Hi. I am a new atheist and I have some personal questions for all of you please. (Moved to General Conversations)

Zeeboe
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Hi. I am a new atheist and I have some personal questions for all of you please. (Moved to General Conversations)

Hello everyone. Smiling How are all of you?

Before I begin, I think it's important for me to introduce myself to all of you and share with you my history. If you want to skip this, I understand. But please just scroll down and answer the questions. I'd really appreciate it if you would. The questions are in bold.

My name is Gilson and I'm a 24-year old young man from Texas. I was raised Christian, but when I was 12 I turned away from God for reasons I rather not get into right now because this post will be long enough as it is. LOL.

Even though I turned away from God, I still believed in Him. I just did not want to follow Him anymore. Then in early 2006, I became a born-again Christian.....for reasons I would again rather not get into at this time.

I was very overweight when I became a Christian but I loved Jesus so much that He (at least I thought He did).....inspired me to go on a diet and I lost well over a hundred pounds.

Looking back now, I wish I would have just watched Rocky. Smiling

Actually, no. I take that back. I was happy when I was a Christian. In fact, I was at my happiest when I was a Christian. There was no happier time for me ever in my entire life. I used to have a very negative outlook on life. When I became a Christian, I had a very positive outlook and was overall a very happy and pleasant person to be around.

It was one year ago at this very time. I was very religious. I prayed, I read the bible, I went to church, I posted on Christian message boards, I posted prayer requests and the prayers always were answered and I watched the church channel all the time and loved The Way of the Master. I felt good. I felt happy. I was happy to be alive.

Now here I am one year later as an atheist and I am miserable.

It all started when I saw The Da Vinci Code last year and after seeing it, it changed my life forever. It first made me really question the existence of God.

I researched the Da Vinci Code on the web but it was debunked by my online Christian friends very easily. However, I wanted to research religion more because the proof of God being real was still not given to me. So I researched everything there was on Christianly. Then I researched Judaism. Finally, I researched atheism.

I very, very was slowly going down hill as each day passed. It took a matter of months but in the end, atheism won and here I am, posting on my very first atheist message board.

No one but me knows my true feelings. People in my family still think I am religious and I have never publicly announced that I am atheist.

Now for my questions:

Was anyone else who was religious before becoming an atheist depressed and/or bitter at the world afterwards?

If so, how did you deal with it?

Did it ever go away?

Are you truly happy with being an atheist?

Is it normal to react this way?

Why do you think I am depressed?

Do any of you fear death?(My fear of death has gone up greatly. It actually makes my heart beat faster when I think about it.)

Does anyone else feel guilty when they kill or at least hurt religious people's views? Especially if those people are your family members?

For a few months now, every now and then I have half-ass debates with family members and acquaintances about religion and I pretty much stump them every time. I bring up points Richard Dawkins has brought up before and ask questions he has asked and give the same answers he has been asked and I even have my own questions and answers.

Infact, I was asking some of the questions and making the same comments Dawkins made before I watched his stuff but I have learned more facts and even more stories from the bible because of Dawkins that I never knew before. And I looked them up for myself and he was telling the truth.

Anyway, back to my last question: The looks on some of the Christians I've debated with make me feel bad. I silence some of them, I shock some of them with the things I put out in the bible that Dawkins pointed out to me and the looks on their faces....like I said, they get a little upset and some even get very angry.

And then I recall watching the debate the rational response squad had with Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort.....two men I once greatly admired and respected.........get destroyed in a debate....I was not being bias either. I was hoping so badly that the two men who I had so much respect for would save my faith. I wanted them to win, but they didn't. They even posted a BS "introduction to debate" video on you tube that was a total cope out to try and cover up that they lost.

Anyway, I feel bad. I hate seeing my family members looking upset....heck, I hated seeing Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort look upset.

I feel like I am taking away the hope these people have. When I was religious, I was a happy person. Now look at me. I've been angry, miserable and have been depressed for months.

Now granted...it took me a long time to get to the point I am at now so I have no doubt that one debate with a Christian isn't going to kill their faith but it might plant the seeds....and they might start doing research on the web like I did and then they found Richard Dawkins and it all goes down hill from there....

In a way, since become a nonbeliever...I am developing my own laws and I believe destroying someone for no reason is a crime in my book. Unless I am attacked by religious people, I see no reason for going after them.

And if they came out with me with little force, I'd respond with little force. If they come at me with full force, I respond with full force. Either way, I will always try to be civil and respectful.

I guess that's my very first law in my bible. lol.

Anyway, I had a friend on my space write me and ask me why I changed my religion to agnostic and I told him why and then he wrote me back with bible quotes and telling me to look up bible quotes and reminded me of a former teacher of ours that died a few months ago and almost sounded angry.

Should I reply back or let it go? At first, I thought I'd just let it go.

It's kind of like an old Simpsons episode when Lisa discovered Jebediah Springfield was actually not a hero, but a crook. But she saw how happy everyone was in Springfield and how he brought out the best in everyone and made so many people happy that she decided not to tell everyone the truth about him.

That's how I feel now. Religion can be very easily debunked. VERY easily...but if God makes people happy, then why take Him anyway?

Like I said, I myself fear death more now then ever and if people can get comfort by thinking their loved ones are living in the clouds up in Heaven or if they think they will go there one day and there is no reason to fear death...why take it away? I consider them lucky actually and telling them the truth is almost like telling the truth to a small child about Santa Claus. I just don't know if I am mean enough.

Right now, typing all this....I feel bad. Really...I have this very strange feeling as I type all this like I am murdering somebody. My stomach feels weird and so does my throat. My heart beats quicker too...and sometimes I actually feel sick to my stomach like I wanna throw up. Is this all in my head?

Or is God telling me something?

No, no.....I know it's in my head...it's just wishful thinking on my part.

You know, I almost posted this on a part of the forum where religious people are welcome because I want so badly to believe and want to be convinced that God is real.

But I don't want this topic to turn into a debate. I've seen enough of those and I pretty much already know what the religious people are going to tell me.

In closing, I don't like this new person I am. I want to be a Christian again, but I can't live a lie.

I wish I hadn't ever seen The Da Vinci Code because it planeted the first seed. Although I shouldn't just blame that movie. I use the net all the time and I'm sure in due time, I would have discovered atheism. But who knows, maybe I would have ignored it and stayed happier for a lot longer.

I think the reason why most people are still religious despite the overwhelming evidence that crushes religion is because they ignore the clips on you tube and this website and all the books. They wanna cover their ears and live in their fantasy world....and I can't blame them.

