Another Atheist finally on-line

DoubtingThomas
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Another Atheist finally on-line

A quick introduction, then I will post a thread for the Missouri natives out there. The Missouri Legislature is trying to “Reaffirm Missourians’ Religious Freedoms.” That is, when prayer is allowed in public schools by amending the State Constitution. The second time in a year they have tried.

I am a disabled, badly educated, Cantankerous Curmudgeon who is pushing hard against the 60 mark. Turned Atheist around 1963. Having to read the Bible in a Confirmation Class for teenagers at a Protestant Church turned off the switch on my religious beliefs. All I saw in The Good Book was a very confusing Fairy Tale. Have become amazed, and grateful, at the number of people who have spent so much time and effort showing the fallacy of the Bible.

My anti-religion feelings kicked in during a tour in the Military. Took 4 attempts to have my religious preference of “None” put on my dog-tags. Since I was looking at a vacation in Viet Nam, no way was I going to be tagged a Christian. Orders changed at last minute for Korea.

Ending up in Alcoholics Anonymous almost 20 years ago increased my distaste for any form of religion. I played their game for a couple years of reading the prayers and stuff, but never accepted their program as the cure for alcoholism. For the most part, all I saw was people getting emotionally sicker, with too many dying because of it. Wishful thinking and false hopes definitely causes more damage than good in the addiction recovery arena.

On slowly regaining my sanity, and asking myself why I had fallen into an agnostic state of mind, I started questioning and criticizing the religious aspects of the program. Over time, I developed the knack of annoying the fundies and AA True Believers by asking them questions they did not want to think about. When someone whines that their prayers were not being answered, I hit them with “Maybe you should look for a different god” or “When you finish praying, get off your knees and do something constructive, then you life will change.” Friends I lost. Self-esteem and self-preservation I gained. For them, I was trying to take away their crutch and security blanket.

I am back to living in an area I have never liked due to the narrow minded, bigoted, attitudes. Moved here a year ago as housing is cheaper and it is close to the family Cemetery. (Lived in California for many years before returning to Missouri.) This Bible Belt town sits in the middle of the Meth capital of the U.S. All fine, upstanding, God fearing, Bible reading, gun tot’n, Good Old Boys. (Excuse me while I puke.) There are good, sane people around here. Too bad they are the minority and mostly xtians.

I seem to have pissed off the neighbors I have talked with. After a few minutes, they invited me to come to their church. That led into short and long discussions explaining why I said “Sorry, but I am Atheist and part Buddhist.” (Only Meditation since the early 1980s and practice of the Eightfold Path for living since 1999.)

I have not read the Harris, Dawkins, etc. books, but mostly agree with them from their debates and videos. The City library had a copy of “Letter to a Christian Nation”, but it disappeared. No record of it in their catalog since then. But they have all the xtian fantasy books, including a recent translation of the Qu’ran and books supporting Mohammad. I keep putting off going to the Board meeting and questioning why that is so. It looks like they are practicing censorship.

While reading and watching the videos on the RRS, Dawkins’ and other sites, I had a couple “oh, oh” moments. Those moments when a bad feeling pops up intensely because something is missing from the topic. It took a few days of more reading and thinking to figure out why I had them. The questions I need to ask are too long to pose here, so as time allows. . Eye-wink (I will not be pulling the tricks some theists pull on this site.) I don’t have the answer to them. Only suppositions based on life experience and wonder if others have considered the implications. These dive heavily into human nature and not directly related to religion.

With all the crap that is going on in the world, I am grateful that I do not have very many years of breathing left. (People have been saying that, for what, 100k years?) As other people have stated, we have grown more intelligent, but have not grown emotionally. I don’t see this changing much, in a good direction, as the dysfunctional, ignorant, power hungry adults are in charge and the children, as a group, can not be educated to be rational thinking persons.

I fear that it will take the U.S. living under a Christian Theocratic government for a couple generations before the middle 60% to 80% of the population (the gullible, don’t cares, don’t make waves group) get the guts to stand up against all religions. Europe still has a societal memory of religious suppression. Japan has a totally different social mindset. The U.S. has no experience, nor memory, like them.

I hope the current push to enlighten people about their religions keeps growing and our future changes direction. It is the only hope the children and grand-children have for a more stable world.


