Hi. I am a new atheist and I have some personal questions for all of you please. (Moved to General Conversations)

Zeeboe
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Hi. I am a new atheist and I have some personal questions for all of you please. (Moved to General Conversations)

Hello everyone. Smiling How are all of you?

Before I begin, I think it's important for me to introduce myself to all of you and share with you my history. If you want to skip this, I understand. But please just scroll down and answer the questions. I'd really appreciate it if you would. The questions are in bold.

My name is Gilson and I'm a 24-year old young man from Texas. I was raised Christian, but when I was 12 I turned away from God for reasons I rather not get into right now because this post will be long enough as it is. LOL.

Even though I turned away from God, I still believed in Him. I just did not want to follow Him anymore. Then in early 2006, I became a born-again Christian.....for reasons I would again rather not get into at this time.

I was very overweight when I became a Christian but I loved Jesus so much that He (at least I thought He did).....inspired me to go on a diet and I lost well over a hundred pounds.

Looking back now, I wish I would have just watched Rocky. Smiling

Actually, no. I take that back. I was happy when I was a Christian. In fact, I was at my happiest when I was a Christian. There was no happier time for me ever in my entire life. I used to have a very negative outlook on life. When I became a Christian, I had a very positive outlook and was overall a very happy and pleasant person to be around.

It was one year ago at this very time. I was very religious. I prayed, I read the bible, I went to church, I posted on Christian message boards, I posted prayer requests and the prayers always were answered and I watched the church channel all the time and loved The Way of the Master. I felt good. I felt happy. I was happy to be alive.

Now here I am one year later as an atheist and I am miserable.

It all started when I saw The Da Vinci Code last year and after seeing it, it changed my life forever. It first made me really question the existence of God.

I researched the Da Vinci Code on the web but it was debunked by my online Christian friends very easily. However, I wanted to research religion more because the proof of God being real was still not given to me. So I researched everything there was on Christianly. Then I researched Judaism. Finally, I researched atheism.

I very, very was slowly going down hill as each day passed. It took a matter of months but in the end, atheism won and here I am, posting on my very first atheist message board.

No one but me knows my true feelings. People in my family still think I am religious and I have never publicly announced that I am atheist.

Now for my questions:

Was anyone else who was religious before becoming an atheist depressed and/or bitter at the world afterwards?

If so, how did you deal with it?

Did it ever go away?

Are you truly happy with being an atheist?

Is it normal to react this way?

Why do you think I am depressed?

Do any of you fear death?(My fear of death has gone up greatly. It actually makes my heart beat faster when I think about it.)

Does anyone else feel guilty when they kill or at least hurt religious people's views? Especially if those people are your family members?

For a few months now, every now and then I have half-ass debates with family members and acquaintances about religion and I pretty much stump them every time. I bring up points Richard Dawkins has brought up before and ask questions he has asked and give the same answers he has been asked and I even have my own questions and answers.

Infact, I was asking some of the questions and making the same comments Dawkins made before I watched his stuff but I have learned more facts and even more stories from the bible because of Dawkins that I never knew before. And I looked them up for myself and he was telling the truth.

Anyway, back to my last question: The looks on some of the Christians I've debated with make me feel bad. I silence some of them, I shock some of them with the things I put out in the bible that Dawkins pointed out to me and the looks on their faces....like I said, they get a little upset and some even get very angry.

And then I recall watching the debate the rational response squad had with Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort.....two men I once greatly admired and respected.........get destroyed in a debate....I was not being bias either. I was hoping so badly that the two men who I had so much respect for would save my faith. I wanted them to win, but they didn't. They even posted a BS "introduction to debate" video on you tube that was a total cope out to try and cover up that they lost.

Anyway, I feel bad. I hate seeing my family members looking upset....heck, I hated seeing Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort look upset.

I feel like I am taking away the hope these people have. When I was religious, I was a happy person. Now look at me. I've been angry, miserable and have been depressed for months.

Now granted...it took me a long time to get to the point I am at now so I have no doubt that one debate with a Christian isn't going to kill their faith but it might plant the seeds....and they might start doing research on the web like I did and then they found Richard Dawkins and it all goes down hill from there....

In a way, since become a nonbeliever...I am developing my own laws and I believe destroying someone for no reason is a crime in my book. Unless I am attacked by religious people, I see no reason for going after them.

And if they came out with me with little force, I'd respond with little force. If they come at me with full force, I respond with full force. Either way, I will always try to be civil and respectful.

I guess that's my very first law in my bible. lol.

Anyway, I had a friend on my space write me and ask me why I changed my religion to agnostic and I told him why and then he wrote me back with bible quotes and telling me to look up bible quotes and reminded me of a former teacher of ours that died a few months ago and almost sounded angry.

Should I reply back or let it go? At first, I thought I'd just let it go.

It's kind of like an old Simpsons episode when Lisa discovered Jebediah Springfield was actually not a hero, but a crook. But she saw how happy everyone was in Springfield and how he brought out the best in everyone and made so many people happy that she decided not to tell everyone the truth about him.

That's how I feel now. Religion can be very easily debunked. VERY easily...but if God makes people happy, then why take Him anyway?

Like I said, I myself fear death more now then ever and if people can get comfort by thinking their loved ones are living in the clouds up in Heaven or if they think they will go there one day and there is no reason to fear death...why take it away? I consider them lucky actually and telling them the truth is almost like telling the truth to a small child about Santa Claus. I just don't know if I am mean enough.

Right now, typing all this....I feel bad. Really...I have this very strange feeling as I type all this like I am murdering somebody. My stomach feels weird and so does my throat. My heart beats quicker too...and sometimes I actually feel sick to my stomach like I wanna throw up. Is this all in my head?

Or is God telling me something?

No, no.....I know it's in my head...it's just wishful thinking on my part.

You know, I almost posted this on a part of the forum where religious people are welcome because I want so badly to believe and want to be convinced that God is real.

But I don't want this topic to turn into a debate. I've seen enough of those and I pretty much already know what the religious people are going to tell me.

In closing, I don't like this new person I am. I want to be a Christian again, but I can't live a lie.

I wish I hadn't ever seen The Da Vinci Code because it planeted the first seed. Although I shouldn't just blame that movie. I use the net all the time and I'm sure in due time, I would have discovered atheism. But who knows, maybe I would have ignored it and stayed happier for a lot longer.

I think the reason why most people are still religious despite the overwhelming evidence that crushes religion is because they ignore the clips on you tube and this website and all the books. They wanna cover their ears and live in their fantasy world....and I can't blame them.

Thanks for reading. I'm sorry if this was long. Any advice will be highly appreciated.

And if there are any religious people out there lurking, I will welcome your prayers and private e-mails.

Thank you all again.


Master Jedi Dan
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Quote: Please don't make

Quote:

Please don't make videos autoplay. It's annoying - especially to those of us listening to something else.

Is there a way to make them not do it?  I couldn't figure out how, but if you could help me I'd gladly change it.  Sorry about that. 

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Quote: We don't know

Quote:

We don't know this... Applying what we don't know to some form of diety is the definition of myth.

Then what created time, matter, and space?  Nothing?  I'm not seeing the connection here...

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Master Jedi Dan wrote: Then

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
Then what created time, matter, and space?  Nothing?  I'm not seeing the connection here...

The Norse believed that during a thunderstorm, Thor rode through the heavens on his chariot pulled by the goats Tanngrisni ("gap-tooth&quotEye-wink and Tanngnost ("tooth grinder&quotEye-wink. Lightning flashed whenever he threw his hammer Mjollnir.

Why did the Norse believe Thor created lightning with his hammer?  They had no other explanation, it was their frontier. So it had to be the work of God's.

Reasoning past the frontiers of science and saying God/God's exist here in this spot, has been used many times in the past, and has yet to produce a God. I'm not sure why you think this is proof, now.

I wouldn't assume it takes faith to not believe in myth, however the opposite is true.

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


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Master Jedi Dan wrote: And

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

And when you ask for evidence, there is none.  You just get blown off.  See what I told you?

Do you want me to post yet again the books I found my information in, Master Jedi Dan?  So you can ignore it and say I did not respond to you?  Fine.  Here is where I found my evidence YET AGAIN.  Feel free to completely ignore it and act like I did not respond to you.

1. The World's Saviors, by Charles Vail

2. The Worlds Sixteen Crucified Saviors, by Kersey Graves

3. The Golden Bough, by George Frazer.

Everyone look!  I just blew off their questions for evidence!  I did not respond where I found my information!  I'm not answering the christians about where I found information against their god!

