Just a quick question
Hello. I'll be up front and let you all know that I am Christian. I actually found out about his group while doing some research for a paper entitled "Why I believe in Jesus." (I am still somewhat at a loss for actual meat that could be in the paper, but that is beside the point.) Anyway. I came on here to see if I could find something that might spark it, I tend to drfit toward intelligence. Unfortunately, in my life I have never actually met any "intelligent" atheist. What I have found other wise are people who are emotional wrecks that just don't want to admit that there is a God. They treat it much like a child having a tantrum and can't give any solid evidence. I was hoping that I might get a few people in here who would be willing to share why they believe the way that they believe. There is so much Zeal and Passion in disproving God in general and I was just wondering where the motivation came from...
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I don't think I need to point out that insulting the entire atheist community with your arrogant, condescending tone in your second post is definitely looked down upon here. Now, if you want to know why I do not believe in God it is because there is absolutely zero evidence for God, and not only that, but the concept of "God" is utterly meaningless. Which is what I showed
here
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/7720
here
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/philosophy_and_psychology_with_chaoslord_and_todangst/6279
and with todangst here
http://www.rationalresponders.com/supernatural_and_immaterial_are_broken_concepts
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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LoL... I'd say you might be well on your way towards atheism, but that's beside the point...
Ask anything you like. We have lots of very intelligent people here. We have several resident philosophers, an ancient history and language expert, some astronomers, biologists, cosmologists, logicians, mathematicians, psychologists...
Odds are they're keeping their mouth shut because they realized long ago that they'd be ostracized for their beliefs.
Please be very careful making this kind of judgment here. Very few of the atheists here left the church because someone hurt them. Most of us left for intellectual reasons, and it's pretty insulting when people assume we are "emotional wrecks" or "running from god." How would you feel if I said that you were a theist because you're too weak-minded to function in a world without an invisible friend to help make your decisions for you? Insulted? Well, that's how we feel when we hear the same kinds of things. You keep it intellectual, and so will we.
You're new, so you've not been privy to the thousands of repetitions of the sentence: "The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the claimant." We have tons of evidence that every single argument for the existence of god is flawed. If you think you have good evidence that god exists, bring it forward, and we'll show you what's wrong with it. Until then, we have no more obligation to believe in your god than in unicorns.
In my case, it was simply applying the same critical thinking skills I would use when say, buying a car. Ask for proof. If there's no proof, move to the next lot, cause someone's trying to fool you. I was raised in church, and was a Christian until I studied science, logic, and critical thinking. Once I saw that it was just mythology, I left.
Same thing as before. We don't disprove god. We point out that there's no proof of his existence. Maybe this is where the atheists you've known were failing you.
Ask yourself this: Why don't you believe in Allah? There's a book that says he's real, millions of followers who have personally experienced him, and for the record, there are more Muslims than Christians in the world, so Allah gets the popularity vote, too!
So, why don't you believe in Allah?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I find it interesting that you have to do research to figure out why you believe in jesus. If you believe in god and jesus, don't you already know why?
You might want to be careful if you want to hold onto your beliefs because many here found that the more they studied and researched, the less they found the idea of belief in anything supernatural compelling.
Take some time and poke around in the forums.
You might even be interested to see why some feel that being an atheist has made them a better person here.
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Hello and welcome to the fora, Fossa_girl04!
I am going to assume that you are more interested in what we do not believe rather than what we do believe.
In order to understand why I do not believe in any religion, you need only examine the beliefs of any religion other than your own; say, Islam, or Scientology, or Mormonism.
Are you sceptical about the Moslem belief that Mohammed rode a magical horse to the sky? Or the Scientologist belief that our bodies are inhabited by the brainwashed souls of dead aliens? Or the Mormon belief that a Jewish civilization existed in America before the arrival of the Europeans? I am sure you are. In fact, you do not even need to rely on Christian theology to dismiss these ideas as absurd.
I think you will agree with me that common sense disproves all other religions but (Judeo-)Christianity, and indeed that these religions are an affront to reason and human dignity. The difference between us is simply that I apply the same the reasoning to Christianity and arrive at the same conclusion.
For me it is not about 'God' (which is not a coherent concept in the first place) but about religion. Religion is a man-made evil and a great injustice. Its eradication is the moral duty of every thinking person.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/my_deconversion_and_what_led_to_it
The reason for the zeal and passion, if there is any, is the destructive force that religion is. Destroying it would be good.
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Where did you meet these unintelligent atheists, church?
In my experience, it is the Christians that are emotional wrecks. Not always, but by comparison and more often than not. Many people try to justify their religion not on the basis of it being true but on the basis of it being comforting. I have no such beliefs and reasonably comfortable. It makes me wonder how traumatized these people must be are who NEED to believe total nonsense in order to feel comforted.