BGH
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Welcome, from a fellow

Welcome, from a fellow Missourian. You state you are badly educated but from reading your post you certainly do not come across that way.


deludedgod
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What an incredible story! I

What an incredible story! I concur with BGH completely. You have some truly remarkable experiences in life, your tale was truly inspirational! Welcome to the forum!

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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aiia
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Hey DoubtingThomas Great

Hey DoubtingThomas

Great intro!

Welcome to rationality 


pariahjane
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Wow.  That is a great

Wow.  That is a great intro.  I look forward to reading more of your posts.


djneibarger
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welcome, DoubtingThomas!

welcome, DoubtingThomas! you're going to like it, here! everyone here is really great!

 


Roisin Dubh
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Welcome! Wow, another

Welcome!

Wow, another Missourian?  Aren't there quite a few of you here now?  I wish Illinois were as well-represented! 

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


American Atheist
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Welcome!

Welcome!Cool


Susan
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Our new friend

Our new friend DoubtingThomas!  Welcome from another Missourian!!!

DoubtingThomas wrote:
This Bible Belt town sits in the middle of the Meth capital of the U.S.

 I suspect you're in the town that's also headquarters to the RLDS church.  You know, that really big building in what they call the town square.  Smile

Hell, we kicked the Mormons out and ended up with the RLDS anyway. 

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NinjaTux
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Welcome... I think

Welcome...

I think bible-belt atheists develop into very interesting people b/c of our rather strnage "baptism" of fire...no pun intended...Whenever you get around to it I'd like to hear what the Oh Oh moments were...

No Gods, Know Peace.


DoubtingThomas
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Thanks for the warm

Thanks for the warm welcomes. Had to lock my ego in the closet after reading them.

Without a spell checker, my writings resemble what a 5th grader would do. Almost flunked out of High School and only one semister of basic writing in Jr. college. Was 10 years between the two. Learning via the School of Hard Knocks has its drawbacks. No one to critique or critisize my mistakes and misconceptions.

Sorry about the oversized font on my first post. Did a copy/paste from MS Word. Could not figure out how to reduce the size. I read through the BBCode Guide and will do it again. And use a smaller font in Word.

 

Question: Would it be better to send the information about the Missouri Legislature amendment and the other questions I have to a Team Member instead of just starting a new thread?? To let you review them for usefullness before posting on the forum.

Some times I see questions about people's statements and activities that others either do not see or stop to think about. A side affect from being a (ex)computer programmer/analyst/designer (before PCs became popular).

 

After I sent my intro post this morning, I had an hour long, very friendly conversation with an employee at the hospital about religion. She made the mistake of telling me to pray about my health problems. My polite response of "I am not religious" brought a long list of questions from her. All honest, out of curiosity. She had never meet nor talked with an atheist around here and wanted to. This shocked me to no end. Not the standard response around here.

Answering her questions clearly and factually on why I was atheist, about death, the soul/consciousness, prayer vs meditation, and other standard questions, gave my brain a real workout. When she claimed total belief in god, I threw her a curve ball. I asked "Would you support a politician who is narcissistic, homicidal, genicidal, demand your complete submission or face death, (plus a few other traits I picked up from the RRS)?" She said no. "I just described Kim Jung Il, Stalin, Mao, all Muslim governments, and George Bush". She agreed. "I also just described the personality of the god of the Bible!!" Her face went blank. I expected nasty comments to be returned. But she said nothing, just stared into space. I politely suggested she read the Bible for verfication.

She claimed to be a Christian, prayed every night at bedtime, accepted Jesus and the Bible, but had only read a very small portion of the Bible. (What????) She never went to Church. Except for the social aspect, she dislikes what churches do. I explained the difference between a "Christian" and a "Deist". She now thinks she is a Deist! A step in the right direction, at least.

I gave her the website addresses for RRS and Richard Dawkins, and my email address. Suggested she read the articles, the atheist/theist debates, and the video links. Then let me know what she thought about them. AND to read the bible from cover to cover. I wonder which direction her religious beliefs will lean in couple weeks.

That discussion made my day!! I was in a really rotten mood when I went to the hospital. Sorry about the length of this. My adrenaline level is still high.

