"I've been thinking" says the Christian

"I've been thinking" says the Muslim

"I've been thinking" says the Jew

"I've been thinking" says the atheist

I dont think seeking utopias by any group has solved the problem. The earth is not a giant "capture the flag" game. There are 6 billion people and even if the entire population were any ONE label there would still be problems.

Atheists are not going to "win" anymore than theists will. But we are not losing our voice. It is not a matter of slaughtering oposition. It is a matter of raising one's voice so that one can survive, not conquer.

Most atheists I know dont seek to "opress" but merely seek to ask questions. And from where I stand I do know the big differance between the way atheists were treated in 2001 and now where atheists are becoming part of the mainstreem, which we didnt have before.

You sound like you want to give up, and you should, if your goal is to deconvert the world. Humans dont change and humans believe what they want to and you wont get everyone on the same page.

BUT, what you can do is challenge people to think without being sheep.

You sound hopeless and that is giving up before you even try. Knowing what I know now about where atheists were just 6 years ago and where they are now things can and do change.

Dont think short term, they dont and neither should we. Neither the theist or atheist is going anywhere, but at a minimum we can all make bloodshed an unacceptable form of conflict resolution. 

What do you expect from someone who drinks "Old Fotran"

I've thought about this too, and of course the goal of converting die-hard Christians (or any other religious subscribers) is impossible.

I *am* interested, however, in the statistics regarding believers vs. non-believers. The number I keep seeing is that roughly 9 out of 10 people subscribe to some kind of religion.

I'm curious about the level of devotion of believers. I know a pretty wide range of people, and those who consider themselves Christians have a level of devotion that I would call "weak". They were raised Christian, maybe go to church a couple of times a year if that. I think the only reason they maintain their religion is that, if they came out as athiests, they would get backlash from their families.

If there was to be a goal for athiesm, it would be to make as many of these "on the fence" believers comfortable with the possibility of being an atheist.

False.

 The goal of direct conversion that most atheists employ towards die-hard christians, such as on these forums, is impossible.

 I say true.

 

As the OP said, you have to speak their language.  And I'd add that you not speak directly to them.  Be a presence.  They have to become atheist on accident, not at the goading of a nonbeliever.  As we all know, demanding to their face that they stop belief only strengthens it.

You might be right that a theist may not listen to logical arguments, but there is little else to say if a person wants to make an argument.

I simply can't be true to myself if I try to use an emotional argument to try to deconvert someone. Besides do you really think one kind of emotion is going to win out over the good feeling god belief might give someone?

As others have said its isn't necessary a problem with god belief itself but with reason.

I think we should offer more on the social and community building level in order to get religions people interested. Religion seems to respond to certain needs that we cannot (like confort upon death), but there are many social needs that non-religions organizations could address. That is a point I think needs more effort and can get us a positive response.

On a different note, I think this is an idea religion invented to try to scare theists away from atheism.

"If you go to atheism, you'll be afraid of death!  You'll find no comfort when your loved ones pass!"

Let me tell you.  I've lost loved ones, and been comforted.  I'm willing to bet 95% of the atheists here also have lost and been comforted.  

I'm also not afraid of death.  Don't want it to happen today, but I'm not afraid to die.  Mark Twain wondered why people were afraid of being dead... it's exactly like the billions of years before we were born, and it didn't bother us then!

It is simply not true that atheists cannot find comfort and must fear death.

 

evil, I wish I shared your optimism.  I've seen the stats on how fast Islam is spreading in Spain, England, etc.

As for thinking  the US will recover from its theism, i'm not so sure that's guaranteed.  Things are getting worse, not better, in a lot of respects, especially politically.

I'm not proud of the fact that my country has pretty much always adopted the attitude of "We're bigger than you, fuck off," but religion is very compatible with that attitude.

 Anyway, I don't see how it hurts to actively try to speed up the process of de-religio-stupidifying the country.

 

In all seriousness to the original poster. It does also take the edge off when ingauging theists to interject humor they may be familure with. There are pleanty of Christians who like many of the same things we do. Some like Futurama, Simpsons and South Park.

Pop culture is a way to take the edge off the debate a bit. I like to mention that I am a Redskins fan and listen to jazz music. Other threads at this site mention video games and even a thread about Harry Potter.

Someone correctly stated that this movement wont cure anything, especially over night. But it is important to get younger generations to stop being sheep and be individuals no matter what path they chose.

So dont think short term and dont feel hopeless. There is common ground in humanity when we look for it.

*smacks self on forehead*

What sort of a lame emotional argument is demonstrated through conversion to words in a forum post?  By emotional argument, we mean eliciting those emotions through other forms of communication, not simply opting to use words from an emotional context and vocabulary.  If people have been influenced in ways that bypass reason and logic, then attempting to convince them otherwise through reason and logic is largely folly.  We need to fight back with influence in addition to reason.  In a way, trick them out of god belief!  Believe me, they will be glad we did!

Next tuesday seems best for me... I usually have football practice till 9 every night, but I could also do it tommorow, I just would be a little late.  Just tell me when you want me there and I'l be happy to be there.

The fight isn't atheism vs theism. It's a of fight truth v.s. falsehood. There are those that desire truth and those that desire control. Right now it seems like alot of theists are into control. Some atheists seem to be bent on this as well. But are some that desire truth more than their theism or atheism. It is my hope that it these people that prevail.

