God and my King. I will stand for Him for my entire life, with my life.


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PersonsHandle:

PersonsHandle:
What they wrote that you want to quote.

Highlite the whole thing and click on the small yellow smiley that is inbetween B ( Bold) and the blue ball ( link)

It will look like this:

Quote:
PersonsHandle:
What they wrote that you want to quote.

See? PM me if I did a bad job explaining and I will try again.


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Or you could just deal with

Or you could just deal with each post separately by clicking on the word quote in the bottom right of the box belonging to the relevant post.

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I need to turn on the option

I need to turn on the option to get emails sent to me when someone responds. This one is pretty interesting.

BarkAtTheMoon wrote:
This all reminded me of a sort of hypothetical thought experiment that's come up a few times recently (usually while drinking, playing Civ IV, and having just completed the Apollo Program wonder by the early 1800's)....

Say whaaaat? How did you do that? Maybe I'm doing something wrong! I thought religion actually helped your citizens on Civ IV...which is the best game of all time btw!


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Sapient wrote:evilrabbit

Sapient wrote:
evilrabbit wrote:

I find it embarrassing that members of my own species are actually this fucking stupid.

Me too.

i'm saddened that society has gone to the point where idiots arent killed off naturally for beleiving that some imaginary friend will stop that lion from eating them. I'm a huge fan of the Darwin Awards, which i think more theists deserve

I heard about Xians using Irwins death as an example, those peopel should be fed to crocodiles, a fitting punishment for insulting a person who did so much for our fellow animals


neon
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Quote:...Sadly, Steve Irwin

Quote:
...Sadly, Steve Irwin wasn’t a creationist. He mentioned evolution and the concept of millions of years many times in his television programs. For example, he once told Larry King on CNN’s Larry King Live cable program that crocodiles had been around for 200 million years, and if you weren’t careful they would kill you....

Oh for pity's sake. That's disgusting.


FreeThoughtMake...
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after reading this.......me

Raised Brow after reading this.......me too.

evilrabbit wrote:
Quote:
...Sadly, Steve Irwin wasn’t a creationist. He mentioned evolution and the concept of millions of years many times in his television programs. For example, he once told Larry King on CNN’s Larry King Live cable program that crocodiles had been around for 200 million years, and if you weren’t careful they would kill you....

Full article here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2006/0904irwin.asp

Disgusting. Searching the rest of their site comes up with other gems such as:

Quote:
As you add up all of the dates, and accepting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to Earth almost 2000 years ago, we come to the conclusion that the creation of the Earth and animals (including the dinosaurs) occurred only thousands of years ago (perhaps only 6000!), not millions of years. Thus, if the Bible is right (and it is!), dinosaurs must have lived within the past thousands of years....

Evolutionists declare that no man ever lived alongside dinosaurs. The Bible, however, makes it plain that dinosaurs and people must have lived together. Actually, as we will soon see, there is a lot of evidence for this.

I find it embarrassing that members of my own species are actually this fucking stupid.

Quote:
Religion at BEST - is like a lift in your shoe. If you need it for a while, and it makes you walk straight and feel better - fine. But you don't need it forever, or you can become permanently disabled.

---George Carlin---


MattShizzle
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Now Creation Ministries has

Now Creation Ministries has started a rumor that Steve Irwin became a born-again Christian a few weeks before he died.

Head Bash

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


MattShizzle
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Debunked by

highraven
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it seems to me that people

it seems to me that people refuse to use logic anymore....god loves to punish us for our sins...which he gave us a choice...so if i had a child and i told them the could stay out past 10 and they did..would it be just for me to punish them if they did? wow thats the kind of god i want...let me do it...but make me burn for all eternity if I do?Head Bash yes such a just god!!

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And Jesus said to the sheep " I shall make you blind and lame, so you may never know the truth"