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Zeeboe wrote: I don't see

Zeeboe wrote:

I don't see how you can call doing days and days of research as being lazy. You don't know me or what I have been through or what I have studied. I already said I was not challenging you or trying to argue with you and all I was trying to do was learn and you learn by asking questions to those who know more about the topic you learn. The truth is, you don't have all the answers and you are telling me to go look it up for myself because you don't know. If you did, it wouldn't be a big deal to answer them.....you aren't really aren't sure about God are you Watcher?

You are arguing your ass off for god.  When I post the books I get my information from and you are too fucking lazy to look into those books, hell yes I will call you lazy.  Go read The Worlds Sixteen Cruicified Saviors you lazy theist!  If you expect me to go read books for you and give you a brief summary because you are too lazy to seek your own truth you are a lazy bastard.

You think "days and days" of research is some big investment in time, Zeeboe?  I spent the majority of my 20s researching and slowly disbelieving religion.  And I did it without a single fellow atheist around.  Online or other.  I did it with no one's encouragement or support so you are a fucking lazy bastard to sit there and expect a bunch of atheist to prove atheism to you.

You then sit in not only an atheist website, but the atheist only area of an atheist website and argue FOR christianity!  

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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If you want more evidence

If you want more evidence to back up my claim of all the other religions saviors that share similarities of christ Master Jedi Dan and Zeeboe, you don't even need to know how to read.  Go watch The God Who Wasn't There

It also makes the claims that jesus is based on older, mythic saviour figures.  It will show you that earlier gods like Thor, Balder, Deva tat, Beddru, Dionysus, Bacchus and Horus shared one or more similarities to Jesus, including "Born of a virgin on December 25", "Killed on a Cross or Tree ", "Visited by Magi from the East", "Rode Donkeys into the City" and "Betrayed for 30 Pieces of Silver".

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Zeeboe
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I'm not asking you to do

I'm not asking you to do another thing for me anymore Watcher. Don't you worry about that. I will do the research and read all the right books, but don't tell me what I believe and don't believe. The problem is many of you don't know where I am coming from. Many of you were born atheist so you can't relate to this problem and those of you who were not clearly had a bad relationship with God because you felt "free" when you changed your views. But that is not the case for me. This is like losing a close family member, and I'm starting to think I am on the wrong atheist message board.


ParanoidAgnostic
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Zeeboe wrote: Many of you

Zeeboe wrote:
Many of you were born atheist

Everyone was born atheist


Zeeboe
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And that means what? From a

And that means what? From a Christian point of view, that is why Jesus was sent to save the world because we are all sinners.


ParanoidAgnostic
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You made the comment that

You made the comment that many of us were born atheists, as though that was significant in some way. That it made it easier to be an atheist since we were born that way.

My point was that noone is born with a concept of god so everyone is born an athiest, yourself included.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Zeeboe
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If you are as smart as I

If you are as smart as I think you are, I hope you'd get what I meant when I said some of you were born athiest, meaning you were raised that way.


ParanoidAgnostic
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Then you need to say what

Then you need to say what you mean. Words can be dangerous. 'born atheist', 'raised atheist' or 'always been atheist' (which I think was your intended meaning) have different implications.

 Your statement that it's easier for us because we were born atheists carried the implication, even if un intended, that it's possible to be born a christian. I knew what you meant I was just making sure that implication was not left unchallenged.

In response to your clarification though, most have not been raised atheists, particularly in the US. Many here were raised christian. Also just not being raised in a specific faith is not being the same as being raised atheist. I never had atheism taught to me. My father is an atheist but My mother is catholic. My father left me to figure it out for myself and didn't even reveal that he was an atheist until I had made it clear that I was one. My mother took me to sunday school and church occasionally when I was very young but didn't really push religion. I would say I was raised secular.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Zeeboe
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Well, as I said not all my

Well, as I said not all my days with God were bad. So leaving that life style is not as easy and as simple for me as it was for some of you.


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"Well, as I said not all my

"Well, as I said not all my days with God were bad. So leaving that life style is not as easy and as simple for me as it was for some of you."

 

Okay, Zeeboe, let me tell you about "leaving that  lifestyle."

 

I was brought up in a so-called Christian background, which I rejected at age 15.  From age 15 until 18, I lived in a household where my so-called "loved ones" chose to "shun" me because I had decided their Christian beliefs made no sense.  Try to imagine living with people who say they love you, but who choose to shun you, while you are fifteen years old, until you are 18, and living in their house, attempting to abide by their Victorian rule for 3 years (and as a teen-ager, at that).

When I wanted to fill out my financial aid apps for college,my "loving, Christian" father refused to do so, due to his stand on women being "subservient to the Christ and to the father and to the congregation," or some such nonsense. 

Luckily, my borderline personality disorderd mother took my side in the matter and chided him in the right direction that month.  Luckily for me, I was on her good side at that time, and my dad was "henpecked" by him.   

Since that time, 25 years gone by, I have been variously derided, shunned and virtually spit upon, over the years - by "good Christians" who "love" me - in the name of their book publishing company which they call a religion. 

And believe it or not, it took a lot of years to finally realize that these fuckheads would never "come around" to the fact that they had been "taken for a ride" by the Jehovah's Witlesses.  

No matter what the name, religion is a racket, and you still seem to be on the carousel.  Why not get off before the dizziness overcomes you, hon? 


Zeeboe
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New question.

I'm still doing my studying and I now have a new question for you guys.

(If you want to skip the following rambling from me, that's cool. My question is at the bottom and is in bold.)

Teresa Nichols - It sounds like you had a bad experience with religion and I did too and I'm sorry that happened to you. I know that there are a lot of bad Christians out there, but there are lots of good ones too. And it seems to me that the issues that you and many others have, myself included...is not with God, but with the people who worship Him. And some of the things people do are not the same kind of stuff Jesus Himself would do.

Now as far as I go and why I haven't truly let go of God is because I haven't really given religion a fair chance. I can't just decide what my belief is based on you tube videos or message boards. I need to get out there and be amongst the people and ask all the hard questions.

According to the Christian belief, all one has to do is humble themselves before God and He will take over their life. I plan to do that. I also plan to become apart of the body of Christ and see what it is like to be an active church member and be in groups and see what their advice is when things get tough. I've never really had a lot of Christian friends before, so it should be interesting.

Think of this as me going undercover. But I just want to see if God is real for myself and do all the things Christians claim you have to do to find Jesus. Think of this as an an expierment as well. Like I said, I don't just plan to be Mr. Church member and be a blind follower. I plan to ask ALL the tough questions that Richard Dawkins and The Rational Response Squad asked. Who knows, I might convert a few people to join this side.

I still want to come on this board though. I might need some help with debating those guys. And I might need you guys to help me with some hard questions to ask.  The way I see it...is if a guy like me who is a community college drop-out can outsmart and beat Christians who are older and smarter then me on other subjects, but also make their living teaching religion then I will know it's all fake.

But I have to see this all for myself. Two things will happen. Either God and His people will save me, or I will see that relgion is all just fake and all the stuff you guys said about it was true, but I have to actually see it for myself.

 Now while I do plan to ask all the hard questions, I do have to be fair and ask you guys the hard questions too. This next question is not that hard though.

Do you hate the idea of Jesus and Christianity?

(I cannot stress this enough. These questions are not me trying to argue with any of you.)


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Zeeboe wrote: Do you hate

Zeeboe wrote:

Do you hate the idea of Jesus and Christianity?

In terms of Jesus the man. I don't hate him, atleast the way he is described by christians, but if you are talking about Jesus as God then I would hate him if he was real. The god christians seem to believe in is an insecure megalomaniac playing a sadistic game. I would hate a human being with these qualities and have no reason to have another standard for god.

I hate all ideologies that crush individuality and reason and have their followers try to force the ideology onto others. So I hate christianity, but I also hate most real-world forms of communism.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Zeeboe
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I spoke today on the phone

I spoke today on the phone with the guy who runs the official Way of the Master My Space page and I brought up some of the quotes in the Bible from the old testament that gentiles don't obey the old laws, with the exception of the ten commandments. He explained it much better then I did but to keep this simple, it seems that Christians are to only obey the ten commandments and the words of Jesus Christ.And also, I've read in the Bible before where it mentions that those who commit adultery are to be stoned to death. But when the Jews tried to stone Mary Magdalene to death and went to Jesus for his input, He said "He who is within sin, cast the first stone." And I have a feeling Jesus would tell that to anyone else who tried to kill in the name of God.How do you all respond to that?


