In dire need of assistance!
Offline Hi everyone, I'm new to the forums but I've been lurking around the site and the stickam room off and on for a month or two. I was raised as a Christian for most of my childhood (went to a Christian school, etc.) and now I'm an atheist.
I have a problem that I was hoping you guys would be able to assist me with. I'm dating a girl who is a Christian, and we've been dating for almost a year and a half. I was somewhat new to being an atheist when we started dating, so I wasn't really sure how much of an issue it would be. Basically, it's gotten to the point where I can't stand her beliefs anymore. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I'm the type of person who is constantly challenging what I believe (or disbelieve) and learning things to back up my views. I don't believe that any belief is worth having if it can't stand up to the most intense scrutiny. The irrationality of her beliefs just really gets under my skin... it doesn't bother me the same way about people in general, but if I'm in a relationship with someone and they have irrational beliefs about anything it's going to piss me off.
I decided to end the relationship. I just can't see it going any further with us having such opposing viewpoints. I told her the only way I'd be able to stay with her is if she would sit down and examine what she believes and why she is a Christian. I know many of you will say to just respect her beliefs or whatever, and I'd be fine with just ending the relationship and letting her continue to be a Christian, but she wants to be with me and this is pretty much the only way that's going to happen. I'm sure a lot of you will think this is a doomed effort (and I'm inclined to agree), but I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and hope that she's not going to just cover her ears and ignore my arguments when it gets uncomfortable for her.
What I was hoping some of you guys could helpl me with was ammo for our conversation(s) that we'll be having. I've read Sam Harris' books and I know like every argument, I just want to cover all my bases. If there's something that you guys know is especially effective for a situation like this, I'd really appreciate it if you could point it out to me. It could be anything (books, movies, something on youtube, etc). Thank you in advance for any help you can give.
Edit: By the way, she's going to be trying to give me some theist arguments also, because she thinks she's right. I know I won't have any trouble with those, just wanted to let you all know it'd be going back and forth, not just me ganging up on her.
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Well, if you are looking for ammo for conversations, you could try what todangst and I compiled:
Deluded God
Todangst
the links will take you to enough ammo to last for ages..
I hope it interests you.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
Well, I'm sure that Hambydammit can probably relate to your position. I recall him saying before that he can't have relationships like that.
As for arguments against theism, you'll probably have to be more specific. Is there some argument where you feel like you like strength?
I think people would give you more information if you narrowed it down a little.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
Thanks for the links, I'll look through them.
Archeopteryx: Good point. I guess I'll have to wait until I start the discussion with her to get a better idea. I'm not really sure which angle to go at it from yet.
There are some good suggestions in this thread before it got completely derailed.
{edit - fixed link}
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Timmah -
Before you go ammo-gathering, let me ask you this: aside from her theism, do you like/love her? She must have some positive attributes if you've been together for over a year.
I've been married to a theist for over 7 years. We talked about beliefs early on in our pre-marriage relationship, and we just decided to put them aside because we knew neither one of us would be able to convince the other to change.
So, we don't talk about religion. We have two kids, whom she is intending to raise Christian and I'm intending to raise atheist. So they'll get input from both of us and they'll make whatever decision they make.
My advice - don't bail on the relationship just because she believes in invisible people in the sky. Be more concerned about how good she is in the sack. That's the first step on the path to a happy marriage (a statement which my wife agrees with, by the way).
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Definitely great in the sack, lol. (Edit: To be honest this isn't as important to me as an intellectual connection... guess that puts me in the male minority) I thought I'd be able to just put things aside and ignore them, but I just like have to be debating shit all the time, whether it's politics, religion, whatever. Up till now she has refused to even discuss her religious beliefs, mainly because she's one of those Christians who hasn't even read much of the Bible.
Not only do I have trouble dealing with the beliefs themselves, it's also the attitude behind them. It's the fact that she hasn't thought about them and couldn't defend them.
Everything else is good in the relationship, but I'm finding myself unable to compromise on this. I'm sure that if I'd been an atheist all my life, and hadn't de-converted from a pretty intense religious upbringing, that I'd be more able to just let it slide. Just can't help it though... I hate theism, not the theist, but I don't think I can date one, lol.
Well, I'm going to give you another piece of advice. The male brain and the female brain tend to operate on different frequencies. When you debate this issue with her, try not to sound too authoritative. If she gets the impression that you're talking down to her, she'll probably shut off her brain instantly, just out of spite.
Also, you can't just appeal to her logic, although that's definitely important. So don't just familiarize yourself with argument against Christianity. You'll also want to understand why atheism is a better alternative. Don't just say "Because it makes more sense! Duh!"
Find the positive side to atheism and tell her about it. It's not just about rejecting god. For many of us, it's about accomplishing great things by finding the power within ourselves, not by depending on a god. It's about loving and helping humanity simply because we recognize that we're all in this struggle together. Atheism is about good people simply being good people, not because they are trying to please a god or are afraid of one.
I'm fairly new to this site, so I'm not sure where to find any threads or essays people have written about the pros of atheism, but I'm sure there are some around here.
To All: Does anyone else know?
You'll want to appeal to her on an emotional level and show her that you actually care. Don't just try and prove her wrong.
Good luck!
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
If she's one of those christians that haven't read much of the Bible then that's the best bet. Just sit down with her and point out things in the Bible. Start off with a question: How can one be saved? And then go through all the contradictory verses about that.
Read off the 10 commandments and then look up the verses that speak of what the punishments are for breaking them. I'm sure when she reads the verse that all homosexuals must be put to death, then everyone who works on the sabbath must be put to death, then anyone who curses their parents must be put to death, etc., etc., she'll be really confused about what the bible is all about.
Just make her read all the crazy crap in the bible.
That should be more than enough to throw her off kilter and make her start seriously thinking about the religion she was raised to believe in.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
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wow, here we are seven years later. what happened to your post? i'd like to see how this panned out.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Me too
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.