Hello, Creationist introducing himself to you!
Posted on: August 23, 2007 - 6:08pm
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Hello, Creationist introducing himself to you!
Hello all, how are all of you? A little about myself. I'm a 23 year-old Evangelical Christian, practicing since my memory begins, and a proponent of the literal six days of creation as described in Genisis.
I've spent a few days watching these boards and thought I'd jump in and join the discussions. Don't worry, I'm no hit and run poster, and I will not cut and paste other peoples arguments. And my specific style of arguments consist of mostly questions as opposed to contentions. I find it's easier to learn this way.
I see others marked with theist under their name, but I didn't see this option, so I apologize and will change it if directed how to do so.
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This post was refreshing, you're off to a good start here. I hope you find your time here enlightening and enjoyable. If you want to come on our show and have a chat some time, let me know.
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I concur, Sapient. As a molecular biologist, I've been debating creationists for years, and almost all of them were rude and willfully ignorant and arrogant. It is nice and refreshing to see a pleasant and polite intro. Welcome to the forum.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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Welcome aboard.
Good luck.
This place has high standards.
If I may ask, why? Is it because you believe that science supports such a short timeline? Do you believe that the Bible must be taken literally to believe in God? Or do you believe in creationism simply because of social pressures, that if you don't you'll be seen as "less of a Christian"?
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Welcome FOC, I hope you're here with an open mind and will be willing to learn from the experts in biology, physics and philosophy. The scientists in particular have studied, tested and retested all the evidence time and time again.
I hope you will also be willing not to hold on to your faith just because you want to if you are confronted by facts and arguments that challenge your beliefs.
We will treat you with respect and tolerance but you must be prepared to engage in debate which may rip your beliefs to shreds. In academia anyone who cannot back up their beliefs is ripped to shreds, I see no reason why religion should be exempt from the same treatment. Any attacks will be attacks upon beliefs and not upon you as a person.
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Welcome to the forums.
Like Sapient said your post was refreshing.
How very kind of you sir. It would be my pleasure, however I'm not sure if it will work because I'm deaf. Born deaf I should say. Thank you for the invintation though, and if you think we can work around this, I'd be very happy to learn from you.
Wow, that was the most relaxed thing I've ever heard a Christian say to an atheist! Nice job, FOC.
Now, I have a two-part question for you:
What compelled you to come to this site, and why did you register and introduce yourself?
(I hope it's because you are seeking validation for recent questions you've had about the nonsensical content of that leather-bound fairy tale)
Every step I took in faith betrayed me
-Sarah McLachlan
You may indeed ask, thank you. I believe it literally because of the faith Paul writes about. A faith that needs no evidence.
May I ask why you don't believe Genisis? Is it a contradiction to science? If so, then I wonder how? Forgive my ignorance.
Have they learned anything from you?
Welcome! I have to say I was rather surprised by your post. It's wonderful to see people that are willing to have open, polite discourse over religion.
I'd like to know your opinion on science in general, if you don't mind. Why is it that you feel the earth is so young when so much evidence suggests otherwise. I'm no scientist, btw and science isn't my strong suit. I'm learning this stuff as I go along. Just curious about your position.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I lost a debate with someone(in sign language!) and they directed me to a video on the internet featuring a debate between the rrs and Comfort/Cameron, probably to show me examples of more theists losing arguments.
I introduced myself because I consider the people here to be of fine character, and hope to learn.
And no I am currently not questioning my faith, for doubt allows the Devil a way into your heart.
To all those welcoming me, thank you. Can't wait to meet more.
I'm sure there were universially regonized hand gestures involved.
I'm no scientists either, but my opinion is favorable of scientists. The will to dedicate oneself to the level of study needed in these many fields is astounding, and more should appreciate and admire those meeting the challenge.
I'm glad I surprised you, it's a hobby of mine! (surprising people, not just you, lol. That would be weird.
You will have to explain this one to me - are you saying that it is necessary for one to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis to be truely faithful?
The same reason, of course, I don't believe in the creation myths of Hinduism, Greco-Roman mythology, or Scientology. I don't believe in the respective religion and science does not support such a short time for the existence of the universe.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
At least you were seemingly rational about losing the argument, and realized that there are valid arguments on the atheist side of the spectrum. And you sought more information. That makes you exceptional.