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What do you think, Zeeboe?

What do you think, Zeeboe?

Have you given serious consideration to my previous comments? At what point do you think this is going to end? Do you realize that you could fully go on like this for the rest of your life? The bible is so ambiguous, with so many different translations and interpretations, that it's been studied and analyzed continuously for thousands of years without much progress. In the end, there's not much there that you can't get on your own. Is that really how you want to do with your life, or are there more productive ways that you could prepare for your future? Do you really think you'll get far trying to prove/disproove "god" with the bible alone?

To be quite honest, you're behaving similar to an addict, IMO. I don't mean that to offend you, but it seems like you've got something else going on that really needs to be addressed before you're going to be able to approach this rationally.

You should also realize that just because someone can "out debate" you, doesn't necessarily make them right. All it would prove is that the person is better with words than you are. If you want to approach this right, you're going to have to do so with measured reason, logic, and objectivity. There may be a place for emotions in there, but it needs to be balanced. You'd do well to improve your critical and logical thinking, and get yourself to a point that you can put emotions aside for a while. Learning about science is the easiest and funnest way to do so, and you'll then have a lot more information to work with.

Don't worry... you don't need to figure out all the mysteries in life at age 24, and if you're waiting to do so before moving on then you need to realize it's not going to happen.


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Quote: Now here I am one

Quote:
Now here I am one year later as an atheist and I am miserable.
I like what Dan Dennett says about "the secret to happiness": "Find something more important than yourself, and devote your life to it". That pretty much sums it up, and will apply whether or not you hold a belief in a god.


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Zeeboe,

Zeeboe,

As I was looking through posts this morning I began thinking about this thread and the location in the forums.

Your atheism seems to be in question by yourself and others. Maybe you are on the fence or whatever, but the Freethinking Anonymous forum where your thread is located is for 'atheists only' per forum rules. There have been recent comments posted by you that appear to be theistic, I am going to move this thread to 'General Discussions' so that there are not any rules violations. This does not mean to imply you are not an atheist, rather the thread is being moved to adhere to the rules of the 'Freethinking Anonymous' forum. If you have any issues with this please send a private message to me or another moderator.

Here is a quote from a 'sticky' at the top of this forum:

Quote:
From this point forward the moderators will be destroying posts made by theists in the "Freethinking Anonymous" forum. If you are a theist please be careful not to waste your time posting in this forum by looking at the top of the screen to determine which forum you are in when posting. If you are an atheist and what theists to be able to weigh in on your topic, use "General Conversation" or "Atheist vs. Theist."



Thanks,



RRS Mod Team




...and here is the official description of the forum:

Quote:


Freethinking Anonymous
A haven for those who are without a belief in god, to discuss and the theorize, think freely, and debate any issue. No taboo issue in here. NO THEISTS ALLOWED IN THIS FORUM. THEIST POSTS WILL BE DESTROYED.






Everyone else posting here please make note that the location is being changed.


Zeeboe
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That's cool with me about

That's cool with me about the thread being moved.

ABx, yes..there is some truth to what you said. Like I said almost a week or so ago, with the exception of a few minor things...this is all I seem to think about. And when I talk about my chats with Christians, I'm not trying to debate them just like I'm not trying to debate you guys.

But this isn't really causing any problems for me. If anything, I think I am a little more content now doing all of this research. Either I am going to get a relationship with God or I am going to get used to being like all of you. Either way, I'm going to have a lot more knowledge at the end of all this and will hopefully be happy with the choice I made.


Susan
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Zeeboe wrote: or I am

Zeeboe wrote:

or I am going to get used to being like all of you.

For the most part that would be:

Happy

Hard-working

Volunteering

Contributing to society as a whole

Involved parents

Intelligent

Caring about all living things

Always learning

 

Need I go on?

 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Zeeboe
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lol. No I get it. It seems

lol. No I get it. It seems to me that the issue here is not what path I go down, but the issues I have are personal ones. Rather I join forces with you guys or become a true Christian....it seems like either way I am going to be depressed. One of the reasons why I actually want to join a church is because I figure it gives me a chance to make some friends and who knows, maybe even find some romance. I can't really do that by becoming an atheist.

Anyway. some of you are not going to believe this...but it's true. I rather not get into the details, but I somehow managed to get into contact with Kirk Cameron from The Way of the Master a few days ago and he and I have been e-mailing each other regularly. I pretty sure it's him. I don't see why someone would lie, especially if it's a Christian group. He e-mailed me after I e-mailed the Way of the Master, telling them of my faith problems. It's funny because when I was at my saddest I actually prayed to God to let me speak to Kirk Cameron or Ray Comfort and it came true. Those guys get thousands of e-mails and yet Kirk Cameron personally responded to mine and he and I have been e-mailing each other. So that was an answered prayer. Anyway, in one of the e-mails I sent to him I asked him about one of the evil bible quotes and this is what he had to say about the following quote...

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying. “Let us go and serve other gods,”…you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God." - Deuteronomy 13:7-11

This is Kirk's response...

"God's civil Law to the nation of Israel (only) after the Law was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The second commandment (idolatry) was punishable by death because of the wickedness of idolatry. Some of the surrounding nations worshipped false gods (like Molech and others) who would throw their babies on the white hot arms of the their bronze gods to sacrifice them. Other wicked practices went on as well. God is serious about sin and about worshipping Him in truth, and actually pronounced the death penalty for not just idolatry, but for transgressing 7 of the 10 commandments.

We are not Jews living under that civil law in Israel, during that time in history, and are not bound to it today (just as you are not bound to ancient Roman law today). So you don't carry out those instructions today in Texas! If you were a Jew in Israel back then, you would.

However, we stand here today and God has pronounced the death penalty upon all of humanity because we have each personally sinned against him continually (Romans 3:10; 6:23). You've admitted that yourself in your last email. Every human being is on death row, waiting for the day of your death (because of sin).

Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the moral Law of God (Ten Commandments). We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to. We must repent and trust in the Savior.

Make sense?

Sincerely,


Kirk"

Makes sense to me. Do any of you have a response to what he said?

I've been very polite and respectful towards him in the e-mails. I don't want to wear out my welcome with e-mailing him. But I haven't really been challenging him that much because I feel awkward and don't want to appear to be disrespectful. And I know he must get busy and I just don't want to annoy him by debating with him.

Recently, I spoke more personally with him and told him about my life and why I am having trouble becoming a Christian and he told me that I needed to not worry about that stuff right now, to stop whining and to just get right with God and to be grateful for the things I do have.

He is right. I mean, I have been very lazy and all I do is complain about my life, but I don't do much to change it and I do have it a lot better then others. But even so...what I would like to say to him is this...

"Kirk, with all due respect....rather you became a Christian or not, you would most likely be having a good life right now. I don't personally know you, but it would appear that you are happy with your life and even before converting you were happy. After all, you're rich, famous and good looking. That's the American dream. So it's real easy for you to talk about accepting the hand you're dealt and to be thankful towards God because if God is real, He clearly likes you a lot but some of us have to work for his affection and even when we get it, we still don't get the same treatment. We're like the ignored child in a big family."

Anyway, that's what I would like to say to him but I don't want him to think I am being mean. I really like and admire him a lot. I really do. He took time out of his busy life to write me and I should not take that for granted by being rude.

But jealously and anger are two normal human traits and yet if we ever feel jealous or even if we hate someone who wronged us, we're sinning and we're supposed to not ever feel jealous or hate someone who wronged us. And then there are those other laws about lying and not lusting and always honoring our parents event if our parents hold us back in life.

It seems to me that being a Christian means not being human.

Then there is this other quote from the bible...

"If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."  - Leviticus 20:10 When the Jews tried to stone Mary Magdalene to death they told Jesus that according to the law of Moses that anyone who commits adultery must be put to death and you see that for yourself in the quote I posted. And when they went to Jesus for his opinion (because as you know, they were trying to prove to everyone he was a fake) Jesus said... "He who is within sin, cast the first stone." And I have a feeling Jesus would tell that to anyone else who tried to kill in the name of God.How do you all respond to that?It seems to be that all these evil bible quotes that talk about killing people are from the old ways and it doesn't apply to Jesus and Christians. It seems to me that either God changed his mind or man just messed up His words so He sent Jesus to fix things and it seems to me that nothing Jesus said was ever evil. Jesus even talks about turning the other cheek to when people asked him about the whole "Eye for Eye" thing.Did God change His mind or did man mess up his words?I mean, God flooded the world once and later regretted it. They say man is made in God's image, so who knows...maybe God does make errors too if He exists and that is why He sent to Jesus to fix things.Any thoughts on this?