Thanks folks, for all of your valuable information. I could not have pulled this off without some of it.

"What the world needs is an enema." Jack Nicholson, "Batman"


Susan
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Sure, go ahead and start a

Sure, go ahead and start a thread about the Missouri legislature.


GlamourKat
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Welcome to the forums! I

Welcome to the forums! I really enjoyed your post!

 And if you feel bad about you(eloquent) first post, go read some of the "YOU Respond" mailbag threads.

You'll feel better FOR SURE.

Wink


DoubtingThomas
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Susan: I just checked the

Susan:

I just checked the RLDS website for their churches here. Only one about 10 miles away in the next county.That town is 1/3 the size of this one. Quess the locals chased them away. Amazed at the massive number of them still around K.C., expecially in Independence and Blue Springs area.

The 7th Day Advantist are the biggest whack-jobs in this county. The Mormons and JWs keep a low profile. The SDA held a 5 day seminar and lectures last Fall on the Apocalypse in the City Civic Center. They had full page flyers in the newpaper every day. Two church groups hold services in the CC every Sunday with odd groups during the week. A new Missionary started up there a couple weeks ago. I keep wondering what the City charges them for rent. Imagine the hell that could be raised if little or no rent charged!! The CC was built by tax dollars and partly run by a branch of the Mo. State U.

During the month I was getting ready to leave L.A., a news article came out about the meth production and use. Central and Southern Missouri had the highest busts for manufactoring and selling in the country. This town sits in the middle of the map that showed bust locations. Is due to the isolated homes in the Ozarks. Two weeks ago, a 21 year old woman was busted for possesson at the street corner two houses from me. This new, small, subdivison is homes from $100k up.

Five Middle School students were busted this week for marjawana (not sp err) possesson. A large front page article in the local rag. Guess they were getting their "higher" education. Cool

Fun times for everyone here.

NinjaTux:

Thinking back, I don't remember much hassle with the xtians in my early years. That was in the old German/Italian neighborhood in south St. Louis. It seemed people went to church on Sunday and kept their religion to their self. It seems, now, that everyone assumed everyone else was religious and never asked.

Since I didn't know any better at the time, I just accepted that was the way the world was. Once I left the church, I had no qualms of answering anyone that I did not go to church if they asked. Don't remember getting any flack. But the question was only asked about every 5 years or so.

The kids who went to the Catholic Church school received the emotional and physical abuse. When they talked about what went on in school, we public school kids could only go "Whoa!! Why do put up with that?"

"What the world needs is an enema." Jack Nicholson, "Batman"


NinjaTux
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DoubtingThomas

DoubtingThomas wrote:

NinjaTux:

Thinking back, I don't remember much hassle with the xtians in my early years. That was in the old German/Italian neighborhood in south St. Louis. It seemed people went to church on Sunday and kept their religion to their self. It seems, now, that everyone assumed everyone else was religious and never asked.

  I guess it's a tennessee thing, b/c even when I was in the church I would regulary get into debates/discussions with friends/peers about religion, and most of them believed that everyone else was going to hell. 
Quote:

Since I didn't know any better at the time, I just accepted that was the way the world was. Once I left the church, I had no qualms of answering anyone that I did not go to church if they asked. Don't remember getting any flack. But the question was only asked about every 5 years or so.

hhhmmm...southerners that aren't nosing into eveyone else's business....something's fishy here...
Quote:

The kids who went to the Catholic Church school received the emotional and physical abuse. When they talked about what went on in school, we public school kids could only go "Whoa!! Why do put up with that?"

  Oddly enough the wildest kids I knew growing up all went to the catholic or private christian schools.  Nashville is kind of a funny town though since just about everyone who lives here is from somewhere else.  We end up with some rather odd social interactions.  I can't tell you how many times I got called a Yankee growing up b/c I didn't have an accent.  I finally just started telling everyone "Look, Wyoming (where I was born) didn't exist as a state during your 'War of Northern Agression' so shut up."  They still called me a Yankee....

No Gods, Know Peace.


Susan
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DoubtingThomas wrote:

DoubtingThomas wrote:

That was in the old German/Italian neighborhood in south St. Louis.

The Hill????  I love The Hill in St. Louis!  Best Italian food I've ever had. 

