Ghosts???
Offline Upon arguing with some Christians about God, they always seem to raise the issue about ghosts when they are locked in a corner and cannot answer the questions I give them. Whenever they give up, they always fall back on the statement, "anyway, even if the bible was all wrong, there is proof of God because ghosts are real", and I reply back with "there is absolutely no evidence at all for the existence of ghosts", and yet they will continue to argue "yes they are real heaps of people I know and trust have told me true stories about them seeing ghosts and they wouldn't make them up!
So from leaving this argument stunned by their belief in ghosts also, it made me want to see what the atheist community thinks about this.
Do you believe in ghosts? Are ghosts a contradiction to atheism? What is an excellent argument against the existence of ghosts that I could use next time to defend myself?
Thanks all.
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As I have said before, "atheism" refures to the lack of belief in deities. But when one considers the scientific absurdrity of the "super natural" sky daddy, how would a "ghost" be any different?
Both claims incorperate the idea of a disimbodied being with no physical body or brain. If an atheist believes in ghosts, to me, they might as well pick a deity and believe in that as well. Bunk is bunk weither you are talking about vampires, ouiji boards, ghosts or deities.
If Thor making thunder makes no sense, why would a floating entity with no physical body be any different?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
The word "ghost" can be used in a lot of different ways; so, it is difficult to give an absolute answer. I will meander through some of the ways that we use the word in the English language.
First, if you break up with a significant other and find out that person gave you the clap, then the ghost of their memory will be with you for awhile.
Second, if you double expose a negative, you can form an image which appears to be a ghost. In fact, if you do this by accident, it is referred to as "specteral photography."
Third, we refer to a ghost as the disembodied soul of a corpse. This is ludicrous. One would need to prove the existence of the soul, which is impossible. I won't begin down the nauseating path of Cartesian dualism.
Fourth, our universe is complex. It is suggested that gravity effects the space-time fabric of the universe. So, one could potentially see someone from long ago in such a well based on the folding of that fabric. However, those kind of gravitational situations do not occur on Earth; so, this would not be an explanation.
Never accept someone's personal experience as proof. I lived in the same house as my Mother for 17 years. She claimed there were ghosts all over the house. I never saw a thing, even when in a room at a time when she claimed to see one. See? It is just nutty.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
No. There is no real evidence. Hearsay and hoaxes, same as other pseudoscience.
i really am unsure of this topic as a christain. like stated before "ghost" is a really fuzzy word. i have had some experiences with them but nothing that can be proven. it could be any amount of things from sleepiness, "caught up in the moment" or a more developed sense. people that have seen or heard ghosts have their own personal proof.
my art teacher that was agnostic/atheist and he lived in a house with a causal haunting. they said it just became a part of the family. all his life he remembers the sound of boots walking in the attic. him and his father tried everything they could to figure it out. once his father ran upstairs.. went into the attic, closed the door and turned out the lights. he waited for 30 minutes without any sound, but as soon as they went back downstairs and started watching tv the footsteps started up again.
he even shared a funny story that when he was on break from college he stayed in the house while his parents where away on vacation. it was late at night and he was reading a book and he heard the footsteps. being accustom to it he paid it no mind. then suddenly the door opened and the footsteps started walking down the stairs. he said he jumped up out of his chair and ran out the back door.
what if an atheist stayed 3 nights in a house with overwhelming "evidence" of a haunting? the real scary places in other countries... that would be an interesting challenge. heck, i'd even come with you.
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
The way I have heard it explained that makes sense to me is a "memory". Living things emit energy and there are certain rocks, quartz for example, that retain a certain amount of energy from the environment. A small earthquake or shift in the land can cause the rock to release the energy in the form of whom ever was there before.
Who knows? I've seen things before I certainly cannot explain.
That is no excuse to make up an answer. There is no such thing as a disimbodied being. "Ghosts" are nothing more than people's fears playing mind tricks on them.
Did it make sense to say Thor did it when people didnt know what thunder actually was?
You may have seen something you couldnt explain. Just say, "I saw something I couldnt explain". That would be the only honest answer you can give.
When I was a kid I thought I saw Ghosts too. Now how is it not only did I see my dad standing at the end of my bed, when I was a kid. But later also saw my mother at the end of my bed, who is still alive.
Both felt real, but I now know that it was merely my subconcious and dreamstate mixing with my open eyes.