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Zeeboe wrote:

Zeeboe wrote:

lol. No I get it. It seems to me that the issue here is not what path I go down, but the issues I have are personal ones. Rather I join forces with you guys or become a true Christian....it seems like either way I am going to be depressed. One of the reasons why I actually want to join a church is because I figure it gives me a chance to make some friends and who knows, maybe even find some romance. I can't really do that by becoming an atheist.

Anyway. some of you are not going to believe this...but it's true. I rather not get into the details, but I somehow managed to get into contact with Kirk Cameron from The Way of the Master a few days ago and he and I have been e-mailing each other regularly. I pretty sure it's him. I don't see why someone would lie, especially if it's a Christian group. He e-mailed me after I e-mailed the Way of the Master, telling them of my faith problems. It's funny because when I was at my saddest I actually prayed to God to let me speak to Kirk Cameron or Ray Comfort and it came true. Those guys get thousands of e-mails and yet Kirk Cameron personally responded to mine and he and I have been e-mailing each other. So that was an answered prayer. Anyway, in one of the e-mails I sent to him I asked him about one of the evil bible quotes and this is what he had to say about the following quote...

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying. “Let us go and serve other gods,”…you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God." - Deuteronomy 13:7-11

This is Kirk's response...

"God's civil Law to the nation of Israel (only) after the Law was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The second commandment (idolatry) was punishable by death because of the wickedness of idolatry. Some of the surrounding nations worshipped false gods (like Molech and others) who would throw their babies on the white hot arms of the their bronze gods to sacrifice them. Other wicked practices went on as well. God is serious about sin and about worshipping Him in truth, and actually pronounced the death penalty for not just idolatry, but for transgressing 7 of the 10 commandments.

We are not Jews living under that civil law in Israel, during that time in history, and are not bound to it today (just as you are not bound to ancient Roman law today). So you don't carry out those instructions today in Texas! If you were a Jew in Israel back then, you would.

However, we stand here today and God has pronounced the death penalty upon all of humanity because we have each personally sinned against him continually (Romans 3:10; 6:23). You've admitted that yourself in your last email. Every human being is on death row, waiting for the day of your death (because of sin).

Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the moral Law of God (Ten Commandments). We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to. We must repent and trust in the Savior.

Make sense?

Sincerely,


Kirk"

Makes sense to me. Do any of you have a response to what he said?

I've been very polite and respectful towards him in the e-mails. I don't want to wear out my welcome with e-mailing him. But I haven't really been challenging him that much because I feel awkward and don't want to appear to be disrespectful. And I know he must get busy and I just don't want to annoy him by debating with him.

Recently, I spoke more personally with him and told him about my life and why I am having trouble becoming a Christian and he told me that I needed to not worry about that stuff right now, to stop whining and to just get right with God and to be grateful for the things I do have.

He is right. I mean, I have been very lazy and all I do is complain about my life, but I don't do much to change it and I do have it a lot better then others. But even so...what I would like to say to him is this...

"Kirk, with all due respect....rather you became a Christian or not, you would most likely be having a good life right now. I don't personally know you, but it would appear that you are happy with your life and even before converting you were happy. After all, you're rich, famous and good looking. That's the American dream. So it's real easy for you to talk about accepting the hand you're dealt and to be thankful towards God because if God is real, He clearly likes you a lot but some of us have to work for his affection and even when we get it, we still don't get the same treatment. We're like the ignored child in a big family."

Anyway, that's what I would like to say to him but I don't want him to think I am being mean. I really like and admire him a lot. I really do. He took time out of his busy life to write me and I should not take that for granted by being rude.

But jealously and anger are two normal human traits and yet if we ever feel jealous or even if we hate someone who wronged us, we're sinning and we're supposed to not ever feel jealous or hate someone who wronged us. And then there are those other laws about lying and not lusting and always honoring our parents event if our parents hold us back in life.

It seems to me that being a Christian means not being human.

Then there is this other quote from the bible...

"If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10 When the Jews tried to stone Mary Magdalene to death they told Jesus that according to the law of Moses that anyone who commits adultery must be put to death and you see that for yourself in the quote I posted. And when they went to Jesus for his opinion (because as you know, they were trying to prove to everyone he was a fake) Jesus said... "He who is within sin, cast the first stone." And I have a feeling Jesus would tell that to anyone else who tried to kill in the name of God.How do you all respond to that?It seems to be that all these evil bible quotes that talk about killing people are from the old ways and it doesn't apply to Jesus and Christians. It seems to me that either God changed his mind or man just messed up His words so He sent Jesus to fix things and it seems to me that nothing Jesus said was ever evil. Jesus even talks about turning the other cheek to when people asked him about the whole "Eye for Eye" thing.Did God change His mind or did man mess up his words?I mean, God flooded the world once and later regretted it. They say man is made in God's image, so who knows...maybe God does make errors too if He exists and that is why He sent to Jesus to fix things.Any thoughts on this?

I am glad I decided to move this thread out of Freethinking Anonymous.

This whole post amounts to nothing more than backhanded proselytizing. You seem to be trying to sneak in here under the guise of a depressed atheist so you can preach the message.

Everything you put into this post is for naught, we have heard it all before and you have not 'preached' a word we haven't heard.

Let me ask you this, is it alright with your 'god' for you to deceive others so you can try to convert others? I think not, according to your 'false idol' Kirk Cameron, "if you have ever lied it makes you a liar", and that is some thing you need to work out with your magic friend, not us.


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I offer my most sincere and

I offer my most sincere and humble apology if that is what you think. I assure you...I am NOT trying to preach to anyone. I am only trying to find the answers. That is the honest truth.I will say that in defense of Christians...at least I can go on their message boards and ask all the hard questions and they are all very nice, patient and polite. Whereas many of you guys are quick to anger and hostile. And instead of answering my questions, you ignore them and get mad.


wavefreak
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Zeeboe wrote: I offer my

Zeeboe wrote:
I offer my most sincere and humble apology if that is what you think. I assure you...I am NOT trying to preach to anyone. I am only trying to find the answers. That is the honest truth.I will say that in defense of Christians...at least I can go on their message boards and ask all the hard questions and they are all very nice, patient and polite. Whereas many of you guys are quick to anger and hostile. And instead of answering my questions, you ignore them and get mad.

 

Coming to an atheist site and expecting behavior similar to a Christian site is misguided. Christians are compelled to 'niceness' because of their beliefs. Atheists are not so compelled. Here, at least, they are direct and to the point. They ARE patient if you take the time to learn their "language". But they get testy when posts are the same old thing heard over and over. Christians what to help you. Atheists want you to help yourself. What seems like hostility to you is really more related to a fundamentally different approach to living.


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Zeeboe wrote: I offer my

Zeeboe wrote:
I offer my most sincere and humble apology if that is what you think. I assure you...I am NOT trying to preach to anyone. I am only trying to find the answers. That is the honest truth.I will say that in defense of Christians...at least I can go on their message boards and ask all the hard questions and they are all very nice, patient and polite. Whereas many of you guys are quick to anger and hostile. And instead of answering my questions, you ignore them and get mad.

Well, I am not surprised.  Quoting scripture often brings out the nicer side of christians, whereas most of us believe the scriptures to be fictional so quoting them is annoying.  The scriptures are not proof of anything and should not be used to justify your faith or lack thereof.  

If you quote something here from ANY source, you will probably get differing opinions.  Some of them will be hostile.  So what?  If you want people that agree with you regarding the bible and don't challenge you, then by all means, talk to christians.  If you want intelligent discussion on many issues, stay here. 


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Zeeboe wrote:

Zeeboe wrote:

I offer my most sincere and humble apology if that is what you think. I assure you...I am NOT trying to preach to anyone. I am only trying to find the answers. That is the honest truth.



Well, I might be mistaken but I have continually throughout this thread gotten the impression, from some of your comments and the way you phrase some questions to the atheists, that there is an ulterior motive lurking.