Thanks for reading. I'm sorry if this was long. Any advice will be highly appreciated.

And if there are any religious people out there lurking, I will welcome your prayers and private e-mails.

Thank you all again.


Zeeboe
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Watcher - Unlike all of

Watcher - Unlike all of those gods and unlike Harry Potter or any of those other examples you are using.....Jesus is the only one who made a prediction that came true.


ABx
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Zeeboe wrote: Watcher -

Zeeboe wrote:

Watcher - Unlike all of those gods and unlike Harry Potter or any of those other examples you are using.....Jesus is the only one who made a prediction that came true.

Correction: It was written that he made the prediction, likely after it was already obvious that it would not be forgotten anytime soon.

 Buddha supposedly made his own prediction to the contrary, and many would say it has come true as well.


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Quote: Hey Zeeboe, this is

Quote:

Hey Zeeboe, this is some interesting information that you might find useful...

Chrishna, of India, born on December 25, his mother was a virgin, mother's name was Maia. His uncle, Kamsa, the ruler at the time of his birth sought to kill him. Chrishna escaped death by being smuggled out of the area to safety (sounds like Herod and Jesus does it not?).

Mithra, of Persia, born on December 25, his birth was witnessed by Shepherds that brought gifts to honor him. He was styled as a Mediator between God and Man.

Horus of Egypt, born on December 25. His mother, Isis, gave birth to him in the swamp, she was warned by the god Thoth, to flee and conceal the child from the evil Set.

Buddha, of India, born on December 25, his mother's name was Maya she was a virgin. He was immaculately conceived, and at birth, he announced that he was a savior to the world. His birth was announced by a star. At his birth, he was visited by Wise Men who declared that they had seen Signs of his birth.

Beddou (Fot), was a god of the orient born 1027 BC, his mother was a virgin. The king sought to kill him at birth. The god child was saved by shepherds, and lived in the desert till he reached the age of thirty, at which time he commenced teaching his spiritual doctrine to that religion.

Quetzalcoatl, a god the Western Hemisphere, was born of a virgin. He sojourned in the wilderness, fasted forty days and was crucified. He was represented as the God of light.

Hercules son of the god Zeus, predestined by birth to inherit the throne of Argos. Hera tried to kill him while in his crib.  He was sent away to the countryside where he became a shepherd.

Attis, of Phrygia, his mother was a virgin, her name was Nana. He was a shepherd, and reported to have died by self emasculation under a pine tree. He was alleged to have risen from the dead at Easter i.e. The vernal Equinox.

Tammuz was hailed as the only begotten son of the god Ea. His mother was a virgin, by the name of Ishtar.

And you found proof for all of this where?  It seems like there are too many of them for this to be real.  Yes, I've seen lists like this before, where "Jesus is a myth because there are so many other myths out there like him."  I don't put much faith in them.  In my opinion Jesus did exist, he just wasn't god.  He claimed to be god, got some people to believe him, and "boom", you have Christianity.  Having him actually exist wouldn't be hard, there are plenty of people who have said and claimed much crazier things (take cults, for example, like scientology) and yet still get a large amount of people to follow them.

 

Zeeboe, for the last time, Abraham Lincoln was not racist.  Maybe that's what you learned from the f****n texans you lived with because they're pissed about not winning the damn war and having to give up their slaves, but if you want the truth, go read history, not "history books".  Here is a good place to start : http://www.sonofthesouth.net .

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


Zeeboe
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But the prediction had to

But the prediction had to have been made a very long time ago. So you really think the writers or writer was that confidence that Jesus and his words would live forever?And you say Buddha supposedly made the same prediction but where is the proof and Buddha's nearly as huge as Jesus. (No pun intended.)  For quite some time now, I thought that Jesus was in fact a real person. I just believe he was wise and a great leader. However, he became such a big deal that people made him out to be something that he wasn't and he died as a result.I also think as time went by...Jesus became a legend just like Robin Hood, King Arthur, Santa Claus and Count Dracula. And all those characters were based on real people. I think it's the same deal with Jesus.I think Jesus may have thought he was the Son of God and died for it but if that was the case, he was probably mentally ill. But as I said I think he may have just been a great leader who his followers loved so much that they thought he was the son of some made up God.I think when people wrote Jesus's story, they wanted to make it unique so they ripped off other people's stories and I think some stuff about His life was made up to make the story more exciting. And that happens even in this day and age when famous people's stories are told through movies.But that does not mean Jesus did not exist. The after effect he had is amazing. No other God or messiah has had a bigger impact. And no other religion's God can make the claim that their God predicted that their words would never be forgotten.This was before TV....so therefore any famous people could claim they will never be forgotten because we'd have them saying it on TV. But in the case of Jesus....all we have are words that could have been destoryed....And of course many famous people ARE forgotten. Not totally, but Jesus is as popular now as he was in his day.So I believe Jesus was a real person. And just like in the old days, people have made him and keep making him into something he is not. So please don't rule out that a man named Jesus who caused an uproar and died as a result did live on this earth once.And rather he was the Son of God or just a man or even a made up character...I think his words are the most important thing to remember and I think that life style he wants people to live is not a bad one.Maybe some of you have your parents to look to for wisdom but not all of us do, and yes there are many other heroes a person can have but in Jesus's time...there weren't many and while the morals Jesus taught may be stuff we already know...in those violent days, everything the people heard from Jesus was new and something they never heard of before so you can see why he became so popular.And also...if I was a writer and I wrote a book that changed people's lives...I'd want the cred and not give it to my character. So why wouldn't the writer or writers not take full cred?But this is a little off-topic. Even if Jesus was real, that doesn't mean he was the son of God or that God is even real.


Zeeboe
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But the prediction had to

[MOD EDIT - duplicate post removed]


Zeeboe
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lol. I REFUSE to get into a

lol. I REFUSE to get into a debate about Lincoln on here. Been there, done that. This is not a Civil War forum but if you really want to talk about this, I can tell you a place where you can find a civil war forum where people would love to chat with you about it.

 And bringing up the fact that I am from Texas is a cheap shot. I was raised to believe the civil war was about freeing the slaves and that the boys blue were all fighting to free the slaves. The truth is, many of them were fighting to preserve the union, make some money and have a little adventure because they thought beating the rebs would be fun and easy. If they thought for a second that they were fighting to free black people, they would not have joined because many of them were very racist. I know this because I read this book once called "Billy Yank" that had ACTUAL letters the yankees sent to their loved ones.