If you want to stick in an answer badly enough, even when there is a natural explination, you will.
Knowing what a brain is and what it's functions are and what constitutes a human being, I can only laugh at "Ghosts" which are nothing more than another myth that people are so desperate to believe that their brains delude themselves into buying it.
I've seen "strange" things too. But I dont jump to conclusions or incert a superstition in when I dont know.
Seriously, if anyone believes in ghosts to me, they might as well believe in the Flying Spaggetti Monster or Pink Unicorns. It is the same superstitious stuff religion is made of. People want to believe it so desperately so they do.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
First you say "That is no excuse to make up an answer." and then say "Ghosts" are nothing more than people's fears playing mind tricks on them." That doesn't make sense. People's fears would be an answer.
Whatever the reason is for somebody seeing "Ghosts", there is an answer.
Me personally, I'm comfortable with I don't know because I don't. The answer I provided above was from Ghost Hunters on Sci-Fi. I thought it sounded as good as any other answer.
If you think I am going to buy a "thinking entity" without a real physical body or brain, please lay off the crack pipe, or pick a deity to worship. It's all the same to me.
ZZZZZZZZZ,
Ok, you dont believe in Zues or Jesus. Big wooptie doo. Hocus pocus is the same and a rose by any other name will still be a rose and I call a duck a duck.
"I am not like them" Yea, I read Incredible Hulk comics, NOT SUPERMAN!
Ok.......myth lover.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Ooh, ghosts! "Paranormal activity" is one of my favorite areas of hoo-doo. I the spirit (heh) of backing up everyone who finds these things as hokey as I do I'll run down the list of explanations for various phenomena:
1. Elecronic Voice Phenomena (EVP) - The sonic equivalent of finding faces in the woodwork or seeing shapes in the clouds. You play with noise enough you're going to end up with anything that sounds like something.
2. Ouiji boards/spirit glass - Idiomotor response created by the expectation of something happening and the tension on the selection device. The pressure on the device makes it hard for it to remain still, and since ordinary muscular-noise cancelling responses are disuaded by the operator the expected directions remain.
3. Ghost cameras/light balls - Essentially these are artifacts created up by imperfect equipment used under bad conditions (poor lighting, dust, lens flare, bad exposure, bad film, etc.).
4. Seeing/hearing things - It is entirely possible for a sane, well rested person to see weird stuff. There are several factors which increase the likelyhood of this: places with very low levels of ambient noise, expectation of something weird happening (especially when experienceing environmental malaise), low levels of ambient noxious gas, certain types of micro-organisms which grow in old or climatologically conducive homes, the list goes on.
5. Sleep disturbances - This is one I'm especially we equipped to deal with; I have a strange sleep schedule which promotes all kinds of strange mental junk. I've experienced sleep paralysis several times, one of which it felt like there was a presence in the room. Another time it felt like someone was sitting on my bed. Another time it felt like my "soul" was being sucked out through my face. What happens is the drug which paralyzes you while you sleep (since you shouldn't be acting out your dreams) fails to metabolize before you wake up. Thus, your concious mind begins recieving input from the outside world before your body is able to move. Also, 9 times out of 10 your subconsious hasn't even given the command to metabolize the drug - it's still goofing off! So instead of your subconsious translating the outside world as it normally does, your concious mind is left naked without any extra processing. It's used to recieving data in packaged chunks, not raw. So for a few minutes you struggle with what you're seeing, unfocused and experiencing all the numbness of touch and sound at once. You hear static, you feel nothing, and you see a whole lot of hazy blobs. It'd be neat if it wasn't so frustrating being unable to move.
Huh? Who said anything about a "thinking entity" or worship? Confrontational much?
Never mind I get it, in place of cordial discussion insert personal insult/crackhead reference here. Gotcha.
Well, yes. Living things emit heat and have small potential differences in their skin and internals. However, none of this energy contains any of our mental processes. If it did, we'd have a much easier time reading people's thoughts with equipment.
Quartz crystals are generally peizoelectric. That is, they generate small amounts of current when pressure is applied to them.The original sonar devices were created with quartz crystals because they are excellent natural microphones. Really, the same is true for any elastic material. However, NO ENERGY IS STORED. Allcaps because that is the important part. Within the earth things are basically at a ground state and therefore cannot store any complex information.