The way that you lovingly praise the Kirk & Ray "It's funny because when I was at my saddest I actually prayed to God to let me speak to Kirk Cameron or Ray Comfort and it came true.", and the way you make certain back handed insults to atheists, "Either I am going to get a relationship with God or I am going to get used to being like all of you." (as if we are miserable and it something to get 'used' to), leads me to question whether you are sincere.


Zeeboe wrote:
I will say that in defense of Christians...at least I can go on their message boards and ask all the hard questions and they are all very nice, patient and polite. Whereas many of you guys are quick to anger and hostile. And instead of answering my questions, you ignore them and get mad.



You do not need to lump all of the other posters here in with the way you perceived my response. I do not represent anyone else here but myself, and what I posted is the impression I am getting from your posts. Maybe you are confused and maybe I just do not understand that state of mind, but like I already stated there seems to be a back handedness to some of your comments/questions.

 

Finally, praise the christian message board all you want but I GARUN - FUCKIN' - TEE that if they thought you were being deceitful they would call you on it and that is all I have done.


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wavefreak wrote:   Coming

wavefreak wrote:
 

Coming to an atheist site and expecting behavior similar to a Christian site is misguided. Christians are compelled to 'niceness' because of their beliefs. Atheists are not so compelled. Here, at least, they are direct and to the point. They ARE patient if you take the time to learn their "language". But they get testy when posts are the same old thing heard over and over. Christians what to help you. Atheists want you to help yourself. What seems like hostility to you is really more related to a fundamentally different approach to living.

Thanks Wave!!

This is dead on!! 


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Okay, I guess I wasn't

Okay, I guess I wasn't banned after all. I tried to reply a second ago and I was told I didn't have access. I guess someone changed their mind and realized how bad they were making themselves look. Anyway, I didn't know you were asked those questions before. I'm not a mind reader. How was I supposed to know that? And why is it a big deal to answer it again? Christians get asked the same stuff all the time too and they have no problem either answering again or pointing me in the direction of an interview where the question was already answered.

Now I am new to this believe it or not, but let me see if I got this correct....

To be an Atheist, you have to learn how to speak like one? Well, you know Christians welcome everyone and you can talk however you want...

It's funny. You guys talk about Christians being a cult and yet you guys have your own language and get pissed when someone doesn't know how to speak it already...I was very nice, polite, humble and civil towards all of you and this is how you react.I WAS telling the truth. I'm NOT a fake. Like I said, I ask Christians hard stuff too. It's almost like I was hosting my own debate because I asked you guys questions and asked the Christians questions...and as of right now, the Christians are kicking your butts. And that's mostly because of this little outburst.You guys try to end religion because you need more atheists but whenever speaking to a person isn't some stupid mindless teenager or 20-something year old who is full of testosterone and rebellion and is actually intelligent and gives both sides a fair chance...you just drop the ball because you're not used to talking to a smart person who knows about religion and atheism.

 You know, I actually prayed last night again and then this happened.....very odd.

From a Christian point of view, this all makes perfect sense...God wants me to go to church this weekend and to stop visiting this website and forum. Of course, like most people...I just gotta have proof of that and maybe God wanted me to see you guys lose your tempers when you didn't have the answers to the hard questions so I could see that I should not come to this site...not because you guys "tell the truth".....but because you don't know the truth. You don't have all the answers to the hard questions like you think you do and your beliefs are ALL based on FAITH....

So just make some cheesy anti-Christian joke and ban me.....I don't care.

I will have to mentioned what happened here to some of the Christians I talk with....I doubt it'll shock em'.


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"Either I am going to get a

"Either I am going to get a relationship with God or I am going to get used to being like all of you." That was NOT meant to be an insult. Where did I say that I thought you guys were angry? Read every word in my posts please if you're going to respond to them.I should also add that I have mentioned Richard Dawkins and The Rational Response Squad to the Christians I talked with and even mentioned that I thought Christians were just mindless zombies...And they NEVER lost their temper like you guys you did....not once. They never even showed a hint that they were annoyed or angry.


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This actually kind of

This actually kind of reminds me of the paper route I had when I was 11. This old lady subscribed after I was getting set into my way of doing things. For the first few months I absolutely hated her because I thought she was nitpicky and mean. After I got things done to her way, however, she became my best customer. She was the most friendly on the route, and gave bigger tips than anyone else. The change ended up with everyone on the route happier, too, and giving bigger tips. It was a lesson that stuck with me for the rest of my life and helped me in every area of endeavor.

If you want a social group, Zeeboe, then find something that truely absorbs you. When you find something like a hobby or a cause that you can really get into, then you'll find a community of others with your same interests. If you really need a church type atmosphere, you could even try a Unitarian church, as Teresa mentioned. They might even have a group for those in your position.

Ultimately one of the reasons you're not getting the reception you expect is that you're almost approaching this site like a television or vending machine. You're spouting scripture and expecting us to do your thinking for you. You've shown little to no interest in actually thinking for yourself, and you're even going so far as putting out ads for people talk at you, and whoever says something you haven't heard before wins. You also seem quick to reject anything that doesn't fit the answer you expect or want, with little ambition to actually look into the things you're asking us to convince you of. If you want to talk about things, then talk about them. If you want to navel gaze and mull over scripture, go to a church. If you really want to learn something about the universe you live in, you need to broaden your horizons beyond a single book of dubious origin and content (the bible). The bible is transparently fiction, and we're not going to pontificate over each passage the way that a christian will. Why would we want to? Sure, there are valid messages in it, but there are valid messages in The Simpsons, too. Whatever way you decide to go, you'd be a lot better off getting a grasp on discoveries of modern science. You would probably find much more profound truths from psychology and philosphy books.

You're right that the point is that neither christianity or atheism will affect your depression, but the point is also that as long as you are this emotional, you're not going to be able to arrive at any kind of truth. Instead, you're just going to seek out what makes you feel better in the short term. I'm sure that you are quite happy thinking of this subject exclusively, but that's not going to resolve anything. Sooner or later, you'll have to tackle the issues you're avoiding.


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First, I am not an atheist,

First, I am not an atheist, is spite of what Hambydammit says.

 

Zeeboe wrote:

Okay, I guess I wasn't banned after all. I tried to reply a second ago and I was told I didn't have access. I guess someone changed their mind and realized how bad they were making themselves look. Anyway, I didn't know you were asked those questions before. I'm not a mind reader. How was I supposed to know that? And why is it a big deal to answer it again? Christians get asked the same stuff all the time too and they have no problem either answering again or pointing me in the direction of an interview where the question was already answered.

This is what I am talking about. You can't expect atheist to behave like a Christian. It's like asking a dog to behave like a cat.

Quote:

Now I am new to this believe it or not, but let me see if I got this correct....

To be an Atheist, you have to learn how to speak like one? Well, you know Christians welcome everyone and you can talk however you want...

To be an atheist you have to not believe in god. But this particular group of atrheists has a specific outlook and approach to their atheism. Sort of like the difference between Catholic and Assembly of God. Even amoung Christians, differences in doctrine and language create communication challenges. The difference between Christianity and Atheism os vast compared to two different denominations. So yes, you do have to "speak" atheist to effectively communicate.

Quote:
It's funny. You guys talk about Christians being a cult and yet you guys have your own language and get pissed when someone doesn't know how to speak it already...

I was very nice, polite, humble and civil towards all of you and this is how you react.
Call it a trial by fire. Many people come to this site under false pretenses or with designs on "saving" the poor deceived atheists. It annoy's me sometimes and I believe in god. So there is a bit of skepticism around here. If you REALLY are interested in what they have to say, you'll tough it out and ask good questions, listen and learn. It may not solve your existential crisis, but it WILL challenge your thinking.
Quote:
I WAS telling the truth. I'm NOT a fake. Like I said, I ask Christians hard stuff too. It's almost like I was hosting my own debate because I asked you guys questions and asked the Christians questions...and as of right now, the Christians are kicking your butts. And that's mostly because of this little outburst.
Maybe. Maybe not. But if the confrintational style is putting you off, then you are likely missing the core ideas of what is being said.
Quote:
You guys try to end religion because you need more atheists but whenever speaking to a person isn't some stupid mindless teenager or 20-something year old who is full of testosterone and rebellion and is actually intelligent and gives both sides a fair chance...you just drop the ball because you're not used to talking to a smart person who knows about religion and atheism.