And I also also add that many of the guys fighting for the gray team...were NOT slave owners. They were poor dirt farmers defending their homes because many of the battles were fought in the South. I know this because I read ANOTHER book called "Johnny Reb" and it had ACTUAL letters the Rebs sent to their loved ones.

See, you believe in the history that was taught to you in school. History books don't mean a thing. You have to look at the facts.

 And the fact is...history was being predicted before it happened by Jesus.

I also would like to say that the bible has never once said that Jesus was born on December 25th. That was man who did that.

And this is another question that has not been answered yet but why is it that some of you believe the words of men who wrote history books and don't doubt their credibility but you do doubt the creditability of those who write the bible?I think a lot of you have faith in history books and where does faith come from?


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"I will say then that I am

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything." - Lincoln

Lincoln being some loving man who wanted to help the poor black people is a MYTH.

Now that is all I want to say in regards of Lincoln and the Civil War. Because I know first hand what a debate that topic can cause and this is not the time or place from a debate on the Civil War.

But my main point is that you cannot depend on history books to always tell the truth.


JCE
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Zeeboe wrote: But my main

Zeeboe wrote:
But my main point is that you cannot depend on history books to always tell the truth.

Then what on earth makes you think you can rely on the bible to tell the truth?  


Zeeboe
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Because Jesus was able to

Because Jesus was able to predict something that came true.

In other news....

One of the stupid, annoying Christians I have been chatting with via e-mail wrote me back after promising that if I asked him what his name was or where he was from again, he'd not reply to me. So I took him up on that offer and thought he'd finally go away. Well, he just e-mailed me and all he said was..."JESUS IS LORD" only the font was like size 36. So I wrote him back, also using font 36 and said "SO IS THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!"He also writes in ALL caps...I asked him to stop and he did but in his third and more hostle e-mail, he went back to ALL caps again.He also just IMed me and said: JESUS IS LORD..YOU HAVE BEEN WARNEDI was gonna IM him back and say "One, two Freddy's coming for you...." And the say something like FREDDY WILL BE IN YOUR DREAMS TONIGHT! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!But he got offline or blocked me..what a shock....not wanting to dare debate,I hate Christians like that but they are fun to destroy. Smiling You guys think I should e-mail him back with some more facts about what he believes or should I be mature and let it go? It's tempting to write him back...he's been quite the insane ass to me.LOL...it's funny...one minute, I am defending Jesus...the next...I am against him.I guess I am an "other". I am not a Christian or a non-believer. I am both...and sometimes those two sides of me...they war with each other...like right now. Having a battle in your own heart is not easy.


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I just checked the status

I just checked the status of the e-mail I sent to the crazy guy that was in response to what he said and it was deleted. lol.I wonder if that guy really is that crazy or if this is an act. lol.


caseagainstfaith
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I haven't read every

I haven't read every response here.  Basically, everybody is different, but, I found it somewhat difficult to transition to an atheist myself.  Though, it sounds like it is harder on you than it was on me.  I'm not you, so I can't really tell you how long it will last.  But I suspect there will come a time--maybe a week, maybe a year--but a time when being an atheist isn't something "new" and you'll get used to it.  But I expect it will take some time.

 

For me, hanging out in atheist forums like this one is useful, so I don't feel like the only one.  Also, while I don't suggest you dump all your theist friends, it would not be unreasonable to try to get some new atheist friends in addition.  Maybe joing a local atheist club.


Zeeboe
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Oh, I never had any

Oh, I never had any Christian friends so it's fine. I come from a Christian family, but that's it. I doubt I'll ever try to convert them either. They seem happy and comforted with their life style. If they however try to force their way of life onto me, I will fight fire with fire.


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Zeeboe wrote: Because

Zeeboe wrote:

Because Jesus was able to predict something that came true.

No, he didn't.  At best it was hearsay and not very reliable.  There are many words that are still with us and some of them date further back than the bible.  There would be more, but the Christians made sure that countless documents were destroyed.  It would seem that they set up a situation to ensure those words are still with us.  Hardly seems like a prophecy when you consider what they did in order to make sure it came "true".


Zeeboe
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What did they do to make

What did they do to make sure it came true? Being a Christian in the days when Romans ruled everything seemed like it was a very dangerous time to be a Christian.


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Actually the last couple

Actually the last couple centuries the Romans "ruled everything" they were officially Christian and repressively so.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Master Jedi Dan wrote: And

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

And you found proof for all of this where?  It seems like there are too many of them for this to be real.  Yes, I've seen lists like this before, where "Jesus is a myth because there are so many other myths out there like him."  I don't put much faith in them.  In my opinion Jesus did exist, he just wasn't god.  He claimed to be god, got some people to believe him, and "boom", you have Christianity.  Having him actually exist wouldn't be hard, there are plenty of people who have said and claimed much crazier things (take cults, for example, like scientology) and yet still get a large amount of people to follow them.

Zeeboe, for the last time, Abraham Lincoln was not racist.  Maybe that's what you learned from the f****n texans you lived with because they're pissed about not winning the damn war and having to give up their slaves, but if you want the truth, go read history, not "history books".  Here is a good place to start : http://www.sonofthesouth.net .

Well Dan, I will tell you exactly where I got my information.  Some of us fuckin Texans learned to read somehow and occasionally buy these things called books.  You can get these books yourself if you have the same fancy book learnin I managed to get despite me living in Texas which apparently makes me an ignorant person.  Pssst, you might be surprised to learn that not all Southerners had slaves and SURPRISE there were quite a number of Yankees that had slaves at the beginning of the Civil War.

1. The World's Saviors, by Charles Vail

2. The Worlds Sixteen Crucified Saviors, by Kersey Graves

3. The Golden Bough, by George Frazer.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Zeeboe wrote: What did

Zeeboe wrote:

What did they do to make sure it came true? Being a Christian in the days when Romans ruled everything seemed like it was a very dangerous time to be a Christian.

Egyptian non-conforming Christian texts (by Athanasius)

According to Elaine Pagels, in 367, Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria called in all non-conforming texts from the Christian monasteries of Egypt during his Paschal letter for that year. No such order is found in that work.

Repeated destruction of Alexandria libraries

The library of the Serapeum in Alexandria was trashed, burned and looted, 392, at the decree of Theophilus of Alexandria, who was ordered so by Theodosius I. Around the same time, Hypatia was murdered. One of the largest destruction of books occurred at the Library of Alexandria, traditionally held to be in 640, however the precise years are unknown as are whether the fires were intentional or accidental.[3][4] See Library of Alexandria: Destruction of the Library

Note:

Source found here

Information on Theodosius found here .