Meh.

You have a point. But the kind of people I'm thinking of won't get hung up on that. And the ones's that do get hung up on it aren't really interested in truth. But language is important. It always seems to carry alot of unexpected baggage.

I've been thinking about this thread ever since I read xamination's original post. After a bit of thought I'm inclined to agree that some of us need to take an emotional as well as rational stance against religion because, let's face it, we are emotional beings.

For me, religion engendered many negative emotions: fear of god, fear of hell, bitterness at being forced to submit to men, bitterness about not being able to watch certain movies, listen to certain music, etc. Being relieved of all this was great, but I think atheists could offer more.

I've always thought this was a good idea, but you know the saying about herding cats. Due to the rational emphasis of the RRS, we don't talk much about emotions. That's cool. That's fine. In fact, the RRS is filling an important niche of rational thought. xamination, Tomcat, Richard955 and others believe atheists should address emotional needs and I find myself agreeing with them. The RRS may not want to put too many dogs into the fight. Hambydammit courteously recommended that Richard955 start his own organization. To any atheists here that have the time and resources: Why not?

If I could start my own organization, it would be the antithesis of Alcoholics Anonymous...maybe something like Ex-fundies Anonymous. It would focus on helping individuals leave religion and deal with the emotional fallout of that decision. Instead of making people feel helpless and insisting that they give in to a "higher power," such an organization would focus on empowering the individual with coping skills he or she did not learn in a religious setting. Christianity teaches people to give all their cares to Jesus. That is not conducive to living an empowered life.

When I left religion, I had no coping skills of my own. I had also lost my worldview, my self respect, my friends and closeness with family members. I still deal with the fallout on a daily basis.

So why don't I start such an organization? Poor health is the main reason. If I ever find myself in possession of good health and a reasonable amount of money, I would certainly look into it.

____

Based on other posts in this thread and other thoughts that have occurred to me since I joined the RRS, I have two suggestions for the forum itself:

1. A subforum dedicated to helping atheists develop the following:
• Debating skills
• The Socratic Method
• Less confrontational debating methods
• Your suggestion here <--
  
2. A subforum called "The Pressure Valve" (or something better) where the topic of religion is not allowed, period. Other "serious" discussion would also be frowned upon. Positive discussion would be highly encouraged. Hell, maybe we could call it the "Pollyanna" forum. Ideally, this forum would be a place where atheists and theists find common ground: music, movies, jokes, video games, art, crafts, hobbies, etc. (Maybe we could call it "Common Ground"?) This forum would either take over the purpose of the General Conversation forum or supplement it. Introductions would go in the new forum and new members would be highly encouraged to spend time getting to know other members in the Pressure Valve before posting in other forums. This would help all of us engage in more meaningful conversation.

{On edit: I envision a hybrid of the General Conversation forum and the Kill 'Em with Kindness forum: general conversation with the utmost courteousness and no swearing.}

On an Internet forum some of our basic humanness is stripped away. We read each other's words and sometimes respond rather differently than we would if we either knew the person or met him / her face to face. "The Pressure Valve" (Pollyanna Forum, Common Ground, et al.) would seek to restore what is lost when communicating anonymously via the written word. I know I'm not always at my most pleasant under these circumstances and I would wager many of you have noticed the same thing.

I look forward to your responses.

That is very similar to what I was trying to express.  However, its not just that theists ignore logic - they operate on a completely different level than us.

Dammit! I wrote a well-thought-out response to you and somehow I lost it. When I clicked on this thread, I expected it to be there and it wasn't...D'OH!

Oh well, here is try number two.

I strongly suspect there is a genetic component to religion, mostly because of its ubiquitousness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe every single culture has created some form of religion. This tells me two things: 1) religion is normal (gack!) and 2) the content of the various religions is not true. If the content was true, every culture would share the same religion. I suppose one of them could have it right, but which one? Maybe it's some remote Pygmy village in the Congo. For the most part, religions are mutually exclusive factually (in the loosest sense of the term).

Richard Dawkins explores this idea in The God Delusion. His idea is that religion is a memetical parasite that has attached itself to humanity.

Religion itself may respond to a kind of "natural selection." The religions that survive the longest tend to be the ones that offer the greatest incentives (eternal bliss) and the greatest punishments (eternal torture). Religion also forces adherents to stay part of the group or risk ostracization. Many of us have stories of lost friendships, strained familial relationships, even shunning. And I'd bet almost all the American atheists in this forum can relate to the pain of being in most hated minority in America.

Can logic and reason overcome these huge obstacles? In some cases, yes; in others, no. There is a huge emotional component to this issue that needs to be addressed.

(I probably said it better in the post that got lost. )

I agree with you.

There are some forums like exchristian.net which try to fill this social need on the internet but I doubt that the internet is the proper medium for such an organization.

Real life gathering, like a social club would be a better option. This makes the solution very hard to implement in my opinion.

On the other hand I see "Center of Inquiry", JREF, "Richard Dawkins Foundatation" and probably many other organizations, which are dedicated to some of the same goals. Maybe there is a way to bring everyone together. (sound like a nice dream, at least)

No, we cannot thrive if we do not put at least the same effort religion puts into emotional concerns.  Religion provides comfort and love, albeit often imagined, and we, as heathens, should not be able to provide as much emotional support as they do.

For us to really start changing people's minds, we must start changing hearts.