 

 

Visit the philosophy forum here. They are VERY used to talking to smart people. When you post statements like this one, it only creates more hostility. This is a two way communication. If it has spun out of control it is more likely that the fault belongs to more than one side.

Quote:
You know, I actually prayed last night again and then this happened.....very odd.

From a Christian point of view, this all makes perfect sense...God wants me to go to church this weekend and to stop visiting this website and forum. Of course, like most people...I just gotta have proof of that and maybe God wanted me to see you guys lose your tempers when you didn't have the answers to the hard questions so I could see that I should not come to this site...not because you guys "tell the truth".....but because you don't know the truth. You don't have all the answers to the hard questions like you think you do and your beliefs are ALL based on FAITH....

 

The key phrase is "From a Christian point of view". If you never set aside that point of view long enough to try out a different one, then it will never make sense.

 

Quote:

So just make some cheesy anti-Christian joke and ban me.....I don't care.

I will have to mentioned what happened here to some of the Christians I talk with....I doubt it'll shock em'.

No. It won't shock them. Nor will anyone here be shocked. This entire conversation is far more typical than you realize.

 

The real question is are you REALLY interested in truth? Gaining truth can be painful. If all you want is to feel good, then this is NOT the place to hang out.


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Zeeboe wrote: "Either I am

Zeeboe wrote:
"Either I am going to get a relationship with God or I am going to get used to being like all of you." That was NOT meant to be an insult. Where did I say that I thought you guys were angry? Read every word in my posts please if you're going to respond to them.I should also add that I have mentioned Richard Dawkins and The Rational Response Squad to the Christians I talked with and even mentioned that I thought Christians were just mindless zombies...And they NEVER lost their temper like you guys you did....not once. They never even showed a hint that they were annoyed or angry.

 

 

Really? Maybe the reason they seem so nice there is because you portray atheists poorly and ask for prayers.

I did a quick google search for your username and found many posts on many christian message boards like this one:

Quote:
Since I was 12-years old, I've always been a very depressed, unhappy person. But then in 2006, I became a Christian and for the first time in a long time, I felt truly happy. But towards the end of the year, I slowly began to lose faith. I was always trying to be the perfect Christian, I went to a church but never joined one and got frustrated whenever life didn't go my way and only saw the negative that is in religion. I eventually got burned out on religion and now I am how I used to be: An unhappy, lazy human being who is always sad or angry and an atheist at heart.

Please pray that Christ comes back into my life.

 

 

I am not saying you are not having doubts, but you are not a non-believer either. You are in turmoil and you are questioning everything, and looking for everyone to give you answers. That is not how it works, you have to figure out for yourself what is true. The christians are always ready with a quote from scripture or a prayer but those do not constitute answers, they are just placebos.

The reason I question your atheism is because you have not decided what you believe or don't believe yet, you are still looking. An atheist lacks belief in a god, you still appear to have some god belief. Maybe you just need to lay off labeling yourself until you figure out what is right for you. 

 

 

 


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Well, as I have said

Well, as I have said before....I am an "Other" trying to figure out the truth. I thought I made that clear. I'm not on either side. I'm the guy in the audience asking the questions or in some cases, the moderator asking each side hard questions. And if some of you only saw my interactions with Christians, you'd probably have a different opinion of me. I may appear to be a Christian here, but when with the Christians, I appear to be an atheist.I wouldn't have come here if I wasn't seeking the truth. So go ahead. Hurt me. Make me feel sad if you can. But don't expect me to make it easy, and before you bring up some other topic...please respond to my questions and I'd like to say that in regards of the "evil bible quotes", I've seen videos with Dawkins where he points out those "evil bible quotes" as well as atheist run websites that do the same and all I was doing was replying to them. I assumed you guys would gladly point out those "evil bible quotes" whenever in a debate, so I thought it deserved a response.If you're not interested, just say so. After all, why should you all help a stranger on the net? I'll go elsewhere. There are other Atheists forums on the web if you're not interested.This is also not just a study on finding the truth. It's a human study as well and so far, there aren't many who are as compassionate as you claim atheists are. And this does not apply to all of you. A small group of you have been very warm-hearted but if I was running a poll, the Christians would be winning in regards of who has the warmest heart.


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Zeeboe wrote: Okay, I

Zeeboe wrote:

Okay, I guess I wasn't banned after all. I tried to reply a second ago and I was told I didn't have access. I guess someone changed their mind and realized how bad they were making themselves look.

To my knowledge, you were neither banned or unbanned. It was probably just a computer glitch. As stated in the rules, you would have been warned and the issue discussed among the moderators prior to any action being taken.

Zeeboe wrote:
Anyway, I didn't know you were asked those questions before. I'm not a mind reader. How was I supposed to know that? And why is it a big deal to answer it again? Christians get asked the same stuff all the time too and they have no problem either answering again or pointing me in the direction of an interview where the question was already answered.

This is unfair. Your questions were discussed at length and answers provided. Your dislike of the answers does not mean your questions went unanswered. If I remember correctly, I did suggest that you do some research on your own to which you responded rather snippily that you have done "days and days of research". DAYS AND DAYS? Try years and years. You expected us to do research for you that you can do yourself and need to do yourself.

I also told you before that no one here is going to tell you what to think. You will have to decide for yourself. If you want to be told what to think, by all means, consult christians. They are quite good at it.

Zeeboe wrote:
Now I am new to this believe it or not, but let me see if I got this correct....

To be an Atheist, you have to learn how to speak like one? Well, you know Christians welcome everyone and you can talk however you want...

This is a lie. Christians do NOT welcome everyone - they welcome those who think like them; they tolerate other people. Sometimes.

Zeeboe wrote:
It's funny. You guys talk about Christians being a cult and yet you guys have your own language and get pissed when someone doesn't know how to speak it already...
That is not true. We do not have our own language. We just use it a little differently. Again, we simply challenge you to think for yourself and we get pissy when you expect us to think for you.
Zeeboe wrote:
I was very nice, polite, humble and civil towards all of you and this is how you react.
Zeeboe wrote:
I WAS telling the truth. I'm NOT a fake. Like I said, I ask Christians hard stuff too. It's almost like I was hosting my own debate because I asked you guys questions and asked the Christians questions...and as of right now, the Christians are kicking your butts. And that's mostly because of this little outburst.
*shrug* You heard what you wanted to hear.
Zeeboe wrote:
You guys try to end religion because you need more atheists
What?????
Zeeboe wrote:
but whenever speaking to a person isn't some stupid mindless teenager or 20-something year old who is full of testosterone and rebellion and is actually intelligent and gives both sides a fair chance...you just drop the ball because you're not used to talking to a smart person who knows about religion and atheism.
Please explain to me how this is not an insult? What exactly about the above statement is civil, nice or polite?

Zeeboe wrote:
You know, I actually prayed last night again and then this happened.....very odd.

From a Christian point of view, this all makes perfect sense...God wants me to go to church this weekend and to stop visiting this website and forum.

Well, if you are just going to preach or tell lies, that is ok by me.

Zeeboe wrote:
Of course, like most people...I just gotta have proof of that

By all means, allow yourself to see whatever you want and consider it proof. You will anyway.

Zeeboe wrote:
and maybe God wanted me to see you guys lose your tempers when you didn't have the answers to the hard questions so I could see that I should not come to this site...not because you guys "tell the truth".....but because you don't know the truth. You don't have all the answers to the hard questions like you think you do and your beliefs are ALL based on FAITH....

Atheism is not based on faith. There aren't any beliefs on which to have faith. (FYI - what you are doing is considered Projection - you should look it up. Fascinating stuff.)

Zeeboe wrote:
So just make some cheesy anti-Christian joke and ban me.....I don't care.

I will have to mentioned what happened here to some of the Christians I talk with....I doubt it'll shock em'.

Nope, no jokes. Just sad that you came here with your mind set a specific way and refused to look at the information without bias. Your christian friends will not be shocked. I am not shocked either.


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Zeeboe wrote:

Zeeboe wrote:

Well, as I have said before....I am an "Other" trying to figure out the truth. I thought I made that clear. I'm not on either side.


This is (your title) why you have not made it clear:

Hi. I am a new atheist and I have some personal questions for all of you please.


.... plus in numerous subsequent posts you have said "I am an atheist" or "as an atheist".

Zeeboe wrote:
I assumed you guys would gladly point out those "evil bible quotes" whenever in a debate, so I thought it deserved a response.
If you're not interested, just say so. After all, why should you all help a stranger on the net? I'll go elsewhere.