These are both Wiki articles but there is much more information out there regarding this issue if you care to look.


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Zeeboe wrote: I also have

Zeeboe wrote:
I also have to say in defense of Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort...I think some of you are being a little bias because you disagree with them and because they get your blood pumping because they do present a good argument. Do you honestly think they are both stupid? I mean, if you did...you'd shrug and laugh them off and not give them a second thought like I shrugged and laughed off the idiot Christians who e-mailed me...and they actually were idiots.I think anyone who can get another person really mad using only words must be doing something right.

Yes, I think they are stupid. Not just because they disagree with me. There are quite a few intelligent theists who post in the Atheists vs Theists section of these forums. They disagree with me but I respect the way the do it.

I take every opportunity to atack them, not because their argument threatens me, I welcome any argument that shakes my opinions, being thrown off balance insipres me to learn and re-evaluate. I've learnt to love that state. I atack them because they aparently have charisma, and if you read some of those history books, you'll see that madmen with charisma are dangerous. 

Ray Comfort gets me angry because I find arrogance to be the most offensive trait a human being can have. He has such smug certainty that he's got all the answers, and that everyone needs to hear about it. He thinks his answers are better than those of scientists who have studdied for years to become qualified and then researched for many more to understand the natural world, while all he's done is blindy accept an outdated book.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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Zeeboe wrote: But the

Zeeboe wrote:
But the prediction had to have been made a very long time ago. So you really think the writers or writer was that confidence that Jesus and his words would live forever?

 

Why not be confident. It's not a risky bet. If the words were forgotten then noone could call you on it. No one would remember the prediction to say that it was wrong. If anyonw said 'hey look that guy was wrong, his words were forgotten' you could just say 'no they weren't you clearly remember them'  

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Zeeboe
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Hey guys, I am gonna reply

Hey guys, I am gonna reply to your comments but I have this to say first.

 

I just watched a clip of Anton Lavey on you tube and I felt strangely comforted. lol. I like that he brings up that if you want to do something naughty, do it and don't feel bad. I ALWAYS felt bad when I was forced to lie or whenever I stole something or took the Lord's name in vain or masturbated or did any sin and there are a lot of sins in the bible. I used to feel bad because I could not be anything like Jesus and the bible says we're supposed to be like him.I've always known that the Lavey Satanists are actually atheists who enjoy freaking out Christians and that they just do what they do for show because they feel religion is all an act too or something like that. Maybe I should join the church of Satan. lol. I love Halloween, theater, horror and gothic related stuff.Anyway, I am having a better spell (right now) as an atheist and I owe that to Lavey. lol. Never thought the founder of the church of Satan would comfort me.I used to be suicidal oddly enough as a Christian and this just makes me appreciate life more because I only get one life and I do want to start living it and enjoying every second of it.I also like that I never have to fear Hell now which I used to fear. I know it makes know sense that I feared Hell but was also suicidal.As far as my fear of death goes...just have to remember the quote..."To concur death, you only have to die."I realize that was a fake Jesus but I am starting to think the Jesus from Jesus Christ Superstar is as real as the Jesus in the holy bible so I am gonna always label that as a Jesus quote.I work for the school district so I've had a lot of time to myself this summer and have way too much time on my hands. This subject is ALL I think about ALL the time now. It's becoming an obsession. I have to relax and focus on something else. I really need to get back to work but it'll be over a month before I go back.


Zeeboe
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I also hate that religion

I also hate that religion teaches you to love God more then your own family.Still, one of the worst days of my life was when I finally rejected God for the first time and knew he wasn't real. It is like breaking up and hell, I'll still not over my last girlfriend. I just get awfully close and attached and it's hard to let go and move on.I actually envy people who are ignorantly religious. They get to have a great comfort.


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Quote: But my main point

Quote:

But my main point is that you cannot depend on history books to always tell the truth.

Yes, this is a atheist/theist debate forum, but for the last time, I'm not relying on history books. I'm relying on stuff written during the period of the civil war.  Like I already said, I've read four years worth (the four years of the civil war) of every page of a weekly newspaper that existed during the Civil War and after.  (Harper's Weekly)  Here is the business I worked for when I did that.  And no, I never said that the Union soldier's main focus was the slaves.  It wasn't.  And a lot of the people in the south didn't own slaves, but they still imprisoned them, tortured them, and made them feel like hell during the civil war.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


Zeeboe
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I have to tell you all,

I have to tell you all, being an atheist does not make me feel good. It makes me feel very weird and uneasy. Being a Christian however makes me feel good and gives me a sense of comfort.


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Zeeboe wrote: I have to

Zeeboe wrote:
I have to tell you all, being an atheist does not make me feel good. It makes me feel very weird and uneasy. Being a Christian however makes me feel good and gives me a sense of comfort.

Why? 


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I don't know. I was hoping

I don't know. I was hoping someone could tell me.


SHLove
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Alright Zeeboe and

Alright Zeeboe and friends, lets sway away from the Civil War talk (since I know nothing about it, haha)...

Anyway, First off all, with all do respect Zeeboe, I again feel compelled to point out how bewildered you are sounding.  I read a post stating that your still holding on to your faith, then a post talking about being an atheist, then a new post about being both neither atheist or theist (and so on and so on)...If I can I must suggest that you sort out thoughts before declaring yourself as "one or the other".  I think the self-labeling may just be making your self more scatter-brained by persuading yourself to whatever "side" (theist or atheist) you feel you are on at the time.

 Now, to talk about other subject/topics you've brought up.  You say the reason why you want to hold on to your faith is because you fear death.  Understandable.  Just like everyone before me has already said it is perfectly normal for our species to fear death.  I have never been a victim to the god delusion so I can't tell you what it was like to finally object the fantasy about heaven. However, in my (very humble) opinion, the idea, or fact, of life without a heaven only makes life that much sweeter. We have one life, we live in the moment, you don't have to worry about imaginary, fantasy, places (heaven and hell) later after death.  By living in the moment you can enjoy life to the fullest and you don't take things for granted.  It's a beautiful thing.  By no means "welcome" death (suicide), but try not to fear it.  As said before it's just like before we were born...do you remember anything before you were born?  Of course, not...you felt no pain or emotions, just like when you (and I) die, we won't even know it.