I hope you find the courage to ask the questions that you need to be answered. I think you'll actually process the answers, again, making you exceptional.
Again, this is refreshing. I have a question for you, because that is also how I am comfortable learning:
Do you fear God's wrath more than you fear the devil?
Every step I took in faith betrayed me
-Sarah McLachlan
I think your opinion of scientists is a very good thing. Many creationists dismiss science straight out, with little or no understanding. Are you willing to learn about science?
If god takes life he's an indian giver
While I would say that Genesis is a contradiction to science, that's not why I don't buy it. The first time I read a bit about Genesis I was struck with just how implausible it was. I believe I was probably a teenager. I openly admit that I have very little knowledge of the bible, though I have read bits and pieces here and there.
There are no true accounts of Genesis, other than what is said in the bible. And I don't believe the bible can be taken literally.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Welcome, FOC! You've gotten quite the welcome from everyone, haven't you?
I'm curious how you justify "hope to learn" with not questioning your faith. How will you deal with it if presented with a great, rational argument and it doesn't fit well with what you currently believe?
If you wish to learn, you can't cling too fiercely to ideas that cannot be proven because someone may just provide an argument with links or articles and information to back it up.
Don't just ask questions ~ jump into the discussions and offer your ideas, too. We want to hear them. Really. For instance, if your god were all-powerful and it took him/her six days to create everything, why did it take that long? Should just just been a snap of the fingers, shouldn't it?
Are you also a Young Earth Creationist? Do you believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old? If so, how do you explain fossils that are much older than that?
I'll warn you a bit, you may have to grow a thick skin to discuss around here. Just ask Wavefreak and Cpt_Pineapple!
We're so glad you're here and hope you're glad, too!
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Nice to meet a theist who knows what theistic faith means. You are a rare breed.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Bible: New Testament. Hebrews 11:1.
i.e., it is belief without justification.
Furthermore:
Romans 8:24-25: “For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.” (NKJV)
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
The book of Genesis is based on 6th century BC Babylonian cosmology, seeing as 21st century cosmology has flaws, I sense that the Babylonians might have gotten a few things wrong too...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I don't know if everyone needs to take Genisis literally to have true faith. I only speak for myself.
I do not fear God's wraith because I have not really thought about it. I'm sure I will be doing so tonight though.
If what I learn can not be reconciled with my faith, then I don't know how I'm going to react. I'm sorta jumping into this without a plan.
I will say this, I think it's a possibility I'm wrong about alot of things concerning my faith.
Toddangst, where does one learn about your statment regarding Genisis origins?
But what do you think? Do you need to take Genesis literally to be faithful to God?
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
No, I don't think I do.
A literal interpretation of Genesis is contrary to everything we have seen in science - the very stars in the sky show a universe much older than 6000 years old. So why continue denying the veracity of such things when you admit it doesn't affect your faith either way?
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Now I feel bad. I apologize if my question becomes detrimental to you. When I asked that question, I expected an entirely different answer.
I think you're going to be OK. I think your lack of a plan was intentional for 2 reasons:
a) you thought that if you had tried to plan out something, you would have come to the conclusion that you could not plan for this.
b) which means you wouldn't have bothered, but yet you still want to learn something.
I think you came to the rational conclusion that just jumping in was the best way to go. That's why I think you're gonna be OK..
...and I will be agreeing with you...
Every step I took in faith betrayed me
-Sarah McLachlan
Probably not, but one soldiers on...it was a good question though, but I strongly doubt it.
And to answer the discussion queries, yes, just about everything in Genesis contradicts what science says. A literal Ussherian geneology of Adam and Eve interpeted from Genesis says that the Universe is 6,000 years old. Photonic cosmology, spetroscopy, stellar astronomy and quasar measurements indicate the universe is actually 13.7 billion years old, and trust me, I have seen the spectroscope they have at the Max Planck institute and the printouts from COBE, these things have an accurate light refractor to the tune of one billionth of a degree, and have such powerful engines that they are accurate to 1%. We are not wrong about this.