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DoubtingThomas
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Susan wrote: The Hill????

Susan wrote:
The Hill???? I love The Hill in St. Louis! Best Italian food I've ever had.

Yep, sort of. I was close to Anheisher-Bush. That area lost its status as part of The Hill during the early 1960s when the old Germans and Italians died off or moved away when they built I-55 through the neighborhood.

Once we could drive, a group of us would go on weekends to the "true" section for hand-made pizza. The best there is.

In grade school, before the I-55, one of my close friends was second generation Italian. His parents barely spoke English. They made their own sausage and other specality foods for their neighborhood market.

 

"What the world needs is an enema." Jack Nicholson, "Batman"


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DoubtingThomas

DoubtingThomas wrote:

Susan wrote:
The Hill???? I love The Hill in St. Louis! Best Italian food I've ever had.

Yep, sort of. I was close to Anheisher-Bush. That area lost its status as part of The Hill during the early 1960s when the old Germans and Italians died off or moved away when they built I-55 through the neighborhood.

Once we could drive, a group of us would go on weekends to the "true" section for hand-made pizza. The best there is.

In grade school, before the I-55, one of my close friends was second generation Italian. His parents barely spoke English. They made their own sausage and other specality foods for their neighborhood market.

 

Oh, I must chime in... I had an Amighetti's special today for lunch!

Mmmmmmm, I love the food on The Hill. 


DoubtingThomas
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GlamourKat wrote: And if

GlamourKat wrote:
And if you feel bad about you(eloquent) first post, go read some of the "YOU Respond" mailbag threads.

You'll feel better FOR SURE.

I read a few from there. Made me wonder what school they went to. I was not much better 30 years ago. Reading and writing is like other skills; use it or lose it. But, one has to make the effort to work at improving. Wink


NinjaTux wrote:
I guess it's a tennessee thing, b/c even when I was in the church I would regulary get into debates/discussions with friends/peers about religion, and most of them believed that everyone else was going to hell.

My parents and friend's parents were the same type: dysfunction drunks. Their normal conversations were arguing and shouting about stupid stuff. Religion was the farthest thing from their minds. That enviornment was just a destructive emotionally as the xian homes. The "good" religious kids did not associate with us.

NinjaTux wrote:
hhhmmm...southerners that aren't nosing into eveyone else's business....something's fishy here...

Missourians don't consider theirselves "southerners". But, they are as nosy as anybody. I use to dread visiting family members at their homes. When not all together, like at a picnic, they did nothing but gossip about the rest of the family. When I moved back to Mo. this time, I only visited 3 relatives (out of about 15 still living) one time. When they started their gossip bull, I forced the topic to change. One time, I just walked out.

NinjaTux wrote:
I can't tell you how many times I got called a Yankee growing up b/c I didn't have an accent.

The usual Missouri Ozark's native accent can be considered "Hillbilly". 40 years ago, if people from the Ozarks thru Georgia were put in the same room, they will not have been able to understand each other. That has changed due to all the migration. Ever hear a Vietnamese immigrant with a heavy Texan AND Viet Nam accent? That is an extremely hard thing to not laugh about. Not in a demeaning why, just out of place funny.

Mom lost her accent after she left the Ozarks. But her siblings never have. I still have to keep from laughing at their terminology. After working with people from Briton, Australia, and all areas of the U.S., and dating Chinese and Korean immigrants, I enjoy the various accents.

I lost my partial Hillbilly accent in my late teens. On moving back here, I got a lot of "If you're a native Missourian, how come ya don't have an accent?" (Their verbiage.)

 

"What the world needs is an enema." Jack Nicholson, "Batman"


NinjaTux
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DoubtingThomas wrote: I

DoubtingThomas wrote:

I lost my partial Hillbilly accent in my late teens. On moving back here, I got a lot of "If you're a native Missourian, how come ya don't have an accent?" (Their verbiage.)

I think it's cool, b/c now whenever I read your post I read it with this kinda soften hillbilly accent...It makes you sound kinda worldly oddly enough (you get the voice of one of my hs teachers who went around the world with the Army...he was a very cool guy with more stories than you could shake a stick at).  Well, I'll let you get to your other thread....Welcome again. 

No Gods, Know Peace.