But this is what I would expect from a religion that teaches things like:
You are born to go to hell due to things that happened a long time ago that you had no control over
Unless you "believe in" one particular person, and that this person is not a person but a god (yeah right), and where not believing is yet more grounds for going to hell
That you have free will but only in order that you do as you're told, or else (you guessed it) you go to hell
And that the supreme being who authored of these threats "loves you"
With firends like that, who needs enemies?
Finally, as far as not believing in god. I don't need reasons to not believe something. If you want me to believe you then it's YOU who need to provide reasons for me to believe. I personally have never found any reason to believe in god.
Well, when you get to asking questions, I'll be happy to answer as bluntly and honestly as I can.
But you'll have to actually ask questions. You haven't yet.
Wow, I really wan't to make a joke here, but I'll let it pass with a wink and nudge for now.
Odds are you have, you just didn't know their personal views. We are something between 3 and 10 percent of the population. You HAVE met atheists - they could be your friends or even your family - and don't scoff at that; the majority of my family does not know my beliefs. Why do you think that is?
IOW, you've never taken the time to get to know an atheist or attempted to understand one.
Well, welcome to the forum. You can learn a lot hear if you're willing to be open and honest.
Start asking questions, be respectful and you'll recieve the same in kind, don't preach, rather discuss and explain. That's one of the first things you need to learn. None of us will respond to emotional pleas or Biblical ridicule - we require logical, understandable argumentation.
If you are open and honest, you'll have no problems here.
Welecome.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
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Maybe your loss for 'meat' is because you really do not know why you believe in jesus.
If you really 'drift' toward intelligence, the last statement certainly shows a reverse of that. Blanket statements do not show intelligence, rather they illustrate ignorance.
Clearly this is projection.
I am incapable of believeing in a god.
I know that this statement sounds a bit rude and ignorant... and maybe this particular poster is just trolling here....
But I may have said the same thing when even when I was in college. (though I think I would have bee a bit more sensible)
Up until college, (christian college for me) nealy ALL of my good friends had similar religous beliefs that I had, as well as my extended family. And while I'm pretty sure that I had technically known intelligant atheists, many atheists don't wear their atheism 'on their sleeve' like many religous people. Even when I had my arguements with atheists, I FELT as if they were ignorant. "Can't they just see the light like I can? They must be a bit dumb..." I had 'met' many more atheist strawmen portrayed in religous teaching than I had ever actually met real atheists.
In this way, the ignorant statement this person made MAY actually be logical given this person's life experience.
www.andyhanson.net
Quite so, which is why I asked if this person met these unintelligent atheists in church. What kind of atheist would you expect to run into hanging around in churches on a regular basis?
The uphill battle for atheists is dealing with stupid shit like this. They're sure they're against it, they just don't know what it is.
*shove*
Whoops, did I do that? Oh well, now you're all the way in.
Hm no response in awhile...I guess this was just a troll.
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You need to stop equating "atheist" with "rebel". Even withing the atheist community many cringe at a person using that word to discribe themselves when, after we talk to them, they are just as shallow in their thinking as a weekend worshiper, which is what you sound like.
Forget what you have baught, and dont assume because someone is challenging the claims you make, that they want to give you cooties.
Just by reading this post it says to me that you have very little contact with the atheist community other than the stereotypes you have been sold.
You certainly dont have to buy what we say. In fact we would insist you question us. But in turn, be willing to question yourself.
Life is not a James Dean movie. Life is not a theist in one car and an atheist in another seeing who can get closest to the cliff without going over.
So spare us the emotional appeal garbage. People switch religions and give up religion or adapt a religion all the time.
This is about one thing and one thing only. Evidence. Either you have it or you dont.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Reminds me of a fundy impression I used to do:
I M NOT NO FUDNY. WUTS A FFUNYD?
LOL!! Thanks!
lol. Wow. Thank you all for being so open. I want to let you know though, that I am not a weekend worshipper, I am a little more, but I may share that at a later date. I'm kinder youngish so still learning the "no vocal tone" communication thing. I have pursued atheists outside of church. I have had informal debates with college professors and public speakers who prided themselves on their "intellect" that had disproven Jesus. THOSE are the people I have found. I have also gone to coffe shops, bars, and clubs in pursuit of this view and those were where I found the tantrum people. (More in coffee shops than anywhere else.)
I actually signed up in here because it seemed like a free thinking and tolerant area where I could get some good questions answered. I guess the where to start is tough. Things like: without religion, what standard do we stack ourselves up to? What DOES define morals if not a religious belief set? What about archeological findings coming to light that do give greater evidence of biblical events having taken place?
Something I would like to ask since I have the nice peoples attention....
I DO NOT want to evagelize while I am in here. However. I hate what the church has become: unbiblical. I do like to share scripture to prove that. I also like to kinder do a devils advocate type thingy and use scripture and things like that that I have found to get a conversation really rolling. Is there a way that would be good to present this view, or should I just add a tag-line to all my posts?