Also, just stop and think about your idea of heaven for a moment.  Now, obviously I am not a believer but say I am for a second...

  My basic idea of what a heaven would be like (or how I picture the fairy-tale) is a beautiful landscape with the greenest hills, and a stream running in between them with crystal clear water.  Everything is at peace, there is no conflict, issues, hate, war, arguements, only what you love.  For eternity. 

Now, (forgive me) but I am going to quote one thing from the Buddist religion (and no, I am not Buddhist either, haha).  It goes something like this:  "Life is suffering".  Meaning that without pain, issues, conflicts, downs, hate (etc...) there would be no love, pleasure, ups, joy (etc...).  In other words, relating to our little "story" (which it is), even if we remembered our life on earth, after a while this fantasy land where we got anything we ever wanted would teach us not to acknowledge things like love, joy, pleasure, or the ups.  Now, I don't know about you, but to me an eternital life in a land like that would be so fucking boring I would rather have never been conceived in the first place.

 Okay, switching topics off of death and on to your "idols" in that has-been actor Cameron, and his little buddy that couldn't count his fingers if they were in front of his face.  These guys know nothing about any kind of science.  There understanding of evolution and biology as a whole was proved to be non-existent with there pictures of two different currently existing species of animals fused together.  If yourr faith stays strong because of what you think is "intelligent" people believing please man, get a hold of yourself.  Some of the GREATEST minds to ever exist (on your very, very, very small planet in an almost impossibly imaginable, colossal universe) were atheist.  I don't have the statistics at hand or even feel like looking them up after this long post (but you can), but it's something like 90+% of qualified scientists and another MASSIVE percentage of mathematicians are either atheist or agnostic.  These being two professions (or lifestyles to them) that are only based on facts and knowledge pretty much sums up the intelligence factor in atheism.

 I may post more later, but for now man...I need a break...hope I helped some.

-Simon


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Alright, I did whatI said I

Alright, I did whatI said I wouldn't...

 

"

"NATURE" SURVEY -- LESS AND LESS BELIEF

    The follow-up study reported in "Nature" reveals that the rate of belief is lower than eight decades ago. The latest survey involved 517 members of the National Academy of Sciences; half replied. When queried about belief in "personal god," only 7% responded in the affirmative, while 72.2% expressed "personal disbelief," and 20.8% expressed "doubt or agnosticism." Belief in the concept of human immortality, i.e. life after death declined from the 35.2% measured in 1914 to just 7.9%. 76.7% reject the "human immortality" tenet, compared with 25.4% in 1914, and 23.2% claimed "doubt or agnosticism" on the question, compared with 43.7% in Leuba's original measurement. Again, though, the highest rate of belief in a god was found among mathematicians (14.3%), while the lowest was found among those in the life sciences fields -- only 5.5%."

 

Taken from Atheist.org, but there's results like this all over the internet, just google things like "scientists atheist", or something.  Good luck.


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Grief?

I would suggest, both on experience and based on what you said, that you are experiencing a normal "grief" response to the "loss" of your religion and cherished ideas.  Have you heard of the stages of grief, identified by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross (and other professionals)?  The stages include, and not necessarily in any particular order:  denial, anger, bargaining, grief, acceptance.  Once you get to your acceptance stage, you'll feel a lot better, I promise. 

In the meantime, just surround yourself with supportive and kind people who have "been there, done that" and you'll do alright.  Avoid the judgers and avoid arguing with them until you feel healthier, happier, and stronger.  See if there's an atheist group in your town.  Sometimes, beleive it or not, the Unitarian Churches have such groups.  You might be able to find some more atheist friends through your local MeetUp.com, as well!

Eventually, you will feel better, and find friends who don't look or act weirded out about your atheism.  People who feel safe emotionally won't judge you harshly for what you believe, whether they agree with your beliefs or not.  Religion has a way of creating a sense of un-safety in many people when they are faced with a "doubting Thomas."  Just remember, they're the ones with the problem (brainwashing), not you!  

Good luck & best wishes! 

 


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May I please ask why some

May I please ask why some of you are so hostile towards Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort? I personally always respected people who were intelligent. Even if I didn't agree with them. Even when I was a Christian, I respected people such as Richard Dawkins and Anton Lavey...and even Adolf Hitler. I may not have agreed with his actions, but I do admit that he was a smart man.

As I said a few posts back, I think anyone who can cause such hostility just with words must be doing something right. If you watch that debate a few months back that the Rational Response Squad had with The Way of the Master, even though I personally believe that the Rational Response Squad won the debate, I'll give brownie points to the Way of the Master for remaining calm and respectful for the entire debate whereas with all due respect to Brian and Kelly...they did lose their tempers quite a few times and appeared to be angry and hostile throughout most of the debate.

And I'm not saying Christians don't lose their tempers when they are losing the argument. Believe me, I've seen first hand that they do. lol. But Cameron and Comfort never have and I still respect and admire those two men even though I do not agree with them anymore and I wish I could debate with them because so far, they are the only two men who I have ever seen remain calm during a debate even when they were losing. I'm serious too. I've seen a lot of debates before...in real life and on TV and both sides have always ended up appearing to either be angry or frustrated.

That is what I think I like about them so much. That is how I've always wanted to be. Respectful, intelligent and have self-control and only be assertive when it's absolutely necessary.

And Shlove, please don't get the wrong idea. I thank you for the response and appreciate the post but with all due respect, some of the greatest minds to ever live were religious too.

The thing about me ladies and gentlemen, I believe in being fair and if I'm going to be atheist...I don't want to be like how some atheists I've known both online and offline: Angry, sarcastic, disrespectful, mean, unfair, and refuses to listen to all sides.

I plan to be like how I was before, only this time I have traded and gone to another team, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna change my style of playing.


Teresa Nichols - I guess it's like going through the five stages of death. That's actually what I have been going through with my last girlfriend. lol. With her, I'm at the "depression" stage. I know this because I went through the other stages and now I am just sad in regards of her but at least I have the comfort of knowing that acceptance is next.

I think right now in regards of God, I am at the bargaining stage but mixed it's mixed in with the depression stage. I think I am at more of the depression stage though, but I still have a tiny bit of bargaining left in me.

It's very hard losing your girl and your God all around the same time.


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Quote: May I please ask

Quote:

May I please ask why some of you are so hostile towards Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort? I personally always respected people who were intelligent. Even if I didn't agree with them. Even when I was a Christian, I respected people such as Richard Dawkins and Anton Lavey...and even Adolf Hitler. I may not have agreed with his actions, but I do admit that he was a smart man.