I will not discuss the bible, I do not think of the bible as anything more than mythology. It may say good things and it may say bad things but to me it just fiction and has no relevance to my life.


Zeeboe wrote:
There are other Atheists forums on the web if you're not interested.
This is also not just a study on finding the truth. It's a human study as well and so far, there aren't many who are as compassionate as you claim atheists are. And this does not apply to all of you. A small group of you have been very warm-hearted but if I was running a poll, the Christians would be winning in regards of who has the warmest heart.




What you are perceiving as a 'cold and mean' attitude here is more a 'help yourself, self reliant" attitude.

You can ask all the questions you want but we can't fix things for you. That is something you must do for yourself, otherwise you will never be truly healthy, you will just be 'patched'.


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(I didn't read the whole

(I didn't read the whole thread... just the first page and a bit more) 

Wow... why do you consider yourself an atheist? If you keep praying and asking god for help you are not an atheist. You are just doubting your faith, but you still believe it. Once you become an atheist you will know that there is no point to do that and you will never be tempted to pray again. (not even just in case)

 Your depression comes from whatever happened with your parents, it has nothing to do with changing from theist to atheist. If you are trully depressed, go look for proffesional help, the internet is not the place to do that. Now if you want to understand atheists better, then yeah this is the place.

 First of all, you should be afraid of death. If you are not afraid of death, then what is the point in living? But I don't think you are afraid of death, I think you are afraid of being wrong about god. I have head before "death is the cause of all fears" and I agree with that to some extent. (at least it's the greatest of all fears)

  I smell some bullshit coming from your posts. I don't know if you are lying to us, or not being true to yourself. Understand that god doesn't exist, and therefore he can't make you happy. Your mind alone has the power to make you happy. Change your attitude towards life and you will be happy.

 By the way... just because you are atheist, it doesn't mean you can't have theist friends. Most of my friends are theist, as I went to a catholic school. I have never tried to "de-convert" a friend, but we do discuss religion and the unknown. Just make sure you are not too pushy.


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I have no clue where to go

I have no clue where to go to in regards of those bible quotes I brought up. Can you at the very least give me a source? A book title? A DVD? A website? An author? Anything? And I'm not talking about evolution or other things in the subject of atheism, but those exact bible quotes I brought up.

The Christians I speak with answer all my questions or at the very least point me in the direction and not many of you have done that and since the discussion isn't going your way, you're avoiding it and turning this into some kinda personal debate about me and who I am and what I'm doing here and even make light personal attacks.

And so far, all the Christians I've spoken with have treated me just fine. If anything, they appear to be nicer to those who don't think like them.

BGH - You are correct and I did admit many posts back..thanks to some of the members of this board that I am actually not one like I thought.

In regards of those bible quotes, atheists have used the evil bible quotes as a weapon in debates and that is why I brought it up.

I'd also like to add I have only prayed twice in recent weeks and like I said many posts back, I'm going to experiment and see if God exists by doing it the Christian way and the Christian way is to humble yourself before God. My mind set changed because I just randomly stopped believing without once listening to the Christian side of things and get their input on some of the harder questions. I figure if I am going to leave God forever, I should at least put up a fight and give both sides a fair chance.

Anyway, can we please get off the subject of me now and get back to the main topic? Or maybe I should just left this thread retire and check out the other threads and forums and post there because my mind set has changed since starting this thread.


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What is the "Main Topic"

What is the "Main Topic" you would like us to revisit?

 


wavefreak
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Maybe you should start a new

Maybe you should start a new thread and keep the topic narrower. It's impossible to anser all your questions in a single thread. One well answered question is worth far more than dozens that are not.


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Quote: I have no clue where

Quote:
I have no clue where to go to in regards of those bible quotes I brought up.

I heard http://www.google.com was a good website to search for stuff. 


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Zeeboe wrote: Or maybe I

Zeeboe wrote:
Or maybe I should just left this thread retire and check out the other threads....
You should definitely read up on other threads, regardless. Every forum is going to have it's own atmosphere, social structure, way of doing things, frustrations, and so on. You might even find that some of your questions have been previously discussed in depth! I would have actually thought you'd do a fair amount of reading before posting in the first place.


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Zeeboe wrote:

Zeeboe wrote:
... and he told me that I needed to not worry about that stuff right now, to stop whining and to just get right with God and to be grateful for the things I do have.

This advice is now right on the money!

 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


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BGH wrote: What is the

BGH wrote:

What is the "Main Topic" you would like us to revisit?

 

 Nevermind.

wavefreak wrote:
Maybe you should start a new thread and keep the topic narrower. It's impossible to anser all your questions in a single thread. One well answered question is worth far more than dozens that are not.

Dully noted.

silentseba wrote:

Quote:
I have no clue where to go to in regards of those bible quotes I brought up.

I heard http://www.google.com was a good website to search for stuff. 

I tried that and got nowhere. A personal response would be better. Maybe I should e-mail the people who run those evil bible quotes sites...and then get insulted or ignored. Because there is no answer.

ABx wrote:
Zeeboe wrote:
Or maybe I should just left this thread retire and check out the other threads....
You should definitely read up on other threads, regardless. Every forum is going to have it's own atmosphere, social structure, way of doing things, frustrations, and so on. You might even find that some of your questions have been previously discussed in depth! I would have actually thought you'd do a fair amount of reading before posting in the first place.

I plan to do my homework.

Susan wrote:

Zeeboe wrote:
... and he told me that I needed to not worry about that stuff right now, to stop whining and to just get right with God and to be grateful for the things I do have.

This advice is now right on the money!

 

 

Laughing

Okay, I'm going to try this one more time and then you have my word I'm gonna stop bumping this thread.

 Atheists (including Richard Dawkins) are always talking about the evil quotes in the bible that talk about killing such as this one...


"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying...“Let us go and serve other gods”…you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God." - Deuteronomy 13:7-11

I asked Kirk Cameron about this and this is Kirk's response...

"God's civil Law to the nation of Israel (only) after the Law was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The second commandment (idolatry) was punishable by death because of the wickedness of idolatry. Some of the surrounding nations worshipped false gods (like Molech and others) who would throw their babies on the white hot arms of the their bronze gods to sacrifice them. Other wicked practices went on as well. God is serious about sin and about worshipping Him in truth, and actually pronounced the death penalty for not just idolatry, but for transgressing 7 of the 10 commandments.

We are not Jews living under that civil law in Israel, during that time in history, and are not bound to it today (just as you are not bound to ancient Roman law today). So you don't carry out those instructions today in Texas! If you were a Jew in Israel back then, you would.

However, we stand here today and God has pronounced the death penalty upon all of humanity because we have each personally sinned against him continually (Romans 3:10; 6:23). You've admitted that yourself in your last email. Every human being is on death row, waiting for the day of your death (because of sin).

Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the moral Law of God (Ten Commandments). We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to. We must repent and trust in the Savior.

Make sense?

Sincerely,


Kirk"

Any response to this at all?

And this has not been responded to yet either...

"If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10

When the Jews tried to stone Mary Magdalene to death they told Jesus that according to the law of Moses that anyone who commits adultery must be put to death and you see that for yourself in the quote I posted. And when they went to Jesus for his opinion (because as you know, they were trying to prove to everyone he was a fake) Jesus said... "He who is within sin, cast the first stone."  And I have a feeling Jesus would tell that to anyone else who tried to kill in the name of God.

How do you all respond to that? Many of you say Jesus has done no good for the world and that Christians are killing machines and that the bible supports that and I am saying that it doesn't and there is proof of that and that being a Christian does not mean you are a psychopath who wants to kill everyone.

It seems to be that all these evil bible quotes that talk about killing people are from the old ways and it doesn't apply to Jesus and Christians. It seems to me that either God changed his mind or man just messed up His words so He sent Jesus to fix things and it seems to me that nothing Jesus said was ever evil. Jesus even talks about turning the other cheek to when people asked him about the whole "Eye for Eye" thing.

Did God change His mind or did man mess up his words?

I mean, God flooded the world once and later regretted it. They say man is made in God's image, so who knows...maybe God does make errors too if He exists and that is why He sent to Jesus to fix things.

Any thoughts on this at all? This is not me trying to have a church chat with you guys either. Again, many people such as Richard Dawkins attack Jesus and His followers, saying it's all evil and death and killing but I don't think that is true.