Why am I an atheist? I decided as a Christian to examine the evidence for my beliefs and to discredit evidence against them, but wound up seeing absolutely no evidence for Christianity or any other supernatural concepts, and had to finally concede that I had been duped since birth.
Hmm... You asked three nice little questions. The answers are all over this site and many others, but I'll give you a few thoughts of mine anyway.
Society. How many people go consult the bible every time they DON'T murder, or DON'T steal, or share a toy, or donate to a charity? Not many, if any. People learn that hurting others, stealing, or being mean or whatever are wrong LONG before they read their holy texts, if they ever do. People learn to be nice in the same way. Can you imagine a society that honored theft and murder lasting a long time? It's virtually impossible, and it would make life miserable and hard for its members.
Again, society. This doesn't mean all morals are relative, although some may be. If killing other humans was considered the right thing to do, there wouldn't be many people around after a while. If lying were honorable, we'd still be stuck in the dark ages. Considering that almost no one has to refer to a bible to know what is right or wrong, I would think that this question should be less common than it is, but alas.
What findings are you talking about? Did they find the flaming sword from Eden or something? When I was a Christian, I heard (and still hear) arguments like this all the time. WHAT FINDINGS? And how do they support the bible's holy origin? Other common claims are, "Many scientists are now starting to doubt the theory of evolution" or "America is the best country in the world" and any number of other unsupported claims of this type. It's very reassuring to hear these kinds of things when you're a believer, but when you ask for details, or how it has anything to do with the bible's divinity, then you wind up with no more support for your belief than you had to begin with.
I took time to answer your morality questions, because they were worded in the way I asked them when I began questioning my religion, and I gave the first answers I came up with after some honest reflection. There are many more responses than those. Take a look through the forums on this site, and on other freethinking websites, and you'll be sure to find more eloquent, elaborate, detailed answers, with far more than what I just wrote.
Do You Worship an Evil God?
Why? What is it that you'd like to know?
Morals has to do with society, not god. There are plenty of threads that go into depth about the questions you're asking. I'd recommend reading them.
Welcome to the forum.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Whenever someone brings up morality without religion/god I always send them to deludedgod's thread, Morality without God
I for one hope the church keeps getting less and less biblical. That's a pretty sick little book to base a life on, if you hadn't noticed.
And what did they tell you that caused you to label them as unintelligent?
What we deem right or moral as a society. Religion is a garbage yardstick to measure right and wrong with anyways.
The movie Titanic was based on a real ship that crashed and sank. Every Stephen King book references real places, usually in Maine. The book, The Time-Travellers Wife takes place in numerous real-life places in Chicago and Michigan. You catching on???
Actually, having religion turn more biblical(or more koranical) would result in the greatest disaster in human history. Bible literalists are either ignorant, stubborn, or scared. Without exception.
The muslims would like to point out that bible scripture proves nothing. The koran is the true word of god. The Jews would like to point out that the koran is wrong. The methodists think the presbyterians have misinterpreted scripture. the catholics think the baptists are nuts. The mormons think you're all wrong, and would like you all to watch Big Love on HBO.
I wouldn't bother if I were you. Many of the people here know the bible better than you do, and there have been countless threads in which scripture has been shredded into a million pieces. Scripture proves nothing, and will carry no weight with anyone here. Save your breath.
"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."
Quoting scripture around here doesn't fly very well because it doesn't carry any weight to those that are not theists. It's just a book. Nothing special, just a book.
If you wish to debate scripture, I suggest the Bibical Errancy forum.
As for the "tantrum people", it was probably just an overdose (or lack of) caffeine.
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By the way, you never answered my question.
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EDIT: There's a lot of creationist bullshit that claims we found men's footprints alongside dinosaurs, and that the great flood happpened, and blah blah blah. All is nonsense, at best. Here is part 1 of a video that explains evolution and debunks the dino footprints, here's part 2. Here is parts one two and three of a series of debunks on the flood and Noah's Ark. DISCLAIMER: He does miss the fact that there were 14, not 2, of each "clean" animal.
To present a view like that...just don't say or do anything that contradicts it.
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This is an excellent question. I'm interested in hearing your answer as well.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
You mention society being the basis for standards and morals. But society did not come up with these ideas themselves, they came from SOMEWHERE. And there are societies that have lasted since before the Greeks that do believe in murder and deciet. They haven't broken from the stone age, granted, but they have survived and thrived. So where did society learn this? And I keep hearing about places on this site, but I only have about half an hour once a week to be on the internet, could someone help me out with this search and give me links to their fave blogs, forum discussions or sites? I hate to ask this much but I really do appreciate the help.
I was asked to write the paper by my mentor. I DO know why I believe, it's just not something that is easy to put into words or write a paper on. I'm just looking for meat.
Did you read this?
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/5431
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
Try here.
An especially good article here.
I'd also point you to Dr. Richard Dawkins' book "The God Delusion". It has all sorts of goodness in it, and you can read it while not on the internet.
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SWEET! Thanks so much!