Because they suck at arguing.  Have you seen them debate Brian Sapient and the other head guys here?  If not, try watching some videos of them doing it.  It's not pretty for Kirk and Ray. 

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Yes, I did watch it and I

Yes, I did watch it and I make a reference to it in my last post. There's more to a debate in my humble opinion then just being the one who presents the better argument, but I give points for attitude as well, especially in a debate that deals with the topic that was debated.


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I can't speak for anyone

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not a fan of Comfort and Cameron because they are not good at arguing and they are very, VERY misinformed about science. They do not understand evolution and they do not understand logic. Charisma is not the same as intelligence.

This would generally not be a problem, but they spread their misinformation to others. If they kept to themselves, I would be content to ignore them. 

Think about it. You are not a fan of history books because you believe they spread misinformation. Same deal.

Your resident OTD/S, Christina
A good scientist will always change her mind if new evidence is presented which gives her sufficient reason to change it.
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Was anyone else who was

Was anyone else who was religious before becoming an atheist depressed and/or bitter at the world afterwards?

I was brought up in a mildly religious family, actually my Dad's side is either barely religious or atheist/agnostic... The transition/decision wasn't very dramatic. So no.

If so, how did you deal with it?

Did it ever go away?

Are you truly happy with being an atheist?

Yes, I realize that I am free from a irrational view of the way the world works.

Is it normal to react this way?

Why do you think I am depressed?

I think you are going through a withdrawl of sorts not to mention the possibility of being shunned by the ones you have relied on as a support system all your life. You may encounter some of this but I think you may be pleasantly suprised at the reaction of some. You may find some in your family or friends that are closeted or low key about their non-belief... Your mileage may vary.... Shunned by friends, well, apparently they weren't your friends. Family, well that would be more traumatic. But what's the alternative? All you can do is be honest and true to your beliefs and let the chips fall where they may. Life goes on, like it or not.

Do any of you fear death?

I don't want to die, fearing it actively, letting that fear affect your life isn't healthy. It's inevitable at some point...


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I guess I just figure that

I guess I just figure that if you guys thought Cameron and Comfort were morons you'd laugh them off and not give them a second thought, which is how I reacted to the three idiot Christians who responded to my call for a debate on craig's list.

Question time: It has been pointed out that there have been many other Messiahs with the same story as Jesus but how do you know those people who wrote those stories didn't rip Jesus's story off? Do you know the order of all the Messiahs?


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Quote: Question time: It

Quote:

Question time: It has been pointed out that there have been many other Messiahs with the same story as Jesus but how do you know those people who wrote those stories didn't rip Jesus's story off? Do you know the order of all the Messiahs?

In my opinion, they're all fakes.  It's just a bunch of crap created to discredit Christianity.  Like we haven't already.  Until I see serious archeological evidence for it, I don't really have much faith in the stuff.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Zeeboe, there's a very

Zeeboe, there's a very important point you need to understand here.  Intelligence does not equate to rationality.  My mother is a very intelligent person.  She is also very religious.  Us atheists often degrade theists as being "idiots", but to tell the truth there are a LOT of extremely intelligent theists. 

They just aren't rational.

They are intelligent individuals clinging to irrational beliefs.  Look at where you are.  Is this called the Intelligent Response Squad?  No.  It is the Rational Response Squad.  People may say Cameron and Comfort are morons, I personally don't know or care, never really cared about them at all, but their intelligence doesn't count for squat.  Intelligence does not equate to rationality.

What about all the people that were theist until they were in their 20's or 30's and then lost religion?  Did they become more intelligent?  Intelligence is something you are born with.  Rationality has to be learned.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Zeeboe wrote: Question

Zeeboe wrote:

Question time: It has been pointed out that there have been many other Messiahs with the same story as Jesus but how do you know those people who wrote those stories didn't rip Jesus's story off? Do you know the order of all the Messiahs?

I know that at least three of them predates Jesus by over 1000 years.  Does that answer your question?

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Well, I'm gonna have to take

Well, I'm gonna have to take a page out of Master Jedi Dan's book and ask if you have any evidence that proves that.


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Zeeboe wrote: Well, I'm

Zeeboe wrote:
Well, I'm gonna have to take a page out of Master Jedi Dan's book and ask if you have any evidence that proves that.

 Well I've already posted the books I take my information from, so I'm going to have to take a page as well and ask if you have any evidence that proves Jesus was the first.

 If you expect me to sit here and spoon feed you your atheism because you are too fucking lazy to learn for yourself you are mistaken.  Go be a fucking christian for all I care.  I'm tired of your lazy ass search for whether to believe in religion or not.  Buy a fucking book and do your own research.

I'll take a reference from the bible that you so desperately need someone to suckle you from while you whine about leaving it and state "I wash my hands of you."  Good luck with being the most intellectually lazy potential atheist I have ever met.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Zeeboe wrote: Well, I'm

Zeeboe wrote:

Well, I'm gonna have to take a page out of Master Jedi Dan's book and ask if you have any evidence that proves that.

 

Watcher wrote:

Well I've already posted the books I take my information from, so I'm going to have to take a page as well and ask if you have any evidence that proves Jesus was the first.

 If you expect me to sit here and spoon feed you your atheism because you are too fucking lazy to learn for yourself you are mistaken.  Go be a fucking christian for all I care.  I'm tired of your lazy ass search for whether to believe in religion or not.  Buy a fucking book and do your own research.

I'll take a reference from the bible that you so desperately need someone to suckle you from while you whine about leaving it and state "I wash my hands of you."  Good luck with being the most intellectually lazy potential atheist I have ever met.

And when you ask for evidence, there is none.  You just get blown off.  See what I told you?

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


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Zeeboe wrote: May I please

Zeeboe wrote:

May I please ask why some of you are so hostile towards Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort? I personally always respected people who were intelligent. Even if I didn't agree with them. Even when I was a Christian, I respected people such as Richard Dawkins and Anton Lavey...and even Adolf Hitler. I may not have agreed with his actions, but I do admit that he was a smart man.

 I love science.

My year 5 teacher showed the class a trick. You set a piece of paper on fire and place it in a bottle. You sit a hard-boiled egg (larger than the mouth of the bottle) on top and wait a few seconds. The egg is sucked into the bottle. I thought it was the coolest thing I had ever seen and wanted to know everything about how it worked. My teacher explained that as the paper burned it consumed the oxygen in the bottle, which made the pressure inside the bottle lower than the pressure outside so the egg is pushed in by the external pressure which is can no longer be resisted by the internal pressure.