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BGH wrote:

[MOD EDIT - duplicate post removed]


JCE
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Zeeboe wrote: Okay, I'm

Zeeboe wrote:

Okay, I'm going to try this one more time and then you have my word I'm gonna stop bumping this thread.

Atheists (including Richard Dawkins) are always talking about the evil quotes in the bible that talk about killing such as this one...


"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries to secretly seduce you, saying...“Let us go and serve other gods”…you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God." - Deuteronomy 13:7-11

I asked Kirk Cameron about this and this is Kirk's response...

"God's civil Law to the nation of Israel (only) after the Law was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The second commandment (idolatry) was punishable by death because of the wickedness of idolatry. Some of the surrounding nations worshipped false gods (like Molech and others) who would throw their babies on the white hot arms of the their bronze gods to sacrifice them. Other wicked practices went on as well. God is serious about sin and about worshipping Him in truth, and actually pronounced the death penalty for not just idolatry, but for transgressing 7 of the 10 commandments.

We are not Jews living under that civil law in Israel, during that time in history, and are not bound to it today (just as you are not bound to ancient Roman law today). So you don't carry out those instructions today in Texas! If you were a Jew in Israel back then, you would.

However, we stand here today and God has pronounced the death penalty upon all of humanity because we have each personally sinned against him continually (Romans 3:10; 6:23). You've admitted that yourself in your last email. Every human being is on death row, waiting for the day of your death (because of sin).

Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the moral Law of God (Ten Commandments). We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to. We must repent and trust in the Savior.

Make sense?

Sincerely,


Kirk"

Any response to this at all?

Kirk Cameron is not a biblical scholar.  Neither am I for that matter so if you are willing to believe his made up stuff, here is my made up stuff:  Mr. Cameron is stating that the old testament is not to be taken literally and only applies to jews.  This is incorrect.  The new testament does not replace the old testament.  Matthew 5:17-18


Zeeboe wrote:
And this has not been responded to yet either...

"If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10

When the Jews tried to stone Mary Magdalene to death they told Jesus that according to the law of Moses that anyone who commits adultery must be put to death and you see that for yourself in the quote I posted. And when they went to Jesus for his opinion (because as you know, they were trying to prove to everyone he was a fake) Jesus said... "He who is within sin, cast the first stone." And I have a feeling Jesus would tell that to anyone else who tried to kill in the name of God.

How do you all respond to that? Many of you say Jesus has done no good for the world and that Christians are killing machines and that the bible supports that and I am saying that it doesn't and there is proof of that and that being a Christian does not mean you are a psychopath who wants to kill everyone.

For the moment, I will ignore the fact that you continually lump all atheists together and take the gigantic leap from biblical endorsed killings to all christians being considered psychopaths.  Since you are too fucking lazy to look this up yourself, here is a sampling of happy verses from your friend Jesus:

Mark 7:9-10

Luke 12:49-53

Luke 13:22-30

John 8:58-59 

 

Zeeboe wrote:
It seems to be that all these evil bible quotes that talk about killing people are from the old ways and it doesn't apply to Jesus and Christians. It seems to me that either God changed his mind or man just messed up His words so He sent Jesus to fix things and it seems to me that nothing Jesus said was ever evil. Jesus even talks about turning the other cheek to when people asked him about the whole "Eye for Eye" thing.

Did God change His mind or did man mess up his words?

I mean, God flooded the world once and later regretted it.

Ok, how is this even possible?  God knew he would regret the flood, but he did it anyway?  That doesn't even make sense.

Zeeboe wrote:
They say man is made in God's image, so who knows...maybe God does make errors too if He exists and that is why He sent to Jesus to fix things.

Any thoughts on this at all? This is not me trying to have a church chat with you guys either. Again, many people such as Richard Dawkins attack Jesus and His followers, saying it's all evil and death and killing but I don't think that is true.

I have given you a small sampling of information here.  As others have tried to explain to you, please read Rook's threads regarding biblical errancy.  

Link to forum

I do not hold out much hope of a response from you since you ignored my earlier posts, which is fine.  What you are looking for is for someone else to formulate arguments for you to take back to your christian sites.  Make your own arguments. 


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Zeeboe wrote: Did God

Zeeboe wrote:



Did God change His mind or did man mess up his words?

 

An atheist does not believe in this 'god' you speak of and the quotes are from a book of mythology that was written by primitive men who were trying to understand the world around them.

 There was not any divine inspiration, man did not mess up the words because they did not come from a 'god', rather they came from imagination.

Zeeboe wrote:
I mean, God flooded the world once and later regretted it. They say man is made in God's image, so who knows...maybe God does make errors too if He exists and that is why He sent to Jesus to fix things.

Any thoughts on this at all? This is not me trying to have a church chat with you guys either. Again, many people such as Richard Dawkins attack Jesus and His followers, saying it's all evil and death and killing but I don't think that is true.

The bible is attacked because it is used to promote a religion which not everyone adheres to and for many people has a direct effect on their lives. I do not follow the bible, I think it is mythology just the same as Norse and Greek mythology. I do not feel the 'morality' some believers claim to gain from this book should become be a morality forced upon me. Too many times, especially in the U.S., christians try to force the whole of society to follow the rules they think their little magic friend helped write 2000 yrs ago.

Almost all atheists I have ever met are very moral people and they didn't have to read the bible to formulate this ethical code. Their ethics came from society, their parents and their personal experiences. They do the good because of a desire to treat their fellow man well, not because they are afraid of a 'sky daddy'. This is an infinitely more respectable reason for being ethical.

 


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Quote: Any response to this

Quote:
Any response to this at all?
Plenty, HERE

Quote:
When the Jews tried to stone Mary Magdalene to death they told Jesus that according to the law of Moses that anyone who commits adultery must be put to death and you see that for yourself in the quote I posted. And when they went to Jesus for his opinion (because as you know, they were trying to prove to everyone he was a fake) Jesus said... "He who is within sin, cast the first stone." And I have a feeling Jesus would tell that to anyone else who tried to kill in the name of God.
And how well has that worked out, really?

Quote:
being a Christian does not mean you are a psychopath who wants to kill everyone.
Who ever said otherwise? It sounds to me like you haven't fully understood what was said.

Quote:

It seems to be that all these evil bible quotes that talk about killing people are from the old ways and it doesn't apply to Jesus and Christians. It seems to me that either God changed his mind or man just messed up His words so He sent Jesus to fix things and it seems to me that nothing Jesus said was ever evil. Jesus even talks about turning the other cheek to when people asked him about the whole "Eye for Eye" thing.

Did God change His mind or did man mess up his words?

I mean, God flooded the world once and later regretted it. They say man is made in God's image, so who knows...maybe God does make errors too if He exists and that is why He sent to Jesus to fix things.

Any thoughts on this at all? This is not me trying to have a church chat with you guys either. Again, many people such as Richard Dawkins attack Jesus and His followers, saying it's all evil and death and killing but I don't think that is true.

The subject of the violence and other harm that religion does has been kind of beaten to death on these forums. Here's a few threads to get you started:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/8596

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/philosophy_and_psychology_with_chaoslord_and_todangst/8246

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/8649

I hope you'll take this in the spirit intended, which is purely informational. (I personally think that you've taken more offense than was ever intended.)

My suggestion would be to spend some time going through previous threads throughout the forum. Add your thoughts to threads discussing the questions you have. If you don't feel that any of them are appropriate to your specific thoughts, then start a new thread. If you want people to be on their best behavior and address the question at hand only, and be as nice as possible, then start the thread in the "Kill em with kindness" forum. That is a forum where it would be against the rules for anyone to be "mean" to you in any way.

Starting a new thread would also make it much more likely that your question will get more attention and from a wider audience than in this thread, and it will be focused entirely on the issue at hand. Just be ready to actually discuss the issue, and not just make an off-handed remark and throw another question out (or more scripture). Be aware that even though you will get feedback, opinions, and fact, you really will also be expected to think the issue through and engage in a two-way discussion on the matter.


wavefreak
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You need to realize that to

You need to realize that to most, if not all, of the regulars at this site consider the bible nothing more than mythology. If you ask "what about this in the Bible" or "what about that" the short response is going to be "because it is myth and it doesn't make sense".  Ultimately, the answer you will get around here is to abandon the bible as a source of truth. If you are hoping that you will get assistance in making sense out of the bible, you will be disappointed.  To RSS, it doesn't make sense and never will.