My best guestimate on the storage capacity of earth is something like several cubic yards per bit. The properties of any intelligible emotion would require many orders of magnitude of cubic miles of earth, let alone the proper sequencing of them.
All very good explanations. I would imagine 99% of all paranormal activity is explained by these phenomena.
Include also pipes in the wall, heating A/C ducts contracting and expanding and the like.
I read an article once where a HVAC unit in an office building had a bad bearing in it's fan. It emitted a low frequency noise that made people feel uncomfortable and a sense of someone watching them. Apparently the noise was just the right frequency to not be consciously audible but fooled the brain into feeling these sensations.
easy brian, legion was only stating his opinion. you did kind of come across as saying "this is the way it is NO EXCEPTIONS". that's not fair to do that to anyone, theist or atheist alike. i know that you are a smart and rational individual, you can present facts instead of insults.
legion brought a very valid point and personally i agree with his answer, we don't know. i'm not going to tell someone they are smoking crack because they do or don't, that would be childish and immature... but i'm sure legion will have his own reply.
i'm bet brian wouldn't mind staying in a haunted building overnight eh?
(btw, ghost hunters on scifi is an awesome show. they try to approach it very rationally and scientifically looking only for facts.)
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
MUSTARD!!! did you find the diamond yet?!?
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by the way, good information on the topic. very well organized, its cool to see some reasonable and rational answers to this.
...have you checked your sock drawer? behind the dresser??
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
Ok, I'm sorry. I thought adults could provide answers other than Harry Potter/Petter Pan.
Look, it is not a matter of "insulting" anyone. But there is a file 13 and when something has been debunked to no end, there is no need to refrain from not throwing it in the trash can.
"Ghosts" is as simple as the shaddow on the wall, you were afraid of as a kid. Unfortunatly some still think "thoughts", "brains" "human flesh" continue after death, other than the memory others carry for it.
Do you want me to lie to you and say I think that holds any water when I dont? It holds as much validity to me as claiming I can fart a Lamborginni out of my ass.
I cant and wont lie to myself, and do a disservice to those who feel otherwise by lying to them. It is not a matter of liking the person. It is a matter of what they can prove.
If I am not going to give a person a pass because they claim "Allah" knew about plate techonics, what makes you think, because someone doesnt follow other less accepted hocus pocus, that I will leave my skepticism at the door?
It is quite simple. If it sounds too good to be true. If a duck is a duck.
You are trying to make me sound hatefull when all I am doing is saying, WAKE UP!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Thanks.
Ghost Hunters is awesome. They also do debunk quite a bit of what they come across, but some stuff remains unexplained.
Here is the quote from the show I was referencing:
"Brian and Steve trace high EMF readings in the McGregor Room to an electrical box in the basement below. In the Billiards Room (where parties have been heard), Brian wonders what the building is made of; residual hauntings are often linked to areas that contain a lot of quartz, which absorbs the "energy" of past events to create the residual hauntings."
i applaud your reply brain. thank you for an honest and rational explanation.
...though if a Lamborghini does come out of your butt, i'd personally sell it and get on with my life. the insurance would be expensive.
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
I've heard more proof for ghost, however those proofs don't really hold up and a ghost existing doesn't automatically mean a god would exist.
This is like saying if bigfoot exists then his aliean masters exist...
The closest thing to a ghost I've seen is a door being blow open and I felt the wind go through to store from back.
One thing I can say for the "ghost hunting" community is that they are at least trying to find hard evidence.
Oh, I know where it is. The trick is getting down there!
Also, on the subject of the HVAC squeaky noise, I imagine if you heard this noise day in and day out you might begin to feel weird too.
I'll make you a deal. If one does, I'll split the profits with you. But, you have to clean it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
ewww!! lol, okay. i'll take it to a drive though car wash... get the stank off it.
I went to a "haunted house" in Virgina Beach once. It is still there as far as I know. Having been in one before, when I paid my ticket, I explicatly shouted up the stairs leading into it, "If anyone shouts at me or jumps out at me, I wil punch them in the face".
Funny how the dissimbodied boogiemen suddenly didnt want a lawsuit. I walked through it unstartled and unmolested.
WHY? Because the employees didnt want confrontation.
Being scared by sudden unfimilar things, doesnt make Icabod Crane or Mr Scrudge and his three Ghosts real. It is normal for any human to jump in reaction to something that SUDDENLY is unfamilar to them.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
And yet, I still want to see 1408.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.