It that moment I realised that 'magic' is explainable and I wanted to know all about it and how to use it myself. Later I came to respect the processes of science and how it is the best way we have of determining fact. I saw that it was science that had not only provided technology but driven away superstiton. To me knowledge is very important, even to the point that I was offended by the idea behind the movie "men in black", that there could be people keeping knowledge from us, supposedly for our own good.

While learning about science I learnt some of the history of science. I learnt about the catholic church's atempt to silence the idea that the earth goes around the sun. Religion had attempted to destroy science. I was glad that it was in the distant past but that happiness was short lived because I was soon to discover creationists. At first I was just baffled by how some people could choose to believe an ancient myth over the result of the scientific method, then I got angry when I saw they were trying to replace the science in highschool classes with their myth. They were trying to destroy people's understaning of the natural world so they would have no choice but to accept the superstition.

As I looked closer I saw these creationists abuse science to 'proove' their myth. Their 'Evolution is just a theory' statements demonstate a (probably willing) failure to understand the scientific method. Their selective use of data. Their appeals to uthority and emotion. Their (once again probablly willing) failure to understand the theory they are trying to disproove. Their misapplication of thermodynamics and radiometric dating.  

The most terrifying thing is that people believe them, because most people don't understand enough about science to see the holes in their arguments that are so obvious to me.

So I hate evangelical creationists. Not just Ray and Kirk, they are small fish really. I hate the 'answers in genesis' team much more. Those jokers built a creationism 'museum'.

But let's look specifically at Ray and Kirk. They were awfully prowd of their banana argument "atheist nightmare":

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A

 He argues that the banana is so perfectly suited to human consuption that is had to be designed, therefoe god did it.

Well it turns out he was half-right:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aLqQttJinjo

 The banana was designed, but by human beings. In its natural state it had none of the wonderful designed features they point out, It was selctively bred and cultivated into the shape it is today. Ray and Kirk cant be expected ot know everything about the banana  but the lack of seeds should have been a hint that this is not the fruit in it's natural state, and if they were going to broadcast an argument based on it then they might have done some reading on the subject.

And he was so bloody smug when delivering this "atheist nightmare" he seriously though he was a genius, while the fact was that he didn't bother to even check up on his arugment because his supported his predetermined conclusion so must be correct.

It was the same with their crocoduck argument in the RRS debate (that I already covered). This smugly willing ignorance is one of the most offensive traits of creationists and those two are full of it. 

Quote:
 

As I said a few posts back, I think anyone who can cause such hostility just with words must be doing something right. If you watch that debate a few months back that the Rational Response Squad had with The Way of the Master, even though I personally believe that the Rational Response Squad won the debate, I'll give brownie points to the Way of the Master for remaining calm and respectful for the entire debate whereas with all due respect to Brian and Kelly...they did lose their tempers quite a few times and appeared to be angry and hostile throughout most of the debate.

 It's easy to remain calm when you're spouting nonsense and barely even listening to the opponent's arguemnt. Ray and Kirk even admitted later that they had never intended to debate, just evangelise, and if you watch again that's what they did. I think Brian and Kelly did amazingly well to stay as calm as they did as they tried to pull Ray, kicking and screaming back to the debate.

Quote:

That is what I think I like about them so much. That is how I've always wanted to be. Respectful, intelligent and have self-control and only be assertive when it's absolutely necessary.

 What was respectful about the way they conducted themselves? They set up the debate with the promise of debating an argument that they thought prooved the existence of god without resorting to the bible. They briefly presented a tired old argument that has been refuted many times before (and I'm certain they know that) Then started quoting the bible and trying to scare people into faith with threats of hell. Sure they gave it a respectful veneer wth their manner but their actions showed no respect.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


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Zeeboe wrote: I guess I

Zeeboe wrote:

I guess I just figure that if you guys thought Cameron and Comfort were morons you'd laugh them off and not give them a second thought, which is how I reacted to the three idiot Christians who responded to my call for a debate on craig's list.

Question time: It has been pointed out that there have been many other Messiahs with the same story as Jesus but how do you know those people who wrote those stories didn't rip Jesus's story off? Do you know the order of all the Messiahs?

I truly do not mean this to sound rude, but you obviously have a computer, right?  Maybe a library card?  Why don't you research the history of this information instead of taking someone else's word for it?  If you want a starting place, get the movie "The God Who Wasn't There".  It is excellent.

Oh, and as far as the debate goes, Mr. Comfort and Mr. Cameron requested the debate not the other way around. 


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I don't see how you can

I don't see how you can call doing days and days of research as being lazy. You don't know me or what I have been through or what I have studied. I already said I was not challenging you or trying to argue with you and all I was trying to do was learn and you learn by asking questions to those who know more about the topic you learn. The truth is, you don't have all the answers and you are telling me to go look it up for myself because you don't know. If you did, it wouldn't be a big deal to answer them.....you aren't really aren't sure about God are you Watcher?

I have had similar debates with Christians where they have gotten frustrated with me and I've had them with atheists and the exact same thing happened that you all just saw happen with Watcher and I.

Wanna know why? Because NOBODY *truly* knows the truth. It's ALL based on faith.

And where does that come from?

 

I plan to watch some DVD's about evolution and creationism, and I plan to watch The God who wasn't there. I have seen clips of it on you tube and so far, no one has explained the quote from the book of Luke, nor has any of the clips I have seen say what order the Messiahs have all come in. Did the notion that those people ripped off the story of Jesus ever once cross your minds?See, I don't think you guys are very fair. I am a very fair person and I always listen to both sides of the debate and take them into consideration and consider ALL the questions, but I don't think some of you have. I think some of you were so eager to leave God and live a sinful life that the very first thought provoking speech that came out of an atheist's mouth convinced you that there was no God.I think it needs to be said one more time that I am not religious anymore. I just want to make sure that I am heading down the correct path. Maybe all of you had no issues leaving God, but I do. Maybe some of you had bad experiences with religious people and churches just like I have, but not all preachers or churches I dealt with were bad. Many of you have admitted that you were happy when you left God, which makes me wonder if you were ever truly happy with Him and if you weren't, it makes sense that you left.I don't see why some of you have issues answering these questions. You had no problem before, but when the questions got harder...now you do have issues with them and want to dismiss me and tell me to go do the work myself and that you are know longer interested. Sounds like a Christian who says to the guy with too many questions to just pray about it and read the bible. Now if someone told you that, you'd laugh and think it was a cope out not to answer your questions. Same exact thing that is going on here. But okay, I'll gladly go do the research. I'll read some books, watch some films, read my bible and will find the truth.When I become passionate about something, I go for it and at the end of this journey, I'll be quite the expert on evolution, religion, atheism and creationism.Pray that I end up on your side. Eye-wink


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Quote:

Quote:

Wanna know why? Because NOBODY *truly* knows the truth. It's ALL based on faith.