Nor did the sun simply appear in a single day. That's ridiculous. Our stellar computations are so good that we now know how our stellar center formed, the Sun, like all stars, began as a rotating gas disk which spun and solidified over hundreds of millions of years to form a star, just like they all do. Planets, moons, stars, these take millions of years to form. They do not appear immediately by magic. And Genesis indicates that the world was created in six days, and all the species on it. Just about everything from geology to radiometry to molecular biology (my field) to molecular evolutionary dynamics and paleontology and proteomics and proteonomics and hydrology and oceanography and microbiology says something utterly contradictory to this. The Earth is 4.57 billion years old, accurate to, again, 1%, and life did not appear in five days, it appeared 3.8 billion years ago, and has existed in an unbroken continuum since then, evolving from single celled organisms to all the complex life we see around us over the course of the last 3.8 billion years, slowly and painstakingly, as opposed to them suddenly being created out of nothing, which is absurd. And humans have not existed for a mere 6000 years, the earliest trace of the Homo Sapiens existed long before the mythology of Adam and Eve. We have been around for 250,000 years and migrated out of Africa across the Pan-Asian continent and the land bridge into the Americas before the thaw of the last ice age. The first humans certainly originated in Rift Valley, Kenya (where I have been, which is very nice), and were defininitely not Judeo-era Caucasians. And humans never spoke the same language (as in the tower of Babel myth). We have been seperated for so long by the thaw of the last ice age, so thinly strewn, that such a suggestion would be ridiculous. The Europeans never even met the Native Americans who their ancestors had bid farewell to a quarter million years ago when they went across the Pan-Asian landmass while the latter went across the land bridge to the Americas, until the conquistadors landed in Yucatan and Panama.
If taken literally, more or less everything in Genesis is ridiculous and impossible.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
I've spent the night thinking about your question. Yes I fear God's wraith more than Satan, because I guess I have no means of protecting myself from God's will. What he wants, he gets. (I use he in reference to God out of habit and common use.)
Maybe God isn't Omnibenevolent? I don't know. More thought required.
Your point A and point B are correct.
If your arguments with creationist consisted of such clear and to the point explanations as this, how could they not learn? Although I would appreciate any references to where I might learn more about the details on this myself, on laymen level please, I'm no scientist as you are.
Thank you.
The Christian God is most certainly not Omnibenevolent. One not forget the Old Testament and the plethora of murders and killings he either allowed or commited via direct or indirect means.
One glaring example? Egypt.
I want to concur with the others who've said its good to see you. Meeting a creationist who is polite and willing to debate in a civil manner is extremely refreshing.
I'm not much of a scientist myself but I did want to ask you a couple questions about prayer.
I'm assuming you pray, if not I apologize, but I'd like to know what is a usual thing you would pray for?
If your prayer isn't answered then how do you rationalize it? Do you say that it wasn't God's will?
You say you are deaf, have you ever prayed for your deafness to be healed?
Scientists have been working on implants that use computers to allow deaf people to hear, I don't know a lot about them and I think they're still pretty experimental, but they've been implanted in a couple people (mostly young kids) and seem to work.
If, say in ten years or so, a reliable hearing implant is made widely available and you are able to get one and can, for the first time in your life, hear the sounds around you, who would you thank? God? or the scientists and engineers who have spent years trying to create the implant?
again, its good to see someone like you and I hope you enjoy yourself on the forums.
You know, re-reading my OP, I've been spelling Genesis with an I where the first E should be. My apologies, I should pay more attention.
1. I usually pray to hear what sound is.
2. I don't rationalize it. That would be a contradiction to faith.
3. See 1
4. Personally, I'll never be able to have an implant. The nerves in my ears are extremely sensitive to touch, and the slightest touch causes immense pain. For others that would benefit from this technology I would thank the doctors/scientist. Not knowing their own personal beliefs it would be criminal for me to diminish their amazing accomplishment by ascribing my own beliefs.
Hope the answers were good, I assure you they are at least honest.
It's actually good to hear you not dismiss the work of scientists and doctors. I've seen and heard of far too many people not attributing cures and new technologies to the people who are responsible for them.