Yes, it is. You can stand on the edge of the cliff and speculate, but sooner or later you're going to have to jump off the cliff, not 100% knowing what you're going to land on. Zeeboe, I believe that you are doing the right research. You're asking all the good questions that should be asked, because we all have but one life, and if we screw it up there is no second chance.

Since it sounds like you haven't found anyone good to debate with, I will try something. I will answer Sapient's challenge to Ray and Kirk to prove the existence of God (or, at least, a higher being who created us) without using the Bible or ANY religious text period. I will use rational thought only (and a bit of intelligence Smiling ). Here we go:

If I promised you I was going to give you a candy bar after an infinite amount of time, would I ever give you the candy? No, because we could never say, "An infinite amount of time has passed, now I'll give you the candy." Now, the same applies to anything else that is made, or that happens. Could an infinite amount of time have happened before right now? No, because then we would have never reached this point in time. So, we can conclude that time had to have started a finite amount of time ago. We can determine that time must have started some time ago, and before that there was no time. Now, as science has proven, matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So the question is, have matter and energy always existed? I would say no, because you cannot have matter without time, nor can you have matter without space. So we can conclude that matter/energy, time, and space had a beginning. So if you take away matter/energy, time, and space, then what do you have? Whatever was before matter/energy, time, and space. So, we don't know what created matter, time, and space. What we do know is that whatever it was is immensley powerful, extremely intelligent, it created everything that is needed to sustain life, and it created all the elements that we need to live. This something must be God.

Here is a video that sums this all up nicely, it basically has the same points I did but sums them up better, I just though it would be nice if you could both read the points and see them in this video. The person in this video is where I got these points from, I did not think of them myself.

Enjoy! Laughing out loud

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


JCE
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I said I did not mean to

I said I did not mean to sound rude - no need to get so defensive.

  What you asked requires a lot of time to link articles and such regarding all the different myths and the only thing I can offer is from the internet.  There are many texts that you can read as well, but the main point is that the reason they are not rip-offs of the jesus story is because they date prior to the story of jesus.  Here are some Wiki links to get your started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus-Myth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

 The bottom line is you can believe as you choose.  You seem to want everyone here to tell you what to believe and that just is not going to happen.  Keep researching.  


Susan
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Zeeboe wrote: I used to be

Zeeboe wrote:

I used to be suicidal oddly enough as a Christian and this just makes me appreciate life more because I only get one life and I do want to start living it and enjoying every second of it.

 . . .

I have to tell you all, being an atheist does not make me feel good. It makes me feel very weird and uneasy. Being a Christian however makes me feel good and gives me a sense of comfort.

Zeeboe, it sounds as if perhaps you have issues other than Atheist vs Theist.  

In one post you say that as a xian you were suicidal.  Not too much later you say being a xian makes you feel good and it gives you comfort.

It doesn't sound to me like it was very comforting. 

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neptewn
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Master Jedi Dan wrote:What

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
What we do know is that whatever it was is immensley powerful, extremely intelligent, it created everything that is needed to sustain life, and it created all the elements that we need to live. This something must be God.

We don't know this... Applying what we don't know to some form of diety is the definition of myth.

Myth: a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.

What do we know from experience is science has been carving out our understanding of the universe and in it's plowed fields lay the remains of these myths. Does that mean a God could not exist at the end's of the universe? No.

If you assume for example that I am making my decision based upon what we do not know, then this is why it is assumed to be a faith based decision. Within the boundaries of the natural universe we know there is no evidence of any God's, if someone want's to lay claim to the agnostic frontiers oneway or the other, then that is a measure of faith and the birthplace of myth.

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs


Zeeboe
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Read all the response and I

Read all the response and I thank you for them.You're right Susan. I will be the first to admit, I have problems like everyone else. I tried the shrink thing and it didn't work. All I can do is live and keep doing what I am doing. Study and ask questions, study and ask questions.If you all saw me on a Christian board or heard some of the chats I had with my Christian family members, you'd think I was an atheist. But please believe me when I say I am an "Other". I'm pestering Christians with annoying questions too if that comforts some of you.But it's going to take years of doing stuff like this before I pick a side and I'm sorry if my questions frustrate some of you. I don't want anyone to do anything for me and I don't want anyone to tell me what to think.My decision about God is going to be one of the biggest decisions I ever make and I want to be 100% sure I am on the right side. Because as of right now, thinking and living like a non-believer...I have my doubts. But when I was a Christian, I had doubts about God too. So it's very important that I research all the topics about this and ask all the questions I can think of for both sides.For days now...this is all I have done is sit on my computer, researching and reading and watching clips and staying up very late to to watch and read them. I'm serious too...I spend all day and all night doing this stuff. Posting on boards and trying to learn. That is how serious I take all this. I'm starting to look like a cave man now.And in case some of you are wondering why I don't work is because I work for the local school district and since the summer is here, I have no job until school starts.Anyway, I am gonna go try and do the sleep thing now and judging by my face, I should think about doing the shaving thing as well.I should even try to go 24 hours without using this computer because ever since all this nonsense started, I can't get away from the computer or stop thinking about this subject.


Teresa Nichols
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"those two men even though

"those two men even though I do not agree with them anymore and I wish I could debate with them because so far, they are the only two men who I have ever seen remain calm during a debate even when they were losing. I'm serious too. I've seen a lot of debates before...in real life and on TV and both sides have always ended up appearing to either be angry or frustrated."

Zeeboe/gilson - You do realize, I hope, that "those two men" have access to heavy duty medications, just as most of the upwardly mobile religious zealots (and big fat idiot-radio stars) on the planet do, right? (You know about whatsisname and the oxycotin, right?)

Getting upset about an issue does not make one's argument less valid; it is getting upset that simply distracts the listener, which sometimes is useful, and sometimes not. How that distraction is used to manipulate is what one ought to pay attention to, not the distraction itself - at least in the major sound bites . . .


MattShizzle
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Please don't make videos

Please don't make videos autoplay. It's annoying - especially to those of us listening to something else.

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